A-zombie,
I remain unconvinced that AIDA doesn't have some measure of control. It just doesn't feel right to me she's letting all this play out without some reason behind it. I mean other than lazy writing.
That and I want Daisy to go full Neo. So...
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I would expect that the meet-up in the Matrix between five SHIELD agents and Radcliff will be instructive.
Indeed it was. I am not sure that the Radcliff we encountered was the actual intelligence. He seemed to be the same sort of shell that an the Radcliff LMD in the real world.
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Can Jemma go full Neo instead?
First of all, I'm sick of everything being about Daisy... and secondly Jemma and Aida fighting for control of Fitz's soul sounds awesome to me.
Phantom,
Fine! But let's remember Jemma has no expertise in computers so... It might go poorly for her.
Chris,
I think it was Radcliff but one that realize how bad things were when he couldn't leave the island paradise...
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Madam Hydra seemed very worried when Radcliffe was trying to get Fitz to remember the real world.
To me that implies that such efforts COULD work. Sure, she could then just physically blank everyone's memory again and start over (as she had to many times while perfecting the technology with May), but she seems to be invested in the relationship she has manufactured with Fitz... which, I'd think, would be the obvious way to break him out of it... point out that he has essentially become a lonely robot's brainwashed puppet. The whole world has been constructed (and reconstructed as need be) so that he has no choice but to think that he loves her.
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New improved framework Fitz theory:
If we're speculating that project Looking Glass might allow a framework consciousness to move into a real world LMD body and that might allow Ward to exist again in the real world, the same could also apply to Zola.
Joel,
I think that the problem with the Zola theory is that he's already expired BEFORE it was ever built. At least that's my reading of the history of the Framework. So I doubt seriously that Arnim Zola is still around.
Also like Kahnaya said, it appears that Fitz is still there. Just not quite there.
I agree with Aiken that there are probably TWO versions of AIDA in this world. Whether or not they are independent of each other is...unclear.
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I don't think there's ever been confirmation that Zola died though - he could have escaped the bunker into the "wild" and been a lurker ever since.
And he could be "riding" the Fitz construct with the real Fitz occasionally poking through while fighting the Zola control.
Sounds like we'll find out what's really going on with Fitz on Tuesday one way or another.
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Joel,
I agree that we'll find out about Fitz comes Tuesday. However I always thought that Zola's system was a closed system. Mostly because he didn't want anyone to notice him. This was a good way to do that.
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Joel,
I agree that we'll find out about Fitz comes Tuesday. However I always thought that Zola's system was a closed system. Mostly because he didn't want anyone to notice him. This was a good way to do that.
It's been a while since I watched Winter Soldier, but I thought that when Cap and BW discovered his system they connected it somehow to download or transfer data from it, thus freeing him to skedaddle just before the missile hit.
Nope. They just uploaded a data stick that I'm aware of. Nothing that allowed him access to 'jump systems" that I'm aware of.
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I don't think they would bring Armin Zola in this way, if only because it cheapens the drama if Fitz is really Zola in the simulation, and undercuts Madame Hydra.
I don't think they would bring Armin Zola in this way, if only because it cheapens the drama if Fitz is really Zola in the simulation, and undercuts Madame Hydra.
Agreed... and it also would be completely from left field. I mean, they DO tie the movies in with SHIELD on occasion, but for the big twist to be the guy in the computer who hasn't even been referenced in three years? Not impossible... but it would be pretty poor storytelling if there weren't just a few hints or foreshadowing or something.
As for the closed system... Yeah, Zola was in the hidden room in the hidden base with giant tubes and tapes and such... He had an added on USB drive, but he really seemed like an outdated system. While the top of the technology of the Kennedy era... I'm not even sure it/he could hook up to the internet :D
Phantom,
I doubt it even had Wi-Fi. ;)
MMC,
I dunno about cheapens to add Zola, but I do agree to make that Fitz is...more than a little silly.
Dose raise an odd question
Whould a Framework Zola, recognize that it was a construct inside of a construct? Would that knowledge allow it to self evolve into the Framework as a physical entity?
Grey,
It might. I mean it's not beyond the realm of possibility. Especially since this created by the Darkhold...sort of.
....
...
..
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Is there a virtual Darkhold in the Framework?
Grey,
I wouldn't put it past them. I keep thinking each Darkhold is like linked to other versions of itself. But I could be wrong...
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I am reminded of Star Trek: The Next Generation's episode "Ship in a Bottle," and how the editors blew a beautiful opportunity at the end.
Moriarty has taken over the Enterprise D, with complete control, and then we back out and discover that he's only in a simulation. Picard, Riker (I think?), and Data are discussing the options and someone suggests that they are themselves only a simulation. Riker and Picard laugh and leave the room. Data considers and then calls out "Computer. End program." Nothing happens, Data shrugs, and leaves the room.
I dearly wish they had gone to hard black-out right after Data's command.
Chris,
That would have been pretty interesting, no question.
Set,
Well there is that possibility. I mean for all we know, MCU is just some simulation that Tony Stark ran based on removing some key elements (mutants for starters) from 616. :)
So I think they are working right way to ruin some of the characters (mostly fitz) Some people will not forgive him for his actions. The way she is doing it its not like she is even forcing his hand that much or even lying to him that much. I really don't care for the direction this half of the season has been going. I'd much rather go back to the first half and mess around with the supernatural and ghost rider then do this weird matrix thing.
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Feros,
Well we've yet to see how Mack turns out... I mean he might be happier with his kid and all.
Plus evil Fitz might be just "Fitz without a filter" that is Gemma obviously.
Scientist - conscience = Scary SOB.
So I think they are working right way to ruin some of the characters (mostly fitz) Some people will not forgive him for his actions. The way she is doing it its not like she is even forcing his hand that much or even lying to him that much. I really don't care for the direction this half of the season has been going. I'd much rather go back to the first half and mess around with the supernatural and ghost rider then do this weird matrix thing.
I'm the opposite. I like the character of Ghost Rider, but the plot arc for those episodes was kind of weak, and suffered from a weak villain. AoS IMHO works best when paired with villains like Hydra.
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So I think they are working right way to ruin some of the characters (mostly fitz) Some people will not forgive him for his actions.
I feel like whoever is writing for Agents of SHIELD likes to roller-skate uphill, at times. In the beginning of the show, the internet pretty much hated Ward, Skye and Fitz. (Fitz so much that the show runner defended the actor at one point.) And the show kept on using all of them, and even centering the plots around them, in the cases of Ward and Skye/Daisy.
Now that Fitz finally seems to have become accepted, mainly through his interactions with Simmons, IMO, they are throwing cold water on that, for what seems to be the sheer contrariness of it all.
(They even flirted with the rampant popularity of Simmons, by having her be all anti-Inhuman for a bit after the death of Agent Triplett.)
I don't mind it so much, I kind of miss b!+@+y Fitz of yesteryear, over schmoopy all-about-Simmons Fitz of this past season. He may have been a bit of a bitter pill at times, but he felt more 'real.'
I'm not 100% on this, but I think I prefer the 'roller skating uphill' and sticking to their guns, to a show's writers listening too much to the audience / internet / fanbase and focusing on whoever they find most interesting / sexy / controversial and letting the inmates run the asylum, as it were.
I have no idea about them crapping on characters after they get popular.
But I do think we're seeing a shift from Fitz we got to enjoy to Fitz we feel very differently about.
As for the whole "Is the first half better than the second half?" I agree with MMC that having HYDRA instead of the Watchdogs as villains makes more sense. Mostly because HYDRA has been the eternal foe of SHIELD for much of its existence. So while I loved Robbie, his Ghost Rider and the near magic stuff, this shift to me was coming the moment we KNEW that LMDs were going to play a role in this season. This is just that side coming to pass.
I don't think it was the Simmons relationship that endeared people to Fitz, it was the amazing first half of Season two, where Fitz was struggling in his recovery. That in my mind transitioned Fitz to a MVP status.
My only concern about the present "evil doctor" Fitz is that they will use it as an excuse to add relationship drama to the Fitz-Simmons relationship. I like that they are, despite how utterly weird their lives have been, a fairly normal supportive couple.
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OK, I've thought about this and just noticed something—the only person to kill what was a real world person hooked up to the Framework was another person hooked up to the Framework. None of the Framework AIs have killed any of the people put into the virtual world. Beaten them up, yes, but not killed.
Since these AIs are products of Aida's programming, it seems logical they have the restraints that Radcliffe placed on her. So to kill these interlopers to her "paradise," she would need a surrogate that could circumvent her baseline program. Fitz then becomes more that her lover in the sim...he becomes her hit man. So she would need him callous and vicious to use him this way.
Just a thought. :)
Mm! That is an interesting concept Feros!
Greenie,
Well that was kind of a loophole exception. Maybe.
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OK, I've thought about this and just noticed something—the only person to kill what was a real world person hooked up to the Framework was another person hooked up to the Framework. None of the Framework AIs have killed any of the people put into the virtual world. Beaten them up, yes, but not killed.
Since these AIs are products of Aida's programming, it seems logical they have the restraints that Radcliffe placed on her. So to kill these interlopers to her "paradise," she would need a surrogate that could circumvent her baseline program. Fitz then becomes more that her lover in the sim...he becomes her hit man. So she would need him callous and vicious to use him this way.
Just a thought. :)
I like this theory, but I would be far far far more worried about May than Fitz, who is also pretty deep in Hydra indoctrination...
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I like this theory, but I would be far far far more worried about May than Fitz, who is also pretty deep in Hydra indoctrination...
Also much more likely to go for the quick efficient kill, while this version of Fitz seems very much like the sort of cat that likes to play with it's food.
This version of May is, shockingly, even *more* likely to go for the quick and decisive kill, given her entire life here hinging around failing to do that once, and it ending disastrously.
CB,
That's my thinking. Once she finds out how it might have turned out, I think she might feel differently about lots of things. But we'll see.
The following is spoilered for those who have yet to see tonight's episode. Please do not read if you have not seen the episode. It is too good to see with foreknowledge. It won't ruin it, but the impact will be greatly lessened:
That was amazing! Fitz is like he is because his regret was not having a good relationship with his father. Turns out, his mother was the person who made Fitz the way he is and being raised by "Dear Old Dad" is what turned him into something of a heartless a$%hat. His mother was still involved so his conscience is there a little bit, but not as strong as the masculine bulls3!@#t he had been given.
Also, in support of my theory, it's Fitz who gives the order to kill Mace, NOT Madame Hydra even though she is right there and following the situation closely.
TRIP! Yes, we have Ward back (good Ward, bonus) and now Trip! I take back what I said about being done with the Framework. Now I almost want them to take down Hydra in the Framework and then superimpose it in some fashion on the MCU. I figured the way they were talking we would recognize the "inside man," but I never expected Trip! Whoot!
Mace going down saving people's lives and putting himself in that position to save the life of one kid he doesn't even know. The Patriot's story started weak but ended with an example of what being a superhero is supposed to be about. Made me love the character and not want him to go. Absolutely amazing.
The attempted bribery scene with Aida and Daisy was cool. Aida still doesn't understand humans very well as while Daisy might be tempted with a gilded cage lie, she wouldn't take the bait. Watching Daisy trying to get snippets of info from the discussion was well handled. What is Aida's motivation? To have everything people have. Well done, Agent Johnson.
We have a back door! Radcliffe and Daisy talking in the holding cells was great. They obviously left them connected so that torturing one victim would unnerve another, as we saw (actually heard) in the last episode. And now Daisy knows how to get them out. If only she had some power to back it up...
May still has a thing for kids. After she realizes Mace is a true hero and Hydra was torturing kids, and Coulson says instinctively, "Snap out of it, May!" everything changes for her. Does she remember? No. But what does she do? Final shot of the looks between her and Daisy...made my week.
This folks is Agents of SHIELD at its best, IMHO!
Once more, WOW...
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I can't wait for this story arc to end.
Too much fun for you Dragon?
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That last scene, oh man Pretty much a HELLS YEAH! from me
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That was cool-ish......
I did not like losing Mace, but he went out with style. Now I wonder if, in the real world, they're going to start injecting May with the strength enhancer.
So...Fitz raised by dad is a (near) complete douchebag. There were still some bits of Good Fitz leaking through, but those were quickly drowned out by the a&#*!%~. And now I guess we just have to wait and see what happens when Pappa Fitz comes along in the real world.
So now Daisy virtually has her powers? That's weird. But at least May seems to have "snapped out of it", thanks to Coulson. It took her long enough.
Last night's episode was great.
That was cool-ish......
** spoiler omitted **
They did kind of prelude Daisy way back when she and Coulson were sparing in the old version of the Framework, so we knew it was possible for her.
Gonna be an unpleasant surprise for Dr. Fitz and Madam H.
Plus I just love that it was May who did it for her.
Hell yes, Go May, Fight da Powa!
That was a truly great AoS episode
One of the things that really resonated with me was Ward apologizing for what RealWard did. Which is pretty much the polar opposite of what RealWard would do, since throughout his run he pretty much just blamed everyone else for his actions. Goes a long way to showing how different this version is.
I knew it was Trip when they mentioned being caught with an old time spy watch.
Also...the Hydra scientist who was Simmon's coworker from her time infiltrating Hydra was the one who gave May the strength formula. And Bakshi is back next week as well.
It's also a bit fitting that Patriot died holding up a collapsing building. Sort of echoes back to the Geneva attack, where he incorrectly got credit for helping people.
...
Mostly I'm just amazed at Radcliffe and Aida's knowledge. They created perfect digital avatars of them including complete personality and history , even of people they don't know. or at least we are assuming they do. Now will the gang keep it running when they get out because they don't feel like killing an entire planet, or will they excuse themselves with 'they're only programs'?
Yeah, this reeks of the Darkhold. It circumvents the normal limitations of what is possible, allowing Aida to recreate AI equivalent people with incredible detail and accuracy even without having access to every nuance.