Agents of Shield


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memorax wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:


You sprinkle hints at earlier episodes that Simmons might be inclined to react that way. As it sits, Simmons has been exposed to super powers many times and has even very nearly died from contact with alien tech and she never leaned towards developing mutantophobia even a little bit. That makes it seems a little bit contrived that her stance now changed by events that were not really different in magnitude, but merely in results.

Seconded.

When Simmons tried to kill herself would have been a great opprtunity to show or at least have the character develop mutantphobia. Instead as long as bad stuff happened to strangers. She was good. Once someone who she was close to and had feelings for died. Then the mutantphobia suddenly is part of her character. Mind you in a world where there is people with powers both mutant and non-mutant. Targeting mutants makes little sense imo. Human Torch, Black Panther and Iceman. The first two get a free pass on racism. Iceman gets persecuted. It's not like mutants and non-mutants have a tattoo on their forehead that make them stand out. If Marvel really wanted to show racism properly then the fear would not be towards Inhumans and/or mutants. It would be against everyone and anyone who had superpowers mutant or not.

Developing a different opinion when something happens to you instead of a stranger is normal behavior. People aren't predictable. Not to mention that her new-found fear doesn't seem to be limited to just mutants, but to everyone with enhanced abilities. Sure, she is hypocritical, but that is normal human behavior.

edit: they aren't treating the show like the comics where only mutants get discriminated against.


I think there is SOMETHING about the way the Kree guy stated 'yeah, we put these people here as weapons to destroy and conquer...

in the comics, they are just 'people'... but here? Yeah, they have a legitmate claim as WMD.

Prove that a COUPLE of these inhumans can fight the programing and be peaceful members of society, then I'm sure she'll calm down. However when they are ALL superdangerous... the racism is understandable


memorax wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:


You sprinkle hints at earlier episodes that Simmons might be inclined to react that way. As it sits, Simmons has been exposed to super powers many times and has even very nearly died from contact with alien tech and she never leaned towards developing mutantophobia even a little bit. That makes it seems a little bit contrived that her stance now changed by events that were not really different in magnitude, but merely in results.

Seconded.

When Simmons tried to kill herself would have been a great opprtunity to show or at least have the character develop mutantphobia. Instead as long as bad stuff happened to strangers. She was good. Once someone who she was close to and had feelings for died.

Also, I think there is a legitimate double standard between things happening to ordinary strangers and her friends.

When bad things happen to ordinary people who don't know what they are dealing with or how to handle it... bad things happen. It sucks, but with training or knowledge they could have been better off.

When bad things happen to SHIELD agents who specialize in dealing with the unexplained, and nobody else on earth is better trained or prepared... and they STILL can't come out alive?? Then yeah... maybe some things ARE too dangerous to run free ;)

The Exchange

phantom1592 wrote:
memorax wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:


You sprinkle hints at earlier episodes that Simmons might be inclined to react that way. As it sits, Simmons has been exposed to super powers many times and has even very nearly died from contact with alien tech and she never leaned towards developing mutantophobia even a little bit. That makes it seems a little bit contrived that her stance now changed by events that were not really different in magnitude, but merely in results.

Seconded.

When Simmons tried to kill herself would have been a great opprtunity to show or at least have the character develop mutantphobia. Instead as long as bad stuff happened to strangers. She was good. Once someone who she was close to and had feelings for died.

Also, I think there is a legitimate double standard between things happening to ordinary strangers and her friends.

When bad things happen to ordinary people who don't know what they are dealing with or how to handle it... bad things happen. It sucks, but with training or knowledge they could have been better off.

When bad things happen to SHIELD agents who specialize in dealing with the unexplained, and nobody else on earth is better trained or prepared... and they STILL can't come out alive?? Then yeah... maybe some things ARE too dangerous to run free ;)

I actually disagree. As good as SHIELD agents might be, when dealing with the unexplained, unexpected things will happen. Agents die, and that's a risk that all of them should understand. It is, ultimately, unavoidable.

For this reason, I find that the way the characters in the show handle death to be badly written. From that episode mid season 1 that Sky was dying, up to Tripps' death, they seem to have a very hard time accepting that fellow soldiers fall in battle. I find this to be a weakness of the show.


Great episode this week, can't wait to see the next one.


Lord Snow wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:
memorax wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:


You sprinkle hints at earlier episodes that Simmons might be inclined to react that way. As it sits, Simmons has been exposed to super powers many times and has even very nearly died from contact with alien tech and she never leaned towards developing mutantophobia even a little bit. That makes it seems a little bit contrived that her stance now changed by events that were not really different in magnitude, but merely in results.

Seconded.

When Simmons tried to kill herself would have been a great opprtunity to show or at least have the character develop mutantphobia. Instead as long as bad stuff happened to strangers. She was good. Once someone who she was close to and had feelings for died.

Also, I think there is a legitimate double standard between things happening to ordinary strangers and her friends.

When bad things happen to ordinary people who don't know what they are dealing with or how to handle it... bad things happen. It sucks, but with training or knowledge they could have been better off.

When bad things happen to SHIELD agents who specialize in dealing with the unexplained, and nobody else on earth is better trained or prepared... and they STILL can't come out alive?? Then yeah... maybe some things ARE too dangerous to run free ;)

I actually disagree. As good as SHIELD agents might be, when dealing with the unexplained, unexpected things will happen. Agents die, and that's a risk that all of them should understand. It is, ultimately, unavoidable.

For this reason, I find that the way the characters in the show handle death to be badly written. From that episode mid season 1 that Sky was dying, up to Tripps' death, they seem to have a very hard time accepting that fellow soldiers fall in battle. I find this to be a weakness of the show.

But mostly the people who have a hard time with it started as non-combatants. Also, with Sky, she is a civilian that they dragged into it. That is very different from a fellow soldier who signed up. A lot of the conflict the first season is driven by them not being able to reconcile in their minds that Sky wants to be there and involved as much as any other person.

Not to mention a lot of soldiers have a hard time dealing with casualties within their squad.

Sovereign Court

I only caught the last 10min of the show. Based on that, cool, Daisy Jones can blast stuff real good. Next. I don't think I need to see the rest. Do I?


Well I enjoyed the episode, which gave us the origin story for Other Shield, Mack was likable, Fitz and Simmons actually bonded a bit, Lucy Lawless returned, We got to hear more about Skye's powers, and we got to see a May and Bobbi fight. So um....yes?


Caineach wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:


I actually disagree. As good as SHIELD agents might be, when dealing with the unexplained, unexpected things will happen. Agents die, and that's a risk that all of them should understand. It is, ultimately, unavoidable.

For this reason, I find that the way the characters in the show handle death to be badly written. From that episode mid season 1 that Sky was dying, up to Tripps' death, they seem to have a very hard time accepting that fellow soldiers fall in battle. I find this to be a weakness of the show.

But mostly the people who have a hard time with it started as non-combatants. Also, with Sky, she is a civilian that they...

Another interesting point... Simmons IS a non-combatant. She may be SHIELD... but she was a scientist and specifically called out in the pilot (along with Fitz) as NOT being field certified.

Sitting in a lab figuring out how to make a hover camera doesn't prepare you for the death and dismemberment of friends like Ward, May, and Phil have had...


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
I only caught the last 10min of the show. Based on that, cool, Daisy Jones can blast stuff real good. Next. I don't think I need to see the rest. Do I?

Yes, we get it, you hate the show and exist only to b!&&& about how much you hate it.

Nobody gives a s#~@. Move on.

Sovereign Court

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B!#*~ing about this show is only part of the reason I exist. And a very small part at that. Like throwing expletives and trying to throw your weight around is only *part* of the reason you exist. To say that this is the only reason YOU exist would be over-simplistic and perhaps a gross exaggeration as I have never met you in person and thus cannot form an opinion of your character and sum up your life over discussions about a TV show.


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:rolleyes:

Yes, you got me, I meant that statement entirely literally, and not as an expression of annoyance of how every time the show is mentioned or this thread is updated you swoop in like Superman Superboy Prime to cry about how much you dislike it.

Sovereign Court

So what? I used to love that show, and I hope it picks up. Maybe I'm too old and not really the target market... you're right: maybe it's not the show, and maybe it's me. All I know is it's getting hard to watch when Netflix is a click away with stuff like Spartacus, Peaky Blinders and Littlehammer. Oh and Daredevil on April 10! (the show will not suffer from all the restrictions imposed by network TV)


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Oh and Daredevil on April 10! (the show will not suffer from all the restrictions imposed by network TV)

I doubt Daredevil has a significantly greater budget than AoS, nor do I expect to see tons of super powers/Marvel characters in every episode, with the exception of main cast members.

And while it will be "grittier" than AoS and the movies, I only expect it to be mildly more. It's still in the MCU, so I don't expect much profanity, any nudity, and only slightly more blood than what we see in the movies.

So I think if you dislike AoS, you might very well be dissapointed with Daredevil as well...


MMCJawa wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Oh and Daredevil on April 10! (the show will not suffer from all the restrictions imposed by network TV)

I doubt Daredevil has a significantly greater budget than AoS, nor do I expect to see tons of super powers/Marvel characters in every episode, with the exception of main cast members.

And while it will be "grittier" than AoS and the movies, I only expect it to be mildly more. It's still in the MCU, so I don't expect much profanity, any nudity, and only slightly more blood than what we see in the movies.

So I think if you dislike AoS, you might very well be dissapointed with Daredevil as well...

Which, I truly hope is the case.

honestly the idea of super-gritty/dark/R-rated Daredevil turns my stomach. As a MASSIVE Daredevil fan, I REALLY want to like this. turning it into Spartacus would be SOOOOOO Disappointing. I don't want it any grittier then Winter Soldier was. That was an awesome threshold of Violence and Edge yet still kept things heroic and Marvel Universe Based.

Sovereign Court

Well... the preview on Netflix promises both blood and "questions of morality" which may or may not be answered by your friendly local priest... :)


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Well... the preview on Netflix promises both blood and "questions of morality" which may or may not be answered by your friendly local priest... :)

Both of which were covered in the Affleck movie, and kept to pg13 standards. The director's cut was better... but nor for the extra swearing random-guy-in-bar-3 added to it... It had more character development on the Matt Murdock side and we got to see more Lawyer. THAT is something the Netflix series has the opportunity to do. Stretch out the origin a bit, give us more background, more character... Not just swearing and blood splashs.

Most movies get 2 hours what you can do with 10... Lets make this awesome.

Sovereign Court

I have high hopes for Daredevil due to Charlie Cox mainly. Loved him in Boardwalk Empire. Also partial to Rosario Dawson. A lot. :)

Vincent D'Onofrio ought be a great Kingpin...


Since I have never liked Daredevil, I have no interest in this series besides "dark and gritty" is not an automatic selling point for me.

I would love to see the Power Pack but done has an animated film, considering how much I enjoyed Big Hero 6, I think Disney would make a fun film with that one.

I really love the part were Skye went all "blasty" on the fake shield. I also like the guy with no eyes(Gordon?) and can't wait to see more inhumans and there current home.

Shadow Lodge

Dragon78 wrote:

Since I have never liked Daredevil, I have no interest in this series besides "dark and gritty" is not an automatic selling point for me.

I would love to see the Power Pack but done has an animated film, considering how much I enjoyed Big Hero 6, I think Disney would make a fun film with that one.

I really love the part were Skye went all "blasty" on the fake shield. I also like the guy with no eyes(Gordon?) and can't wait to see more inhumans and there current home.

With you. Gordon really was the standout character in this episode and really stole every scene we got him in. Also so happy to see the British guy returning as a true member of Phil's team.

Like 8 types of excited to see what we get next episode.

Also:
Anyone else thinking we'll see Simmons switch sides to the other Shield here in the next few episodes?

Sovereign Court

Simmons seemed to fare better when she was HYDRA... office bureaucracy, board meetings and all... just sayin'.

Shadow Lodge

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Simmons seemed to fare better when she was HYDRA... office bureaucracy, board meetings and all... just sayin'.

Lol I actually agree. Seeing her warp into this genocidal scientist under SHIELD's employ would be awesome and a welcome change from just seeing them in media res as we've seen them. Like a cross between Mengela and a reverse Magneto. I could just see her standing over an Inhuman like Sky strapped to the table, scalpel in hand staying something like, "I know you are scared but you are sick and dangerous to the rest of us and we need to be safe. Sacrifices must be made..."

Sovereign Court

Yes... then they would roll her out in green HYDRA spandex suit upon graduation. This has potential.

Dark Archive

doc the grey wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Simmons seemed to fare better when she was HYDRA... office bureaucracy, board meetings and all... just sayin'.
Lol I actually agree. Seeing her warp into this genocidal scientist under SHIELD's employ would be awesome and a welcome change from just seeing them in media res as we've seen them. Like a cross between Mengela and a reverse Magneto. I could just see her standing over an Inhuman like Sky strapped to the table, scalpel in hand staying something like, "I know you are scared but you are sick and dangerous to the rest of us and we need to be safe. Sacrifices must be made..."

Simmons as a villain, transitioning from the sweetness and light of her earlier appearances, could indeed be a really interesting twist for that character.

One of the few members of the team who *isn't* based around spying and lying, subterfuge and betrayal, with a dash of punching faces and killing people, turns out to be a bad egg? Funky.

Then again, I do kind of like that Fitz and Simmons are *not* Bruce-Lee-as-James-Bond level badasses, and would like to see at least some agents who aren't exactly ninja.


Othershield is totally in the right. Colson is off his rocker and his brain isn't his. He was compelled to find the city, he probably took to sky so quickly because she's a mut.. inhuman. His brains gone to mush: You can keep him as a field agent but you can't trust him to be at the top.

Of course since colson is the main character, othershield has to be a hydra front, no matter how valid their reasons.

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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Yes... then they would roll her out in green HYDRA spandex suit upon graduation. This has potential.

While Elizabeth Henstridge would certainly ROCK a spandex bodysuit, I doubt that Hydra agents actually dress that way in the Cinematic Universe.


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Lord Fyre wrote:
While Elizabeth Henstridge would certainly ROCK a spandex bodysuit, I doubt that Hydra agents actually dress that way in the Cinematic Universe.

Hey, a person can dream.

She wouldn't have to be HYDRA to go the Mengele route, though. "Good guys" will do all kinds of bad stuff in the name of National Security or whatever. It's very easy to see certain political factions pushing legislation that inhumans are by definition not human and therefore not entitled to any kind of protection under US or international Human Rights laws. Fear-based agendas can get lots of support.

That country is hiding weapons of mass destruction!
That woman *is* a weapon of mass destruction!

We are fully justified in detaining those foreign nationals in an offshore prison without charging them, for an indefinite period of time.
We are fully justified in locking up and experimenting on those non-human creatures who might possibly be some kind of threat at some point in the future, maybe. Think of the children!

See? No HYDRA needed.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Othershield is totally in the right. Colson is off his rocker and his brain isn't his. He was compelled to find the city, he probably took to sky so quickly because she's a mut.. inhuman. His brains gone to mush: You can keep him as a field agent but you can't trust him to be at the top.

Of course since colson is the main character, othershield has to be a hydra front, no matter how valid their reasons.

Unfortunately, the plot direction has made a Peaceful integration of the two groups impossible. Pity.

Spoiler:
I doubt that the "Real Shield" is Hydra, but that doesn't mean that they will be "heroic" in any sense.

Your point is valid though. Phil Colson did "come back wrong, from what Loki (and then Fury) did.

I would have liked the core team being recreated within a larger shield organization. (Coulson, even with the issues you point out, could remain in command.)

But, cooler (and saner) heads need to be a the helm of the larger organization.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Othershield is totally in the right. Colson is off his rocker and his brain isn't his. He was compelled to find the city, he probably took to sky so quickly because she's a mut.. inhuman. His brains gone to mush: You can keep him as a field agent but you can't trust him to be at the top.

Of course since colson is the main character, othershield has to be a hydra front, no matter how valid their reasons.

We haven't seen any evidence yet that his "brain has gone to mush". He was compelled to find the city...and that's the extent of it that's been shown.

Coulson is acting as Coulson always has. He's friendly, and willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, but still sharp as a tack.

The only difference here is the difference in opinion between the two SHIELD factions.

Coulson's faction thinks the secret spy organization should have its secrets, and that, golly gee, human beings shouldn't be killed en masse just because they develop super powers. <--- Brain mush!

Mexican guy's faction think the secret spy organization shouldn't keep secrets. Except for all the secrets they keep (like their very existence, and the spies they have running around. Those don't count, right?) and are right on board with slaughtering people who develop powers. <--- Totally cool dudes.


Simmons is the most likely one to go to the new shield's side. I hope she will not but it just seems that way.

I hope Fitz gets some minor powers like limited psychic abilities or something just to mess with Simmons.

Sovereign Court

Fitz will probably get injected with the same stuff Coulson and Skye got and regenerate his brainzzzzz..

That... and there's also the possibility he will so something with Sky's blood samples and gain powerzzzz of his own.

Dark Archive

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Coming from OtherSHIELD's perspective - sure, Coulson's in control of his faculties now, but how does he know that he hasn't gone dormant again? He's compromised, and you can't have someone that compromised in charge of a spy agency.

We also don't know what they experienced on that boat, but whatever it was, it was bad enough for them to think that killing metahumanity was better than letting them run free. Thoughts? Canon character, kept in captivity? Earth powers, maybe, which would make holding someone in an aircraft carrier at sea a great plan?

I really appreciate that they've done their best to make OtherSHIELD as sympathetic as possible. Currently, they're rivals, not villains, and their opposition to Coulson's SHIELD is really fascinating to watch. They might have overstepped their bounds by firing on Skye, but it all depends on what Colderon's orders were - did EJO's character give him orders to kill Skye (separate from Bobbi's orders), or did he overstep them himself?

Dark Archive

I can see the "Real" SHIELD morphing into becoming SWORD and dealing with alien menaces, while Coulson and his team rebuild SHIELD in their image.

Shadow Lodge

Marik Whiterose wrote:
I can see the "Real" SHIELD morphing into becoming SWORD and dealing with alien menaces, while Coulson and his team rebuild SHIELD in their image.

That's what I keep hearing people predict but I'm seeing the thing as something that will all fall apart dinner or later. The whole secret organization that wants to keep less secrets but still keep secrets thing sounds much more like a powder keg ready to detonate on them the minute one of the heads decides he/she wants to do something the others disagree with and figures out that if he just hides his plans he can go about unmolested. Especially considering that the one thing they really just seem to agree on is they don't want to work for Coulson.

I'm waiting for them to get the base and start to see the leaders come to blows as they each undercut one another to be the new head of SHIELD. I mean hell they are already disagreeing on what to even do with Coulson once they depose him.


Rynjin wrote:

We haven't seen any evidence yet that his "brain has gone to mush". He was compelled to find the city...and that's the extent of it that's been shown.

He spent months going crazy and forced to pick up a knife and carve it in circles into the wall in weird alien writing. Most of the people that have undergone his procedure when crazy, and one of them started carving the symbols in PEOPLE. He HAD to do whatever the dead aliend wanted him to do. What happens if something ELSE the alien wanted him to do comes up?

I wouldn't trust the guy with safety scissors and a kindergarten class room, much less the nuclear launch codes.

Quote:
The only difference here is the difference in opinion between the two SHIELD factions.

Reasonable differences? NEVER! THey oppose the protagonists, they will be evil!

Quote:
Coulson's faction thinks the secret spy organization should have its secrets, and that, golly gee, human beings shouldn't be killed en masse just because they develop super powers. <--- Brain mush!

Who watches the watchmen? With no oversight there's no accountability. We should just trust colson just because he was a swell guy and not know what he's doing?

Mexican guy's

You can refer to him by his proper name, Commander Adama :)

Quote:
faction think the secret spy organization shouldn't keep secrets. Except for all the secrets they keep (like their very existence, and the spies they have running around. Those don't count, right?) and are right on board with slaughtering people who develop powers. <--- Totally cool dudes.

Depends on whether you develop the ability to talk to lizards or say, uncontrollably throw California into the ocean and kill 120 million people.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Yes... then they would roll her out in green HYDRA spandex suit upon graduation. This has potential.

I think that's about equally as unlikely as the writers having her defect to AIM and becoming a MODOK.

Sovereign Court

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I want to see MODOK


I don't think Other Shield is evil. I think they are just untrusting of supers, etc.

As far as believing in not keeping secrets, I think it's more that they don't believe a single person should be invested with all the power and knowledge of the organization. It seems like more that Other Shield is being run by a council of higher level agents.

Liberty's Edge

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I can't see not!SHIELD as sympathetic because, regardless of why they did it, they decided - on their own, without any outside sanction whatsoever - that they were the ones in the right and the ones who should be in charge. That attitude is dangerous. If you think you know how to run things, if you think there's a problem, you start first with the channels already in place. (If you get proof those channels won't work, then you start thinking about rebellion.) We all know Coulson would have listened if Bobbi or Mack, let alone the rest of not!SHIELD, had come in and then expressed their concerns about him being compromised. He made May promise to shoot him in the head if he went off the reservation. He wouldn't have ignored their issues. Instead, there is about to be a SHIELD civil war, and it's because five rogue agents decided they and they alone knew best how to run the world. "Fury has too many secrets?" That somehow suggests their own hands are clean, and that's just flat-out bull****. How many SHIELD agents were lost after the purge because not!SHIELD held back resources and people and spent their time infiltrating Coulson's group instead of fighting Hydra? Would Agent 33 still have her own brain and be free of Ward's manipulations if the renegades were working with SHIELD instead of against it?

Coulson didn't want the job. That's part of why Fury picked him, and it's why he is the "real SHIELD."

Dark Archive

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It seems that part of the 'problem' with RealSHIELD is that they are run by committee, and Kirk Acevedo's gung-ho 'shoot first, ask questions never' character is a third of that committee, dragging the whole organization into bad decision after bad decision.

That's perhaps a kind of typical message for American media to send, that Coulson's SHIELD is 'the good guys' because they use a top-down dictatorial management system, where one guy, good or bad (but always conveniently the better choice than any group of leaders), has the ball, while RealSHIELD is 'the bad guys' because they are (as Bobbi points out in the flashback on the boat) are trying to get away from 'just following orders' and taking a stab at running things more democratically.

Same story from the Avengers movie. That one director guy makes the right call. The shadowy cabal of leaders on the conference call are, of course, the jerks who want to nuke New York.

(Benign, enlightened) Dictator good. (Backstabbing, muddle-headed and / or useless) Democracy bad.

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MMCJawa wrote:
I don't think Other Shield is evil. I think they are just untrusting of supers, etc.

I believe the next episode will clarify them as "evil" with a small "e".

Shisumo wrote:
I can't see not!SHIELD as sympathetic because, regardless of why they did it, they decided - on their own, without any outside sanction whatsoever - that they were the ones in the right and the ones who should be in charge. That attitude is dangerous.

Neither S.H.I.E.L.D. has any sanction. Neither Coulson nor "The Real S.H.I.E.L.D." are accountable to anyone.

So I agree, that attitude is dangerous.

Shisumo wrote:
If you think you know how to run things, if you think there's a problem, you start first with the channels already in place. (If you get proof those channels won't work, then you start thinking about rebellion.) We all know Coulson would have listened if Bobbi or Mack, let alone the rest of not!SHIELD, had come in and then expressed their concerns about him being compromised. He made May promise to shoot him in the head if he went off the reservation. He wouldn't have ignored their issues.

The two organizations would most likely have merged. However, as things stand now, only one branch can survive. This is going to leave Mockingbird in a bad spot.

Shisumo wrote:
Instead, there is about to be a SHIELD civil war, and it's because five rogue agents decided they and they alone knew best how to run the world. "Fury has too many secrets?" That somehow suggests their own hands are clean, and that's just flat-out bull****.

Not to mention that those secrets would now be in HYDRA's hands.

I get the impression that Fury long suspected that S.H.I.E.L.D. was compromised. ... but that it was HYDRA was still likely a surprise.

Liberty's Edge

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Set wrote:

That's perhaps a kind of typical message for American media to send, that Coulson's SHIELD is 'the good guys' because they use a top-down dictatorial management system, where one guy, good or bad (but always conveniently the better choice than any group of leaders), has the ball, while RealSHIELD is 'the bad guys' because they are (as Bobbi points out in the flashback on the boat) are trying to get away from 'just following orders' and taking a stab at running things more democratically.

Same story from the Avengers movie. That one director guy makes the right call. The shadowy cabal of leaders on the conference call are, of course, the jerks who want to nuke New York.

(Benign, enlightened) Dictator good. (Backstabbing, muddle-headed and / or useless) Democracy bad.

I don't know why that would surprise you. It's enshrined in our Constitution.

We use democratic (direct Presidential election) and republican (Congressional action) processes to set policy, but we have a very explicit top-down, autocratic arrangement when it comes to executing that policy. It's even called the Executive Branch.

Having the input of a wide variety of people on what the goals of an organization should be is the ideal and should be pursued wherever feasible. Having a wide variety of people telling that organization exactly what to do to accomplish those goals leads to... well, infighting and chaos, to the detriment of the purpose you're theoretically trying to achieve. That's organizational management fact.

Liberty's Edge

Lord Fyre wrote:
Neither S.H.I.E.L.D. has any sanction. Neither Coulson nor "The Real S.H.I.E.L.D." are accountable to anyone.

Well first of all, that's untrue. Coulson has the tacit sanction of Gen. Talbot specifically and, by extension, the US government in general (since Talbot's not hiding what he's doing that we can see, so the people who oversee him know about it and haven't chosen to cut the relationship off). It's worth noting too that, as soon as the fallout from the Hydra betrayal was dealt with, Coulson reached out to Talbot with the express intention of establishing that relationship. Yes, SHIELD is a black op, but Coulson's not interested in being the boogeyman in the shadows, and he's taken concrete steps to achieve that.

Second of all, though, I'm not talking about SHIELD as a whole, I'm talking about sanctioning specifically as the leader(s) of the organization. Coulson has the appointment of Fury. Not!SHIELD has, "Well, we said so." Coulson accepted (with even a little reluctance) a job that was offered to him. The rogue agents more or less seized power for themselves. They aren't parallel cases.

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Shisumo wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
Neither S.H.I.E.L.D. has any sanction. Neither Coulson nor "The Real S.H.I.E.L.D." are accountable to anyone.
Well first of all, that's untrue. Coulson has the tacit sanction of Gen. Talbot specifically and, by extension, the US government in general (since Talbot's not hiding what he's doing that we can see, so the people who oversee him know about it and haven't chosen to cut the relationship off).

This is true.

Shisumo wrote:

Second of all, though, I'm not talking about SHIELD as a whole, I'm talking about sanctioning specifically as the leader(s) of the organization. Coulson has the appointment of Fury.

Did Fury have the right to do that? One of the charges that the "Real S.H.I.E.L.D." has made against Fury is that he acted like a "king" including insuring a line of succession. Just because they are the "bad guys" doesn't actually make them wrong.

That said, they have no more Authority then Coulson does.

Their correct action (as you pointed out earlier in this thread) would have been to try to communicate with Coulson.


It was pretty ironic, him going on about Fury's penchant for secrets and lies being what destroyed them in the first place, only to use secrets and lies to infiltrate Coulson's team in order to take them down. And we know at least one person on their team isn't playing by the rules, given that he tried to shoot Skye with a real gun.

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Shadowborn wrote:
It was pretty ironic, him going on about Fury's penchant for secrets and lies being what destroyed them in the first place, only to use secrets and lies to infiltrate Coulson's team in order to take them down. And we know at least one person on their team isn't playing by the rules, given that he tried to shoot Skye with a real gun.

It is not clear that he was "disobeying orders." It is entirely possible that he had different orders then Bobbi (since she would have refused to obey that order).

This is what I mean about her ending up in a "bad spot" when this is over. She is not evil, but circumstances have put her on the bad guys team.


Well, he went directly against the instructions given by Morse, who appeared to be in charge of that group when the jet landed, anyway. Problem is that if this "real" SHIELD is run by council, they definitely don't seem to be on the same page as far as what needs to be done.

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Shadowborn wrote:
Well, he went directly against the instructions given by Morse, who appeared to be in charge of that group when the jet landed, anyway. Problem is that if this "real" SHIELD is run by council, they definitely don't seem to be on the same page as far as what needs to be done.

That is the point that Set was making. "Real S.H.I.E.L.D." is riven by factions with slightly different agendas.

I believe that problem will be made more apparent (to the audience) during the next episode.


You know we still haven't found out what Fury has on that ship that "Not!Shield" is using as a base. How much you want to bet that "Not!Shield" uses it or that Hydra gets it after all because they didn't sink the ship as ordered.


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If anyone in the worldwide intelligence community is aware of what a clusterf!@~ S.H.I.E.L.D.'s chain-of-command has become after the Winter Soldier debacle, they'd probably be seriously worried, especially if they couldn't help determine which faction rises to the top of command.

...At least until a genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist decides that maybe he could use his former weapons manufacturing skills and resources to built an international team to respond to threats. A tireless 24/7 team that responds rationally and logically to problems without ego or other human fallibilities getting in the way. Whew!

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