Critique Request: Boltslinger (Gunslinger Crossbow archetype)


Homebrew and House Rules


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Quick background: I am prepping to run a homebrew campaign and one of my players asked if it would be possible to play a gunslinger. I'm personally not a fan of firearms/gunslingers in the d20 system and more importantly they don't fit into my campaign setting. That said, the player asked if Crossbows could be subbed out for the firearms, so I spent an hour or two drafting an archetype of the Gunslinger for this purpose. Yes, I know, sounds like Diablo III (actually, can we pretend that that disappointment of a sequel never happened?), but not quite.

I tried to keep as many of the abilities the same or true to their original nature. I'd say that this ends up being similar to a fighter with some added abilities in lieu of Weapon Training. Attacks resolve normally against AC rather than being treated as a special touch attack. I am, of course, concerned about overall strength and versatility versus the base classes, so any input would be appreciated.

Boltslinger:

Starting Wealth: 5d6 x 10 gp (average 175gp) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Boltslinger are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all crossbows. They are proficient with all light armor.
This replaces a Gunslinger's standard weapon and armor proficiency.

Armbruster
You gain a bonus skill rank every level that must be placed into Craft: Crossbows. When crafting a crossbow or ammunition, use the item's value in gold pieces rather than silver pieces to determine your progress.
This replaces Gunsmith.

Grit (Ex)
This functions as a Gunslinger's Grit (1st level), but applies to crossbows rather than guns.

Nimble (Ex)
As Nimble (2nd level).

Bonus Feats
As Bonus Feats (4th level).

Arbalest Training (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a Boltslinger can select one specific type of crossbow (such as a Hand Crossbow, Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Repeating Crossbow, etc). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of crossbow. Additionally, she can treat her Gunslinger level as her effective Fighter level for the purposes of obtaining the following feats with the selected crossbow: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Penetrating Strike, & Greater Penetrating Strike. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the Boltslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well.
This ability replaces Gun Training.

True Grit (Ex)
As True Grit.


Deeds:

Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, the Boltslinger can ignore the penalty for shooting beyond her crossbow's first range increment. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point per range increment beyond the first. The Boltslinger still takes the -2 penalty on attack rolls for each range increment beyond the first when she performs this deed (unless grit is expended).
This deed modifies Deadeye.

Boltslinger's Dodge (Ex): As Gunslinger's Dodge.

Focused Bolt (Ex): At 1st level, the Boltslinger can spend a 1 grit and a full-round action to focus on one target to either gain a bonus to attack equal to her Wisdom Modifier or a bonus to damage equal to her Boltslinger level. At level 7 the action required goes to a Standard Action. At level 13 the action becomes a Move action. At level 19 the action becomes a Swift.

Boltslinger Initiative (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as the Boltslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains the following benefits. First, she gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. Furthermore, if she has the Quick Draw feat, her hands are free and unrestrained, and the crossbow is not hidden, she can draw a single crossbow as part of the initiative check.
This deed replaces Gunslinger Initiative.

Stock Bludgeon (Ex): At 3rd level, the Boltslinger can make a surprise melee attack with the stock or handle of her crossbow as a standard action. When she does, she is considered to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon and gains a bonus on the attack and damage rolls equal to the enhancement bonus of the firearm. The damage dealt by the Stock Bludgeon is of the bludgeoning type, and is determined by the size of the crossbow. Hand Crossbows deal 1d4 points of damage, Light Crossbows deal 1d6 points of damage, Heavy Crossbows deal 1d8 points of damage, and Repeating Crossbows deal 1d10 points of damage. Regardless of the crossbow size, the critical multiplier of this attack is 20/×2. If the attack hits, the Boltslinger can make a combat maneuver check to knock the target prone as a free action. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point.
This deed replaces Pistol-Whip.

Utility Shot (Ex): At 3rd level, if the Boltslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can perform all of the following utility shots. Each utility shot can be applied to any single attack with a crossbow, but the Boltslinger must declare the utility shot she is using before firing the shot.
Wall Shot: You can fire crossbow bolts at solid surfaces to create handholds and footholds. Each standard bolt can only support 50 lbs, so it is likely necessary to create multiple hand/foot holds at once. Your attack damage must be enough to bypass the hardness of the surface.
Scoot Unattended Object: The Boltslinger makes an attack roll against a Tiny or smaller unattended object within the first range increment of her crossbow. A Tiny unattended object has an AC of 5, a Diminutive unattended object has an AC of 7, and a Fine unattended object has an AC of 11. On a hit, the Boltslinger does not damage the object with the shot, but can move it up to 15 feet farther away from the shot’s origin. On a miss, she damages the object normally.
Grappling Catch: You can fire a grappling bolt at a falling creature or object. This attack goes against the target's Touch AC and requires the use of a grappling bolt. Alternatively, you can fire a grappling bolt to catch yourself while falling. Either way, you cannot exceed the maximum length of the rope/cord attached to the bolt.
This deed modifies Utility Shot.

Dead Shot (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the Boltslinger can take careful aim and pool all of her attack potential into a single, deadly shot. When she does this, she shoots the crossbow at a single target, but makes as many attack rolls as she can, based on her base attack bonus. She makes the attack rolls in order from highest bonus to lowest, as if she were making a full attack. If any of the attack rolls hit the target, the Boltslinger's single attack is considered to have hit. For each additional successful attack roll beyond the first, the Boltslinger increases the damage of the shot by the base damage dice of the crossbow. For instance, if a 7th-level Boltslinger firing a medium light crossbow hits with both attacks, she does 2d8 points of damage with the shot, instead of 1d8 points of damage, before adding any damage modifiers. Precision damage and extra damage from weapon special abilities (such as flaming) are added with damage modifiers and are not increased by this deed. If one or more rolls are critical threats, she confirms the critical once using her highest base attack bonus –5. For each critical threat beyond the first, she reduces this penalty by 1 (to a maximum of 0). The Boltslinger only misses on a dead shot if all the attack rolls are natural 1's. The Boltslinger must spend 1 grit point to perform this deed.
This deed modifies Dead Shot.

Expert Loading (Ex): At 7th level, as long as the Boltslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains the benefits of the Crossbow Mastery feat.
This deed modifies Expert Loading.

Startling Shot (Ex): As Startling Shot, but applies to Boltslingers and crossbows.

Targeting (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the Boltslinger can make a single firearm attack and choose part of the body to target. She gains the following effects depending on the part of the body targeted. If a creature does not have one of the listed body locations, that part cannot be targeted. This deed costs 1 grit point to perform no matter which part of the creature she targets. Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are immune to these effects.

Arms: On a hit, the target takes no damage from the hit but drops one carried item of the gunslinger’s choice, even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items held in a locked gauntlet are not dropped on a hit. Feats and abilities that improve the Disarm combat maneuver apply to the attack roll for this target.
Head: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and is also confused for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect.
Legs: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and knocked prone. Creatures that have four or more legs or that are immune to trip attacks are immune to this effect. Feats and abilities that improve the Trip combat maneuver apply to the attack roll for this target.
Torso: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and stumbles back 5'. Feats and abilities that improve the Bull Rush combat maneuver apply to the attack roll for this target.
Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and must make a DC 20 Fly check or fall 20 ft.
This deed modifies Targeting.

Quick Recalibrate (Ex): At 11th level, as an immediate action, the Boltslinger can spend 1 grit point to re-roll a single attack. She must take the second roll regardless of its result and cannot apply any other feats or abilities that allow a re-roll to this new roll.
This deed replaces Quick Clear.

Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the Boltslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains the benefits of the Point Blank Master feat.
This deed replaces Lightning Reload.

Evasive (Ex): As Evasive.

Menacing Shot (Ex): At 15th level, the Boltslinger can spend 1 grit point and a full-round action to fire bolts at a number of unique targets up to her Boltslinger level. These bolts are fired in a way that they just barely miss or veer away from a vital area. Each target is subject to the fear spell. The DC of this effect is equal to 10 + 1/2 the Boltslinger’s level + the Boltslinger’s Wisdom modifier.
This deed modifies Menacing Shot.

Slinger's Luck (Ex): As Slinger's luck.

Cheat Death (Ex): As Cheat Death.

Death’s Shot (Ex): As Death's Shot.

Stunning Shot (Ex): As Stunning Shot.

Note:
Adding a new type of ammunition:
Piton Bolts - These specialized Crossbow bolts are designed to penetrate hard surfaces and act as a standard piton. Firing this bolt at an inanimate non-magical surface allows you to ignore the first 5 points of hardness and support weight as a regular piton would. Firing this bolt at a living target requires a standard attack roll, but at a -4 penalty.

Credits and Search-Fu Disclaimer:

  • Credit for the Wall Shot deed does go to Zautos'. After some forum-searching I decided to modify that idea to what is listed above.
  • I've seen Meepo's Gunslinger archetype, but as one of my gripes with the Gunslinger is full BAB resolving against touch, I couldn't bring myself to use it.
  • Realistically and logically, I cannot modify firearms to not resolve against touch, so that option was tossed out too.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If its just the fluff you object to, why make things so m ch more difficult for youtself, and just use gunslinger as is with xbows instead of guns. Make the class use special exotic crossbows with the same chances for failure as firearms...and special rare bolts to replace the expensive ammo....maybe alchemical in nature.


ahayford wrote:
If its just the fluff you object to, why make things so m ch more difficult for youtself, and just use gunslinger as is with xbows instead of guns. Make the class use special exotic crossbows with the same chances for failure as firearms...and special rare bolts to replace the expensive ammo....maybe alchemical in nature.

Unfortunately a direct conversion doesn't logically work on many of the abilities.

I do like the alchemy suggestion, so I will think about switching it to alchemy-based weaponry that mimics firearms at a much lower velocity (so no touch AC).


Looks pretty cool. I think one of Epic Meepo's archetypes did something a little similar, too.


What's an "armbruster"? I've never heard that term used in association with crossbows before.


The Golux wrote:
Looks pretty cool. I think one of Epic Meepo's archetypes did something a little similar, too.

Is there a different archetype that he/she did beyond the one that I linked?

Cthulhudrew wrote:
What's an "armbruster"? I've never heard that term used in association with crossbows before.

A fancy-sounding name of a crossbow-maker that I found :-p


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

I like this idea. I am still on the fence about guns in the game, but this gives the crossbow wielder some style.

One thing that I do in my games is have metal versions of the crossbows. The normal Core stats are for wooden crossbows. Here are the stats that I use:

Metal Hand Crossbow
Cost: 30 GP, Weight: 3, Damage: 1d8

Metal Hand Repeating Crossbow
Cost: 300 GP, Weight: 6, Damage: 1d8

Metal Heavy Crossbow
Cost: 75 GP, Weight: 12, Damage: 3d8

Metal Heavy Repeating Crossbow
Cost: 600 GP, Weight: 18, Damage: 3d8

Metal Light Crossbow
Cost: 50 GP, Weight: 6, Damage: 3d6

Metal Light Repeating Crossbow
Cost: 375 GP, Weight: 9, Damage: 3d6

The different versions are based on their wooden versions, in a manner similar to how a Composite bow is based on its normal version. For example. Weapon Focus Light Crossbow applies to both Light Crossbow and Metal Light Crossbow. The same goes for Repeating versions, which in my opinion is still the same thing, only with a variation in loading.


I made an archetype with the same intention and name, you can find it on the bottom right side of this.

I replaced the gunsmith ability with the ability to add wisdom to the attack roll at short range, since the gunsmith ability really only exists to give low level gunslingers access to their weapon of choice at all (because guns start in the 4-digit price range), and so i could replace the touch attack ability.


SeeleyOne wrote:

I like this idea. I am still on the fence about guns in the game, but this gives the crossbow wielder some style.

One thing that I do in my games is have metal versions of the crossbows. The normal Core stats are for wooden crossbows. Here are the stats that I use:

Spoiler:

Metal Hand Crossbow
Cost: 30 GP, Weight: 3, Damage: 1d8

Metal Hand Repeating Crossbow
Cost: 300 GP, Weight: 6, Damage: 1d8

Metal Heavy Crossbow
Cost: 75 GP, Weight: 12, Damage: 3d8

Metal Heavy Repeating Crossbow
Cost: 600 GP, Weight: 18, Damage: 3d8

Metal Light Crossbow
Cost: 50 GP, Weight: 6, Damage: 3d6

Metal Light Repeating Crossbow
Cost: 375 GP, Weight: 9, Damage: 3d6


The different versions are based on their wooden versions, in a manner similar to how a Composite bow is based on its normal version. For example. Weapon Focus Light Crossbow applies to both Light Crossbow and Metal Light Crossbow. The same goes for Repeating versions, which in my opinion is still the same thing, only with a variation in loading.

An interesting idea... Looks like you increased the damage dice by 3 steps? I'm not in any way an expert on crossbows, so this is a legitimate question (not a jab). Does changing the stock's material improve the firing quality (and thus damage)?

Threeshades wrote:

I made an archetype with the same intention and name, you can find it on the bottom right side of this.

I replaced the gunsmith ability with the ability to add wisdom to the attack roll at short range, since the gunsmith ability really only exists to give low level gunslingers access to their weapon of choice at all (because guns start in the 4-digit price range), and so i could replace the touch attack ability.

Definitely an interesting build. Have you tried playtesting it yet?

As I said about mine, I threw it together doing as much direct ability conversions as possible. I'm curious if the Wisdom to attack with a full BAB is too much (at a glance it seems like it would put their attacks maybe 1/4 to 1/2 of the way back towards touch AC).

Gunsmith is more than just receiving your first firearm, it also gives Gunslingers a free feat (Gunsmithing) which allows them to craft weapons and ammo very quickly (and inexpensively) without needing to make any kind of skill check. That's why I went with giving free ranks to Craft:Crossbows and reducing the crafting time needed. My second thought with giving those skill ranks was that it would make it easier for the Boltslinger to pick up Master Crafstman and Craft Magic Arms & Armor to enchant their crossbow(s).


Sorry, I didn't see that you linked the archetype. And it's not just the metal stocks, it's the metal arms, I think.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

I think the damage went up two steps, as per a chart on page 145 in the Core book.


The Golux wrote:


Sorry, I didn't see that you linked the archetype. And it's not just the metal stocks, it's the metal arms, I think.

No worries, I just wanted to make sure I didn't fail in my search-fu. Had there been a different archetype I definitely would have taken a look. And I suppose metal arms would make a difference.

SeeleyOne wrote:
I think the damage went up two steps, as per a chart on page 145 in the Core book.

Got it. I didn't have a chance to look up the chart.


A metal construction would allow more strength in the arms, thus a more powerful draw. So it makes sense. I had the same idea but I only went one die step up, 2d6 and 2d8 for light and heavy xbows, respectively. 3d6 might help open the build up for some more combat options with the vital strike chain and synergize well with a 3-level Archer fighter archetype dip for a few extra feats and trickshot. The Crossbowman sucks though. But I'm digging this archetype, I love crossbows and they don't get a whole lot of love. Playtest it and let us know how it goes


So just did a few hours of playtesting and now have revision 1 of the archetype.


~~~
I have uploaded the new document to google drive here.
~~~

Any further reviews or thoughts are appreciated.

Round 1: Character sheets:

We found that the boltslinger was too feat-starved (due to needing crossbow feats). This was resolved by adding the following line to Arbalest Training, "She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of crossbow and is treated as having the Rapid Reload feat for that crossbow (this also qualifies the boltslinger for any feats or abilities requiring the Rapid Reload feat when applied to this crossbow type)."

We also noted that the Focused Bolt deed was a little lacking in how it was thought-out (honestly I tossed it together in about 15-20 minutes). Being that it costs a grit to activate and grit is limited, the deed was changed to this:
Focused Bolt (Ex): At 1st level, the boltslinger can expend one grit and a Swift action to focus on one target to either gain a bonus to attack equal to her Wisdom Modifier or a bonus to damage equal to her boltslinger level on her next attack.
Martial classes never really get to harness the Swift action in the action economy, and making this cost a grit does help to balance the boost and prevent overuse.

Round 2: Compare boltslinger to fighter:

This put us into the second round, where we compared the boltslinger's numeric stats to a ranged fighter using a composite longbow of the same level. The boltslinger ended up with a higher chance to hit and inflicted slightly more damage than the fighter. To resolve that, I removed the verbiage from Arbalest Training that allowed the boltslinger to get the fighter-only feats (Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Penetrating Shot, and Greater Penetrating Shot).

With the boltslinger now unable to get Weapon Specialization, the class could now not obtain Point-Blank Master (to prevent AoO's from firing) until the level 11 deed. To try to help the class out a bit (it is an archetype that is based entirely on ranged attacks...) I removed Crossbow Mastery from the level 7 deed and shifted Point-Blank Master to that deed. Now the boltslinger can obtain this feat's effect (if he has 1 grit remaining) a full 2 levels after the earliest point that a fighter can get it.

I also noticed that I failed to copy the Bleeding Wound deed into my document. That has now been added.

Round 3: Solo combat:

Round 3 was pitting a boltslinger against 3 scenarios as the only class. This test was followed by a fighter of the same level and approximate spec (ranged, but using a composite longbow) to see which one performed better. The hope was that the fighter would slightly out-perform the boltslinger.

Level 10 PC's, 25-pt buy with 62k in starting funds. Human. We min-maxed a bit on purpose to test the upper limit. Hit points were calculating using max for first level, then average for following levels.

  • Class versus 1x Frost Worm starting 100' away, Worm got a surprise round but Boltslinger had higher initiative after that. Setting was an open field
  • Class versus 4x Dire Apes starting 30' away, no surprise round, initiative put 2 apes before the Boltslinger. Setting was a temperate forest.
  • Class versus 3x Dire Bears 40' away, no surprise round, initiative put 1 bear before the Boltslinger. Setting was a dark cave.

The boltslinger killed the Worm in 3 rounds, successfully reflexing from the breath weapon and the explosion on death. Boltslinger survived, but barely. However, the fighter wasn't so lucky. The worm died in 2 rounds, but the fighter failed both reflex saves and died.

The 4 apes died without even scratching the boltslinger, but beat up the fighter a little.

The boltslinger just barely managed to kill the 3 bears without dieing. Some bad rolls on the claw attacks saved the slinger from being grappled. The fighter wasn't as lucky. His lower AC let him get hit more and even grappled. After killing 2 bears, the third bear managed to kill the fighter while it had exactly 1 hit point remaining.

Boltslinger stats:

Str 8, Dex 24, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10
HP 79, AC 28, Flat 19, Touch 21
Fort 9, Ref 15, Will 8
Feats: Weapon Focus {Heavy Crossbow}, Deadly Aim, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Crossbow Mastery, Improved Critical
Gear: Belt of Physical Might +2 (Dex/Con), Handy Haversack, Ring of Protection +2, +3 Mithril Chain Shirt, Boots of Speed, +3 Heavy Crossbow, Cloak of Resistance +1, 2900gp

Fighter (Archer Archetype) stats:

Str 24, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
HP 79, AC 22, Flat 18, Touch 15
Fort 9, Ref 9, Will 5
Feats: Weapon Focus {Longbow}, Deadly Aim, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Specialization {Longbow}, Greater Weapon Focus {Longbow}, Clustered Shots, Improved Critical, Toughness
Gear: Belt of Physical Might +2 (Str/Dex), Ring of Protection +1, +3 Mithril Chain Shirt, Boots of Speed, +3 Composite Longbow Str 7, Cloak of Resistance +2, 5000gp

We did note that the fighter may have survived better if we spent 2k on an Amulet of Natural Armor +2 and swapped his Str/Dex scores (this would have dropped damage output slightly but increased chance to hit).


Hmm... not quite what I expected. Still, not a bad concept. Maybe the ability to load gunpowder packs on the bolts that give them a bit of added distance and punch?


How does Dead Shot interact with Double Crossbows?

One problem I'm seeing is that you're in deep *** if waiting till fifth level to get Rapid Reload. For a crossbow user it's usually one of those "that was your human bonus feat" deals.

Crossbow archetypes interest me, as it literally takes class abilities to make up for their treatment by devs under the d20 systems [balance be damned, it's unrealistic to have quick loading in a world with giant robot spiders, but we shouldn't give crossbows their penetration and power because game balance?].


Kazaan wrote:
Hmm... not quite what I expected. Still, not a bad concept. Maybe the ability to load gunpowder packs on the bolts that give them a bit of added distance and punch?

The archetype was written to present a 'gunslinger' in a campaign without gunpowder or firearms. While the crossbow in the video you linked certainly has that extra 'awesome-factor', re-tooling that particular weapon would take some work. It would also reduce the viability of the class if it was pigeon-holed into one specific weapon.

As far as adding distance/punch, it doesn't need it. A light crossbow has a range of 80' and a heavy crossbow has 120'. This is already 10' farther than the composite bows, and 20' farther than the non-composite bows. Damage is also already in line.

The major issue with crossbows in the d20 system stems from the feat investment in making reloads a free action and the lack of bonus damage (meaning the strength damage from a composite bow). The feat investment can be resolved through the class/archetype, as can the bonus damage. The bonus damage solution I took was to stay truer to the original Gunslinger--just add dex. I suppose you could remove the dex-to-damage part and add something else in to pack a harder punch, but keeping things simple was my goal.

Jamie Charlan wrote:


How does Dead Shot interact with Double Crossbows?

One problem I'm seeing is that you're in deep *** if waiting till fifth level to get Rapid Reload. For a crossbow user it's usually one of those "that was your human bonus feat" deals.

Crossbow archetypes interest me, as it literally takes class abilities to make up for their treatment by devs under the d20 systems [balance be damned, it's unrealistic to have quick loading in a world with giant robot spiders, but we shouldn't give crossbows their penetration and power because game balance?].

As far as Dead Shot and Double Crossbows... The original ability does not indicate that you cannot use it with a Double-Barrel Pistol/Musket, so I would say that double crossbows would work just fine. I did not consider double crossbows while making this, though, so that certainly begs the question of whether or not this working with double crossbows would leapfrog it over the fighter in power. More playtesting is clearly needed, thank you for bringing that up.

I suppose you could always take Rapid Reload at a lower level and then re-train it to something else using the Downtime System that Paizo created in Ultimate Campaign, but I don't see that as necessary. Reloading a Hand or Light Crossbow without Rapid Reload is a Move Action, and since you can pick up other important ranged feats before level 5, I don't see it as an issue. Using a standard action to fire and a move action to reload puts you a step behind bow-users (where they can fire and take a Move action), but isn't terrible.


just a comment on armbuster, but aparently crossbows are under craft: weapons, this is according to the core rulebook page 93 table 4-4. maybe reword it as a bonus on craft weapon checks to make and repair both crossbows and crossbow bolts.


Mythic +10 Artifact Toaster wrote:
just a comment on armbuster, but aparently crossbows are under craft: weapons, this is according to the core rulebook page 93 table 4-4. maybe reword it as a bonus on craft weapon checks to make and repair both crossbows and crossbow bolts.

Well that's a rather embarrassing 'oops'... Thank you, I'll adjust it so that the bonus skill ranks in Craft Weapons only apply to crossbows.


No problem, it was one of those weird rule things that wiggled in back if my mind, telling me to check the book.

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