Allingment issue with NPC creation:


Advice

Liberty's Edge

A group of first time gamers entered a little homebrew I concocted. I should mention it was also my first game. Not only did the get off my planned track, but did so minutes into the game. There was a line up into a shop in town, the barbarian decided to put his shoulder down and bull-rush the line rather than wait or ask to be excused. His foolish action killed a woman and child, who happened to be the only family of the local shop keeper, Sam.
Sam was a simple, young shop-keeper who kept to himself, sold goods to adventurers, and lived a quiet life with his bride and new-born - until tragety struck in the form of a senseless barbarian. His life as he knew it is over.

Sam was last seen weeping and gnashing his teeth while ripping out his fingernails. While grieving, his only words are "death to the barbarian".

So as a diligent GM, I am creating this vengeful Sam. My question is what alignment do you recommend? He is not necessarily going to be going around killing, stealing, raping, pillaging etc. Yet he will be researching dark and arcane arts to bring down a lasting wrath upon the barbarian.

Thanks!

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Is it wrong for me to ask how a 1st level character killed two people with a bull rush? Bull rush causes no damage. Did he provoke AOO's?

It seems to me that he is being punished for something the rules should not have permitted.

Start swinging wildly and kill someone, sure I get it, but bull rush, well

The rules wrote:
A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm.


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They were a women and child. They don't really even have any stats beyond getting hit and dying. I think it's reasonable they died.

Make him either an antpaladin (pledging his soul to evil to get revenge) or a necromancer (I like necromancers :P).


Jerecuda wrote:
So as a diligent GM, I am creating this vengeful Sam. My question is what alignment do you recommend?

Well, that's up to you to be honest. I don't know same, but it sounds like he went crazy, evil, and out of his way vengeful to end the life of the barbarian from your description. Or in the least that its not far fetched.

I'd also like to know how/why the barbarian killed people with a bulrush, and why the mans wife and child just happened to be in just the right place to be murdered by a barbarian. Was this like, a grocery store of doom with spiked pineapple flails next to the line or something? Do they actually shop and stand in line at the man's store!?

I Hate Nickelback wrote:
They were a women and child. They don't really even have any stats beyond getting hit and dying. I think it's reasonable they died.

Not if the person had no intention to kill them. Then you just made someone die for no reason and unexpectedly and then punish them for it by having an antipaladin grocery store owner chase them down!(provided he was a grocery store owner).


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The lowest HP a human without a severe con penalty has is 3, which is 3 more than bull rush does.


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Also, thanks to Ultimate Campaign, you can have stats for children.

Please, think of the children :)


The Golux wrote:
The lowest HP a human without a severe con penalty has is 3, which is 3 more than bull rush does.

And the funny thing is, even with a Constitution of 3 (the lowest normal human Constitution), you'd still need to deal at least 4 damage to actually kill them.

Though really at that point it wasn't the barbarian but a scrape they got on the sidewalk that harbored a bacteria that overcame their immune-system. :P

Shadow Lodge

On actual topic
Probably LE. Lawful because he's working towards a very specific goal and evil for the whole "Dark" part of dark arts. Of course he could go as far as Neutral on either (or both) if the shop keeper is specifically refusing to attack others, or for other reasons. You'll have to think about his behavior beyond his motivation if you really want to nail his alignment. Honestly I wouldn't worry about it though, unless he's a divine caster you can always hold off deciding until just before the players directly encounter him again.

To the derailed topic
The game mechanics are designed around people standing in 5 foot squares. Last I checked people in ques stand a lot closer together, meaning some creative interpretation of the rules is allowed or even called for. A small child could easily be killed by some jerk slamming into him/her, even if said jerk didn't "intend" to kill them. Less likely for a full grown adult, but within the realm of possibility.


True Neutral, since there's no element in his background or current situation to suggest otherwise. Personal grief and revenge can apply to all alignments.

He could shift though. Maybe towards Calistra for the revenge-motif or Evil for the anti-paladin idea (which I rather like). A PC who created his own nemesis makes for an interesting campaign, so I'd actually look more at the Barbarian for ideas on what to do than to Sam Shopkeeper himself.


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I would assume that Sam is NG before this event occurs, and so I believe it stands up to reason that he would remain NG afterwards. The murder of his wife and daughter (I'm assuming) didn't drive him to puppy kicking and church burning, it's driving him to take revenge on the senseless murderer. Pursuing revenge in this sort of circumstance doesn't provoke an alignment shift, maybe a strike towards an alignment shift, but not a complete change to the other end of the spectrum.

He's just enraged and hateful, not evil.

If the murder changed Sam's entire outlook on life and moral philosophy, such as abandoning hope in a good aligned higher power, feeling as though the deity turned it's back on him, then it would be appropriate to change his alignment.


Since the shopkeeper is reacting to senseless violence (i.e., you DO know that your barbarian PC is CE, right?), Lawful Good makes sense. Or you could make a case for LN or NG. I don't see why he'd need to bother with 'dark arts' to enact his revenge, since law and justice are already on the shopkeeper's side and the local authorities should be quite willing to help him bring this monster to justice. In fact, if any of your PCs are heroic/good, perhaps they'd be interested in teaming up with Sam to take down the barbaric villain too.

Really, it's surprising that a player so early in the game would express interest in becoming an NPC and removed from play so quickly.


There are two paths I would consider in my game. Either Sam turns to the authorities, or he turns to faith. Personally, I like the second option more, as it opens up some interesting and flavorful options.

One, he could become a Paladin (specifically oath against vengeance, but I'd flavor it more on chaos than evil). The oath would open up some interesting role play options.

Second, He could turn to a more evil god and attempt to use necromancy to try and bring back his lost family and eventually learn how powerful the dark arts can be. Then he could use some new found ability (either researched or demon-granted) and vow to use them to exact revenge.

As far as alignment goes, I would suggest Lawful/something. He is acting with a specific goal in mind, and a particular code. On the other hand, if he is only seeking vengeance and will stop at nothing, letting no one and nothing stand in his way, then Chaotic/something is a reasonable option. I think it probably boils down to how you want to flavor his grief-fueled vengeance.


Or he could call on his previous customers - he should know quite a few adventurers...


If he was NG before, I could picture him as CE (slipping into rage and insanity) or NE.

If he's only focused on killing the barbarian but otherwise sticks to his principles, even true neutral, but going from a low-level commoner or expert to a mage quickly probably requires some deal with the devil. Alternatively he might hire assassins, again not generally a good act, especially if the assassins are willing to kill the other PCs.

But more honestly, it's weird that a bull rush killed someone. Let's hope the barbarian feels sorry about this and gets them raised.


Why turn Sam evil at all? You don't have to become evil to fight evil (i.e., the barbarian PC). And having a 'good guy' pursuing the evil PC could help hammer home the point that the other players' characters are currently partnered with a bloodthirsty criminal, giving them some great roleplay opportunities.


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What alignment was Sam before this incident? Just a shopkeeper. No reason for him to be an evil antipaladin. He was just a commoner. Almost all commoners are basically neutral. I think LN is the most common commoner alignment - they follow the laws of their town and obey the authorities and take care of themselves and their families first.

Grief-stricken temporary insanity does not change Sam's alignment.

I agree with the others - there is no reason for a bullrush to kill people. Sounds to me like the GM said "OMG, this barbarian is irritating me, I'll punish him for wrecking my story - Rocks Fall! Sam's whole family DIES!"

In fact, though I wasn't there, I imagine the conversation went like this:
Barbarian player: A long line? I don't want to wait. I cut to the front.
GM: You can't.
Player: Why not?
GM: It's rude.
Player: My character doesn't care what city people think. He cuts in.
GM: There's no room. The people don't let you.
Player: I'm big and strong. I make room.
GM: There's too many people and they don't move out of your way to let you cut in.
Player: Fine. I use bullrush to push someone out of the way so I can take his place.
GM: *Gnashing his teeth and seething with frustration because his player refused to follow the rails* Fine! You killed Sam's new bride and newborn child! Happy now?

So now it's done. Water under that weirdly unrealistic and exceptionally punitive bridge.

The OP said there was a "line up" to get into this shop. Surely that means that there were many witnesses to this senseless murder, right? The murder of a woman and child will be investigated by authorities in any town, even a Chaotic Evil village of goblins - even the most wretched hive of scum and villainy doesn't let outsiders walk into their community and slaughter innocents with impunity. The local law enforcement should be listing this vicious barbaric child-murderer as their #1 Most Wanted Villain and stopping at nothing to bring him to justice, regardless of whether Sam goes all Punisher-vigilante on the barbarian or not.

A level one Chaotic-Stupid barbarian cannot hide from the law - they'll even use tax money to pay for divination spells and hire high-level rangers/druids/bounty hunters to track down this murdering maniac and exact justice for his heinous crimes.


DM_Blake wrote:

What alignment was Sam before this incident? Just a shopkeeper. No reason for him to be an evil antipaladin. He was just a commoner. Almost all commoners are basically neutral. I think LN is the most common commoner alignment - they follow the laws of their town and obey the authorities and take care of themselves and their families first.

Grief-stricken temporary insanity does not change Sam's alignment.

I agree with the others - there is no reason for a bullrush to kill people. Sounds to me like the GM said "OMG, this barbarian is irritating me, I'll punish him for wrecking my story - Rocks Fall! Sam's whole family DIES!"

In fact, though I wasn't there, I imagine the conversation went like this:
Barbarian player: A long line? I don't want to wait. I cut to the front.
GM: You can't.
Player: Why not?
GM: It's rude.
Player: My character doesn't care what city people think. He cuts in.
GM: There's no room. The people don't let you.
Player: I'm big and strong. I make room.
GM: There's too many people and they don't move out of your way to let you cut in.
Player: Fine. I use bullrush to push someone out of the way so I can take his place.
GM: *Gnashing his teeth and seething with frustration because his player refused to follow the rails* Fine! You killed Sam's new bride and newborn child! Happy now?

So now it's done. Water under that weirdly unrealistic and exceptionally punitive bridge.

The OP said there was a "line up" to get into this shop. Surely that means that there were many witnesses to this senseless murder, right? The murder of a woman and child will be investigated by authorities in any town, even a Chaotic Evil village of goblins - even the most wretched hive of scum and villainy doesn't let outsiders walk into their community and slaughter innocents with impunity. The local law enforcement should be listing this vicious barbaric child-murderer as their #1 Most Wanted Villain and stopping at nothing to bring him to justice, regardless of whether Sam goes all...

You sir, have officially made my night (or morning, as it is 0100). This post made me laugh so hard I cried for many, many minutes on end! Additionally, my wife started busting up laughing too.

I have to throw in my .02c like everyone else and like Blake has so expertly done. Not sure how a Bull Rush pulls that off, but in my personal opinion, it sounds like a redact is in order (:

Even if you play it out, the Barbarian isn't going to get very far, as the local authorities would intervene within moments of this travesty and arrest this crazed, illiterate, NPC-murdering psychopath... thus, Sam's fate and subsequent "alignment change" is pretty inconsequential.


If a barbarian bullrushed a woman holding a baby she is dropping that baby. And dropping babies isn't really good for them. So it's not so hard to see how a bullrush can kill a baby..the wife however stumps me.


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I Hate Nickelback wrote:

They were a women and child. They don't really even have any stats beyond getting hit and dying. I think it's reasonable they died.

Make him either an antpaladin (pledging his soul to evil to get revenge) or a necromancer (I like necromancers :P).

Make him a Paladin out to impose Law on Chaotic Barbarians that cannot wait in a simple line.


I like that you used this tragic event to punish wildly chaotic PC action. The RAW is for turn-based combat situations, and this homicide was obviously a story arc (and a good plot twist on the fly, I think). That said:

Sam has a choice. Whether he was good or evil at heart before, a simple shopkeep will have to turn somewhere for solace and aid to face the murderer of his family. Whether he stays resolute and good in the face of the PC's evil deed or his heart is darkened by it and he turns toward evil himself is a GM fiat.

Whichever way Sam goes, there should be local legal action taken against the foolish barbarian. If this was a large town connected to a larger kingdom, he is likely now a wanted outlaw and quite screwed. If this was a small outskirts village beneath the notice of higher authority, he'd still likely face a lynch mob.

I say keep Sam righteous, at first at least. Let him assemble a posse of townsfolk and drive the PCs out of town (hopefully they don't square off with innocent people and flee). Let him take class levels as he dedicates his life to revenge- a life that will embitter him and perchance turn him evil in kind.

Don't forget to allow options for the (hopefully) penitent barbarian. Maybe the town government will allow him to pay for his crime with a quest that will certainly end in his death (although PCs are good at these), or a local spellcaster will curse or geas him. Don't count on Sam's acceptance of any such punishment short of death, however.

Poor Sam...

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