I just saw mention of this in another thread and thought I'd separate it out to flush out an answer.
Sandpoint Cathedral's closing requirement is: "Banish a blessing or Father Z"
Who has to banish the blessing?
I've always assumed it was the character that had the opportunity to make the closing 'check', but there is no 'from your hand' restriction here, unlike the General Store or Town Square.
In the bit below I use the phrase "Turn Player" to mean the character who has the opportunity to close the location, even though it may not be their 'turn' per se.
So, in my traditional style, which is the correct answer:
A) The Turn Player has to banish from their hand
B) Any player at the location can banish from their hands
C) Any player anywhere can banish from their hands
D) Similar to one of the above but you can banish from your discard pile as well as from your hand.
My understanding to date has been that it's (A). But the new post makes me think it's (C). Over to you guys to help boost my wisdom!
The rules on closing a location refer to you or yours so the character whose turn it is has to meet the conditions for closing.
Whatever the condition is, be it a check or as in this case banish a card unless it says you must, there is no reason why other characters cannot assist as per the normal rules.
Closing a Location
You may earn the opportunity to close a location in a number of ways....... When you have the opportunity and want to close a location, do whatever the location’s “When Closing” section says
The closing conditions imply you but omit the word e.g. They just say succeed at a x check.
Normal Rules would apply e.g. Other character can aid in the check. Some state Banish a card from your hand and as Sandpoint Cathederal does not state "your hand" I would say no such restriction applies.
Playing Cards
Playing a card means activating a card’s power by revealing, displaying, discarding, recharging, burying, or banishing the card.
...
If a card in your hand does not specify when it can be played, you can generally play it at any time, with the exception that during each step of attempting a check, you may only perform specific actions.....
and The Side box on Page 13
STRATEGY: SHOULD YOU BE SELFISH?(Note from h4ppy: Although I've quoted your OP here verbatim, I can't see any relevant quote in the SHOULD YOU BE SELFISH side box...)
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In short yes another character can banish the required cards to close Sandpoint Cathederal. They could not at the Town Square or the General Store as their When Closing states banish a card from your hand.
If no one has the require card then unless you can continue to explore and then meet the closing conditions it will fall to another character to do the same.
Here's my argument for the alternative case...
Banishing a card to close Sandpoint Cathedral is not a 'check'. It's a cost you have to pay and, to me, I didn't think that was something that somebody else could pay for you.
Also, I don't think that banishing the blessing to close the cathedral is 'playing the card' (which can be done any time unless stated otherwise, as stated in the rules you quoted). As such, this co-operation doesn't apply and only the Turn Player can pay the cost.
I might well be wrong on this. Until you mentioned the difference in wording on Sandpoint Cathedral, General Store and Town Square I hadn't noticed that they were different at all.
Part of me really hopes that the official ruling is that only the Turn Player can do this. As I said on another thread, this kind of emergent strategic decision is part of the depth and genius of the game:
To me, this is important strategically. If you don't have a blessing in your hand should you explore a location you know you cannot close? If you find the henchman you then have a new and interesting choice - try to lose (so he gets shuffled back into the location) or beat him but then know that you're going to have to go through the entire location deck before you can actually close the location.
Tough choices like this (that you might not realise even exist at first) are some of the many reasons why this game rocks!
I would say that the player attempting to close the location is the one that has to banish the blessing. Which probably also means that it will be the player who has just beaten a henchman.
I would say that it *is* just like a check, and is another of those instances which carries an implied "you" in the wording. I can't think of any other instance in which a non-active player is the one that is allowed to permanently close a location.
I would say it is not a check as checks have specific rules.
Your argument does not hold even if it is a check.
Even during a check other other players can play blessings and other boon's to assist the character making the check.
Either the card needs errata to add from your hand as per others when closing conditions or it plays as read.
As stated on other threads this implied you and your is a Pandora's box.
There seem to be so many restrictions that the game is becoming less co-op and more disjointed.
Characters assisting others is no different, even if at the same location, often better able to aid if at other locations. If you can play blessings remotely for checks then as I quoted elsewhere you should be able to play cards at any time as per their restriction on the cards or by the situation.
In the theme of characters are at the same location or in contact why can't they use their blessings to assist. This is after all a Cathederal and therefore it seems logical that a Blessing or the Father Z card should have the you or your restriction deliberately lifted.
Actually, I would argue forcefully that the restriction - that the active player must be the one who banishes a blessing - makes it *more* co-op than less. Because the players as a team have to decide ahead of time who should be at the Catherdral, ready to close it, rather than just have someone, somewhere toss a blessing at the relevant time.
Actually, I would argue forcefully that the restriction - that the active player must be the one who banishes a blessing - makes it *more* co-op than less. Because the players as a team have to decide ahead of time who should be at the Catherdral, ready to close it, rather than just have someone, somewhere toss a blessing at the relevant time.
with the blessing deck burning through and having to give cards before you move then it is not practical to play this co-op way.
You can just have someone somewhere toss blessings to help with other checks, that is one of their main uses and a precedent. In the game context just tossing blessings is probably a tad blasphemous.
Well - that's what this thread is here for! To try and elicit an official response so we know how the designers intended this to be played!
@St@rm@n - my argument here is that banishing the blessing is like paying a cost. If some other game effect says "banish a card" or "discard a card" then nobody else can help you, so why would closing the Cathedral be any different?
E.g. to use Seoni's power it says "...discard a carrd to...". No other character can 'help out' by paying this cost (AFAIK) - Seoni has to discard the card herself. To me, the same thing applies to the closing cost of the Cathedral.
And I agree with @RDewsbery - if my interpretation of the restriction is correct it makes the game much more co-op. You have to work as a team to be in the right places at the right times.
@Cheez, although banish is a way to play a card it does not always mean this so I'm not sure that argument holds.
Also, page 10 of the rule book doesn't say anything about playing a card only 'from your hand'... or does it?
@St@rm@n - my argument here is that banishing the blessing is like paying a cost. If some other game effect says "banish a card" or "discard a card" then nobody else can help you, so why would closing the Cathedral be any different?
It isn't. If you're given an opportunity to close a location, nobody else can do it for you.
Thanks for the clarification Mike!
In summary: Only the player trying to close the location can 'pay the cost' of doing so.
Case closed and thanks to everyone for the discussion!
I think the rules need a major change in the playing a card section as it clear states that if a card does not specify when it can be played it can be generally played at any time.
I would still like to see an official response on the distinction between Sandpoint Cathedral's "Banish a blessing" and the Town Square's "Banish a card from your hand." Does the blessing have to come from your hand? Could it also include your discard pile and/or your draw pile?
I think the Town Square was just over-explicit (it doesn't need to say 'from your hand', but saying so is not incorrect) but it would be nice to have this clarified.
And you're not "playing a card" (which can be done at any time), but "paying a cost" (which can only be done by the active player I believe).
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I think the rules need a major change in the playing a card section as it clear states that if a card does not specify when it can be played it can be generally played at any time.
The very first line of the "Playing Cards" section on page 10 of the rules begins:
Playing a card means activating a card’s power
The first sentence of the second paragraph (after the example) begins:
If a card in your hand does not specify when it can be played, you
can generally play it at any time
Yes, you can activate a card's power at any time. But when you're closing a location by discarding a blessing, you're not activating that blessing's power. In fact, you're not using the text of the blessing card at all. You're playing the location card, and have to follow all the rules for doing so, which state that only the person whose turn it is can permanently close it. The blessing card that gets banished is merely the cost of closing the location, not a card being played.
I think that's the key concept that's messing up a lot of people in several of these debates. It's the same in the debate about Seoni trying to recycle the cards she discards to use her blast power. The rules for playing a card only apply when you're using the text of that card. When you discard or banish a card as the cost of using a different card, the rules for playing the card that you're getting rid of don't apply. As someone else said elsewhere, treat it as a blank card - it doesn't matter what it is. You're using it as currency to do something specified on a different card, not as its own card type.
Hmm, i got other question - what is order of resolving effects. If i dont have blessing and beat henchman, can i get blessing in my hand from discard pile, as per Cathedral effect (henchman is monster), and then use it to close the location?
Henchman card says "Immediately", but if 2 things happen simultaneously from what i remember player choses the order.
Except, immediately must go first. See this comment from Vic.
Except, immediately must go first. See this comment from Vic.
Ty, i ruled the same just to be safe. Glad to know i didnt just missed my opportunity.