How is Mythic Adventures "Over the Top?, specific examples please!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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captain yesterday wrote:

@combatowl, unless you're playing Rasputin Must Die! mythic, there is no rocket tag, please stop using that phrase, also i didn't ask what was "broken" in Mythic Adventures, just what you considered Over the top, also i have no idea what "Exalted" is, however i'm pretty sure that wasn't Jason Buhlmans intent when he started crafting MA so please stop making comparisons as such.

also @combatowl and odraude, please stop sniping at each other! i didn't start this so people could bicker about it, state your opinion, respect other peoples, and move along.

i have mythic adventures and i don't need to hear about what you consider "broken", just what you think is over the top or even silly.

try to keep it light, no edition wars or comparisons to other RPGs and remember paizo is welcome to shut it down whenever they want! AND RESPECT EACH OTHERS OPINION! we're all human beings so treat each other as how you would want to be treated!

Covering the world with a single shotgun blast.

Now that's silly.

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

It is over-the-top. And that's great.


captain yesterday wrote:
also i have no idea what "Exalted" is,

Exalted is a White Wolf game for playing over the top powerful characters who can take on whole armies and are descended from gods...or sort of reincarnated ones. This is an oversimplification.

I found the system clunky and has the problem every WW game does - there is a point where if you are using your powers, you go nuts for a while and do things you wouldn't normally do, then have to deal with the aftermath. That is the single biggest thing.. well other than tone in the Vampire and related lines... that has kept me from playing any of their games.


Lord Mhoram wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
also i have no idea what "Exalted" is,

Exalted is a White Wolf game for playing over the top powerful characters who can take on whole armies and are descended from gods...or sort of reincarnated ones. This is an oversimplification.

I found the system clunky and has the problem every WW game does - there is a point where if you are using your powers, you go nuts for a while and do things you wouldn't normally do, then have to deal with the aftermath. That is the single biggest thing.. well other than tone in the Vampire and related lines... that has kept me from playing any of their games.

all white wolf games follow the same general formula

1. come up with a themed series of loosely related species
2. come up with thematic over the top powers
3. make using those powers come with the risk of going nuts and becoming an NPC
4. make PCs struggle to hide their powers and give social penalties based on how over the top their powers are.


Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Lord Mhoram wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
also i have no idea what "Exalted" is,

Exalted is a White Wolf game for playing over the top powerful characters who can take on whole armies and are descended from gods...or sort of reincarnated ones. This is an oversimplification.

I found the system clunky and has the problem every WW game does - there is a point where if you are using your powers, you go nuts for a while and do things you wouldn't normally do, then have to deal with the aftermath. That is the single biggest thing.. well other than tone in the Vampire and related lines... that has kept me from playing any of their games.

all white wolf games follow the same general formula

1. come up with a themed series of loosely related species
2. come up with thematic over the top powers
3. make using those powers come with the risk of going nuts and becoming an NPC
4. make PCs struggle to hide their powers and give social penalties based on how over the top their powers are.

As someone who plays WW games with some degree of regularity, I'm sad to say this is very accurate.


FlySkyHigh wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Lord Mhoram wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
also i have no idea what "Exalted" is,

Exalted is a White Wolf game for playing over the top powerful characters who can take on whole armies and are descended from gods...or sort of reincarnated ones. This is an oversimplification.

I found the system clunky and has the problem every WW game does - there is a point where if you are using your powers, you go nuts for a while and do things you wouldn't normally do, then have to deal with the aftermath. That is the single biggest thing.. well other than tone in the Vampire and related lines... that has kept me from playing any of their games.

all white wolf games follow the same general formula

1. come up with a themed series of loosely related species
2. come up with thematic over the top powers
3. make using those powers come with the risk of going nuts and becoming an NPC
4. make PCs struggle to hide their powers and give social penalties based on how over the top their powers are.

As someone who plays WW games with some degree of regularity, I'm sad to say this is very accurate.

never played them, but i read a lot of Rumors about them because i wanted to try them. i wanted to play a perfectly open mage or exalted who feels no shame about their heritage.


Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
FlySkyHigh wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Lord Mhoram wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
also i have no idea what "Exalted" is,

Exalted is a White Wolf game for playing over the top powerful characters who can take on whole armies and are descended from gods...or sort of reincarnated ones. This is an oversimplification.

I found the system clunky and has the problem every WW game does - there is a point where if you are using your powers, you go nuts for a while and do things you wouldn't normally do, then have to deal with the aftermath. That is the single biggest thing.. well other than tone in the Vampire and related lines... that has kept me from playing any of their games.

all white wolf games follow the same general formula

1. come up with a themed series of loosely related species
2. come up with thematic over the top powers
3. make using those powers come with the risk of going nuts and becoming an NPC
4. make PCs struggle to hide their powers and give social penalties based on how over the top their powers are.

As someone who plays WW games with some degree of regularity, I'm sad to say this is very accurate.
never played them, but i read a lot of Rumors about them because i wanted to try them. i wanted to play a perfectly open mage or exalted who feels no shame about their heritage.

Dunno about Exalted (I've strayed away from it), but as a Mage, that's pretty much impossible. You'd generate enough paradox that you'd kill yourself in no time at all.

Shadow Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
FlySkyHigh wrote:
Odraude wrote:
That seems very loopholey. I feel like that isn't the intention of the wording. As a GM, I don't think I'd allow that interpretation of Mythic Vital Strike.

Oh, I fully agree with you. Like I said, that's the RAW version. RAI, it's still pretty broken, but not quite as ridiculous.

I.E. Using Umbriere's example again (with my little addition), you'd be doing 8d4+280 points of damage without a crit, and 24d4+840 with the crit. It still gets pretty insane, but not nearly as over-the-top.

Still 1-shot most dragons though.

Remeber enemies will be mythic as well so that 1000+ damage could be redirected at a companion, the critical nullified etc by expending 1MP as well. It also sems ot assume 20th level with mythic tiers to reach these heights, by that stage 1 round kills is probably almost the norm - you can certainly 1 round most PC's by that time.

Hell the tier 1 archmage nullies massive damage using his immediate teleport mirror dodge effect for 1MP.


FlySkyHigh wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
FlySkyHigh wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Lord Mhoram wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
also i have no idea what "Exalted" is,

Exalted is a White Wolf game for playing over the top powerful characters who can take on whole armies and are descended from gods...or sort of reincarnated ones. This is an oversimplification.

I found the system clunky and has the problem every WW game does - there is a point where if you are using your powers, you go nuts for a while and do things you wouldn't normally do, then have to deal with the aftermath. That is the single biggest thing.. well other than tone in the Vampire and related lines... that has kept me from playing any of their games.

all white wolf games follow the same general formula

1. come up with a themed series of loosely related species
2. come up with thematic over the top powers
3. make using those powers come with the risk of going nuts and becoming an NPC
4. make PCs struggle to hide their powers and give social penalties based on how over the top their powers are.

As someone who plays WW games with some degree of regularity, I'm sad to say this is very accurate.
never played them, but i read a lot of Rumors about them because i wanted to try them. i wanted to play a perfectly open mage or exalted who feels no shame about their heritage.
Dunno about Exalted (I've strayed away from it), but as a Mage, that's pretty much impossible. You'd generate enough paradox that you'd kill yourself in no time at all.

that sucks. so no sorcerer's apprentice style fantasia mage who makes brooms sweep themselves and buildings construct themselves at will for the purpose of showing their talents off.

Shadow Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Odraude wrote:
CombatOwl wrote:
Odraude wrote:
I'm not finding the no save ability on a first tier power. If you're talking about Arcane Surge, it allows two saves, take the lowest on non-mythic. Which is still nice, but not auto fail.

Geas has no saving throw. Wild Arcana lets you cast any spell of a level you can cast that is on your class list. Meaning that arcane casters that can cast 6th level spells can cast Geas on a target as a swift action--and the subject gets no save to resist.

Symbol spells can get kind of stupid with this too.

Ah, derp, good call. Though, it's probably a better way to make a boss waste a remove curse.

No remove curse since he can't cast spells. This ability is the only one that I think is OTT, wild arcana is wrong - if it was a standard action it would resonate a little better, but as a swift...


Cat-thulhu wrote:

Hell the tier 1 archmage nullies massive damage using his immediate teleport mirror dodge effect for 1MP.

Mirror Dodge is tier 3.

Shadow Lodge

Its a trickster ability too.

Shadow Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Wycen wrote:
Cat-thulhu wrote:

Hell the tier 1 archmage nullies massive damage using his immediate teleport mirror dodge effect for 1MP.

Mirror Dodge is tier 3.

Yeah, my bad I was looking back at WIld Arcana. AT tier 3 it's around the same time the champion starts to get the obscene damage. At least the mirror dodge id limited by MP.


While I am not talking about power level but flavour I think the worst offender for over the top is the power with which you start granting domains to your followers.
For me that is over the top in the meaning of: Over the threshold of what I think I can stand in a d&d like game.

When talking about power level there is one thing underestimated until now that is mythic racial heritage. Especially in low level mythic games. My GM thought I was kidding when I told him that the power I'm aiming for is a rather harmless one and then said: Troll regeneration.

But I think it is true. There are other racial abilities out there that are much worse. For 5th level, when you can get it.

Rune giant's spark shower:

As a standard action, a rune giant can cause a shower of sparks to erupt out of one of the runes on its body. These sparks function as a breath weapon (30-ft. cone; 10d6 fire and 10d6 electricity damage; Reflex DC 29 half; usable once every 1d4 rounds). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Just for one example. Others include spell-like abilities from adlet or gigas, abyss.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Mythic get called "Over The Top" because it does 3 things:

1. It applies what I call movie logic to character actions. (Jump over 30 feet from a standing long jump? Sure. Hit something with an arrow and it explodes. Sure! Screw down time, we need more action scenes. SURE!) Some people really don't like this style or action narrative.

2. It removes restrictions on classes. A mythic tier does weird things if you pick the right path abilities etc. Like playing a Fighter that grants spells to others that worship him AND can later cast Mythic verions of them. Etc. A cleric that suddenly attacks bypassing DR and such like he was an assassin. Etc. It's not-quite multiclassing and that bugs people who like tighter defined roles.

3. It upps the numerical values on some things and allows for loads of extra actions. Again, this throws up warning flags.

Are they right? Kinda. But that's what Mythic was designed for. It's not for everyone, but it IS FOR ME!


I still think people are doing mythic vital strike wrong.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Lemartes wrote:
I still think people are doing mythic vital strike wrong.

I agree with you, but *shrugs* each GM is their own castle so to speak.


TheLoneCleric wrote:

Mythic get called "Over The Top" because it does 3 things:

1. It applies what I call movie logic to character actions. (Jump over 30 feet from a standing long jump? Sure. Hit something with an arrow and it explodes. Sure! Screw down time, we need more action scenes. SURE!) Some people really don't like this style or action narrative.

Complaining over this actually kinda angers me. If a person doesn't like cinematic combat, then they don't have to use these rules. A LOT of us have complained for years that martial classes don't keep up with magic classes. So, the game designers tried to move towards a fix. Optional rules to make martials more powerful is a very, very good thing.


You can make a relatively low CR character that can carry 100+ tons with using a combination of display of strength and mule's strength mythic powers.

Shadow Lodge

Isn't the entire point of mythic to be "over the top" ?

Justin Rocket wrote:
A LOT of us have complained for years that martial classes don't keep up with magic classes. So, the game designers tried to move towards a fix. Optional rules to make martials more powerful is a very, very good thing.

Except, as has always been the case in 3.x, when they boosted martials up by 2 steps, they boosted up casters by 5.

I don't really think the balances between good martials and good spellcasters is that bad...but the developers often seem like they're trying to make it so.


Sauce987654321 wrote:
You can make a relatively low CR character that can carry 100+ tons with using a combination of display of strength and mule's strength mythic powers.

How can you have a low CR mythic anything?

You have to complete a mythic quest to become mythic.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Justin Rocket wrote:
Optional rules to make martials more powerful is a very, very good thing.

Deciding combat with the initiative roll is a bad thing.

/shakes head

You lost initiative, roll a new character......


Justin Rocket wrote:
Sauce987654321 wrote:
You can make a relatively low CR character that can carry 100+ tons with using a combination of display of strength and mule's strength mythic powers.

How can you have a low CR mythic anything?

You have to complete a mythic quest to become mythic.

I'm saying that it's possible.

Shadow Lodge

Justin Rocket wrote:
How can you have a low CR mythic anything

A mythic quest you undertake to become a 1st level character probably isn't nearly as arduous as that taken by a 20th level character to gain their first mythic tier.

Or even as arduous the prologue to a 5th level adventure.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Artanthos wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

You don't receive them simultaneously, you receive them one at a time and make your selections one at a time. You don't get to accumulate them because the feat doesn't say you can't. You don't get to accumulate them because the feat doesn't say you CAN. No reading into feats that are abusable enough, thank you!

==Aelryinth

When you take the legendary item path ability, you apply all the powers your item is eligible for at that moment in time. You don't choose 1 trait, walk away, and choose another trait later. If I am tier 10, when I choose legendary item the 3rd time, I immediately receive 4 traits. All 4 of those traits take immediate effect. There is no separation in time.

More directly: RAW does not state I cannot apply multiple instances of spellcasting simultaneously. RAW makes not comment on the issue of timing at all.

Artanthos, you get to apply them EACH simultaneously AND INDEPENDENTLY. They don't suddenly agglomerate into one big batch of stuff all at once.

So yes, it gets Legendary abilties 1,2, and 3. It doesn't 1+2+3 = 4 JACKPOT wowza ownerz. If it said they would accumulate (hint: it doesn't) you'd be right.

You're playing with a very weird interpretation of the rules.

==Aelryinth


Kthulhu wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:
How can you have a low CR mythic anything

A mythic quest you undertake to become a 1st level character probably isn't nearly as arduous as that taken by a 20th level character to gain their first mythic tier.

Or even as arduous the prologue to a 5th level adventure.

Doesn't sound very mythic. A mythic quest should, I believe, profoundly change the world or a large part of it.

Scarab Sages

Aelryinth wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

You don't receive them simultaneously, you receive them one at a time and make your selections one at a time. You don't get to accumulate them because the feat doesn't say you can't. You don't get to accumulate them because the feat doesn't say you CAN. No reading into feats that are abusable enough, thank you!

==Aelryinth

When you take the legendary item path ability, you apply all the powers your item is eligible for at that moment in time. You don't choose 1 trait, walk away, and choose another trait later. If I am tier 10, when I choose legendary item the 3rd time, I immediately receive 4 traits. All 4 of those traits take immediate effect. There is no separation in time.

More directly: RAW does not state I cannot apply multiple instances of spellcasting simultaneously. RAW makes not comment on the issue of timing at all.

Artanthos, you get to apply them EACH simultaneously AND INDEPENDENTLY.

Do you have a quote for that from RAW?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Cat-thulhu wrote:
This ability is the only one that I think is OTT, wild arcana is wrong - if it was a standard action it would resonate a little better, but as a swift...

I thought wild arcana worked much better in the playtest, where the wording implied that your swift action didn't cast the spell, it just gave you the ability to cast the spell. So you would have to spend a swift action to get the spell and then spend the normal casting time casting that spell.

Shadow Lodge

The way I see it, something is mythic if it profoundly impresses your "mythic sponsor", if you will. So something that a 1st level character could do that would impress (for example) Desna, wouldn't be nearly as impressive if it was accomplished by a 20th level character.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I must be missing something.

Are People trying to say you get all the Vital strike benefits PLUS all the Mythic strike benefits (so, like x7 weapon + x4 bonuses dmg) AND that you double/triple the whole shebang on a crit?

Because that is definitely not how it works.

Forgive me If I'm reading it wrong, but Mythic Vital Strike just modifies Your vital Strike chain to include all additive, non-dice bonuses.

So, you do a pure x2, x3 or x4 damage, then add on SA Dice or additives like flaming or bane weapon. If you crit, you add that on like a default multiplier, so an additional x1 with a greatsword, or x2 with a battle axe, etc.

a 20/10 fighter could reasonably be doing 100 a swing, so he'd be moving to 400 a swing. By using Mythic abilities to grant himself 2 additional SA per round, he'd logically do 1200 points a round if spending mYthic power.

==Aelryinth

Scarab Sages

Aelryinth wrote:

I must be missing something.

Are People trying to say you get all the Vital strike benefits PLUS all the Mythic strike benefits (so, like x7 weapon + x4 bonuses dmg) AND that you double/triple the whole shebang on a crit?

No.

Saying that Fleet Charge + Standard Action + Mythic Initiative = 4(Weapon Damage + Static Damage)+4(Weapon Damage + Static Damage)+(Weapon Damage + Static Damage).


Kthulhu wrote:
The way I see it, something is mythic if it profoundly impresses your "mythic sponsor", if you will. So something that a 1st level character could do that would impress (for example) Desna, wouldn't be nearly as impressive if it was accomplished by a 20th level character.

Level is a purely meta-game concept. So, gods have no concept of it. They simply know that "Edwin" is less impressive than "Jothrie". "Edwin" can't intuit divine mysteries as well as "Jothrie" can and, so, gets fewer spells.

To impress a god, then, has nothing to do with one's level and everything to do with one's actions.


7 people marked this as a favorite.

I thought the point of Mythic was to be "over the top".

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Albatoonoe wrote:
I thought the point of Mythic was to be "over the top".

*cigar*


A capped out 20/10 Barbarian can use all of his mythic feats and powers to get display of strength and 14 mule's strength, while raging, wearing mule back cords, an item that grants +6 enhancement bonus to strength, with all inherent bonuses can get an effective carrying capacity strength of 152 (17,448,304 tons over head)

Sure, you burned every possible mythic ability you have, but it's still possible.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Sauce987654321 wrote:

A capped out 20/10 Barbarian can use all of his mythic feats and powers to get display of strength and 14 mule's strength, while raging, wearing mule back cords, an item that grants +6 enhancement bonus to strength, with all inherent bonuses can get an effective carrying capacity strength of 152 (17,448,304 tons over head)

Sure, you burned every possible mythic ability you have, but it's still possible.

So that's how you build Atlas.

Shadow Lodge

Justin Rocket wrote:

Level is a purely meta-game concept. So, gods have no concept of it. They simply know that "Edwin" is less impressive than "Jothrie". "Edwin" can't intuit divine mysteries as well as "Jothrie" can and, so, gets fewer spells.

To impress a god, then, has nothing to do with one's level and everything to do with one's actions.

Except I think it's pretty likely that there's at least some concept of levels. After all, it's not like wizurd A's advancement differs from wizurd B's advancement.

Also, they're gods...they should have more of an insight into the workings of the universe (ie, the game system) than the average commoner.

Shadow Lodge

Albatoonoe wrote:
I thought the point of Mythic was to be "over the top".

I could have sworn I made exactly that post. But my history doesn't show it. Strange.

Shadow Lodge

Aelryinth wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

You don't receive them simultaneously, you receive them one at a time and make your selections one at a time. You don't get to accumulate them because the feat doesn't say you can't. You don't get to accumulate them because the feat doesn't say you CAN. No reading into feats that are abusable enough, thank you!

==Aelryinth

When you take the legendary item path ability, you apply all the powers your item is eligible for at that moment in time. You don't choose 1 trait, walk away, and choose another trait later. If I am tier 10, when I choose legendary item the 3rd time, I immediately receive 4 traits. All 4 of those traits take immediate effect. There is no separation in time.

More directly: RAW does not state I cannot apply multiple instances of spellcasting simultaneously. RAW makes not comment on the issue of timing at all.

Artanthos, you get to apply them EACH simultaneously AND INDEPENDENTLY. They don't suddenly agglomerate into one big batch of stuff all at once.

So yes, it gets Legendary abilties 1,2, and 3. It doesn't 1+2+3 = 4 JACKPOT wowza ownerz. If it said they would accumulate (hint: it doesn't) you'd be right.

You're playing with a very weird interpretation of the rules.

==Aelryinth

Woo, yeah, 2nd level spell 3/day plus a first level spell 1/day! So mythic and legendary.


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Also, as an example for being over the top, I present you two Mythic Champions.

One has uncanny grapple, which allows him to throw a grappled opponent 10 feat per tier in any direction. Once he does this, the other champion, with his aerial assault, can leap high up into the air, grab this guy, and slam him back into the ground.

It's like super hero professional wresting WITH DRAGONS.


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Albatoonoe wrote:

Also, as an example for being over the top, I present you two Mythic Champions.

One has uncanny grapple, which allows him to throw a grappled opponent 10 feat per tier in any direction. Once he does this, the other champion, with his aerial assault, can leap high up into the air, grab this guy, and slam him back into the ground.

It's like super hero professional wresting WITH DRAGONS.

awesome!


Mythic Eagle Eyes is pretty over the top on its own. Spend a point so you can ignore all perception check penalties due to distance? You can, literally, see the man on the moon.


Albatoonoe wrote:

Also, as an example for being over the top, I present you two Mythic Champions.

One has uncanny grapple, which allows him to throw a grappled opponent 10 feat per tier in any direction. Once he does this, the other champion, with his aerial assault, can leap high up into the air, grab this guy, and slam him back into the ground.

It's like super hero professional wresting WITH DRAGONS.

Gotta say, that sounds super fun.


If I want to play Superheroes, I play Champions or Cartoon Action Hour.
If I want to play ridiculous, I'll find a DBZ game.

I want to play a fantasy role playing game where the PCs are actually threatened by the monsters.


Vod Canockers wrote:

If I want to play Superheroes, I play Champions or Cartoon Action Hour.

If I want to play ridiculous, I'll find a DBZ game.

I don't see the issue. The mythic rules are an option to give campaigns a different feel, so just don't use them in your game.

Vod Canockers wrote:


I want to play a fantasy role playing game where the PCs are actually threatened by the monsters.

The Monsters can be Mythic too ;)


Glutton wrote:
Mmmmm dunno if its over the top, but you'd certainly know if there was a mythic baleful polymorph caster in your neighbourhood. "Pigs! You're all pigs!"

Willow reference! You officially win!


Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
MYTHIC TOZ wrote:
It's so over the top, I get an extra +1 on stuff I already get +1 to.
another +1? hardly an issue. 5% greater chance of success that is more likely to help in mythic encounters, because trash will be slaughtered like sheep anyway.

I think he was being sarcastic.


Vod Canockers wrote:

If I want to play Superheroes, I play Champions or Cartoon Action Hour.

If I want to play ridiculous, I'll find a DBZ game.

I want to play a fantasy role playing game where the PCs are actually threatened by the monsters.

If the players aren't threatened by monsters, that's really the GM's fault, not the game's. Even if you can throw a horse and rider 100 feet straight up in the air and precede to jump up and suplex it doesn't mean you can't be challenged.

And who says absurdly powerful heroes don't have a place in Swords and Sorcery stories?


Axial wrote:
Glutton wrote:
Mmmmm dunno if its over the top, but you'd certainly know if there was a mythic baleful polymorph caster in your neighbourhood. "Pigs! You're all pigs!"
Willow reference! You officially win!

HA! i thought i knew the line! awesome! i owe you a drink sir (or Ma'am) alcohol or not makes no difference to me:)

Shadow Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Mythic Meepo wrote:
I thought wild arcana worked much better in the playtest, where the wording implied that your swift action didn't cast the spell, it just gave you the ability to cast the spell. So you would have to spend a swift action to get the spell and then spend the normal casting time casting that spell.

Yeah, or at the very least like the heirophant version that IS a standard action.

I love the mytic rules and the idea that players can do things bordering on the ludicrous, like tag team wrestling dragons! I laso think the challenge is still there for PC and DM alike, just need to rethink your play style a little and really get to know the mythic rules if you want to use them. My issue with the arcana ability it has the power to render other casters moot in the party - One wizard or cleric can now do everything. That shifts the power in the party toward one member and lessens the fun for the other spellcasters. before it starts.

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