Vital Strike revisited

[Sir Thugsalot]

Considering all the hate this feat gets, you'd think it was nearly the worst option in the game. But it is? Let's crunch some mathy bits....

james maissen wrote:

Sir Thugsalot wrote:

Kurthnaga wrote:

I'm aware that Vital Striking is inferior to Full Attacking. My thought process was that Vital Strike was what I wanted to be doing when I couldn't full attack.

Bingo. We have a winner.

The best use of VS is by an Enlarged 2hPA fighter who has to move to attack (and is denied a charge).

The best use of VS is by a T-rex. for almost everyone else it is not worth the investment, certainly not a class that doesn't get a ton of bonus feats like the paladin.

Sure things like weapon focus, iron will, and the like don't look 'awesome', but in all honesty they deliver far more and far better than Vital strike.

I normally don't give any of those to a paladin. But VS isn't worse; and is arguably an awesome combat feat for those "now you suck" situations (see below).

Quote:

The Vital strike feat was a nice idea.. it is far too weak to be a suggestion. They were perhaps far too conservative when they made it for it to be a viable option.

A 2hPA-focused character does 4d6 on a move/attack with a greatsword, same as a large T-rex mount. VS applies to any weapon, including ranged weapons; and permits you to make the best of perpetual move-and-attack situations robbing you of full-attack capability.

Given an iconic +1/flaming greatsword wielded by a STR 18 character, he'll average 17.5 on a normal 2h chop. Vital Strike's extra two dice represent a 40% gain in average damage. Versus a target with DR5, Vital Strike's +7 represents a 56% improvement over the weaker base damage. Versus a target with DR10, 14.5 is a whopping 93% gain over 7.5.

In a scenario involving, say, an on-foot battle with a golem who ignores you while pursuing the squishy ally who triggered it (continually moving out of your threatened zone), Vital Strike compares favorably to Power Attack, where the greatsword attack ia +1/+1 attack/damage between BAB6 and BAB8 versus Power Attack, and +2/-2 attack/damage from BAB8 to BAB12.

Take a low-fantasy/cash-poor 15pt-buy campaign in which the PC in question has a STR of only 14 and sword-and-boards a +1 longsword: 2d8+2 is 69% better than 1d8+2. Versus DR5, a 2d8-3 Vital Strike attack is 400% better than 1d8-3 (which fails to penetrate 37.5% of the time).

-- A great many combat feats only kick in when everything is going your way and you're performing your signature "everything, including the kitchen sink" penultimate maneuver. Vital Strike, otoh, shines when you're nerfed, keeping you viable.

I think everyone agrees that Vital Strike is poorly worded; but for what it does, by-the-numbers it's a pretty good feat.

[Sir Thugsalot]

Other end of the "you suck" spectrum: an Enlarged greatsword barbarian with a raging STR of 26 who's Power Attacking at BAB8 versus a prone target. Everything is going his way...except for the annoyance of the soon-to-be-deceased being 15 feet away. *sigh*...move and Vital Strike.

Base damage: 3d6[enlarged]+12[2h]+9[PA]+3[+1/furious] = ~ 34.5

Vital Strike: adds another 3d6, for ~45 average, or a 30.4% gain over 34.5. (Actually it's a little bit lower since I'm doing quick arithmetic without factoring crits, but nonetheless it's quite a significant improvement even for a very damaging build.)

[Jacob Saltband]

Sir Thugsalot wrote:

Other end of the "you suck" spectrum: an Enlarged greatsword barbarian with a raging STR of 26 who's Power Attacking at BAB8 versus a prone target. Everything is going his way...except for the annoyance of the soon-to-be-deceased being 15 feet away. *sigh*...move and Vital Strike.

Base damage: 3d6[enlarged]+12[2h]+9[PA]+3[+1/furious] = ~ 34.5

Vital Strike: adds another 3d6, for ~45 average, or a 30.4% gain over 34.5. (Actually it's a little bit lower since I'm doing quick arithmetic without factoring crits, but nonetheless it's quite a significant improvement even for a very damaging build.)

Add lead blades to that combo and its really kool.

[bfobar]

I think its easier to analyze than that. Look at the weapon dice you're rolling (or just its average damage based on the dice) and then ask yourself, would I burn a feat to be able to do that on standard attacks? With a scimitar, you're looking at adding 3.5 damage to some attacks. There are better options that can give you nearly that on nearly all attacks.

Now an enlarged warrior with an impact greatsword? an extra 4d6 roll gets you an extra 14 damage on some attacks. I think that's still a lot and probably worth a feat. Heck, it's probably better than charging and getting the AC penalty.

Our group has a THF archtype fighter with vital strike, and vital strike stacked with overhand chop (it works) has been the character's "attention getter" with a single hit at level 6 often clearing 50 points of damage with no crit threat and usually still hitting on a roll of 2-4 (when buffed up a bit).

[Jamie Charlan]

Aegis 6 marksman[sniper] 14, Large Gravity Double Crossbow [Augmented to Huge], Gravity Bow'd: 1d8>2d6>3d6>4d6
Devastating Greater Vital Strike while focused - expend second focus on augmented shot: 6d6+6[Devastating]+5[ENH]+4[Competence]+5[Collision]+18d6[GVS]
Just on its own an average of 208 at least. 104 per bolt. Other damage also possible to add.

It's not as though everyone thinks Vital Strike doesn't work or the like. It's just that since you need to not be full attacking as full attacking is still going to be better, Vital Strike only helps IF you have no way to get your movement while full-attacking, AND you don't need to, say, reload your weapon with a move action, AND you need to be moving right now, AND it takes oversized weapons to give a significant bonus, AND you have to be able to invest a good three or four feats into this AND you have to be getting your output through standard attacks as opposed to something that requires its own action.

That's a lot of situational for the boost you get - which is substantial, mind - especially when even with all this it does not come close to the multiattacking damage you would do with a [non-reload-requiring] different weapon with possibly just one [PA/DA] feat to it, thanks to haste and levelling. Spend just as many feats [TWF or Rapid/manyshot] and it's left in the dust most of the time.

It's that 'most of the time' at the end there that hurts it. Because you either had to build entirely around Vital Strike, OR it's worthless compared to your options without it.

[Crosswind]

Vital Strike is sort of like the cleave line - it makes you better when you're at your worst, with only a standard action.

Except that, unlike Cleave, it doesn't really let you tackle any scenarios you couldn't tackle already. If there's a single foe, and you need single target damage, you're probably going to be able to line up a full attack this round or the next. Where as the cleave line at least makes you a terrifying metal fireball that can potentially do way more AOE damage than you'd put out with a full attack.

-Cross

[notabot]

Crosswind wrote:

Vital Strike is sort of like the cleave line - it makes you better when you're at your worst, with only a standard action.

Except that, unlike Cleave, it doesn't really let you tackle any scenarios you couldn't tackle already. If there's a single foe, and you need single target damage, you're probably going to be able to line up a full attack this round or the next. Where as the cleave line at least makes you a terrifying metal fireball that can potentially do way more AOE damage than you'd put out with a full attack.

-Cross

I know when I've used vital strike and my players have its been in situations where you only need 1 attack, either to finish off a injured foe (from the ranged attacks) or to 1 shot mooks.

I know my tactics domain cleric hits hard enough to kill outright many enemies (channeled smite, destructive smite, vital strike, spell storing...) all of those add up, a feat that at worst adds 2d6 damage to my normal attack pattern can't be called "bad". I don't full attack all that often since I have better things to do and the 2nd attack doesn't hit all that often either. Then again the tactics cleric doesn't actually have to take the feat to use it if it doesn't mind using that action to gain the feat for a round.

[chaoseffect]

If you're using Mythic Rules, then Mythic Vital Strike makes the Vital Strike tree worthwhile. One standard action to deal the damage of all of your regular BAB attacks in one giant hit? Sign me up. Screw needing Pounce and enemy DR. Extra fun with the Initiative Ability that lets you take an extra non-spell standard action in a turn.

[AndIMustMask]

also, you can vital strike+bestial leaper on barbarians/viking fighters/wild stalker rangers/rage domain (clerics/divine servant paladins) for a sort of 'spring attack' setup, if for some reason thats a thing you want.

[Havoq]

Barbarian.
Vital Strike
Furious Finish
EWP: Bastard Sword
Bastard Sword(Large), Impact(on weapon)
Enlarge

[Tim Statler]

Another good time to use vital strike is when the first attack needs a 10+ on the die to hit. This means the second attack will be at 15+, and the third at a Nat 20 only. Since the second and third have a low chance of hitting, you get at least some of the damage from them on the vital strikes first attack.

[Cao Phen]

Highest damage number from a Vital Strike'd weapon is actually a Huge Aklys. This is ignoring critical hit chance.

A Greatsword (A Two-Handed Martial weapon for medium creatures) can reach up to Huge damage. This is using the Medium Damage Template, an Impact Weapon, and Enlarge Person. This results in 4d6 Damage before Vital Strike. Vital Strike Average Dice is 28. Furious Finish Vital Strike is 48.

A Large Bastard Sword (A One-Handed Exotic weapon for medium creatures) can reach up to Gargantuan damage. This is using the Large Damage Template, an Impact Weapon, and Enlarge Person. This results in 4d8 Damage before Vital Strike. Vital Strike Average Dice is 36. Furious Finish Vital Strike is 64.

A Huge Aklys (A Light Exotic weapon for medium creatures) can reach up to Collosal damage. This is using the Huge Damage Template, an Impact Weapon, and Enlarge Person. This results in 6d6 Damage before Vital Strike. Vital Strike Average Dice is 42. Furious Finish Vital Strike is 72.

Both the Greatsword and Bastard Sword has a critical range of 19-20/x2, while the Aklys has a critical range of 20/x2, so it is your call on how you would like to run things.

[Ravingdork]

Or when you are a raging behemoth hippopotamus*.

*:

An automatic 310 damage with a single chomp is pretty good, no?

[Cao Phen]

Very Good, though only 4/day with the Druid Strongjaw. Now if you had another person using a wand of Strongjaw, fun times =).

[AndIMustMask]

could grab a wand familiar from a level of wizard or sage sorc i suppose.

or with three levels of magus and the familiar arcana.

[thebigragu]

It's handy from the back of a moving mount, where the pc is only allowed one attack.

[Marthkus]

Look at Mythic Vital Strike.

At high levels, it becomes fullattacking as a standard action in a single auto-hit strike.

When in non mythic it's still a decent plus 21 to damage on standard action attacks for any medium characters wielding a great sword.

[MrSin]

Marthkus wrote:

When in non mythic it's still a decent plus 21 to damage on standard action attacks for any medium characters wielding a great sword.

7 average per feat sunk into it and using a greatsword. 21 only if your level 17 and dumped 3/9(1/3) feats into it.

I'm conflicted in saying it has its uses when moving. I'd much rather see something that doesn't take an investment. Its also still not that great if its only 21, (but don't worry, if you buff yourself with outside resources it gets better?)

[Marthkus]

21 damage is at least a 40% increase to damage

If you are lucky enough to get 1 tier of mythic, vital strike becomes 300% increased damage on a single move standard action attack, and gives you a reason to never full attack again.

[Zahariel]

With Mythic Vital Strike, a Two-Handed Fighter 20/Mythic 10 with a scythe can do a completely obscene amount of damage (around 1,100 points, depending on the stats) in a single round.

Which is how high a PC would go in Wrath of the Righteous.

[Marthkus]

Oddly mythic vital strike crit for a great sword does 6 times normal damage.

The damage from mythic vital strike cannot crit without more feats, meaning it will only ever add 3 attacks worth of damage to your standard action.

[Ravingdork]

Cao Phen wrote:

Very Good, though only 4/day with the Druid Strongjaw. Now if you had another person using a wand of Strongjaw, fun times =).

Strongjaw lasts for minutes. Wildshape hours.

She can make that chomp literally every other round.

Even without strongjaw she's capable of dealing 119 damage automatically. There's nothing living that would scoff at that.

[Azten]

Cast an extended Strongjaw for double the duration or, perhaps better yet, create an Amulet of StrongJaw that effects only one type of natural attack and have it always function.

[Cao Phen]

Ravingdork wrote:

Cao Phen wrote:

Very Good, though only 4/day with the Druid Strongjaw. Now if you had another person using a wand of Strongjaw, fun times =).

Strongjaw lasts for minutes. Wildshape hours.

She can make that chomp literally every other round.

Even without strongjaw she's capable of dealing 119 damage automatically. There's nothing living that would scoff at that.

Of course. I know that Strongjaw lasts for 8 minutes (your driud level), as well as your Wild Shape can last for the whole day.

I am usually placing my situation in PFS perspectives, since that is all that I play. If the example of the Aklys Barbarian could be expanded, it would take a level in Oracle to get the Lame Curse, 3 levels in Two-Handed Fighter, and maybe a few levels in Ragechemist. Overhand Chop the Improved Vital Strike while chugging the Mutagen can result in 108+ 2x STR + Any other Modifier that is not calculated, every round. I am not familiar with the amount of gold at high levels, so I am uncertain what can be purchaced.

Oh, don't get me worng, your character is crazy, Emporium crazy. Just giving ideas of other varieties of crazy-crazy. =)

[Sir Thugsalot]

Crosswind wrote:

Vital Strike is sort of like the cleave line - it makes you better when you're at your worst, with only a standard action.

Except that, unlike Cleave, it doesn't really let you tackle any scenarios you couldn't tackle already.

Having played a lot of PFS, I'd say that infantry are denied full melee attacks at least 50% of the time; and encounters tailored to prevent full-attacks are the ones most likely to kill PCs at tables not ideally equipped for all situations.

[blackbloodtroll]

See here for more ideas on your "big hit" build.

[AndIMustMask]

Zahariel wrote:

With Mythic Vital Strike, a Two-Handed Fighter 20/Mythic 10 with a scythe can do a completely obscene amount of damage (around 1,100 points, depending on the stats) in a single round.

Which is how high a PC would go in Wrath of the Righteous.

oh? WotW is set to take you from 1/0 to 20/10? sweet.

[Ravingdork]

Cao Phen wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Cao Phen wrote:

Very Good, though only 4/day with the Druid Strongjaw. Now if you had another person using a wand of Strongjaw, fun times =).

Strongjaw lasts for minutes. Wildshape hours.

She can make that chomp literally every other round.

Even without strongjaw she's capable of dealing 119 damage automatically. There's nothing living that would scoff at that.

Of course. I know that Strongjaw lasts for 8 minutes (your driud level), as well as your Wild Shape can last for the whole day.

I am usually placing my situation in PFS perspectives, since that is all that I play. If the example of the Aklys Barbarian could be expanded, it would take a level in Oracle to get the Lame Curse, 3 levels in Two-Handed Fighter, and maybe a few levels in Ragechemist. Overhand Chop the Improved Vital Strike while chugging the Mutagen can result in 108+ 2x STR + Any other Modifier that is not calculated, every round. I am not familiar with the amount of gold at high levels, so I am uncertain what can be purchaced.

Oh, don't get me worng, your character is crazy, Emporium crazy. Just giving ideas of other varieties of crazy-crazy. =)

I've noticed a growing trend where I will make a crazy powerful character build that few, if any, have thought of before. Then, suddenly, the race is on to top it in some way. As a result, I've personally laid the groundwork for some of the most powerful Pathfinder builds around these forums over the years.

Fills me with warm fuzzies.

[Pupsocket]

Sir Thugsalot wrote:

Given an iconic +1/flaming greatsword wielded by a STR 18 character, he'll average 17.5 on a normal 2h chop. Vital Strike's extra two dice represent a 40% gain in average damage. Versus a target with DR5, Vital Strike's +7 represents a 56% improvement over the weaker base damage. Versus a target with DR10, 14.5 is a whopping 93% gain over 7.5.

Nope. He'll do 23.5, at least.

[blackbloodtroll]

Ravingdork wrote:

Fills me with warm fuzzies.

Ah, rule 34.

[Cao Phen]

Ravingdork wrote:

I've noticed a growing trend where I will make a crazy powerful character build that few, if any, have thought of before. Then, suddenly, the race is on to top it in some way. As a result, I've personally laid the groundwork for some of the most powerful Pathfinder builds around these forums over the years.

Fills me with warm fuzzies.

To tell you the truth, I only seen about 3 of your character templates. I feel that if I want to make some random guy with an idea, I should run with it myself and don't try to follow in another's shadow. It brings a kind of personal touch to what random smuck I make, and it has got me pretty well off for quite some time. =)

[Alexander Kilcoyne]

Melee full attack- you are rarely expected to be able to pull it off. Unless your comparing to vital strike, of course.

^^ This is my problem with vital strike debate on this forum. People seem to be trying to compare it to a full attack and saying it is weaker than a full attack. Of course it is, it was never meant to compete in the same situation...

My personal cheap fix is to have it auto-upgrade up the feat chain at the appropriate BAB. Its working out for my Slumbering Tsar campaign; a couple of the characters have taken it already at level 7 and seem pleased with the added versatility.

[Ravingdork]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Fills me with warm fuzzies.

Ah, rule 34.

What is rule 34?

Cao Phen wrote:

To tell you the truth, I only seen about 3 of your character templates.

You know what they say: One is nothing, two is a coincidence, but three is a trend. (Or something like that.)

[blackbloodtroll]

Ravingdork wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Fills me with warm fuzzies.

Ah, rule 34.

What is rule 34?

To meet messageboard rules, I will just ask that you Google it.

[Sir Thugsalot]

Havoq wrote:

Barbarian.

Vital Strike
Furious Finish
EWP: Bastard Sword
Bastard Sword(Large), Impact(on weapon)
Enlarge

Furious Finish... *spit* -- Now there's a trap feat I'll never take in a million years. *Way* too situational to ever be worth a damn; and just begging you to do something really stupid at exactly the wrong moment.

Anyway....

Large bastardsword... 2d8
...Lead Blades /or/ Impact (they don't stack): 3d8
...Enlarge Person: 4d8
...Vital Strike: <drum-roll> ....8d8

If you're wondering whether the large weapon is worth the feat, it's comparable to Power Attack: -2 attack for +1 damage per better weapon die. E.g., 8d8 is +8 damage over 8d6 from a greatsword. The large weapon doesn't really shine unless you're Vital Striking (or you never miss).

[Sir Thugsalot]

Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:

Melee full attack- you are rarely expected to be able to pull it off. Unless your comparing to vital strike, of course.

^^ This is my problem with vital strike debate on this forum. People seem to be trying to compare it to a full attack and saying it is weaker than a full attack. Of course it is, it was never meant to compete in the same situation...

Agreed/

Quote:

My personal cheap fix is to have it auto-upgrade up the feat chain at the appropriate BAB. Its working out for my Slumbering Tsar campaign; a couple of the characters have taken it already at level 7 and seem pleased with the added versatility.

Given my argument in the OP (that VS is actually a very good feat), I don't really see the rationale for granting free upgrades to the Improved and Greater variety unless you're playing a superpowered campaign in which fighters also get free WF and WS upgrades.

[Cao Phen]

Are you sure Furious Finish is situational? If combined correctly, it simply maximizes your damage, per swing.

Let us say you are a barbarian of 8th level, at level 9, you take a level of Oracle and obtain the Lame Curse. The level equivalent of the curse is now 5, which makes you immune to fatigue. With that, you now have every round you rage a Furious Finish.

[bfobar]

Sir Thugsalot wrote:

Havoq wrote:

Barbarian.

Vital Strike
Furious Finish
EWP: Bastard Sword
Bastard Sword(Large), Impact(on weapon)
Enlarge

Furious Finish... *spit* -- Now there's a trap feat I'll never take in a million years. *Way* too situational to ever be worth a damn; and just begging you to do something really stupid at exactly the wrong moment.

Anyway....

Large bastardsword... 2d8
...Lead Blades /or/ Impact (they don't stack): 3d8
...Enlarge Person: 4d8
...Vital Strike: <drum-roll> ....8d8

If you're wondering whether the large weapon is worth the feat, it's comparable to Power Attack: -2 attack for +1 damage per better weapon die. E.g., 8d8 is +8 damage over 8d6 from a greatsword. The large weapon doesn't really shine unless you're Vital Striking (or you never miss).

Furious finish? If you're vital striking with that bastard sword, you gain 28 points of damage on your hit over the average. If you turned on rage just to do that, you take the following penalties for only 2 rounds from the fatigue: -1att, -1 dmg, -1AC, -1reflex, -1cmb, -2cmd, and cant run or charge. If whatever you are hitting survived, you can probably full attack them on the next round with those penalties, the only important ones being the -1 att and -1 dmg. Whoop-de-do, its not much worse than the round after a charge. A friendly cleric could even tap you with a lesser restoration and just end the fatigue.

Basically, lets assume that the fighter(with a barbarian dip) or barbarian has that bastard sword and for whatever reason normally does 4d8+24 when enlarged with lead blades or impact. Without vital strike, moving up and hitting a monster (which happens often) averages 42 damage. With vital strike, it averages 60 damage. With furious finish, it is always 88 damage. It actually out damages two full attacks hitting.

So the breakdown is vital strike is adding +18 damage with no penalties to these standard action + move action rounds, and furious finish would add an additional +28 damage with a penalty for another feat for this fellow with the buffs and the large bastard sword.

My conclusion is if your build hits hard with a big weapon, vital stike is worth it, and if you rage, furious finish is also worth it...unless you can always just full attack and can reliably get 3 to hit.

[AndIMustMask]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Fills me with warm fuzzies.

Ah, rule 34.

What is rule 34?

To meet messageboard rules, I will just ask that you Google it.

except that simply googling rule 34 will just show him a lot of porn with little context, and may give the wrong (if very close) idea.

@ravingdork: rule 34 of the internet is generally "if it exists, someone has made adult material of it."

[Alexander Kilcoyne]

Sir Thugsalot wrote:

Given my argument in the OP (that VS is actually a very good feat), I don't really see the rationale for granting free upgrades to the Improved and Greater variety unless you're playing a superpowered campaign in which fighters also get free WF and WS upgrades.

The baddies get the upgrade too ;).

[Aelryinth]

so, on these damage comparisons, why are you comparing large bastard swords sized up to medium greatswords sized up?

An honest comparison is the 4-32 Bastard sword is being compared to a 6-36 damage greatsword. And you're ignorng the potential cost of EWP.

Mythic Vital strike is what Vital Strikes should be. Keep in mind a very key factor...you only get one crit chance wiht a vital strike. You get considerably more with a full attack action...and Vital Strikes don't get extra attacks from haste.

Mathematically, you can almost guarantee yourself a crit chance every round with full attacks at high levels, which can activate crit feats, do additional damage, etc. With a Vital Strike, it's one and done.

Pretty sure once you figure in crit chances, full attacks still do more damage in Mythic, especially with Haste and other things granting extra attacks. But YES, Mythic is what Vital Strike should be like.

My Vital Strike fix would be to expand the damage increase to the enhancement bonus on the weapon, and any damage from feats (Power attack, weapon spec) and weapon training. That removes Str and Smites and FE, wildly abusable damage buffs, from the equation, but leaves fighters an edge with the technique. As long as you include Power attack, Vital Strike becomes useful, and enhancement bonus makes the gravy smoo000th.

===Aelryinth

[voska66]

I've been running my games with house rule that Vital Strike is usable in Full Attack only on the first attack. Also usable with Cleave on the first attack and with a Charge and Spring Attack.

It's not over powered and makes the feat chain quite useful. Vital strike as it is really is not worth 3 feats. If were 1 feat that scaled with BAB then it would be.

[Aelryinth]

Well, another of the problems with Vital Strike IS that it is useless in a full attack.

Here's another suggestion, and it makes Vital Strike something you can take at level 1!

If you declare a Vital Strike and take a full attack action, you gain a +2 to hit, to AC or to the saving throw of your choice, until the next round. If you give up iterative attacks to do this, the bonus is at +1 per iterative.

So, if you're in a situation where you can't move anyways, and you don't want to do multiple attacks, you can get off a pretty hefty single attack without penalty, or defend yourself really well.

A secondary benefit should be that when you use a Vital Strike, your threat range is doubled (and with keen/imp crit, tripled). This helps match the increased crit chance of a full attack, too!

==Aelryinth

[Jamie Charlan]

Since doublers won't stack up, how about this:
Vital Strike grants +2 to hit

Improved Vital Strike grants +2 deflection to AC and improves the vital strike's base threat range by 1

Greater Vital Strike increases the hit and AC bonuses to +4 each.

Additionally, Deadly Aim oughta give +3 [two-hander style] per -1 to weapons with loading actions. Feats that reduce the loading time of a weapon do not eliminate this bonus.

[AndIMustMask]

Jamie Charlan wrote:

Since doublers won't stack up, how about this:

Vital Strike grants +2 to hit

Improved Vital Strike grants +2 deflection to AC and improves the vital strike's base threat range by 1

Greater Vital Strike increases the hit and AC bonuses to +4 each.

Additionally, Deadly Aim oughta give +3 [two-hander style] per -1 to weapons with loading actions. Feats that reduce the loading time of a weapon do not eliminate this bonus.

would make crossbows not entirely dumb, and guns even MORE powerful. not sure what to think of that.

[Loren Peterson]

Seems to me that Vital Strike is a feat most useful for creatures (and characters that become such creatures) that don't get iteratives with natural attacks.

[Jamie Charlan]

AndIMustMask wrote:

would make crossbows not entirely dumb, and guns even MORE powerful. not sure what to think of that.

If you stay away from "double-firing full-attack TWF double-pistols with weapon cords" [we always assumed at our table that like manyshot only the first attack from the pistol gets twin shots] the guns are pretty average - tis no bow for certain. Certainly not an issue with Deadly Aim if it's being used for Vital Strike for sure.

For crossbows, the only thing remotely close to viable is the minotaur double crossbow, which you need to be large or have powerful-build to use right in the first place. This could bring the twin-bolt shot fully optimized to nearly 3/4 of a manyshot volley - more mobile but also still more feat intensive though. But at least it would suck less.

[Aelryinth]

Well, technically, you should just chuck the whole thing out the window if you look at the full attack options.

Really, Full Attack before level 6 is wha? for most builds except twf. There's no benefit to it.

An iterative should be something you spend.

So, if a full attack is an attack where you don't move and gain some extra benefit

Then iteratives are just things you 'spend'. You can spend them for an extra attack at -5, or increasing the damage you deal with a single attack AND increasing the other benefits you get for not moving.

A Full attack should be a full tactical option, not just a way to get more attacks.

==Aelryinth

[MrSin]

Aelryinth wrote:

Well, technically, you should just chuck the whole thing out the window if you look at the full attack options.

Really, Full Attack before level 6 is wha? for most builds except twf. There's no benefit to it.

An iterative should be something you spend.

So, if a full attack is an attack where you don't move and gain some extra benefit

Then iteratives are just things you 'spend'. You can spend them for an extra attack at -5, or increasing the damage you deal with a single attack AND increasing the other benefits you get for not moving.

A Full attack should be a full tactical option, not just a way to get more attacks.

Well, if you want to try that you may think about just redoing the way a full attack works completely.

[Psyren]

Vital Strike works with Flyby Attack (though not Spring Attack) IIRC. I would let it work with both myself.