RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I'm with you on the weapon cords... but the ioun torch? Really? Every caster (okay, except rangers and paladins) can get a hands-free light source with a light cantrip. What's wrong with letting non-casters have it too?If the GMing community really doesn't like these things that much, please cut down the table variation and get them banned. That's actually preferable in many ways to having on the list of things to ask every GM I sit down with.I am actually of the opinion that they should be, as well. I think that's where this thread began to derail, so thank you for pointing it out.
Mike: ban 'em, would you?
And while you're at it would you take a long, hard look at ioun torches and weapon cords? (-;
The simple fact that casters no longer HAVE to memorize light. I can't even remember the last time one did, seeing as everyone around the table now has a slotless, permanent light source at the LOW LOW PRICE! of 75 gp. One that, by the way, has a caster level of 12 for creation requirement, prompting many an argument about the fact that they DO, in fact, trump deeper darkness.
Because, you know, show me where it says they DON'T...
For 50gp anyone can get their friendly party cleric to cast continual flame on one of their items, and have it last between sessions.*
I don't see how spending an extra 25gp is really breaking anything. It's just forcing you to put it on a dull grey ioun stone. Is it really that big of a deal?*only one such casting at a time, of course.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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The simple fact that casters no longer HAVE to memorize light. I can't even remember the last time one did, seeing as everyone around the table now has a slotless, permanent light source at the LOW LOW PRICE! of 75 gp.Guess I just disagree that replacing a cantrip with a magic item is a bad thing.
One that, by the way, has a caster level of 12 for creation requirement, prompting many an argument about the fact that they DO, in fact, trump deeper darkness.
Because, you know, show me where it says they DON'T...
Okay:
Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.Ioun torches entirely fail to increase the light level in an area of darkness, because they are not of a higher spell level. (As an aside, it's remarkable how often people think it's CL instead of SL; was it different in a previous edition or something?)
Fair. I shot that from the hip, and shouldn't have. I'm busy with too many things at this point to try to keep the correct rules in my mind long enough to apply them properly in a serious debate.
For the record: I still think ioun torches are silly at their price...
PS - I am also still of the opinion that the old rule of "Duration of 'Permanent' is not available to PCs" was a good rule.
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The simple fact that casters no longer HAVE to memorize light. I can't even remember the last time one did, seeing as everyone around the table now has a slotless, permanent light source at the LOW LOW PRICE! of 75 gp.Guess I just disagree that replacing a cantrip with a magic item is a bad thing.
One that, by the way, has a caster level of 12 for creation requirement, prompting many an argument about the fact that they DO, in fact, trump deeper darkness.
Because, you know, show me where it says they DON'T...
Okay:
Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.Ioun torches entirely fail to increase the light level in an area of darkness, because they are not of a higher spell level. (As an aside, it's remarkable how often people think it's CL instead of SL; was it different in a previous edition or something?)
I thought that ioun torch was effectively continual flame. Never mind, I see it's level 2 on the wizard chart. Darkness, how I hate thee.
So when my cleric casts it, it works, but the item gets boned. Just great. There is no logic in this place sometimes.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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The simple fact that casters no longer HAVE to memorize light. I can't even remember the last time one did, seeing as everyone around the table now has a slotless, permanent light source at the LOW LOW PRICE! of 75 gp.Guess I just disagree that replacing a cantrip with a magic item is a bad thing.
One that, by the way, has a caster level of 12 for creation requirement, prompting many an argument about the fact that they DO, in fact, trump deeper darkness.
Because, you know, show me where it says they DON'T...
Okay:
Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.Ioun torches entirely fail to increase the light level in an area of darkness, because they are not of a higher spell level. (As an aside, it's remarkable how often people think it's CL instead of SL; was it different in a previous edition or something?)I thought that ioun torch was effectively continual flame. Never mind, I see it's level 2 on the wizard chart. Darkness, how I hate thee.
So when my cleric casts it, it works, but the item gets boned. Just great. There is no logic in this place sometimes.
Could just ban 'em and make life easy. d-;
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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We've already dialed back on Heirloom Weapons. If we ban spring-loaded wrist sheaths, who will buy copies of Adventurers Armory?
Druids who want to wear Leaf Armo(u)r, but who don't have a copy of the Inner Sea World Guide?
Most of the other good stuff (M/W backpack, Bladeguard, ...) also shows up in the APG and/or UE
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Please let's not ban common gear like SLWS and ioun torches. These ban discussions are the reason we can't have nice things like QRS and bracers of falcon's aim.
I realize that the squeaky wheels who post here complaining about these things are the ones who inevitably get the grease in the form of bans. Please realize that there are a ton of players who are justifiably disappointed when they pick up a book like UE, find this cool item, and then learn it's on a ban list because some guys got up in arms about it back in 2011.
Nobody ever stopped playing PFS because of a SLWS.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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We've already dialed back on Heirloom Weapons. If we ban spring-loaded wrist sheaths, who will buy copies of Adventurers Armory?Druids who want to wear Leaf Armo(u)r, but who don't have a copy of the Inner Sea World Guide?
Most of the other good stuff (M/W backpack, Bladeguard, ...) also shows up in the APG and/or UE
Due to the ridiculous amount of errata, and the 'porting of anything good over to other books, no one buys them, anyway. I've had two sitting on my shelf forever. Even 50% off sales couldn't get rid of them.
May as well just remove the book from the list of available resources. Happily, that would solve all kinds of problem. :-D
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Please let's not ban common gear like SLWS and ioun torches. These ban discussions are the reason we can't have nice things like QRS and bracers of falcon's aim.
I realize that the squeaky wheels who post here complaining about these things are the ones who inevitably get the grease in the form of bans. Please realize that there are a ton of players who are justifiably disappointed when they pick up a book like UE, find this cool item, and then learn it's on a ban list because some guys got up in arms about it back in 2011.
Nobody ever stopped playing PFS because of a SLWS.
Man, I'm a "squeaky wheel" now? When did that I happen? I thought I was one of the reasonable ones...
Ooo! Wait! You left weapon cords out. Does that mean you're okay banning that one? I'll take one out of three.
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But point #1 is making you reevaluate your reasonableness, isn't it? And, even if it does take the bracer slot, you're thinking to yourself, "Hm. How many times has my ranger wanted that gravity bow wand as a swift? How much would it mean to be able to buff, move, then full attack the following round for my fighter? How much does it mean for me to be able to not have to MEMORIZE breath of life, actually?" Those are all pretty good deals. Especially at 5gp...
Not particularly no. The 5 gold item is not magical, so having it cost more than 1 or 2 hundred gold would feel awkward in a world where (it seems to me) only magical items cost tons of gold. I don't see the need to make it prohibitively expensive, given how scrolls and wands work (CL checks or fail for spells you can't cast).
I don't see the need to make memorizing BoL a torturous decision. One of the MAJOR POINTS Of scrolls is to have consumables for the spells that are situationally useful, not generally so. BoL fits that situational tag brilliantly. I'm a melee Cleric. Having to choose between Righteous Might and Breath of Life is not a decision I feel that I should have to deal with if I pay the money to have the scroll.
But also, it's an item that is simply a vehicle for an 1100g consumable. It gives me no personal benefit. Given my interpretation of the slot rules (incorrect up to this point or not), the SLWS hinders me or has hindered me from giving myself a benefit in the bracer slot, simply to be able to be helpful to the party when things go bad.
People that use the sheath as a way to quickly buff with wands, scrolls or potions in combat, they still have to use a standard to cast from wands or scrolls and therefore, need to spend a whole round to buff. As for potions, I didn't realize they could be long and thin like that. I feel like GMs could do interesting things with a potion on a wrist sheath. Sunder potion, anyone? ;)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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TBH I'd be irritated if SLWS was banned, but I'd really be OK with weapon cords.
I'm not going to start a messageboard crusade to get them banned, though--there are a lot of players who really like them, even if I think they are, as the French say, le fromage.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I could argue using a scroll of BoL with a SLWS would be one of those cases of broken for the right reasons.And there are many people who I know and respect that share the same opinion. I do not. I think it trivializes the need to learn and understand good tactics. It's my opinion that too many of these "easy" solutions to serious consequences leads to ill-prepared adventurers.
Then your problem isn't with a SLWS, its with BoL because nothing is stopping that same Cleric from preparing that spell and using it to do what you were just complaining about. All the BoL+SLWS does is, for 1,230 GP, to allow him to not waist a prepared slot on one of those 'emergency' spells that people commonly keep on scrolls because they only get used less than 10% of the time, but when you need them you need them. Thus, taking BoL+SLWS instead of putting it in a prepared slot IS good tactics.
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Then your problem isn't with a SLWS, its with BoL because nothing is stopping that same Cleric from preparing that spell and using it to do what you were just complaining about. All the BoL+SLWS does is, for 1,230 GP, to allow him to not waist a prepared slot on one of those 'emergency' spells that people commonly keep on scrolls because they only get used less than 10% of the time, but when you need them you need them. Thus, taking BoL+SLWS instead of putting it in a prepared slot IS good tactics.
I have no problems with breath of life, but thanks for telling me that I do.
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To be fair with Kyle, A cleric using BOL at 9th level is probably what is intended. The difference is I have seen SLWS used so that non-clerics/oracles, or <9th level characters getting to use the spell (with appropriate CL or UMD checks). I myself have a scroll of BOL carried by my Lyrakien Azata with a SLWS for when a GM allows it, and I myself can't do anything but agree that it's cheese of the stinkiest kind. But I will just have her carry it on her hand if the GM has a problem with it.
If you think a cleric preparing BoL is a wasted slot, then I don't know what to tell you. There will be situations where you just can't read a scroll in.
Said cleric has other options if he REALLY wants that scroll:
1. gloves of storing
2. carry it around in his hand the whole time
3. put it in a haversack and go hug the barbarian the whole time.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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To be fair with Kyle, A cleric using BOL at 9th level is probably what is intended. The difference is I have seen SLWS used so that non-clerics/oracles, or <9th level characters getting to use the spell (with appropriate CL or UMD checks). I myself have a scroll of BOL carried by my Lyrakien Azata with a SLWS for when a GM allows it, and I myself can't do anything but agree that it's cheese of the stinkiest kind.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you're saying that using scrolls and the UMD skill in exactly the manner put forth in the CRB is different than "what is intended" and is "cheese of the stinkiest kind".
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you're saying that using scrolls and the UMD skill in exactly the manner put forth in the CRB is different than "what is intended" and is "cheese of the stinkiest kind".
Naw, the cheese was about having my azata with UMD and SLWS carrying around multiple BOL scrolls.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Then your problem isn't with a SLWS, its with BoL because nothing is stopping that same Cleric from preparing that spell and using it to do what you were just complaining about. All the BoL+SLWS does is, for 1,230 GP, to allow him to not waist a prepared slot on one of those 'emergency' spells that people commonly keep on scrolls because they only get used less than 10% of the time, but when you need them you need them. Thus, taking BoL+SLWS instead of putting it in a prepared slot IS good tactics.I have no problems with breath of life, but thanks for telling me that I do.
Then why don't you explain what you said then because I see no way how a SLWS by itself can do anything to prevent the results of poor tactics, but I definitely see how BoL can.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So if Free actions can provoke, rarely, then certainly swift actions could. And Table 8-2 never shows a free action that provokes, so perhaps.......Off the top of my head, the Rogue Talent: Stand Up is a free action which provokes attacks of opportunity.
Most free actions and swift actions are either Ex, Su, or specify whether or not they provoke. Not all do, I believe there are some items in UE that do not indicate whether or not they provoke. But using a magic item doesn't provoke by default.
I could say they always tell you when it deviates, but they don't. There are magic items in UE that say they do not provoke.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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Seems a bit......irresponsible to have a level 9 cleric and not have some way to usefully deploy BoL. It's not quite as simple as not preparing the spell. But as I said, this is a table variation that's easy enough to adapt to.The whole point is for a divine caster to be able to know or prepare something interesting. There is no net difference, other than how miserable you want to make divine casters to play.Please define which spells are interesting to all players and which are not. Don't want to prepare breath of life? Don't.
um.. Channeled Revival anyone? Breath of Life in a 30 foot burst.
on topic: SLWS just seem too good for 5 gp. *shrug*
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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The SLWS can definitely help prevent the results of poor planning. My sorcerer uses his for a Wand of Grease (in case he gets grappled) and a Wand of Obscuring Mist (in case of magical darkness, enemies with reach weapons, or overwhelming ranged attackers).
I would submit that it is the Wands that prevent the results, not the SLWS, as both of those can be used for the same purpose without a SLWS. The SLWS just makes them easier to use.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Obscuring Mist, not necessarily. If being riddled at range, I want to retrieve the wand, activate it, and move. Not moving means they can blindly shoot where I was.
If you don't have the SLWS, you draw the wand, activate it, and take a 5ft step. If the archers want to fire blindly, they now have to pick one of 9 squares, and then face the 50% miss chance after that. That's about a 5.5% chance of having their attack roll even matter. I submit that this is not materially different than getting to move multiple spaces after activation.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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um.. Channeled Revival anyone? Breath of Life in a 30 foot burst.on topic: SLWS just seem too good for 5 gp. *shrug*
* shrug *
With an unarmed strike I can do 1d3 non-lethal damage while critting only on a 20 and provoking an AoO and not threatening adjacent squares. For a mere 2 GP I can buy a mundane dagger that does 1d4 lethal damage, crits on a 19-20, doesn't provoke an AoO and threatens adjacent squares. That's ridiculously cheap compared to spending a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike and works better.
*shrug*
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Also, I don't think that Feat works that way. It just says you can use 3 uses of channel energy to effectively cast Breath of Life.um.. Channeled Revival anyone? Breath of Life in a 30 foot burst.
Relevant. Range is 30 ft., single target.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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Also, I don't think that Feat works that way. It just says you can use 3 uses of channel energy to effectively cast Breath of Life.um.. Channeled Revival anyone? Breath of Life in a 30 foot burst.
Check the FAQ. It uses the range of Channel and applies the effect of Breath of Life i.e. your 6d6+ of channeling can bring someone back from the dead within 1 round. It also changes channel to a full round action that provokes AoOs.
Channeled Revival: What is the range of this ability?
It uses the range of your channel energy ability.—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/09/13
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Relevant. Range is 30 ft., single target.Also, I don't think that Feat works that way. It just says you can use 3 uses of channel energy to effectively cast Breath of Life.um.. Channeled Revival anyone? Breath of Life in a 30 foot burst.
Well, that certainly makes it a much more worthwhile feat than I thought it was.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I don't think it states that it is a single target.Relevant. Range is 30 ft., single target.Also, I don't think that Feat works that way. It just says you can use 3 uses of channel energy to effectively cast Breath of Life.um.. Channeled Revival anyone? Breath of Life in a 30 foot burst.
Benefit: As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, you can expend three uses of your channel energy class feature to restore a dead creature to life as if you had cast the breath of life spell (Core Rulebook 251).
The wording of "a dead creature" indicates a single target to me.
Although I could be wrong.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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I don't think it states that it is a single target.Relevant. Range is 30 ft., single target.Also, I don't think that Feat works that way. It just says you can use 3 uses of channel energy to effectively cast Breath of Life.um.. Channeled Revival anyone? Breath of Life in a 30 foot burst.
Benefit: As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, you can expend three uses of your channel energy class feature to restore a dead creature to life as if you had cast the breath of life spell (Core Rulebook 251).The wording of "a dead creature" indicates a single target to me.
Although I could be wrong.
I read it again an realized it was still unclear (to me at least). Sorry to delete the post you replied to, but I posted in the rules forum thread so I wouldn't derail this thread any more.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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Who cares about scrolls of breath of life as anyone can use this. No need for UMD, no need for concentration, no need for SLWS.
Spring loaded wrist sheaths are very good, but does it break the game if you got 2 items (from a very limited selection) you can draw for free?
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Spring loaded wrist sheaths are very good, but does it break the game if you got 2 items (from a very limited selection) you can draw for free?
For 5 gp?
And when that limited selection keeps getting pushed?
If the description actually limited the selection, it would be fine. "You can store a wand or dagger within this and retrieve it as a swift action." That would end it. But by calling it "items such as" you are opening up a whole 'nother world.
As has been pointed out there are magic items that are MORE limiting that cost thousands of gold.
So, again, game breaking? No.
Too good for its cost? Yes.
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Who cares about scrolls of breath of life as anyone can use this. No need for UMD, no need for concentration, no need for SLWS.
Spring loaded wrist sheaths are very good, but does it break the game if you got 2 items (from a very limited selection) you can draw for free?
The answer is no, but many people find them objectionable, nonetheless.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Long ago, in a 1st ed. home game, my players and I decided that a person should be able to carry a few things "on belt". We actually refered to it at "on belt items". These items were gotten easily, quickly, and were normally carried in small belt pouches. (picture a policemans belt - which was what we modeled it after).
In PFS we can't have that. Right? I can't have a shieth designed to hold a wand, and a belt pouch added to hold that potion I just might need "at hand". We have something called a wrist shieth. And you can only carry one thing in it, and you can (normally) only have two on your person.
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you argue that a scroll can be put in a spring loaded wrist sheath, then the same argument works with drawing a scroll within easy reach while moving.
Well, personally I have never quite understood how pulling a rolled up scroll from my belt is harder than pulling a wand or a mace.
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A SLWS with a Breath of Life Spell, I personally do not think that this is an issue. If you say that is, then something like the First Aid Gloves would perk up some interest of "Must Have" items. 4500g for two Breath of Life, or a various amount of other healing.
Should the Clear Spindle Ioun Stone inside a Wayfinder be banned as well? It clearly puts the NPC combatants in a disadvantageous situation, especially since many are of Evil Alignment. If it is considered this powerful in terms of PFS, would you increase the price of it?
How about Mistmail? It gives casters an automatic 20% miss chance, and since it converts to mist, no weight. With Mage Armor, this makes it where you have an all-day long Blur with +4 AC. Costing 2250g, should this be banned?
There are a lot of things that could be considered overpowering, but a SLWS seems to give players reminders that there are more actions in their repretoir. If people can only play with a move action, a standard action, or a full round action, how much of a disadvantage would our builds be by not utilizing all of our resources?
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Well, personally I have never quite understood how pulling a rolled up scroll from my belt is harder than pulling a wand or a mace.Long ago, in a 1st ed. home game, my players and I decided that a person should be able to carry a few things "on belt". We actually refered to it at "on belt items". These items were gotten easily, quickly, and were normally carried in small belt pouches. (picture a policemans belt - which was what we modeled it after).
In PFS we can't have that. Right? I can't have a shieth designed to hold a wand, and a belt pouch added to hold that potion I just might need "at hand". We have something called a wrist shieth. And you can only carry one thing in it, and you can (normally) only have two on your person.
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you argue that a scroll can be put in a spring loaded wrist sheath, then the same argument works with drawing a scroll within easy reach while moving.
cause it's in a scroll case (or it probably got ripped/destroyed) and you have to take it off your belt, take it out of the case, and unrolling. That takes longer than drawing a wand and pushing the "go" button.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If you argue that a scroll can be put in a spring loaded wrist sheath, then the same argument works with drawing a scroll within easy reach while moving.
I don't understand how you're getting to this conclusion. The qualification for use in the sheath is "forearm-length item". The qualification for drawing on the move is "weapon-like". How are these equivalent?
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What if the scroll were very very sharp?
In all seriousness I've never really understood why a scroll that was accessible could not be drawn as part of a move action. I just attribute it to one of the many quirks that happens when you apply a rigid system to represent something.
It makes sense to me that a small scroll could fit into a wrist sheath pretty easily, and that it could be spring loaded. Especially since these scrolls are made out of vellum which is pretty tough stuff.
Also if people are so worried about spring loaded wrist sheaths ruining action economy shouldn't they also be upset about mounted combat?
This has happened multiple times now for my Samurai Order of the Tome
GM: and that is a total of X damage
Player 1: Ok I'm dead
Me: Dead as in down or dead dead?
Player 1: dead dead.
GM: Ok Mahtobedis your turn
Me: I'm going to ride my axe beak around the really big monster provoking attacks of opportunity as I go. I am not going to take cover behind my mount this time because I"m going to need that action.
*AoO is resolved*
Me: Ok now I'm gambling that they do not have combat reflexes, I'm going to make a ride check to dismount as a free action (easily passed), and then I will draw one of the 5 breath of life scrolls I was given from my dedicated healing scroll bandolier. Caster level check, anything higher than 5, got it.