Gathering, Harvesting, Refining and Crafting


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Goblin Squad Member

There have been several threads discussing crafting, but not as many focusing on the advantages and disadvantages of each method and how to keep the function interesting for the player.

Individual nodes should be an easy pick for a single item, maybe two, rarely three. It only takes a moment and shouldn't need a game or any distraction to complete.

A longer term individual gathering function that might yield a higher number of units, say, 5-50 units, can be pretty boring and repetitive ala Darkfall. Darkfall has nodes that when full yield 51 units which takes between 7 1/2 to 9 minutes to deplete. (They are replenished three hours after the last unit is harvested.) This system needs some help, as it is easy to become bored during the harvest and it is easy to walk away and get ganked while afk.

Refining is typically done standing in front of the initial refining station (say, a sawmill for timber) and multiple units may be processed in one sitting but can take several minutes or longer to complete a session. On the upside you can issue the order and normally go afk for a while as he operation completes. If the player wants to play then this system is a negative.

Crafting is also typically done standing in front of the crafting station (in the timber example we would now be in front of a workbench or saw table). These operations in past games are done quickly. Far too quickly in my personal opinion. In most games crafters level far faster than their capacity to craft like-level items. Slower leveling theoretically would align the character level with the item level created.

So, the question is, what do you do while your character is performing the above actions?

Goblin Squad Member

I'm just talking about refining and/or crafting here.

Both of these operations can be subject to longish process times - I don't think either needs to finish instantly. The structure for each of the operations is something like a smelter, sawmill, or forge. Depending on the size and upgrades, the structure might allow a number of player-run queues to operate simultaneously. So you set it up and it starts chugging away - you're told what the estimated run time of the project is...

Now at this point, it's been hinted that we might get problems to solve.

One way I'd be happy with is this: At this point I can leave the refining/crafting structure and I get a small mini-window for the task. That mini-window stays open as long as I stay in the settlement hex, because the workers can find me if I've gone to the market, or I'm sipping an ale in the tavern, or I'm seeing a man about a horse...

If there's a crisis, I get a message and a highlight in the mini-window, as long as I'm online and in town. I have to go to the refinery/shop to solve the problem. Solving the problem might get the job back on track, or it might actually speed the job up. Not solving the problem might delay the job a little or a lot, or it might not really be a crisis. Either way, solving or not solving should depend on my character's skills, not my mad puzzling ability.

The master of the structure in the settlement might have the ability to bump a problem needing solving down the queue, so other projects aren't delayed as much. He might not even get his mini-window lit up if I solve my problem within 5-10 minutes.

While I've got a job running, that little mini-window should be pretty unobtrusive. I should be able to do all sorts of social activities, chat, company management, inventory management, read the in-game wiki, almost anything. I might not be able to open a second crafting job unless I've got serious skills for that.

Goblin Squad Member

In Darkfall, harvesting from nodes is horrible. Some reasons for this:

  • It takes forever*
  • You are not allowed to rotate camera (have to keep looking at the node you're harvesting from)
  • Opening certain UI elements breaks the harvesting operation
  • no unexpected events during harvesting**
  • chat system is really bad, hindering talking to other players while gathering

In other games using node harvesting, it's not as bad. While generally not as fun as doing other activities, the choices they made for Darkfall made it worse than it has to be.

*=more numerous nodes each holding smaller yields of materials are more fun, lets you run around more
**=In Age of Conan for example, there was a chance that NPC enemies would appear during harvesting.

Goblin Squad Member

When you get the raw materials back to the processing specialized building, perhaps that point in the process chain, you have several players required simultaneously operating functions with correct timing and coordination (perhaps some character skill variable) via player concentration and communication to operate successfully various batches and procedures?

That would make it more interesting. Players might get fed-up after a certain number - you could say their characters are fatigued after a certain number perhaps? Or at least manually doing x allows automatic y number are also done?

I think teamwork style 2-5 and even 2-11 could be very good little work teams at some stage of development?

Goblin Squad Member

Hardin Steele wrote:
...what do you do while your character is performing the above actions?

Not answering your implied question ("what do you want to be doing?"), but I just keep my Kindle in front of my keyboard and read. I can chat with the other Goblins and read pretty much simultaneously; I'm in Darkfall...when I can be...only for contact with the Goblins anyway.

That's not to say that I'm not also completely bored :-).

Goblin Squad Member

Clearly you need a better book, Jazz ;)

Goblin Squad Member

As someone who also kept reading material handy for resource gathering and crafting in several games, I think the boredom could be alleviated somewhat without impacting the war for resources.
The actual crafting is usually done in a safe place, so make the change there. Let the vulnerable, 'in the field' part be 90% of crafting.
Just 'smith at the mine' , no more watching a pixel pick swing 1000 times a month, instead you'll be looking over your shoulder for bandits as you craft the node to depletion.

We could use raw materials for repairs (and construction), so there would still be 'pure' gathering like every other game ... it would be a choice at the node, based on skills/gear and how long you think it will be before someone else shows up...

Goblin Squad Member

Pinosaur wrote:

Let the vulnerable, 'in the field' part be 90% of crafting.

Hmmm, that´s an interresting thought

Goblin Squad Member

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I always liked the idea of having an optional mini-game that, if you preformed well, gave a reward of reduced processing time. In the game you are not (generally) the one doing the work. Instead you are supervising your invisible workers in their tasks. Your attention will be on the mini-game, so you will be less likely to spot an ambush, but if you can reduce your time at the node by 10%, that's a fairly significant time savings. For refiners and crafters the ambush part of the equation is less important, but a time savings means you have more throughput.

There's a fair few simple games that could be used in one form or another. Minesweeper, codebreaker, blackbox, entanglement, and bejeweled, for example. Galaxy on Fire 2 has a fun mining mini-game that dictated your asteroid mining yield. You had a 'drill bit' that would move about the screen, and by tilting the device (or moving the mouse, or keys) you constantly re-position the bit toward the center. Concentric rings formed a 'bullseye' and as you depleted the asteroid the outer rings would disappear. If the drill bit spent a certain amount of time outside the target area the mining would terminate (and the asteroid would explode), leaving you with whatever you had managed to harvest. The more valuable the rock, the narrower the target area would be and the drill bit would bounce around more erratically.

The idea isn't to make harvesting, refining, or crafting a 'set it and forget it' or AFK operation, you could establish your lumber camp and then go off to fight goblins, but if you are a dedicated gatherer, refiner, or craftsman, you would have something fun that you could do to increase your yield.

Goblin Squad Member

Interesting thought having either a faster production or a slightly higher chance of a higher quality item if crafted in a more dangerous area (makes some sense in a Darkfall environment, but hard to tell how it would play out in PFO).

The gathering function might work out better if the gatherer could look around in a 360 degree circle. That's the trap that gets you ganked. Another possibility is having a skill that allows the gatherer to deploy a small mechanical gathering deice that does the gathering at a specific node and allows the player character to provide protection to the device at the collection takes place (think a small nest of silkworms and the device would allow the collection of 50 units). Maybe an engineering skill, or some other appropriate skill.

Refining might be an operation that is more suitable for a minigame, since usually the refiner is standing there hammering away, or weaving, or smelting, or woodcutting, or spice grinding, or gem sorting, or whatever refining process you are working on (each of those things could have a skill related minigame specifically for it to help reduce the time needed to complete the entire process).

Crafting should take a long while for most items, and the more complex the item the longer it should take. A smith making a nail is fast, but a wainwright making a heavy duty log wagon should require several days for the assembly process. Should the crafter be able to use an automated process, or might he/she be called in for troubleshooting during the assembly, ready to provide the needed fix within a certain time limit to keep the construction on track? Or should it be a " start and forget" process?

Goblin Squad Member

Pinosaur wrote:

As someone who also kept reading material handy for resource gathering and crafting in several games, I think the boredom could be alleviated somewhat without impacting the war for resources.

The actual crafting is usually done in a safe place, so make the change there. Let the vulnerable, 'in the field' part be 90% of crafting.
Just 'smith at the mine' , no more watching a pixel pick swing 1000 times a month, instead you'll be looking over your shoulder for bandits as you craft the node to depletion.

We could use raw materials for repairs (and construction), so there would still be 'pure' gathering like every other game ... it would be a choice at the node, based on skills/gear and how long you think it will be before someone else shows up...

The one big issue with that, comes the part where that interferes with settlement structures being a large motivator in people leveling and growing their city. IE it is difficult (though not imposible) to explain and create a benefit to better crafting resources within a town... in the event that crafting isn't done in town.

Goblin Squad Member

Onishi wrote:
Pinosaur wrote:

As someone who also kept reading material handy for resource gathering and crafting in several games, I think the boredom could be alleviated somewhat without impacting the war for resources.

The actual crafting is usually done in a safe place, so make the change there. Let the vulnerable, 'in the field' part be 90% of crafting.
Just 'smith at the mine' , no more watching a pixel pick swing 1000 times a month, instead you'll be looking over your shoulder for bandits as you craft the node to depletion.

We could use raw materials for repairs (and construction), so there would still be 'pure' gathering like every other game ... it would be a choice at the node, based on skills/gear and how long you think it will be before someone else shows up...

The one big issue with that, comes the part where that interferes with settlement structures being a large motivator in people leveling and growing their city. IE it is difficult (though not imposible) to explain and create a benefit to better crafting resources within a town... in the event that crafting isn't done in town.

Why not best of both worlds.

If a settlement chooses to build a structure to improve crafting, you'd be better off crafting in town, but you wouldn't have to.

Settlements could use their space to build something other than 'Dwarven Forge', trading the ability to craft the high end gear for providing a more diverse selection of training halls... or more brothels ;p

Goblin Squad Member

Thinking of Hardin's silkworms I wondered whether there might be types of nodes that are also PvE content, such as dangerous silkworms that drop out of mulberry trees onto the gatherer that he must then 'harvest'.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Thinking of Hardin's silkworms I wondered whether there might be types of nodes that are also PvE content, such as dangerous silkworms that drop out of mulberry trees onto the gatherer that he must then 'harvest'.

Whatever the decay time might be for NPC mobs thinking about harvesting rares off of different types of creature corpses, the harvester would not only have to be able to kill the creature but also have the skill to harvest the rare item off the corpse. Maybe a piercer dropping onto a party member, the rare core of the piercer (a gemstone of some kind or a nugget of mithril?) would allow an appropriately skilled harvester in the group to harvest that item from the corpse. It could be a specific skill to harvest from corpses would include a type of anatomy for a specific creature.

Goblin Squad Member

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(First time posting on the PFO boards!)

Hardin's post here gave me an interesting idea; what if a large portion of harvesting was done as a part of an adventuring group? The harvesters could operate as a part of their faction's PvE dungeoneers/adventuring parties, or perhaps pay a group they aren't affiliated with to tag along (this would probably be a big risk for them; if they gather with an unreliable group, they might just be killed and those precious resources taken from their corpse).

Let's look at an example. Let's say our relatively low-powered adventuring team is heading into the woods to smash a goblin raiding camp set inside a cave system, which in game would be an instanced dungeon encounter. They bring along their company's newbie miner, because these hills usually yield a good amount of iron for him to collect. As most of the party sets about combating the goblins, the miner sets about his work of collecting. As he does this, perhaps more goblins spawn around him, emphasizing the need to either gather as a team or expand your character to be able to fight off the threats himself. I'd personally say that in order to continue to gather he must stay still within a certain distance from the object, but interrupting the gathering doesn't reset the gathering time. The adventuring party benefits from bringing along the miner, either because the miner is directly paying for it or because he's a part of their company and he's benefiting the whole group. The miner obviously benefits by collecting the resource.

This would probably be similar to WoW's gathering inside dungeons (the only comparison I have personally), with a few differences:

  • Because a character will need to be built towards gathering to get the best resources and more efficient yields, it pays to have someone who is a non-combative type that gathers.
  • The gatherer should be harassed during the gathering process, unlike gathering in WoW which you do after clearing a room and with no distractions.

    I think having at least a portion of gathering done this way (that is, gathering as a secondary objective to raiding an instance) might help alleviate the issue of bored gatherers without resorting to minigames. It would also be a proactive alternative for fighter types who want to aid the gathering in ways other than "standing around and waiting for gankers".

    The biggest issue I can come up with is what happens when your party is finished gathering, and you send someone outside to scout for gankers. What happens if you discover gankers outside? I could see that leading into a boring situation where both sides camp at opposite ends of the entryway into the instance, and everyone just kinda waits until someone is too bored. However, I'm sure there are other problems; this is just a kernel of an idea, of course.

  • Goblin Squad Member

    Welcome to the party Shane. :)

    I really like the idea of players who take up roles protecting merchant caravans and harvesting operations having to fight off a regular NPC attacks as well. Though this could lead to a situation of always being engaged with NPCs when you get jumped by players, and that would likely lead to caravans / operations using guards large enough all the NPCs get steamrolled without presenting a challenge.

    I'm struggling to think of a mechanic that could overcome that.

    Goblin Squad Member

    Welcome, Shane. That's exactly how I hope the majority of harvesting is done - in a group. I hadn't thought of instances; I'd always thought in terms of open world. A larger number of dedicated gatherers likely bring in more mobs. The rest of the adventurers are basically fighting a defend-this-terrain quest.

    But what do the gatherers do, or is it just grinding?

    Goblin Squad Member

    So far the message from GW is that there will be very few instanced PvE dungeon-type encounters furnished by GW, the most notable exception being Emerald Spire though I have doubt that will be instanced.

    They have mentioned a potential for player-crafted dungeon instances that might be sold on the in-game market.

    Goblin Squad Member

    Hello Shane! Welcome to the posters' forums!

    Escalations have been confirmed to draw in hostiles as the harvesting operation proceeds. Therefore having a defensive team in place is really a requirement for actual harvesters. Gatherers might be able to get by for some time going from one node to the next without being harassed either by PCs or NPCs.

    Unusual gathering or harvesting operations could occur in many different places; dungeons, ruins, Points of Interest (reading the "Guide to the River Kingdoms" tells me Mosswater should have some amazing harvesting opportunities, but will require a very strong defensive force) or any other place where things could collect to be gathered should provide great interactions between the gathering group and the NPCs (or PCs) in the area.

    I do like the idea of having gathering opportunities in dungeons, as long as these dungeons can't be exploited by the adventuring group. I also like the idea that certain skills may be required in order to conduct certain unusual types of gathering or harvesting operations.

    Goblin Squad Member

    Thanks for the responses; I had forgotten that most of the game is not going to involve instanced areas as far as the current plan is concerned. However, I'd suppose it could work much the same for an uninstanced "dungeon area" such as a secluded bog, a particularly dangerous stand of magical bamboo, or something similar. The important part, at least as far as I see it, is that no one is playing a passive part. The gatherer shouldn't just sit in place to harvest; they should have to dodge enemy attacks and maybe fight themselves while trying their best to continue gathering (maybe there're better mechanics to get the gatherer more active; any thoughts?). Similarly, the fighting PC's shouldn't just be standing around waiting for people to gank the gatherer; to me, that's just the same as a boring passive gathering mechanic.

    @Andius, I could see the following, presented by Urman above, as a tentative solution to the presented problem: when there is a larger group in a given area prone to spawning enemies, the extra activity draws more enemies out of the woodworks. Thus a huge mob of gatherers attacking an area would draw a greater number of enemies, and require more guards to help them. The operation would have to weigh the number of gatherers against the number of guards, and find some balance that's optimal for profits. I think this could also open up an unexpected type of passive PvP; if your large group of gankers stayed stealthed/invisible inside the hostile spawning area, you could increase the amount of spawning NPC's, and soften up the gathering operation further before moving in to attack. This might also tip the guards off to the presence of gankers, and create a whole subsystem for detecting and dealing with these types of attacks.

    Also, I think large groups of gankers who attack gathering operations would probably have to deal with the hostile NPC's as well, creating an interesting 3-way battle. This would also probably ruin the element of surprise for the gankers (IMO an important asset), unless they do a reckless charge headlong through a group of NPC's to reach the gatherers quickly. Although it would be true that the gathering team will probably have fought the NPC's for longer, and thus be lower on resources, I don't see that as unfair. It's one of the reasons a ganker might want to attack a gathering operation specifically, instead of a travelling caravan, for example.

    EDIT: This doesn't really resolve the problem of having a massive army guarding your caravan; I can definitely see the scenario where one company has all their caravan trips guarded by most of their active combat players. Anyone else have thoughts on resolving that one specifically?

    Goblin Squad Member

    I don't see the guarded caravan as a problem. Let's say the average trip is 15-30 minutes long. If they have too much force, no one attacks them. They get bored, shift defenders to other tasks. Eventually someone thinks they can take the caravan, and PvP results. Every defender guarding a caravan is a character who isn't creating wealth.

    Goblin Squad Member

    Andius wrote:


    I really like the idea of players who take up roles protecting merchant caravans and harvesting operations having to fight off a regular NPC attacks as well. Though this could lead to a situation of always being engaged with NPCs when you get jumped by players, and that would likely lead to caravans / operations using guards large enough all the NPCs get steamrolled without presenting a challenge.

    I'm struggling to think of a mechanic that could overcome that.

    NPC scaling. Goblins are dumb not suicidal 3 of them won't rush an operation with 7 guards. 3 goblins attack an op with a small number of players. If there are 10 players they get maybe 6 goblins and an orc/ogre.

    If that larger group is engaged when Bludwolf comes by with his 7 bandits, the NPC presence scales up with their own reinforcements to engage the new players. The NPCs probably don't know or care if the players are friendly or hostile groups they'll attack everyone equally.

    A bandit advantage of attacking a gathering op engaged by NPCs could quickly turn to a disadvantage if the op dispatches the original attackers but the bandits are still dealing with their fresh batch, flagged for pvp, and obviously there to do robbing.

    Goblin Squad Member

    With gathering, I hope GW moves away from the single character gatherer that pervades the genre. Rather than 'Hit <node> with <tool>', have a kit that the character deploys on a node (type appropriate for the node). The resultant structure is destructible and reclaimable. The kit determines how fast the resource is harvested and the product can be pulled from the structure at any time for transport. The node produces a variable but finite amount of material. The Kits themselves would, ideally, be customizable with different gear and NPCs, both gatherers and guards. Gatherers are hired and have an associated price. If you have slaves, you could use them instead, increasing your evilness but decreasing the cost of your kit.

    This, especially with a mini-game that speeds up gathering, would encourage different 'breeds' of gatherer. First you have the Traditionalist. Their goal is to gather as much material as fast as possible. They will be the ones to make the most of the mini-game, and will be equipped to either hit multiple (pre-scouted) nodes and carry all the materials back at once, or make multiple smaller trips. Their kits would likely be equipped to maximize gathering speed at the expense of durability, and would have minimal or no npc guard support.

    The Adventurer, on the other hand, is one that sets up a kit as secondary to their main activity. They maximize their guards, use cheap labor and gear, and if the node gets looted or destroyed, well, so be it. Whatever their camp gathers while they are out dealing with an escalation or exploring is just gravy.

    The Specialist is a bit different. They will equip multiple kits, each with a balanced NPC complement and average gear, and will set these up on multiple nodes in close proximity. They will either rove between the nodes, providing a roaming guard, or they will use the mini-game to adjust the timers to come out in such a manner that the kits can be packed up and transported sequentially. These gatherers are more likely to work with other PCs, likely other gatherers, to pool their resources and provide a stronger defense when and where it's needed.

    The Ninja is a combination scout and gatherer, specializing in gathering a small amount of high-value material from an area nominally claimed by someone else, or from deep in the wilderness. They are likely to equip their kit to be cheap, with the maximum amount of gatherers and little to no guards. They will either play the mini-game or set up as a lone guard. At the first sign of trouble they will pack up or destroy the kit, taking whatever they have gathered, and flee.

    By decoupling the gathering from the character themselves, the predator/prey relationship that between PVP and PVE gatherers which pervades most PVP MMOs can shift. A gatherer doesn't need to 'gimp' their gear to gather. They don't need to make themselves vulnerable, and they don't need to root themselves to a single spot. They may choose to, to gain some benefits, but it's not a requirement. The gathering camps could even be used as a honey pot, attracting NPC and PC raiders to be ambushed.

    Goblin Squad Member

    tangent:
    I could see an evolution in the Merchant Convoys wherein smaller Convoys have extremely tightly-grouped guards, never venturing out of sight of the Caravans themselves, while the larger Convoys have their surplus Guards actively foraging and scouting away from the Caravans, relying upon a small core of Guards to provide enough time for the other defenders to return.

    Bandits, by contrast, will evolve their tactics to compensate, with fast-moving harassment groups attacking the Smaller Convoys in hit-and-run attacks to whittle down the health and resources until they weaken the Convoy enough to force the Guards to stand down and allow the Bandits a chance to move in and deliver their Stand-And-Deliver challenges.

    Against the Larger Convoys, we'd probably see a Goon-Swarm style tactic, with a large, or several smaller, groups of Bandits peppering the roads that the Caravans depend upon with traps, and then launching barrages of ranged attacks against the Guards and any Caravans that try to get off the road, relying upon numbers and surprise to gain the advantage over the presumeably better-geared and wealthier Convoy and Guards, until such time as they can either negotiate a Stand-And-Deliver, or if they are out to ruin a Settlement rather than get rich, ravage the Convoy itself and make off with what loot they can salvage.

    I could honestly get behind a 'kit' that creates a simple gathering station of some kind, especially if 'Nodes' aren't the piece-meal b!@++$&& that are prevelent in other MMOs.

    I'd also like to see Group Gatherers increasing the volume that can be extracted in a shorter time-span. I do oppose the 'need' for groups of gatherers to be the only way forwards. Let's be honest, MMOs are good fun and all, but there needs to be some way for people who, for reasons ranging from mundane to stupid to 'whole universe is set against me', to be able to play Solo from time to time without being crucified by the game.

    Should they be as effective as a Group? No, but they should still be able to make headway, just slower than a Group.

    I also advocate that Gathering and Crafting In-The-Field should have a high chance of triggering some sort of event, either an NPC (Hostile, Neutral or Friendly) appearing nearby, or a rare resource appearing which requires a mini-game to gather effectively.

    And Mini-Games? NO QUICK-TIME B+*+#@&%. Especially in an Online Game where latency can pop up and completely ream players unfairly. Make the Mini-Games non-timed and rely upon control of the 'environment' and thinking tactically, not twitch-gaming and timers.

    Goblin Squad Member

    HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise wrote:
    And Mini-Games? NO QUICK-TIME B!###%&!. Especially in an Online Game where latency can pop up and completely ream players unfairly. Make the Mini-Games non-timed and rely upon control of the 'environment' and thinking tactically, not twitch-gaming and timers.

    Good point.

    Goblin Squad Member

    re: tangent I foresee old time Comanche raids on the caravans that will prompt someone to drawl in a gravelly voice "Well, the first thing we're gonna do is draw the wagons in a circle..."

    For my kit when there is a big logging operation the forest should be noticeably reduced unless the harvester has forestry skill. The big time mine should actually start looking like a Mine or a quarry. Veins of valuable metal should thread the stone.

    Now, I think these landscapes can revert gradually, at least somewhat, once the gathering operation has moved on, but I feel it would add greatly to the experience to come across a real gold mine and be tempted.

    Goblin Squad Member

    The only advantage there should be to group gathering vs solo gathering is, well, there's a group doing the gathering, so there should nominally be some protection for any or all of the gathering sites.

    Any mini-games should be strategy-based rather than twitch. Probably configure the games to be done in stages or objectives, with each stage or objective completion giving a reduction in process time. That way it's not an all or nothing event. As an example, using a codebreaker style mini-game, you could have it be endlessly repeating and every time a code is broken you get the time reduction. Other types of mini-games could be similar to an infinite bejeweled where the bigger your streak, the more time is reduced. A minesweeper style game could include locating bonus squares while avoiding the penalty squares. Make bonus squares per level multiplicative, so the more bonus squares you find in a level, the bigger your time reduction. Time reduction happens immediately when the bonus square is located. If you find a penalty square, the board and bonus multipliers reset.

    Edit: Only the camp manager, the character who set the camp, can access the mini-game.

    CEO, Goblinworks

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    As always, we begin with a simple system and then with crowdforging and iteration, make it more complex.

    In the beginning, you'll walk up to a resource node and harvest it. You'll have some variability on outcome based on character abilities and tools and some random elements. It will be boring and time consuming. I'm sympathetic to the idea that you should be able to chat, and manipulate the UI while your character is harvesting so I'll push to make sure that all works.

    By making it boring and time consuming, we make it worthwhile (remember the only real "cost" in an MMO is player boredom).

    The first iteration on this plan is some sort of larger scale harvesting "camp" that will require the construction of some sort of structure, which may likely require consumables, and will have to be guarded while it operates. This harvesting is likely to also generate monster spawns.

    These two baseline systems are a part of the minimum viable product definition, so they should be ready on day one of Early Enrollment.

    You'll also potentially gain some resources when you defeat monsters. Some monsters may be the only source of some resources - making those monsters essentially very valuable wandering resource nodes.

    This initial system is not being designed to be "fun". It's just being designed to work according to well established patterns. It's very low risk, but it's also not very innovative. I suspect harvesting will be one of the most highly crowdforged aspects of the game because the fractal space for improvements is so gigantic.

    Goblin Squad Member

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    Cool beans! I have no problem with the minimum viable product. The harvesting camp is miles beyond what most MMOs offer to date and is an innovation in itself (if it has been done already, I have not seen it).

    There is a lot of potential for various other types of gathering and harvesting, so I am looking forward to seeing what ideas get batted around during the crowdforging phase.

    Goblin Squad Member

    Hardin Steele wrote:
    There is a lot of potential for various other types of gathering and harvesting, so I am looking forward to seeing what ideas get batted around during the crowdforging phase.

    Ditto. I think there's definitely potential for keeping people happy who want to passively gather with NPC's at a structure, and people who want to actively find resources and gather them by hand. In fact, I think keeping both types independant (i.e., can't gather the same resources as the other, or at least not as effectively) would lead to a wide variety of gatherers who enjoy what they do.

    In my opinion it would be less ideal for an active gatherer to say "I like to gather but I have to use these boring passive structures because they're more effective" or for a passive gatherer to say "I want to gather but using these structures is a much greater risk for less reward than banging rocks with my stick personally". I don't think either type of gathering has to be excluded or marginalized in this way.

    Goblin Squad Member

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    He is a summary of some of the ways to obtain resources. An interesting note is that some ways lend themselves to multiple gatherers/harvesters, some do not (Darkfall allows multiple miners on one iron node while WoW flagged a node as depleted once one player began the gathering process).

    Ways to gather

    -picking up an individual item in the wilderness (a tree branch, an herb, etc...) Short duration.

    -picking up an individual item in a safe area or in town. Short duration.

    -finding items in a loot stash or treasure chest. Short duration.

    -recovering items from a corpse. Short duration.

    Ways to harvest

    -harvesting an individual node that yields 1-4 units. Short duration.

    -harvesting an individual node that yields 5-100 units. Medium duration.

    -conducting a harvesting operation in the wilderness that yields several to a few hundred units. Long duration.

    -operating a farm, ranch, mine, quarry, or other point of interest that may yield a few hundred to a thousand units on a periodic basis. Long duration.

    The farm or ranch might be operated in the wilderness, but there are so many ways for that operation to be taken advantage of I did not include it as a separate harvesting operation.

    Goblin Squad Member

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    This might be better suited for its own thread, but the above notes also bring to mind the skills of cartography, land navigation, treasure hunting, prospecting and surveying.

    Cartography can be used to make maps, copy maps, detect flaws in maps, and detect anomalies in maps (like where secret doors, panels and passageways may be concealed).

    Land Navigation may help a character get from point A to B and then to C without getting lost (if the right tools are on hand), follow instructions like those noted on a treasure map, explore the land in a meaningful way, find shortcuts through unexplored territory, determine where a pass may be located over a mountain ridge or the like.

    Treasure hunting would assist the hunter in homing in more quickly on a known treasure hoard, and would allow for a larger variance when digging for buried treasure (a favorite pastime all the way back to UO).

    Prospecting would allow a character to study a hex to determine where resources might be located, or at higher levels allow uncommon, rare, or possibly very rare resources to be located within that hex. For example, while prospecting for iron a small node of mithril is detected in a tiny pocket otherwise undetectable by anyone not possessing the prospecting skill. Prospecting would work for anything that can be mined or dug up.

    Surveying would allow the finding of other types of resources such as the silkworm nest mentioned before, rare wood and timber, or unusual foods or animals.

    Goblin Squad Member

    I must be the only guy with a harvesting fixation. Help me!

    I was thinking about the speed of the harvest, particularly mining, but it could apply to any gathering/harvesting operation really.

    Individual prospectors have little real impact on the earth. They probe around, poke a few holes in the ground, dig here and there, and maybe push a hill over.

    Larger groups can actually build a mine and drag tons out of the earth, and many can separate the ore from the dirt and rock there at the site. Otherwise it must be hauled into town for smelting.

    Very large groups can tear down mountains, strip mining the entire area to extract maximum ore, but cause enormous damage, and that site will likely never produce again (a bit different with ore and gems, but you get the in-game idea).

    So, how would druids view these different operations, and what effect would these different operations have on the area, and the chances of having a recurring harvest site?

    How about having a way to repair the earth after huge damage is done? How much "healing" would the ground need, and how long to recuperate so the earth can generate a new batch of harvestable goods?

    Goblin Squad Member

    I think that's an excellent idea. A solitary Harvester can only pick at what's on offer, whereas a Group of Harvesters will be able to create harvesting nodes through their own efforts.

    A lone miner might only be able to chip out a bag's worth of iron-bearing rock on his travel before being forced to retreat back to civilisation due to a lack of protection and carrying capacity.

    A group of miners might be able to follow a surface-vein all the way down and create a quick-and-dirty mine. With more people and a larger carrying capacity, the group of miners has a greater chance to get more resources safely before being driven back.

    Both, with time, might be able to create a viable mine to permanently harvest that iron-bearing rock, but the group should always provide a greater amount of raw material in the same time-frame, and possibly, if the people are using multiple 'Kits', produce higher-quality materials as their efforts are passed through multiple layers of gathering and sorting.

    Goblin Squad Member

    (Tangent time) I don't think we've heard from any druidic factions yet, but I'll cross my fingers that they're there when the game gets going. Evil druids bent on destroying all civilization and aiding escalations, good druids protecting the helpless denizens of the forest, and so forth. Wouldn't that be fun. :)

    As to your ideas regarding making the land unusable, If both site-based passive gathering and resource-node-hopping player gathering are used, I'd hate to be an individual gatherer that loses the ability to gather because someone else in my settlement overgathered. Then again, that would be an opportunity ripe for meaningful player interaction, and after all a settlement should be able to regulate the gathering sites under its control. Maybe it isn't that bad a thing after all...

    Goblin Squad Member

    Hardin Steele wrote:


    Larger groups can actually build a mine and drag tons out of the earth, and many can separate the ore from the dirt and rock there at the site. Otherwise it must be hauled into town for smelting.

    Very large groups can tear down mountains, strip mining the entire area to extract maximum ore, but cause enormous damage, and that site will likely never produce again (a bit different with ore and gems, but you get the in-game idea).

    I agree that large operations should affect the hex, at the very least affect spawns/escalations (strip mining spawns angry druids etc).

    Huge operations do not necessarily deplete the area though: deeper shafts may lead to new bands of ore/gems (and the occasional Balrog), and we could even consider a system where some rare materials can only be found in areas that have been exploited for a long time (thus adding value to holding the land over exploiting and scorching).

    side note:
    Very large Resource Gathering Operations in PFO may still be run by a single player overseeing the RGO itself and anyone else providing security and logistics. At least according to early blogs/posts, the GW design is that NPCs do the tedious grunt work and the player is there for management and decisions. So it only takes one player with 'gathering fixation' to get any large scale effects.

    Goblin Squad Member

    randomwalker wrote:


    Very large Resource Gathering Operations in PFO may still be run by a single player overseeing the RGO itself and anyone else providing security and logistics. At least according to early blogs/posts, the GW design is that NPCs do the tedious grunt work and the player is there for management and decisions. So it only takes one player with 'gathering fixation' to get any large scale effects.

    Maybe one player can only order around so many common folk. You might need a pool of them that is greater than what one person can provide in order to effectively run a harvesting operation.

    Goblin Squad Member

    Wurner wrote:
    randomwalker wrote:


    Very large Resource Gathering Operations in PFO may still be run by a single player overseeing the RGO itself and anyone else providing security and logistics. At least according to early blogs/posts, the GW design is that NPCs do the tedious grunt work and the player is there for management and decisions. So it only takes one player with 'gathering fixation' to get any large scale effects.
    Maybe one player can only order around so many common folk. You might need a pool of them that is greater than what one person can provide in order to effectively run a harvesting operation.

    Not to mention, no matter how many common folk you have digging. One man isn't going to be able to save them when their harvesting brings in an army of goblins etc...

    Goblin Squad Member

    Shane Gifford wrote:

    (Tangent time) I don't think we've heard from any druidic factions yet, but I'll cross my fingers that they're there when the game gets going. Evil druids bent on destroying all civilization and aiding escalations, good druids protecting the helpless denizens of the forest, and so forth. Wouldn't that be fun. :)

    As to your ideas regarding making the land unusable, If both site-based passive gathering and resource-node-hopping player gathering are used, I'd hate to be an individual gatherer that loses the ability to gather because someone else in my settlement overgathered. Then again, that would be an opportunity ripe for meaningful player interaction, and after all a settlement should be able to regulate the gathering sites under its control. Maybe it isn't that bad a thing after all...

    We are here.

    My original idea was that if the harvester is present at the harvesting site they can use good forester skills to actually help the land in their harvesting, but if they build a harvesting site and are not present to guide and moderate it's effects then the unsupervised site is likely to be careless, maximizing short term yield at the cost of clear-cutting or denuding the area.

    An unattended worksite needs to be shut down/destroyed to protect nature.

    Goblin Squad Member

    Hell's bells, I'd like Druids to spawn trees one day and such mining to despawn trees and graphically degrade the area as well as influence the numbers which is the most important part. Yeah so to begin with I like Being's suggestion: Druid skill to increase yield/rate/recovery and so on. Very fitting and you want Druids right at the outer limits of the inputs to settlements

    Goblin Squad Member

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    AvenaOats wrote:
    Hell's bells, I'd like Druids to spawn trees one day and such mining to despawn trees and graphically degrade the area as well as influence the numbers which is the most important part. Yeah so to begin with I like Being's suggestion: Druid skill to increase yield/rate/recovery and so on. Very fitting and you want Druids right at the outer limits of the inputs to settlements

    Only real problem with that is the metagamey side that will arise from it. IE while it may be druid like to help replace trees that go back. It isn't very druid like to pop trees up in front of the guy with an axe. In lore you would expect the druid to be trying to make the lumberjacks focus more on sustainability, keeping the forest alive etc... IE keeping the priority goal as the survival of the forest, and balancing ensuring the humanoids are able to fit into the balance.

    In an MMO, especially one with competition as a heavy motivator, you can expect the druids concern for the value of nature, to be limited exclusively to where it benefits the humans. "Oh we have a different harvesting site, let me buff this one up a bit so you can get the most of it while driving it to the ground before we make our sustained forest the second one".

    Then again, we could have a plausible route from that... Mechanics could be tweaked to encourage better options.

    1. Resources regen based on their max. IE lets say the max value is 1,000, at 800+ the forest regens 50/hr. 700-799 40/hr, 600-699 30hr 500-599 25/hr, 400-499 20/hr, 300-399 10/hr, 299 and below, node is effectively dying, A costly spell can grant it 5/hr regen, until it re-reaches 300 and can slowly start growing back up.

    With the exception of the 300- druids have an ability that can increase these regen rates by X%

    Now, to further it though, The druids should also still have motivation to keep these sites high, even if their settlement no longer needs it. Druid's training and possibly some of their abilities, are affected by an overall "thriving" status. IE for the druids to gain the most of their abilities, (with the exception of the lower skills that are available from NPCs, as this won't apply to the NPC settlements for obvious reasons), The thriving status would be an extra stat to a city, based on the amount of healthy forests etc... within their claimed hexes.

    It still has the drawback of the druid will have no motivation to care outside of their territory, and most likely will be happy to aid a scorched earth burn down the enemies forest type of plan, but as a whole, it covers most of the goals.

    Goblin Squad Member

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    Ryan Dancey wrote:


    You'll also potentially gain some resources when you defeat monsters. Some monsters may be the only source of some resources - making those monsters essentially very valuable wandering resource nodes.

    How long before this quote starts showing up in at least three different threads and gets posted multiple times by Nihimon? :)

    Also, the CEO just said harvesting would be not "fun" at first, probably even slow, hard and boring as hell. Who wants to bet a significant part of the crafting comunitty will see that not as a bug, but as a feature? ( as the value of the craft goods just went up!)

    Goblin Squad Member

    Onishi wrote:

    Now, to further it though, The druids should also still have motivation to keep these sites high, even if their settlement no longer needs it. Druid's training and possibly some of their abilities, are affected by an overall "thriving" status. IE for the druids to gain the most of their abilities, (with the exception of the lower skills that are available from NPCs, as this won't apply to the NPC settlements for obvious reasons), The thriving status would be an extra stat to a city, based on the amount of healthy forests etc... within their claimed hexes.

    It still has the drawback of the druid will have no motivation to care outside of their territory, and most likely will be happy to aid a scorched earth burn down the enemies forest type of plan, but as a whole, it covers most of the goals.

    Brilliant. That's exactly the trade-off Druids need for such a skill plus non-stacking and even x1 per hex (jealous Druids). The idea of some forms of magic investing some of their power into something else (eg Sauron, Voldermort etc) is a very old idea but excellent if it can find a place! Plus the olde wax and wane in power as extraction maxes and mins.

    George Velez wrote:


    How long before this quote starts showing up in at least three different threads and gets posted multiple times by Nihimon? :)

    As well it might. Set mining to 100%. :)

    Goblin Squad Member

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    Wood and Gold extraction are a couple of examples that illustrate the differences in solo vs group harvesting/gathering. A solo gold miner has minimal equipment. He goes out, digs and pans, and returns with a little bit. A small gold operation involves multiple people (or one person with multiple minions), additional equipment (sluice, wheelbarrows, screens, water storage and diverters), and returns a larger amount. This is an impermanent setup that can be moved (with difficulty) to another site. A large gold operation is a gold mine. Lots of minions digging and extracting, heavy equipment investment, permanent, and requires substantial oversight and logistics to keep operational.

    Wood is similar. A solo wood gatherer goes out with an ax to fell a tree, and spikes to split the tree for transport. Low equipment outlay, high time requirement, low return, low operational overhead. A group can take more advanced equipment (multi-user saws, block and tackle cranes, horse-powered splitters, wagons) and harvest more, more efficiently. Moderate equipment outlay, moderate time requirement, moderate return, moderate operational overhead. A large scale operation can set up a more effective pre-processing location (sawmill), and use more equipment to generate a higher volume of throughput, at the expense of increased operational oversight and logistics.

    In in-game terms, the soloist is a single player who relies on himself to do everything. This has a low equipment outlay, high time requirement, low return, low overhead, high mobility, and low security. Nominally these are the folks who target the high value, rare resources to maximize the value for their time.

    A camp relies on NPC labor to do the actual work. It's set up by one or more players who then oversee its operation and tend to security. It has a moderate equipment outlay (kit constructed for the task), a moderate time requirement, moderate return, moderate overhead, low mobility (encumbrance and time to set up), and moderate security (PC and NPC). These camps provide the bulk of the general-use resources, and could be the beneficiaries of any mini-games to increase set-up time or productivity at the cost of PC security.

    A POI structure is the large-scale operation. The gold mines and the sawmills. This is overseen by one or more players and may be associated with a specific settlement. They require a substantial outlay to set up, low player time requirements to operate, a high return, have a high overhead to maintain (lower if slaves or undead are used?), no mobility, and a security variable to the portion of NPC guards assigned and PCs available to respond to a threat. Basically these are structures that are established and produce the goods at a relatively steady rate with no player input. The players just need to pay an upkeep for them, transport the product, and provide additional security.

    In EVE terms, the soloist is the miner the large-scale operation are the moon-goo POS. EVE doesn't really have the Camp option, the closest it comes is a Rorqual-boosted mining operation or PI.

    Goblin Squad Member

    Nice analysis, Sintaqx. Your identification of Equipment, Time, Return, Overhead, Mobility, and Security as the key factors seems spot-on.

    Goblin Squad Member

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    Imagine if their is a gold rush. If you go by RL events, most gold miners will be solo because of paranoia and greed.

    Mining settlements could spring up where merchants fleece out the gold miners with outrageous prices. 10gp glass of whisky and 100gp for 1 hour with the 'cleanest' prostitute in the tavern.

    Goblinworks Executive Founder

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    The prices of the gold rush were high, but they were fair. That whiskey had to be carried across the mountains, just like everything else. When the local population exceeds the food supply, the cost of food will exceed the local money supply.

    Goblin Squad Member

    Banesama wrote:
    Imagine if their is a gold rush. If you go by RL events, most gold miners will be solo because of paranoia and greed.

    I'm not sure that's accurate. I've read lots of accounts of miners combining claims, so 2 or 3 or more miners worked together. Sometimes family, sometimes just from the same place originally. Even when you're greedy and paranoid it's good to have someone to watch your back.

    I think even working nodes, small teams (2-4 total) could be a little more effective than one person working alone. Moving that 180 lb boulders out of the way to get the placer gold under might be harder for one guy than three.

    Goblin Squad Member

    DeciusBrutus wrote:
    The prices of the gold rush were high, but they were fair. That whiskey had to be carried across the mountains, just like everything else. When the local population exceeds the food supply, the cost of food will exceed the local money supply.

    Just to add to this, the same is true of portable generators after hurricanes and such. If the people driving them in from three states away aren't allowed to charge a significant profit, there's no incentive for them to actually drive them in from three states away.

    Goblinworks Executive Founder

    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Nihimon wrote:
    DeciusBrutus wrote:
    The prices of the gold rush were high, but they were fair. That whiskey had to be carried across the mountains, just like everything else. When the local population exceeds the food supply, the cost of food will exceed the local money supply.
    Just to add to this, the same is true of portable generators after hurricanes and such. If the people driving them in from three states away aren't allowed to charge a significant profit, there's no incentive for them to actually drive them in from three states away.

    With the practical result being that the anti-gouging laws which prohibit price increases following disasters make it harder to find needed supplies in the aftermath.

    I know that after Hurricane Charley, there was a shingle shortage in the Southeast for years, because the price was frozen and the rest of the chain didn't suddenly change.

    I think that a massive shift in demand of something in PFO could cause such an effect, if transportation is expensive (in time, coin, or risk)

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