My Lore Warden / Maneuver Master Tripping Grappler Build

[Argus The Slayer]

I've been playing with the idea of a unarmed combatant that focuses on tripping and grappling, but the build is very feat-starved to do the things I want to do (mostly getting to Binding Throw as soon as possible). I worked out a build that lets me (on a full attack) trip my opponent and then strike him twice (including Vicious Stomp) and then grapple him - starting at third level. Anyway, please take a look and let me know what you think.

Connor MacGreggor
Human Fighter/Monk (Lore Warden/Maneuver Master)
S:18 D:14 C:14 I:12 W:12 Ch:7

1) MM1 Improved Trip; Combat Reflexes; Vicious Stomp; Improved Unarmed Strike
2) MM2 Improved Grapple; (Evasion)
3) LW1 Ki Throw; Binding Throw
4) LW2; Combat Expertise; Snapping Turtle Style
5) LW3 Snapping Turtle Clutch; (+2 to CMB/CMD)
6) LW4 Iron Will or Jawbreaker
7) LW5 Greater Grapple (WT: +1/+1)
8) LW6 Greater Trip
9) UF7 Rapid Grappler (+4 to CMB/CMD)
10) UF8 Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
11) UF9 Greater Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (Weapon training: +2/+2)

[jerrys]

You'd need int 13 for greater trip. I think maybe you have "UF" left over from an edit. I'm not sure if weapon-focusing on unarmed strikes is a good idea (you could use whatever weapon when convenient). Though, specialization would be nice for when you are grappling. You'd need some king of AoMF or something to be able to bypass damage reduction.

This is just curiosity - I have a similar character - which weapon training(s) are you thinking of taking? I'm not sure if monk or close is better. Close applies to armor spikes, which are probably good when you are grappling.
What do you think about taking monk 3? I like the "awesomeness" of the "ha! that silly kraken just tried to grapple me, so i punched it in the face". But i think on the whole it is not as good as a fighter level.

[Argus The Slayer]

Thanks for the feedback, Jerrys.

Yeah, I forgot about the 13 INT for Greater Trip. I'll have to decide if I want to put more into Int, or just skip the Greater Trip - but I love the extra damage form greater trip when I can use Ki Throw to position for the most ally attacks on the trip.

You are right: the UF7 was from an earlier iteration that I tried with Unarmed Fighter, but I think I like Lore Warden better overall - especially with the extra Combat Expertise bonus feat, which was tough to fit in.

The weapon foci for unarmed strike was really an afterthought (I couldn't think of any really awesome feats to fit in those slots), but I anticipate using unarmed strike most of the time, since Ki Throw specifies that the trip must be "unarmed".

I am planning on going with Brawling Elven Chain for the most AC for light armor, plus Weapon Training with (eventually) Gloves of Dueling.

If I do go for the 3rd level of Monk, I will probably go for 4, so that I can pickup Ki Pool, too. The best break points for Lore Warden are 5, 7 or 9, so that would still work well with the build. I played with the idea of snagging one level of Living Monolith (for the swift Enlarge), but the Endurance feat tax is tough to fit into this feat-starved build. Something to think about, anyway.

Picking up Power Attack at some point might be a nice option, so that I have something productive to do if I can't trip or grapple the monster: Connor will likely have 22 STR (with a +2 belt) at level 8, so power attack with a greatsword or some other big two-hander would still be a viable option as a fallback plan.

[666bender]

I thi I it's a great , fun build that also cover good skills and stealth!
I would think of a few things :
1) drop weapon focus and take dirty trick - it effect everything and allow great things like blind
2) make sure intimidate is maxed it's another thing to do when not in melee
3) take power attack and carry a big blade - for fighting the burning flying demon
4) an odd advice for highter levels : dip 1 level into alchemist to get the enlarge you wanted or grab 1 level into shadow dancer ( heavy feat tax) to be a real mobile terror

[666bender]

Another advice,
Instead of wp focus, dodge and crane style , going to crane wing - best defence feat in the game

[666bender]

Last advice :
Felling smash will allow 2 attacks and a move that provoke twice....
It's better than all the pounce ever

[Argus The Slayer]

Thanks for the replies, Bender. The build is for PFS, so I don't really have room for the four feats it takes to get to Crane Riposte. Felling Smash is kind of a trap in my mind, kind of like Vital Strike. It provides a great option when all you have is a standard action, but it is super weak when compared to a full round attack.

With the build that I have proposed you would tend to make a move action up to our opponent, and then initiate a trip (with Ki Throw), followed up with two attacks of opportunity, once for Improved Trip and once (after they are prone) for Vicious Stomp - and then you can initiate a Grapple as a swift action. I don't see how Felling Smash adds much to that scenario.

[Finlanderboy]

You do not get greater trip until 6 bab. Spend your level 4 stat bump on int. Easy peasy lemon squeezy

Infact I thought that was your plan when I first looked over this and never thought anything of it.

[Argus The Slayer]

That would meet the prereqs, Finlanderboy, but paying for an 18 STR and then using a stat bump to raise INT from a 12 to a 13 (instead of boosting STR to 20 by level 8) doesn't make a lot of sense, IMO. Dropping the WIS to an 11 and starting with a 13 INT works for me.

[666bender]

Argus The Slayer wrote:

Thanks for the replies, Bender. The build is for PFS, so I don't really have room for the four feats it takes to get to Crane Riposte. Felling Smash is kind of a trap in my mind, kind of like Vital Strike. It provides a great option when all you have is a standard action, but it is super weak when compared to a full round attack.

With the build that I have proposed you would tend to make a move action up to our opponent, and then initiate a trip (with Ki Throw), followed up with two attacks of opportunity, once for Improved Trip and once (after they are prone) for Vicious Stomp - and then you can initiate a Grapple as a swift action. I don't see how Felling Smash adds much to that scenario.

I disagree.

In the game you move a lot ...
What you wrote is right but add yet another attack with felli g smash when you can't full attack...
Move 30 feet - attack hard with power attack, that trigger trip that trigger 2 AOO that trigger a grapple.
One of the AOO make non learhel with enforcer feat and you got :
Move, enemy has prone, shaken, grapple condition in 1 standard !

[Argus The Slayer]

If you can find a way to stuff power attack and enforcer into the build (other than at lvl 11 ;), please let me know.

[666bender]

They are both better than the style feats .
Your AC will be so low - you won't be missed .

[Argus The Slayer]

Thanks for your input, Bender. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Anybody else have any advice? Where's Bruno?

[Oddman80]

666bender wrote:

I disagree.

In the game you move a lot ...
What you wrote is right but add yet another attack with felli g smash when you can't full attack...
Move 30 feet - attack hard with power attack, that trigger trip that trigger 2 AOO that trigger a grapple.
One of the AOO make non learhel with enforcer feat and you got :
Move, enemy has prone, shaken, grapple condition in 1 standard !

I know this is a complete Thread Necro - but i am working on a Maneiver Master Monk, and i was reading this thread for advice, and i saw something that was incorrect.

The combination of Combat Reflexes + Felling Smash + Greater Trip + Vicious Stomp + Binding Throw WILL NOT allow you to Attack then trip then make two AoOs and then begin a grapple, as is suggested above.

Felling Smash requires you to burn your Swift action to make the trip attempt. As such you no longer have a swift action available to you to perform a Binding Throw.

The combination WILL allow you to toss in the Enforcer feat for a free demoralize check if one of your attacks of opportunity after the trip attempt is done using non-lethal damage, so it is still an incredibly strong combination. I just wanted to correct the misinformation within the thread.