Help me put this concept into PFS


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Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Hrm, this whole thread might be moot now, as I just agreed to trade someone for an ifrit boon. Wonder what I'll do with that...


Jiggy wrote:

Hrm, what if I did an EK along these lines?

Raise your hand if you saw this coming.

You've been fussing with EK builds for a while now.
I'd like to play one too. Interested in seeing build concepts...

*edit*
Question I have is: Is there a build progression with EK that allows for a guy who can melee and cast with decent DCs? I'd like to toss a Fireball or two. Maybe I just live with it always doing half. Need to do more reading.


Jiggy wrote:
Oh come on, I even gave you the Smiley of Amiable Intentions!

:-)


Jiggy wrote:
Hrm, this whole thread might be moot now, as I just agreed to trade someone for an ifrit boon. Wonder what I'll do with that...

No one would expect an ifrit aquatic sorcerer!

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

lol


Winter witch! Winter witch!


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
No one would expect an ifrit aquatic sorcerer!

I'll bite

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Havoq wrote:
Question I have is: Is there a build progression with EK that allows for a guy who can melee and cast with decent DCs? I'd like to toss a Fireball or two. Maybe I just live with it always doing half. Need to do more reading.

a (base) aasimar, sohei 1/empyreal sorc 1/EK can rock a pretty solid DC (which is good because their melee dpr tends to lag behind other builds)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Havoq wrote:
Question I have is: Is there a build progression with EK that allows for a guy who can melee and cast with decent DCs? I'd like to toss a Fireball or two. Maybe I just live with it always doing half. Need to do more reading.

Save-based casting requires a mental stat as a priority, probably an 18 to start.

Melee requires a physical stat as a priority, probably a 16-18 to start (depending on BAB and available buffs).

Thus, to do both, you need to support both. That means you effectively have two "primary" ability scores.

Assuming a 20pt buy and a goal of 18 in primary stats:
A pair of 18s means (pre-racial) a pair of 16s. This means that to have anything higher than a 10 (CON, I'm looking at you), something else has to go down: so either we have a dump stat or two, or we compromise on our original goals.

So we need a race that gives bonuses to our fighting stat and our casting stat, and then we need something we can dump to pay for CON.

A dual-talent human will fit any combination of fighting/casting stats, so that's a great option.

For an EK, your casting stat is probably INT, since non-INT arcane casters will further delay your spell progression.

And since you're arcane, AC is an issue. That is, a battle cleric could select STR as his fighting stat and take Heavy Armor Proficiency to have a decent AC for all his melee fighting. But an EK has to either invest two feats and 4k gold just to get to medium armor, or you have to settle for mage armor/shield and spend actions on buffs like blur/displacement/mirror image.

Either path will require care: the armor route can pick STR as their fighting stat (more damage, and save a feat on Finesse; but AC requirements mean at least a little DEX and therefore more stat-dumping), while the magic route can pick DEX as their fighting stat (less stat-dumping and no Arcane Armor Training/Mastery feats, plus you don't spend nearly as much wealth on AC; but you need Finesse right off the bat, do less damage unless you invest in dervish dance or agile, and are more dependent on buffs).

If you go STR/INT, then you pretty much need to be a dual-talent human (unless there's some race I don't know about that your home GM allows, but in PFS, this is it). If you go DEX/INT, then you're looking at either elf or tiefling (and most pick tiefling, preferring -CHA to -CON for a melee caster).

So there you have it: if you're not matching a particular concept and you're just going for an EK who can both fight and do offensive casting, you're probably either doing an armored STR/INT human who can jump right into the fight and can devote most spell slots to offense but spends 90% of his wealth and two feats on armor, or you're doing a dervish-dancing tiefling who has more cash to throw around but needs to split spell slots between offense and defense and has to spend actions buffing before entering melee.

At least, that's my take on your query. :)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

@jiggy- i'm not a huge fan of ifrits, but if you wanna play one:

i think they'd make for an interesting pally (either 2wpn-S&B, or archer) with the unsanctioned knowledge feat to pick up some more fire based spells and the racial feats for flame weapons if you can squeeze them in. that's obviously a MAD build (but if you're playing an ifrit IMO you must not be too concerned with optimizing...

another option would be to embrace the cliche and just go elemental[fire] sorcerer- you could start with 20 Cha (counts as 22) and still have a decent Dex; trade the racial fire resist for the init bonus cause you'll get resist from sorc and you'll have a caster who's quick to act and tosses around magical fire that's hard to escape/resist.

edit: also, my Wis based EK addresses several of the issues you raised- though it does depend on either a guided amulet of mighty fists (which is not PFS legal, if i understand correctly) or self-buffs to deal damage...


Great info. Lots to think about.

I don't follow how a the Human EK concept meets the PrC requirement for 3rd level spells in two levels. 1. Fighter, 2. Wizard, 3. EK. Maybe you're delayed or I'm missing a trick?

I wonder if a Tiefling "Big Hitter" build is an option since that lowers the to-hit requirements. This looks promising. I'm short on time, but I have some other thoughts I'll share another time.

Wondering about Socrcerer over Wizard...maybe with Tiefling. Can you make the PrC at 3...etc.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The way to get into EK at 3rd is by having your wizard level be a Divination (scrying) focused wizard. This gets you an SLA based on clairaudience/clairvoyance, which is 3rd level. Last I heard, this is the only race-agnostic means of early EK entry.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Havoq wrote:
I don't follow how a the Human EK concept meets the PrC requirement for 3rd level spells in two levels. 1. Fighter, 2. Wizard, 3. EK. Maybe you're delayed or I'm missing a trick?

there are 2 requirements for EK:

1. proficient with all martial weapons- fighter meets this (so would paladin, or barbarian, or sohei, just to name a few)
2. 3rd level arcane spell (or SLA, as per the ruling not that long ago)- you obviously can't get actual 3rd level spells by 2nd character level, but a base aasimar gets daylight as an SLA (so he technically could take a level of fighter/whatever and take EK @2nd) and a wizard with the divination:scryer school gets a clairaudience/clairvoyance SLA (so they qualify after one level from #1 and one scryer level).

Shadow Lodge

Try a Bladebound Fiend Flayer. Fiend Flayer gives up nothing, so you may as well (it isn't very good, but if you REALLY need an arcane pool point, it works) focused on a Bastard Sword. You need to burn your 3rd level feat on proficiency, but you never see Magi wielding B-Swords because all of them crit fish (with a good enough reason I suppose). Or you could go Falcata for the x3 crit (again rather rare in Magi).


Lots of great info there.

I'm seeing that Mithral Kikko + Arcane Armor training is 0% failure chance to cast arcane spells. Is that the goto armor for EK?

And it looks like you lose your favored class bonus for each level of EK you take. *grumbles*


I am having visions of a menace holding a (size Large)Impact Bastard Sword. An 18K sword is wishful thinking at L7...but there is potential here.

Tiefling...?
Barbarian 1, Wizard(divination) 1, EK 5.
Feats: EWP: Bastard Sword, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Vital Strike and Furious Finish. Have one feat left over or two if you're human.

I think that's 6D8+bonus...and you get Furious Finish.
Cast True Strike, Rage then...!
If you can get Enlarge Person off it's 8D8+bonus for one big hit...maximized.

Grand Lodge

Well, there are ways to enter the Eldritch Knight PrC at 2nd/3rd level.

That would fit your concept.

See here.


Jiggy wrote:

I was curious about the kensai, though I'm concerned about my AC. Would I use bracers? Cast mage armor a lot (or use a wand)? The reduced spellcasting is also a bit scary.

I dunno... I have mixed feelings about the kensai. Tempting, but I'm also wary.

And what about an arcane trickster? Or am I kidding myself with that?

One of my first Pathfinder characters was an Elven Kensai, and I absolutely loved him. It was in a Kingmaker Campaign so I used an Aldori Dueling Sword. My initutive and AC were ridiculously high, although they don't start out that way. Not having Mage Armor on the spell list is rough, but I didn't really miss the reduced spell casting. I would highly recommend wand weilder and a level 5 Shocking Grasp wand.


Thanks BBT. That link is genius.


So, Jiggy - what did you end up making with your Ifrit?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

You think I can decide on a character that fast? Besides, I don't physically have the boon yet. Trading by mail. :)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Havoq wrote:

I am having visions of a menace holding a (size Large)Impact Bastard Sword. An 18K sword is wishful thinking at L7...but there is potential here.

Tiefling...?
Barbarian 1, Wizard(divination) 1, EK 5.
Feats: EWP: Bastard Sword, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Vital Strike and Furious Finish. Have one feat left over or two if you're human.

I think that's 6D8+bonus...and you get Furious Finish.
Cast True Strike, Rage then...!
If you can get Enlarge Person off it's 8D8+bonus for one big hit...maximized.

enlarge person only affects humanoids- tieflings are native outsiders so they can't be targeted by it... also, if you take urban barbarian you can continue to cast spells while raging (though you won't get the con bonus)


Good point on EP. This build works for Human too, but yep!
The idea is that you rage/swing/end rage...due to Furish Finish all in the same round.

Jiggy wrote:
You think I can decide on a character that fast? Besides, I don't physically have the boon yet. Trading by mail. :)

I wouldn't be able to. Takes weeks...at least..for me to decide. :P

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Well, here's a start...

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