I currently DM a three man party. There's a wizard and two fighters: And what different fighters there are!
The first is a dwarf free hand fighter. Sub-optimal archetype, I know, but the player is very good at role playing the character and this guy is great at pulling off combat maneuvers even though damage is lacking.
The second fighter (mobile fighter archetype) is a bit of cheese I designed (the player is new so I did the sheet). He has weapon finesse and dervish dance, and with his scimitar he does massive damage.
The guy who played the dwarf asked how a dex based fighter could be doing that sort of damage, and when I told him about dervish dance he was taken aback. He brought up interesting points that I didn't know how to counter.
1) "I thought the point of a dex based build was that you were supposed to do less damage than a guy with huge muscles and a giant axe"
2) "The entire fear applies only to the scimitar? How do you justify that?"
This whole line of inquiry left me questioning my decision to build (or even allow) a dervish dance character. What do you guys think of dervish dance? Is it fine as it is or do you extend it to all other weapons covered by weapon finesse? Or is it just unfair cheese-sauce you would never allow in your campaign?
1. the point of the dex based build isnt to do less damage, it's to expand the build's range of bonuses to include dex bonus to AC, etc. It's a power creep feat for those who don't wish to dump into two seperate stats.
2. Magic Feat tax. If they corner it into one specific blade, either by rule or theme, then there aren't players doing it with greatswords, great clubs, and great axes.
The people here love the feat and will defend it at every turn. The design team strongly disagrees with that, and that's why all the Dex to damage abilities are either in the campaign setting line or as Mythic abilities.
Decide for yourself if you want it in your games.
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I tend to like the Dex fighters. I have limited interest in playing bruisers so I tend to prefer them.
I can understand the issue but I dont believe it's too much of a problem because:
-High dex fighters, while advantaged in AC at lower level, start loosing that advantage once heavy armor gets into play (I havent seen it in actions, but checking some build I've made armor always ends up being better than dex in the long run UNLESS you have ungodly dex, like more than 30 dex).
-The whole "one weapon" thing. I wont complain, the scimitar is a great weapon. But if someone could finesse a d12 weapon they would. Dervish dancer DO do less damage, they cant go higher than a d6.
By the time you're at high level, the dex guy is doing less damage and has less AC. Only big advantage is to Initiative and reflex (and a few skills)
Then again, it is your choice to make as GM. I tend to favor it (I dislike most "bruiser" builds) but I can understand why some people dont like it. I also dislike single ability dependant builds, so I dont want to see someone dumping everything to boost their dex either. If someone has below an 8 stat, they better have a darned good explanation.
Note: One think that I dont get is the whole Strength=To hit bonus. How is a lumbering behemoth with plenty of strength more likely "to hit" someone. He'll do a hell of a lot more damage, but he shouldnt have much more accuracy (my little rant on the whole strength vs dex thing)
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Dex builds still do less damage. You can't 2hand your weapon, and you might not have access to Power Attack if your Str is too low.
I would expand Dervish Dance to all finesse weapons. The dex-based warrior is among my favorite archetypes.
give the dwarven freehand fighter permission to rebuild his character
Dex to damage requires an investment of either 2 feats, or a feat and a weapon enhancement
an investment that will put most strength based 2hand builds pretty far ahead
or point out the defensive advantages of the dwarf for an otherwise fragile fighter. Saving throw bonuses (Steel Soul), extra HP, better will, and a dodge bonus against a common mid level creature type.
Dex builds still do less damage. You can't 2hand your weapon, and you might not have access to Power Attack if your Str is too low.
I would expand Dervish Dance to all finesse weapons. The dex-based warrior is among my favorite archetypes.
i agree with this
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Dervish Dance is generally considered an unusually powerful feat, possibly an overpowered feat. Doing less damage isn't the point of a dex-based build, but is is supposed to be part of the package in exchange for the extra Dex benefits shadowmage75 mentioned.
I like the concept and don't think the power issue is too bad, but it's a bit of a shame that it makes the scimitar the go-to weapon for a Dex-based non-TWF character. The scimitar connection is for flavour reasons. It's supposed to be connected to the worship of Sarenrae, who uses the scimitar.
In my next campaign I've decided to split it into two feats. (1) allows you to use any one-handed slashing or piercing weapon with Weapon Finesse, and (2) allows you to add your Dex bonus to damage with a weapon you can Finesse. The latter can't be taken until level 5. Neither can be used with a shield, second weapon, or two-handed weapon.
The scimitar is already one of the better one-handed weapons (aside from a few exotic weapons like the Falcata or Katana which require additional feat investment), so I don't see (1) as a problem.
It certainly doesn't strike me as a problem to let someone take an extra feat to add Dex to damage when wielding a single already finesseable weapon (like a dagger or rapier) and no shield.
I tend to like the Dex fighters. I have limited interest in playing bruisers so I tend to prefer them.
I can understand the issue but I dont believe it's too much of a problem because:
-High dex fighters, while advantaged in AC at lower level, start loosing that advantage once heavy armor gets into play (I havent seen it in actions, but checking some build I've made armor always ends up being better than dex in the long run UNLESS you have ungodly dex, like more than 30 dex).
-The whole "one weapon" thing. I wont complain, the scimitar is a great weapon. But if someone could finesse a d12 weapon they would. Dervish dancer DO do less damage, they cant go higher than a d6.
By the time you're at high level, the dex guy is doing less damage and has less AC. Only big advantage is to Initiative and reflex (and a few skills)
Then again, it is your choice to make as GM. I tend to favor it (I dislike most "bruiser" builds) but I can understand why some people dont like it. I also dislike single ability dependant builds, so I dont want to see someone dumping everything to boost their dex either. If someone has below an 8 stat, they better have a darned good explanation.
Note: One think that I dont get is the whole Strength=To hit bonus. How is a lumbering behemoth with plenty of strength more likely "to hit" someone. He'll do a hell of a lot more damage, but he shouldnt have much more accuracy (my little rant on the whole strength vs dex thing)
weapon damage dice are irrelevant compared to static bonuses applied in excess
Dervish Dance is generally considered an unusually powerful feat, possibly an overpowered feat. Doing less damage isn't the point of a dex-based build, but is is supposed to be part of the package in exchange for the extra Dex benefits shadowmage75 mentioned.
I like the concept and don't think the power issue is too bad, but it's a bit of a shame that it makes the scimitar the go-to weapon for a Dex-based non-TWF character. The scimitar connection is for flavour reasons. It's supposed to be connected to the worship of Sarenrae, who uses the scimitar.
In my next campaign I've decided to split it into two feats. (1) allows you to use any one-handed slashing or piercing weapon with Weapon Finesse, and (2) allows you to add your Dex bonus to damage with a weapon you can Finesse. The latter can't be taken until level 5. Neither can be used with a shield, second weapon, or two-handed weapon.
The scimitar is already one of the better one-handed weapons (aside from a few exotic weapons like the Falcata or Katana which require additional feat investment), so I don't see (1) as a problem.
It certainly doesn't strike me as a problem to let someone take an extra feat to add Dex to damage when wielding a single already finesseable weapon (like a dagger or rapier) and no shield.
it's not that it is unusually powerful, it's that it is a highly restricted and highly niche option that sets off a lot of cheese radars, not for power, but due to it's appearance on paper.
even if you got dex to damage for a 2 feat investment at the lowest levels and had the ability to dual wield the same light weapon, it wouldn't be as powerful as the 2hand guy. the benefits of dexterity only matter at the low levels where bonuses to reflex and armor class are rare.
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It's hard to complain about a Dex fighter dumping his points into a single stat to be as good as a Str fighter.
Why? Because Str fighters are single stat fighters too!
Dex bonus to AC? Rubbish! The combination of Dex bonus and armour bonus is +9 with medium armour and +10 with full plate. You only need a Dex of 12 to get the best basic AC, so the Str fighter can still dump enough points into that single stat to max it out and still get his Dex to 12.
The objection to Dervish Dance being able to let a fighter only use one stat is bogus simply because the game itself has always allowed fighters to concentrate on one stat, Strength!
Ask Mr. Dwarfy to try, say, wielding a greataxe or greatsword. Maybe take the fighter archetype that supports it.
1) "I thought the point of a dex based build was that you were supposed to do less damage than a guy with huge muscles and a giant axe"
That guy never heard of rogues, I suppose.
2) "The entire fear applies only to the scimitar? How do you justify that?"
Quarterstaff master apply only to quarterstaff, how do he justify that?
This whole line of inquiry left me questioning my decision to build (or even allow) a dervish dance character. What do you guys think of dervish dance? Is it fine as it is or do you extend it to all other weapons covered by weapon finesse? Or is it just unfair cheese-sauce you would never allow in your campaign?
It's a feat with a useless requisite. Weapon finesse is not applicable to scimitar. That's only Dervish Dance that allow that. You call it cheesy just for reducing the MAD?
Well the TC said that dwarf is a free-hand fighter and uses manuevers. His focus is clearly not in damage, but if it were, he'd be outdoing the Dervish with extremely little effort.
I'd refute jerry's post, but Malachi does a good job of it. The Str-based warriors can just wear heavy armor.
Dervish Dance is an above-par feat, much like Crane Style. My opinion is that the par is too low however. These feats do something significant for martials, rather than give you a simple +1 bonus to hit.
(I think that's a good thing)
Dervish Dance is good. It makes Dex based fighters viable.
Dervish Dance is not overpowered. Viable does not mean better or more damaging than a Str based guy can get.
Look at ~10.
Say a guy has 24 Str vs a Dervish Dancer with 24 Dex. They're both using a Scimitar one-handed.
Dervish Dancer adds +7 static damage to his hit. If he gets Power Attack, he can add another +4.
The Str guy gets +7 static damage to his hit. If he gets Power Attack, he can add another +4.
Equal, currently, but the DD guy has a higher Ref save (assuming Full Plate vs Light Armor or Mithral Breastplate here, the AC values should be mostly comparable).
However, the Str guy can two hand his weapon. Then he gets +10 static damage per hit. And if he gets Power Attack, he adds another +6.
Oh and the Str guy may actually be able to achieve a higher AC while maintaining the same damage, since he can use a shield.
Let's see that real quick.
Mithral Chain Shirt and 24 Dex is +10 AC (Mithral Breastplate would be +11).
Full Plate and light shield, with 10 Dex, is +10 as well (+11 with a Heavy shield). Now, the guy is unlikely to have a mere 10 Dex (at least 12, I'd say, but more likely 14) so his AC should be higher, but it's AT LEAST comparable.
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it's not that it is unusually powerful, it's that it is a highly restricted and highly niche option that sets off a lot of cheese radars, not for power, but due to it's appearance on paper.
even if you got dex to damage for a 2 feat investment at the lowest levels and had the ability to dual wield the same light weapon, it wouldn't be as powerful as the 2hand guy. the benefits of dexterity only matter at the low levels where bonuses to reflex and armor class are rare.
I haven't crunched numbers. I just know that Dervish Dance is largely regarded as a must-have feat on the forums for non-TWF Dex builds (similar to Power Attack for two-hand fighters), that the feat creator apparently said it was in hindsight too powerful, and that non-scimitar or TWF dex builds highly recommend Agile weapons to get the same Dex-to-Damage benefit. I am suspicious of must-have options.
Petty Alchemy's point that it's "above par, with par set too low" sounds accurate to me.
Like my post indicated, I like what Dervish Dance does, but don't like it being limited to one weapon. I didn't mention that while I'm requiring two feats for the benefit of Dervish Dance, everyone gets Weapon Finesse for free. So it's not much harder to make a scimitar build (same feat investment, you just wait 2 more levels), it's easier to make a dex build with a typical finesse weapon, and it's possible to make a battleaxe-based, falcata-based, or katana-based dex build.
Quarterstaff master apply only to quarterstaff, how do he justify that?
Quarterstaff Master allows you to use a quarterstaff in a new way (one-handed) but it doesn't make the Quarterstaff better than other one-handed weapons. Dervish Dance lets you use a scimitar in a new way (with Finesse) and gives an added bonus that makes the scimitar better than other finesse weapons (as long as you're OK with leaving a hand free).
Also the Quarterstaff isn't a very strong weapon even with Quarterstaff Master, so anyone taking those feats is already in it for the flavour and the feats just help them be mechanically decent. Because Scimitar + Dervish Dance is such a good combo, many players feel as if they have to choose between the flavour of a particular weapon (such as a rapier) and the mechanical strength of Dervish Dance. That's not a good decision to have to make - and it's not about "all weapons being equal" because even if you could add Dex to damage with both, Scimitar beats dagger or most other finesseable weapons.
It's a feat with a useless requisite. Weapon finesse is not applicable to scimitar. That's only Dervish Dance that allow that. You call it cheesy just for reducing the MAD?
Well, it's a bit odd to have a feat that gives you essentially twice the benefit of Weapon Finesse (dex to hit and to damage) without requiring Weapon Finesse, even with the specific weapon + free hand restrictions. And even if you can't use Weapon Finesse with a scimitar without Dervish Dance, you can still use it with a dagger, rapier, etc. If I were playing a Dervish Dancer I wouldn't want to use a scimitar with my likely-low Str at levels 1-2, I'd want to use a standard finesse weapon.
One think that I dont get is the whole Strength=To hit bonus. How is a lumbering behemoth with plenty of strength more likely "to hit" someone. He'll do a hell of a lot more damage, but he shouldnt have much more accuracy (my little rant on the whole strength vs dex thing)
Actually, in the real world, swordfighting (and I presume melee combat in general, but I only have actual experience with swordfighting) accuracy is a mixture of strength and dexterity. Indeed, I don't now how you could even separate the two in a real-world scenario, since dexterity with a weapon is a function of strength.
These complexities are left out of D&D/Pathfinder because it would merely add another level of needless complication. But if you're talking about what "should" be the case, then the weak but nimble guy might be great at throwing playing cards, but his accuracy with a shinnai will be terrible.
it's not that it is unusually powerful, it's that it is a highly restricted and highly niche option that sets off a lot of cheese radars, not for power, but due to it's appearance on paper.
even if you got dex to damage for a 2 feat investment at the lowest levels and had the ability to dual wield the same light weapon, it wouldn't be as powerful as the 2hand guy. the benefits of dexterity only matter at the low levels where bonuses to reflex and armor class are rare.
I haven't crunched numbers. I just know that Dervish Dance is largely regarded as a must-have feat on the forums for non-TWF Dex builds (similar to Power Attack for two-hand fighters), that the feat creator apparently said it was in hindsight too powerful, and that non-scimitar or TWF dex builds highly recommend Agile weapons to get the same Dex-to-Damage benefit. I am suspicious of must-have options.
Petty Alchemy's point that it's "above par, with par set too low" sounds accurate to me.
Like my post indicated, I like what Dervish Dance does, but don't like it being limited to one weapon. I didn't mention that while I'm requiring two feats for the benefit of Dervish Dance, everyone gets Weapon Finesse for free. So it's not much harder to make a scimitar build (same feat investment, you just wait 2 more levels), it's easier to make a dex build with a typical finesse weapon, and it's possible to make a battleaxe-based, falcata-based, or katana-based dex build.
true, but i wouldn't consider dervish dance overpowered
what makes it seem to be that way, is the lack of options and weapon choices for Dex to Damage.
a generic "Improved Weapon Finesse" that could be taken at level 1 (level 1 if you are a human or a fighter) wouldn't be overpowered if Weapon Finesse were it's only prerequisite
the Advantages of a High Dexterity tend to be short lived unless you have a ridiculously high dexterity score, if you Dex is less than 30, you are generally better off with Armor
all reflex saves do, is mitigate minimal amounts of HP damage
and a Dex build still requires a decent strength if they intend to involve power attack or archery in their combat style. and Dex based melee isn't anything special compared to what you can do with a Falchion or Composite bow. even if you do 2 weapon fighting with full Dex to each hand.
Quarterstaff master apply only to quarterstaff, how do he justify that?
Quarterstaff Master allows you to use a quarterstaff in a new way (one-handed) but it doesn't make the Quarterstaff better than other one-handed weapons. Dervish Dance lets you use a scimitar in a new way (with Finesse) and gives an added bonus that makes the scimitar better than other finesse weapons (as long as you're OK with leaving a hand free).Also the Quarterstaff isn't a very strong weapon even with Quarterstaff Master, so anyone taking those feats is already in it for the flavour and the feats just help them be mechanically decent. Because Scimitar + Dervish Dance is such a good combo, many players feel as if they have to choose between the flavour of a particular weapon (such as a rapier) and the mechanical strength of Dervish Dance. That's not a good decision to have to make - and it's not about "all weapons being equal" because even if you could add Dex to damage with both, Scimitar beats dagger or most other finesseable weapons.
this i agree with, but the Quarterstaff has the advantage of being the only nonexotic double weapon.
I really fail to see any problem here. He is doing such a pathetic amount of damage compared to even a poorly thrown together two-handed fighter. And both are orders of magnitudes inferior to the wizard.
As for justifying a feat that applies to only one weapon? Seems like a silly thing to complain about seeing as there is more then a few feats that apply to only one weapon.
The people here love the feat and will defend it at every turn. The design team strongly disagrees with that, and that's why all the Dex to damage abilities are either in the campaign setting line or as Mythic abilities.
If they disagree with that, then why do they keep publishing more abilities that give dex to damage?
Gunslinger, Agile, Dervish Dance and the newest one, Trench Fighter.
APs/campaign settings or no, it still seems remarkably stupid to feel something is bad for the game and then continually put out more abilities that allow it.
If they disagree with that, then why do they keep publishing more abilities that give dex to damage?The people here love the feat and will defend it at every turn. The design team strongly disagrees with that, and that's why all the Dex to damage abilities are either in the campaign setting line or as Mythic abilities.
Or, you know, Errata Dervish Dance and the rest of it? They can do that.
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1) "I thought the point of a dex based build was that you were supposed to do less damage than a guy with huge muscles and a giant axe"
2) "The entire fear applies only to the scimitar? How do you justify that?"
This whole line of inquiry left me questioning my decision to build (or even allow) a dervish dance character. What do you guys think of dervish dance? Is it fine as it is or do you extend it to all other weapons covered by weapon finesse? Or is it just unfair cheese-sauce you would never allow in your campaign?
Dervish Dance and its ilk are overpowered and your dwarf is justifiably frustrated. Find a way to compensate him (maybe Con to AC with similar limitations?) or nerf Dervish Dance.
Suggesting your dwarf optimize harder isn't a realistic or fair compromise.
It's both realistic and fair. His character is not specced for damage. The Scimitar-swinger is. Therefore, it is entirely logical that he deal less damage than the scimitar-swinger. if he wishes to deal more damage, he needs to take options that make him deal more damage.
I'm playing an Enchantment-heavy sorcerer in a game. Why should I point at other people in the party and whine about dealing less damage, and why should I get a random boost because of it?
This really just sounds like the complaining player is just unwilling to realize that the fault is with him, not the game elements.
Dervish dance is a feat that allows you to be strong at lower levels since it basically gives you the agile weapon property.
But at higher levels, you would find that you are better off with an elven curved blade. Besides the fact that it is a 1d10, 18-20/x2 weapon, it is also the only finessable weapon that can be two handed. That means 1.5x power attack damage. Add the agile property on top of that, and dervish dance cannot compete.
While this is a tangent, I funnily found that the Dawnflower Dervish, the bard archetype that gets Dervish dance as a level 1 bonus feat, would actually be better served picking up a couple of daggers instead since TWF allows it to take advantage of its altered perform abilities (only affects the bard, but they are doubled; that starts out as a +2 to attack and damage, as in comparable to Rage, and ends up +10, making them as strong as a TWF focused fighter in terms of attack and damage rolls)
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Why do people keep bringing up the idea of expanding Dervish Dance to "all finesseable weapons"? SCIMITAR ISN'T A FINESSABLE WEAPON!!! Finessable weapons already have a way to get Dex to Damage... the Agile property. The Weapon Finesse prereq is so you use a "lower-order" weapon and graduate into the Scimitar; ie. use a Kukri until you're ready to take the DD feat, and then pick up your Scimitar. If you want to broaden the feat, allow it to apply to all non-finesseable one-handed Heavy Blades (fighter group) weapons. That will give you Dex to Damage on Katanas, Longswords, etc. which have no other means to get it and sufficiently broadens the feat without making it excessive by expanding it to include axes and things.
Sometimes it's cool to know your fighting style and not be reliant on a magic weapon property that can be shut off, or in a more random loot game, not even drop.
Magic weapons should help you do what you do better, but it's still the character who does it.
Why do people keep bringing up the idea of expanding Dervish Dance to "all finesseable weapons"? SCIMITAR ISN'T A FINESSABLE WEAPON!!! Finessable weapons already have a way to get Dex to Damage... the Agile property. The Weapon Finesse prereq is so you use a "lower-order" weapon and graduate into the Scimitar; ie. use a Kukri until you're ready to take the DD feat, and then pick up your Scimitar. If you want to broaden the feat, allow it to apply to all non-finesseable one-handed Heavy Blades (fighter group) weapons. That will give you Dex to Damage on Katanas, Longswords, etc. which have no other means to get it and sufficiently broadens the feat without making it excessive by expanding it to include axes and things.Sometimes it's cool to know your fighting style and not be reliant on a magic weapon property that can be shut off, or in a more random loot game, not even drop.
Magic weapons should help you do what you do better, but it's still the character who does it.
i agree with this. a fighting style should not be dependent on a specific weapon property that should just be a core low level feat.
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In the Stormbringer game from 1980 all weapons had minimum Str and Dex scores.
Somewhat counter-intuitively, if you lacked the Dex you only did half damage because you couldn't control the weapon sufficiently (so lack of Dex=lack of damage), and if you lacked the Str then you attacked last, because you weren't strong enough to lift the weapon easily (so lack of Str=lack of speed).
Suggesting your dwarf optimize harder isn't a realistic or fair compromise.
What? Why not? I can't even wrap my head around how making everyone play down to the level of the least optimized character could possibly be a good idea.
I don't see much benefit to the whole thing if you can't get attack, damage, and AC onto the same ability score. Normally you have attack and damage on Strength and AC on Dex; now you have attack on Strength, damage and AC on Dex. That's really kind of a lateral move.
Are we perhaps talking about some kind of build that turns Scimitar into a finesse-able weapon? Or does our fighter dump-stat Strength and is simply capable of eating the penalty through other bonuses?
I really don't see the problem... especially with your guy. The only time Dervish Dancing REALLY stands out is with the "Hihg-Dex-Dervish_dancing_-intensified-shocking-grasp-magus-guy" build. But that is more due to the scimitar's high crit range and the magus' lack of defence early game. If you start a game in mid to late level ranges, Magi tend to prefer high str
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Dervish dance is a feat that allows you to be strong at lower levels since it basically gives you the agile weapon property.
But at higher levels, you would find that you are better off with an elven curved blade. Besides the fact that it is a 1d10, 18-20/x2 weapon, it is also the only finessable weapon that can be two handed. That means 1.5x power attack damage. Add the agile property on top of that, and dervish dance cannot compete.
Power attack, yes, but the base modifier doesn't increase for being two-handed.
I use one too. It's quite disappointing.
I really dislike dervish dance builds. It's too cheesy for me.
I can't stand playing agile dependent monks or fighters either. Sure as a dex rogue agile makes sense, but it's not the only way you can do decent damage, you still have sneak attack.
I really dislike dervish dance builds. It's too cheesy for me.
I can't stand playing agile dependent monks or fighters either. Sure as a dex rogue agile makes sense, but it's not the only way you can do decent damage, you still have sneak attack.
Well, while I cannot speak on monks, fighters can take advantage of their weapons training to make up the difference. It is a nice, static bonus to damage, so it is generally nice for using TWF.
There is a similar argument for using TWF/flurry with power attack/piranha strike, although the penalties might be a bit much. A rogue is typically better served not sacrificing bonuses to hit for damage if they can get sneak attack damage. A fighter can absorb enough of the penalties with full BAB+weapon training. Monks? ....you got me there.
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dervish dance is not overpowered- your dwarf did a bad job building a damage dealer and is blaming a feat for it. i won't go into all the reasons, plenty of people have already done that, but i will offer one obvious example: dervish dance limits the user to the same number of attacks as someone using a 2-handed weapon but the scimitar has lower base damage and (with the feat) can't be 2-handed, meaning you miss out the extra 50% a 2hander gets from str and power attack. 2hand fighter always wins... usually by a lot. the feat just makes a different type of fighter viable (not better).
DD fighter
str 13; dex 17+2race+1@4 (20); con 12; int 10; wis 12; cha 10
feats: 1- weapon finesse; F1- WF[scimitar]; F2- dervish dance; 3- power attack; F4- wpn spec[scimitar]; 5- arcane strike
assuming focused gear (and average wealth by level, 10.5k)- mithril breastplate (needed to use full Dex, and avoid being being close to medium encumbrance) [4.2k], +1 scimitar [2.3k], +2 dex belt [4k]
attack- +12 for 1d6+15, avg. 19.5 (pretty respectable); AC 22
2H fighter (use falchion, for equal crit rates)
str 17+2race+1@4 (20); dex 14; con 12; int 10; wis 10; cha 10
feats: 1- toughness; F1- power attack; F2- furious focus; 3- WF[falchion], 4- wpn spec[falchion], 5- arcane strike
gear (same guidlines)- +1 Falchion [2.3k], +2 Breasplate [4.2k], +2 str belt [4k]
attack- +14 for 2d4+20, avg. 25; AC 20
even with the parameters tilted in favor of DD, 2H does about 25% more damage with an extra 10% chance to hit... DD does have +2 AC, and +4 ref save (though that's arguably the least important save), but 2H also has 5 extra HP (which he could drop for +1 AC from dodge, or +2 Ref from Lightning Reflexes). all in all, DD makes for a viable Dex based build, but it's not gonna overtake a traditional build's damage, at all (even a str based sword-and-board fighter that's not 2wpn fighting can match the DD's damage- and saves the 2 feats from finesse/DD to invest in AC).
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In all honesty, I'd have to state that if he's worried that much about damage then he needs to rebuild his character to focus less on combat maneuvers. There are reasons why things are called 'builds', if the guy is spending his feats on Improved Disarm, Greater Disarm, etc. then he's not going to be doing that much in the way of damage. But on the plus side, he's lowering the DPR of an armed opponent by forcing the enemy to spend an action to pick up his weapon (in the case of being disarmed) or draw a new weapon.
Every build is focused on doing something well and by doing one or two things well, you sacrifice other things. For example,
I'm currently playing in a Pathfinder game on Monday nights where I am playing an Elvish Ranger [Str 13, Dex 18](will be taking Wizard later to qualify for Arcane Archer), my character naturally sucks at close combat so he tends to stay away from it.
As for the viability of Dervish Dance, it's usefulness is hindered by the fact that you have to have proficiency as well as Weapon Finesse in order to utilize it. This means that only those characters with Martial Weapon Proficiency can take it as a two feat combo, all the other classes need to take it as a three feat combo.
The feat is also designed to prevent it from being used by TWF Rogue's to make them even more disgusting. 1d10+4 (Dex 18) +Xd6 sneak attack + Weapon Properties per attack if you're flanking or catch your opponent flat footed.
dervish dance is not overpowered- your dwarf did a bad job building a damage dealer and is blaming a feat for it. i won't go into all the reasons, plenty of people have already done that, but i will offer one obvious example: dervish dance limits the user to the same number of attacks as someone using a 2-handed weapon but the scimitar has lower base damage and (with the feat) can't be 2-handed, meaning you miss out the extra 50% a 2hander gets from str and power attack. 2hand fighter always wins... usually by a lot. the feat just makes a different type of fighter viable (not better).
** spoiler omitted **...
Well, there are arguably ways to make a competitive DD build. Or way. Crane style is typically the popular method both due to reducing enemy DPR and getting in an extra attack. You could also theoretically TWF if you used unarmed strikes (+1 agile bodywraps would be needed; most cost efficient way I could find to get it in line with a DEX build without interferring with AC from the near conventional amulet of natural armor).
But as you can see, it gets very feat intensive to compete with two-handed melee characters, who only need a minimum of feats to be effective. And the overall result is kind of cheesy.
dervish dance is not overpowered- your dwarf did a bad job building a damage dealer and is blaming a feat for it. i won't go into all the reasons, plenty of people have already done that, but i will offer one obvious example: dervish dance limits the user to the same number of attacks as someone using a 2-handed weapon but the scimitar has lower base damage and (with the feat) can't be 2-handed, meaning you miss out the extra 50% a 2hander gets from str and power attack. 2hand fighter always wins... usually by a lot. the feat just makes a different type of fighter viable (not better).
** spoiler omitted **...
Well, there are arguably ways to make a competitive DD build. Or way. Crane style is typically the popular method both due to reducing enemy DPR and getting in an extra attack. You could also theoretically TWF if you used unarmed strikes (+1 agile bodywraps would be needed; most cost efficient way I could find to get it in line with a DEX build without interferring with AC from the near conventional amulet of natural armor).
But as you can see, it gets very feat intensive to compete with two-handed melee characters, who only need a minimum of feats to be effective. And the overall result is kind of cheesy.
I was under the impression that cheesy implied broken. In the context your using it, cheesy would mean not as good as the other option.
Is this intentional?
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Letting Dervish Dance apply to all finessable weapons wouldn't be OP, it would just save characters 4300+weapon cost for a +1 agile weapon. You could, if you thought one feat for all finesse weapons was a bit much, let them use a homebrew feat that lets you apply dervish dance to a non-scimitar. Perhaps something like
Prerequisites:Weapons Finesse, Dervish Dance, Proficiency with weapon
Benefit:You may benefit from the Dervish Dance feat with any 1 weapon that you can use the weapons finesse feat with.
Special:This feat may be taken more than once, its effects do not stack; each time it applies to a different weapon.
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The guy who played the dwarf asked how a dex based fighter could be doing that sort of damage, and when I told him about dervish dance he was taken aback. He brought up interesting points that I didn't know how to counter.
1) "I thought the point of a dex based build was that you were supposed to do less damage than a guy with huge muscles and a giant axe"
2) "The entire fear applies only to the scimitar? How do you justify that?"
This whole line of inquiry left me questioning my decision to build (or even allow) a dervish dance character. What do you guys think of dervish dance? Is it fine as it is or do you extend it to all other weapons covered by weapon finesse? Or is it just unfair cheese-sauce you would never allow in your campaign?
I'm in the minority on these boards but I entirely agree with the guy playing the dwarf.
The existence of Dervish Dance is a terrible design decision and I never allow it in my games, neither do any of the other DMs I play with.
- Torger