Creating just two characters for one AP


Advice


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It's my turn to be a player again, and I am hoping for some good advice on creating the characters.

I will be playing alone through an adventure path with two characters, which means that I need to accomplish with two characters what would normally be done with four. I am especially interested in ideas for the second character. The character creation rules follow.

Campaign & character creation rules:

Leniency: The GM is open to making small changes to the AP, but the burden will generally be on my shoulders to design good characters and play smart. When I ran this style of campaign, I minimized the use of save-or-die effects, and allowed the player to add a couple of spells to his class spell list (which were thematically appropriate); few other changes. I will probably receive the same treatment.

Level: Both characters will be two levels higher than a normal character would be. The AP will be started at level 3 for both characters, and it can be expected to end two levels higher.

Class: Core Rulebook classes are allowed. Advanced Player's Guide classes are allowed, except for Summoner.

Ability scores: I have rolled their stats, but they are not with me -- generally, both characters have high ability scores, but no natural 18s.

Hit points: Maximum hit points at first level. Every level after that, if I receive less than half of the die's greatest result, I take half instead. [If a bard rolled a 1, 2, or 3 on his hit points, he would instead take 4, then add his normal bonuses.]

Favored class: Both characters will have two favored classes.

Traits: Characters select two traits, one of which is selected from the AP player's guide.

Wealth: Treasure will be awarded as normal in the AP. Two characters will split the same treasure from the AP rather than four.

Allowed books: Core Rulebook (no Leadership feat), Advanced Player's Guide. The GM may approve certain materials that are in Ultimate Magic or which are Sorceror-specific on a case-by-case basis

I do not want any AP-specific advice (quasi-spoilers), so I am not naming the AP.

First character ideas:

For the first character, I knew that I wanted to take the opportunity to play an enchanter, which is something that usually grates on GMs in a normal game. Usually I prefer wizards, and I always prefer humans; to break the pattern, I am currently thinking of playing a Kitsune Wild-blooded Sorceror (Celestial [Empyreal] and Maestro).

Crunch advantages:
* Maestro looks like a useful bloodline for enchanters, and I like the musical flavor (I have a bad habit of playing bards : P).
* I want a character that can heal (Empyreal grants channeling), but if I can avoid it, I would like to have healing without running a full cleric or oracle.

Development ideas:
* Robes of arcane heritage so I count as a higher-level sorceror for my bloodline powers; periapt of positive channeling to have more-powerful channeling ability
* If allowed, Quicken Channeling
* Possibly Quicken Spell or rod of quicken spell
* Lots of mind-affecting spells (suggestion, dominate, etc.). Some buffing spells to empower the partially-mind controlled team, and then boring ranged damage spells to deal with enemies that are immune to mind-affecting and resistant to normal attacks

Crunch disadvantages:
* I am not crazy about the -2 Will save from wild-blooded. IMO, Will saves are the worst saves as most of them will disable a character -- which is at least half my party. I can accept that though, especially since I become a Wisdom-primary caster.
* I really want both 9th-level bloodline powers -- I have to choose between Channeling from Empyreal, and the Maestro ability that allows me to speak / understand all languages and increases the caster level on my language-dependent spells.
* Kitsune gives +2 Charisma, which is awesome for a sorceror. Unless you switch to Wisdom-casting from Empyreal |:P

Fluff-wise, I am thinking that the character is a descendant of a Vulpinal. She grew up as a Kitsune / Varisian performer, but she has been developing musical and angelic sorcerous powers due to her heritage. I could even take it a step further and say that her ancestor was originally called and bound into service by wizards of Thassilon, and her flourish of magic is due to the weakening of binding spells on her bloodline. I quite like this beginning of a backstory.

* Is there any effect that could change my ability score to Wisdom for the normally-Charisma skills? I want a party face.
* Same question, but Wisdom instead of Charisma for Use Magic Device?
* Alternatively, is there a particularly good class or archetype for a tank-martial combatant that utilizes Charisma, and could be used as the party face and Use Magic Device character?
* Channeling is good -- but it doesn't take care of restoration, heal and breath of life. What might be the best way for my two characters to get access to them without becoming an outright Cleric/Oracle?
* Hypothetically, is there another method to get access to channeling without Empyreal and without taking Cleric/Oracle levels?

For the second character, I am thinking of some kind of high-AC front-line combatant that is capable of dealing decent damage and possibly keeping enemies in one spot. I would prefer not to use a Monk, as I want to be able to use a lot of the equipment that comes my way. I am also not terribly interested in Paladin, as I intend to play these characters with a certain amount of lying and subterfuge (otherwise the AP would be especially difficult to handle).

I look forward to any advice you may have, especially if it can conform to the guidelines of the campaign.


I could take Eldritch Heritage to get one of the lines of powers instead of being a Wild-blooded Sorceror. This would allow me to get the complete set, instead of choosing one 1st, one 3rd, one 9th, etc power from either bloodline.

Really, it might be better worth my time to invest in getting access to tongues and finding a quick +1 DC to spells instead of going to the Eldritch Heritage chain. I'm mostly wanting the 9th-level ability to boost my dominates and the 15th level power is not that great.

If I do get the Maestro bloodline, I will look for something that allows me to eliminate material components with up to X gold cost so I can benefit from the +1 caster level more often.

What might allow me to use mind-effecting spells on creatures normally immune to them, preferably without a lot of extra spell levels? Threnodic Spell is pretty darn expensive at +2.

tl;dr: Choice paralysis.


When dealing with small parties, its usually best to have characters who are very versatile. Neither a straigth sorceror nor a front line fighter are going to be very good at covering all the things that need to be done in an AP on their own. I also VERY STRONGLY recommend one of your characters is a druid with an animal companion. The animal companion will help even out the action economy, which you will suffer from considerably in a 2 character party. Put the animal companion in barding and you have your high ac front liner. The druid can be descent in combat (especially when they get wildshap in 1 level) and have a solid list of support, control, buff and healing spells.

For the other I recommend either a bard, inquisitor, or alchemist. They have lots of skills (to help with the subterfuge and intrigue), and they add some elements of magic that the druid likely wont have. They are also able to contribute in combat.

I personally dont think the sorceror is a good choice for a 2 person party, nor is a wizard. Their skill set while good is just too limited.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

you've got a lot going on here... i don't have time to address everything (or to get into a lot of detail) but here's my initial thoughts (for whatever they're worth):

a paladin has very high survivability (and is your best bet against the save or suck abilities when they come). they bring some healing to the table without being a cleric/oracle, and they're a Cha based martial class (opening up face skills and UMD, if you take the dangerously curious trait). if you're allowed to use unusual races (which i'm guessing you can, since you were thinking kitsune) there is a good aasimar variant for basically any pally build you might want.

bards do bring a ton of flexibility to the table (which is handy in a party of 2). they have some healing, party buffs, good skills (including UMD if you want), some utility magic, and there's probably an archetype available to you that grants trapfinding. if you don't want to play another bard, an enchanter isn't a terrible idea (stopping things from fighting you, or making them fight for you, is a great way to make up for having less PCs). If you pair him with a pally you don't need to worry about trying to heal, so you can focus on just making a great enchanter without fooling around with crossblooded/wrong stat casting.

a druid would also be a decent option- some healing, some damage spells, and animal companion to help shore up your numbers (plus the summon nature's ally spells); get extra survivability from wildshape. a wizard or cleric summoner would also be helpful (to bring out summoned creatures to fill out your ranks). cleric is actually better for this (if these things are in the right books... unfortunately, i don't have time to check)- sacred summoning lets summon as a standard action instead of full round; and the evangelist archetype lets you apply a bard-like buff to your pally (or other melee friend) plus all your summoned creatures, and if you took quick channel (a feat available at 5th) you could maintain the buff for free, heal everyone with a move action, use your standard action to cast a buff/heal/summons, and still have a swift action if you need it (take a longspear or worship a god that favors a reach weapon and you'll get to add periodic AoOs to all that).

hope something in there helps :)


Inquisitor could handle all things you mentioned. With Feather subdomain (or animal domain) could also help action economy (since you'll be playing 2 levels higher, the companion enters soon).

I would still forget channeling for the sorc & use him as party face & UMD guy. That said the combos that are somewhat in line what you've wanted that would work very well in my mind are:

Sorc & Druid
Sorc & Inquisitor
Bard & Druid


With the enchanter, the idea is to try keeping at least one NPC enchanted and fighting with my group at all times.

Playing a bard is a semi-attractive idea. I love Knowledge skills, and I try to keep many of them very high. Even beyond the monster-killin' knowledges, I would like to keep a decent History to wring extra backstory out of analyzing dungeons. If I didn't think I could potentially play any AP, I would already have read them for the campaign setting lore.

Another aspect is the DCs; for an enchanter I want good DCs, and being limited to 6th level spells seems like it's going to hurt me as the game progresses. Of course, the bard's class spell list is much more narrow.

However, I just~ got done playing two similar bards across an edition change, and I recently played a Druid, so part of my hesitance is about playing the same classes again.

Granted, he never enchanted anything, and the Druid never used Wild Shape. Maybe I just need to find new ways to play them that cover the roles.

Liberty's Edge

My basic answer was Summoner+Bard for the synergy between having many allies and boosting your allies.

Since Summoner is not available, the next best bet is a Druid with Animal Companion and focused on summoning feats (Augment Summoning and the Xlight Summons feats in Ultimate Magic).

For healing, you should not need a Cleric/Oracle if both of your classes can cast Cure Light Wounds.

So Druid + Bard (or Bard/Cavalier-Order of the Dragon for more allies-boosting). If you go Bard, a 1-level dip in Sorcerer with the appropriate bloodlines could greatly enhance your mind-affecting spells.


I do like some of the Paladin mechanics, but that code of conduct is just killing me. I will have to navigate this campaign very carefully with just two characters, and I don't know if I can justify adventuring with a paladin that allows lying, theft, ambushes and mind-controlling.

The last Cavalier I had inspiration for was an Order of the Cockatrice. I wanted him to be an ex-Razmiran 'priest' that decided to adventure on his own and pretend to be a newly-awakened Paladin of Aroden, performing miracles and beating his own drum for his own fame and profit. As a plus, backstory comes with built-in villains.

If I do run a Bard or Cavalier though, I really do have to keep a sizable cadre of minions around. +2 buffs to this-and-that is worth far less on two characters than it is on four. And unfortunately, at this point I just am not thinking of anything that is making playing a Druid sound interesting.

I don't know much about inquisitor. I remember reading them and thinking 'these are like divine bards' but I'll see if they can fit any kind of combination I am considering.


Troubleshooter wrote:

With the enchanter, the idea is to try keeping at least one NPC enchanted and fighting with my group at all times.

You are going to have a heck of a time making that work in pathfinder, I mean maybe when you are very high level, but charm person isnt going to make someone face death with you, it will just make them like you. Its unfortunate, but an enchanter is a really bad choice for this kind of campaign.

Quote:

Playing a bard is a semi-attractive idea. I love Knowledge skills, and I try to keep many of them very high. Even beyond the monster-killin' knowledges, I would like to keep a decent History to wring extra backstory out of analyzing dungeons. If I didn't think I could potentially play any AP, I would already have read them for the campaign setting lore.

Another aspect is the DCs; for an enchanter I want good DCs, and being limited to 6th level spells seems like it's going to hurt me as the game progresses. Of course, the bard's class spell list is much more narrow.

Again focusing on enchanting isnt a good idea. I mean as you get to higher levels it isnt really going to matter what your dcs are because most things you face will either be highly resistant or completely immune to your magic. At least the bard will still have a few options lying around if you want to enchant a random npc, but for important characters (read cr appropriate) you would struggle to have a good chance of success with any character, the bard wont make it easier, but it doesnt make it dramatically harder. Also dont forget most aps end around level 14, so having only up to 6th level spells wont be a huge difference.

Quote:

However, I just~ got done playing two similar bards across an edition change, and I recently played a Druid, so part of my hesitance is about playing the same classes again.

Granted, he never enchanted anything, and the Druid never used Wild Shape. Maybe I just need to find new ways to play them that cover the roles.

Unfortunately with the limitations you have concept has to take a back seat to the practical ability to complete the adventure path. Unless your dm is going to make some really significant allowances, an enchanter and a big dumb fighter wont cut it. You need 2 versatile characters, and you would significantly benefit from having a pet in hand. Its unfortunate that the summoner isnt allowed, because a small game is one of the few times I think the eidolon is appropriate.

You could maybe take the inquisitor with the animal domain. At 4th level you'd get an animal companion, and at 5th you could take the boon companion feat (if allowed) to bring it up to par. It would suite the social concept you are thinking of better then a druid. Inquisitors though wisdom based make very good faces with stern gaze and discern lies.


Troubleshooter wrote:
* Is there any effect that could change my ability score to Wisdom for the normally-Charisma skills? I want a party face.

Heresy Inquisition lets you use WIS instead of CHA for Bluff and Intimidate. @ 4th level you get to roll twice and keep the best result.

Conversion Inquisition lets you use WIS for Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy....but the additional power isn't my favorite.

Inquisitors are great for the type of versatility youre talking about but only get 1 domain/inquisition so youd have to choose one of these over feather or travel or the other great choices out there.


You probably need either a cleric or a druid that has been given the removes and restores on list. Lots of APs tend to have encounters that assume one or more of those. You really don't want to be running into mummies without remove curse and disease or spectres without restoration or people who cast blindness/deafness without remove blindness/deafness.

Inquisitors and oracles have the disadvantage of being spontaneous, which means they won't know all the boring safety net spells even though they have all but remove blindness/deafness or all of them on list. You need to use a prepared caster with open slots when you don't know what's coming ahead of time.

Witches are out because they're too squishy to protect in a two person party.

I'd look at a bard combined with a cleric using Sacred Summons if you can. The feat's in UM unfortunately, but it gets you some standard action summons. I think the Archons are the best set until high levels and even then 1d4+1 lantern archons with backing vocals make a pretty good blast. Each will do 4d6+12 per round with a +6 ranged touch at level 11 with discordant voice, which isn't terrible compared to an unbuffed wizard making a ranged touch attack and just 2 will blow away the damage cap for single target damage at that level. And then if not killed they'll do it again the next round. They'll also benefit from any group buffs cast after they're summoned.


Thank you for the advice. I have mostly created my party and run through the first session, though I have a few last choices to make before they are really complete.

I have decided to make the Kitsune a simple Bard. This will give me lots of buffs for if/when I get a party of minions, and I will have access to some summoning if I do have a problem with dominates and whatnot. A strong motivator is also the skills -- Bardic Knowledge will be a big help, and being able to put points in Perform to get a bunch of 2-for-1 advantages will also be very handy. Plus my high stat will be Charisma so I can still have a party face.

I think I can still justify the angelic ancestry just fine with this as well.

Sadly I will not get channeling, but at least I have cures on my lists. Frankly, I could see that getting channeling was going to be very expensive -- either the channeling would have been at -4, and I would not have gotten the 9th level Maestro power, and it would have switched my casting stat away from Charisma, and I would have -2 on Will saves; or it would have eaten several feats, I would not have gotten it until level 15, and it would have been as a cleric 6 levels lower. Neither were good options.

I still was not interested in a Druid, so for the second character I have picked a Cavalier. The GM warned me that this campaign may involve cramped spaces, so I have opted for a variant with an animal companion instead of a mount -- given that we do not have access to whichever book the appropriate archetype is in, for the time being he is just removing the 'while mounted' restriction from my class abilities. This character also has Use Magic Device and has a wand of cure light wounds for emergencies, so both characters have healing, although it will be unreliable for a while.

Surprisingly, the Cavalier ended up being more fun after seeing the play and RP. Odd, since I had such a clearer picture of the Kitsune.


Necroing for mine own nefarious ends! I thought about rolling dwarf cavalier with camel paired with a half elf bard. Would that be good for Mummies Mask? I also will be alone and playing two characters.

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