Greetings to one and all; I would appreciate some opinions.
I have been playing Pen & Paper RPGs on and off since 1997 when I was in high school. Since that period of time, I would consider myself to have belonged to about six different groups of players, each with their own ideologies and concepts as to how the game should be played. I've GM'd for all of these groups; some groups exclusively, other groups as a guest GM.
About a year ago I started a small group of players who wanted to start playing, and I've been GMing for them. It is a group of two; one of them is my stepdaughter, another is a family friend my age. Both of them were very excited to start playing, and to this day are still very ecstatic and grateful when game day comes around.
I suppose I should give some background info on our group:
Our group consists of two PCs and 1 NPC (to help round out the group.)
- Originally our group consisted of a Gunslinger (PC), a Rogue (PC), and a Witch (NPC.) Since then, the Rogue has died and that player has made a new Sorcerer. We are playing a Paizo AP; RotRL AE to be be exact.
Unfortunately, I'm having a bit of a problem with this group. After a year of playing (unfortunately, not as frequent as I would like, I would guess 30 sessions) I don't feel like they have increased their skill as players as much as I would have liked them to. They keep making mistakes; I suppose part of the problem is that the answers are always obvious to those who know the answers, and that it is hard to fathom how other individuals cannot overcome the obstacle at hand.
It just seems like they are always forgetting things, or they make bad decisions. Granted, one of the players is 11 years old, but she's a smart 11, and I'd hope she would be able to develop her logical thinking. Some examples:
-Her rogue died because she wasn't able to learn not to stand up in front of a threatening enemy after multiple previous lessons of doing that and getting knocked down again. The one time she tried that against a boss villain, she didn't survive.
-The gunslinger consistently forgets he has deadly aim and can effectively double his damage.
-They have a tendency to not loot defeated enemies, leaving them undergeared.
-They have a tendency to not search rooms, leaving them undergeared and lacking direction by not finding clues.
-The group recently found a spellbook in a dungeon; our two casters are not spellbook users. The first thought the gunslinger had was "maybe I should multiclass so I can take advantage of that spellbook; do some utility casting." The group has two casters out of three characters; the last thing they need is to decrease their martial progression.
I've been considering all the possibilities as to *why* this is a problem in the first place. Am I the only one having a problem with this? Am I expecting too much? I understand that some of these things (looting bodies, rooms, etc.) are old-school gaming conventions that have been around for 30 years, but maybe they're not so obvious to new players.
I suppose this leads to the thread title: how much do I handhold my players? There were two reasons I created an NPC that follows the group around; one was to fill in some missing gaps, the other was to help keep the PCs on track if they start wandering too far off. That being said, I don't want my NPC to be doing all the footwork, looting bodies, searching rooms, getting all the clues, following up all the leads. At that point, the other players are just watching me play with myself. GMbating, if you will.
There are a few answers and arguments to this question that I can already predict:
-One answer is to go with the old-school mentality, and let the chips fall as they may. Nature is a fair but cruel teacher. If you don't beware the wildlife, it will bite you in the ass every time. Life sucks, get a helmet. Players will eventually learn from the school of hard knocks. I'm not too fond of this answer; my players are very grateful when they receive opportunities to roleplay and they love speaking to townsfolk and villains alike. I feel that they would get discouraged if they regularly lost their characters that they put a lot of personality into.
-Another answer is the polar opposite; let your players play how they want to play and adjust the game accordingly; don't go telling them how to have fun or that their brand of fun is wrong. I'm not too fond of this answer either. Don't get me wrong; the last thing I want to do is tell someone how they should play; and if they're having fun, good job, that's what games are for. However, how far do you go with that? As an extreme example, if you were GMing a group of players and all the PCs were pants-on-head dumb as posts, would you just keep sending them against mobs of one-legged retarded goblins? Would you be happy doing that? Or would you hope they eventually clue in and develop their tactics and move on to more satisfying opponents and scenarios?
-Do I need to sit down and write out a "Pathfinder for Dummies" cheat sheet for each character? Something that lists things like Don't forget to search rooms/bodies for clues, you are a [insert class here,] here's what you are good at, here's what people *expect you to bring to the party*, don't forget to take important notes, don't forget to study your inventory/notes/spells/class abilities at the start of a gaming session? Would a list like that be to patronizing?
Am I being a big jerk?
P.S. my goal is to help these players better themselves as players. I feel like if they were to go and play PFS or with a different gaming group, they wouldn't be ready for the rigors of what their expectations would be, and would end up jeopardizing other PCs at the same table. I realize that gaming in a bubble caused by a small group doesn't help much, but it's the best we can do at the moment.
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You've mentioned a whole bunch of issues just in your post alone, and it sounds like there's more. All of these have to be addressed, individually.
The short answer of "how much handholding should I do?" is "just enough". It's subjective.
It does sound like your GMing style might be a little misleading.
If they're about to leave a room without searching it, do you remind them? Same if they're about to leave ignored bodies.
If they're about to attract attacks of opportunity, do you point it out?
The math on weapon bonuses (even with feats) can be a lot to remember for new (and semi-new) players - is it noticable on the sheet right next to their normal attack rolls?
The spellbook example isn't an easy fix. Gunslingers hit touch AC anyway, many of them multiclass at level 5. Do they have somewhere to sell it? Should they sell it? What else can they do with it? Have you offered up ideas for what their characters might know what to do with it?
What's the personality of the NPC? If they're a run-of-the-mill person who just gives answers away, that's probably a wasted opportunity. Give them some personality and some charm, someone who never has all the answers, but is handy for getting out of a bind.
I tend to send along an unseen, undetectable level 20 something ally who revives characters after they die for the first level of a campaign.
An alternative to this is a teleporting intelligent item that never makes itself known as a magical item, and can revive PCs who die in battle. If a TPW happens then the magic item can teleport all the corpses to a safe place--Their last "Bondfire", eh? eh? How Dark Souls-esque!--and then cast raise dead. Since they are level 1 they take a drain to constitution score but this usually means they play more intelligently as a result. If the entire party Perma-dies then everyone re-rolls for round 2.
Also, try to go by a "point" system. Each encounter should be worth X amount of gold, so, if the PCs do not loot the gear to sale then that should just be added to their reward bonus. They think they did so well that the NPC is giving them all extra money, but in reality is the DM ensuring that they are not under-geared for the next level.
If important items are not looted then they, by DM fiat, teleport to a set location that the PCs will move into. Perhaps a monster is talking and boasting loudly about the key he found.
Part of DMing for me is ensuring that my players are not back-tracking through the dungeon for no good reason.
Remember, dear DM, it is partially the players responsibility to pick of gear, sell it for money, and so forth, but if they do not do this then it is your responsibility to ensure that they get said money.
I would suggest helping them get all their numbers straight and put their conditional modifiers in parentheses. That way maybe the Gunslinger will look down and say "wait I can get an extra +4 damage!"
As far as your other issues, I would go the gentle reminder route:
"That dead guy looks like he has a lot of shiny stuff"
"This room has a lot of stuff in it, some of it could be useful maybe"
"Do you really want to do that? Remember what happened last time"
Thanks for the responses.
To address them...
I suppose I need to reevaluate and readjust how many little hints and gentle reminders I need to give. Maybe that number is currently higher than I wish it to be, and I just need to get over it.
I feel that ownership gives more value to rewards earned, and that the converse is also true. I'd like to believe that if *they* figure these things out on their own, they will achieve a greater sense of accomplishment than if I lead them the entire time. That being said, it's possible that they are not yet ready for that glorious day when the proverbial training wheels come off their proverbial bikes and all parties involved feel that great sense of accomplishment that comes when someone achieves that next level of development.
Avatar: I suppose the thing about the gunslinger wanting to multiclass that rubs me the wrong way is that when the party is small, it's important to recognize and identify the missing components, and compensate as best as possible. Utility casting isn't a missing component. If anything, the casters need to be able to count on someone to maintain the highest BAB and HP pool, not deviate from that. I realize that this could be 100% my perspective and completely wrong.
My NPC is very fleshed out, with a personality just as fleshed out as the PCs. Being a support caster is beneficial as it lets them sit in the back row and make less decisions. I don't want this NPC leading the party around by the nose. I want the PCs to have to disable doors/traps, decide which rooms to enter, and who lives and dies. If I had to the play a rogue, for example, they'd be sitting there watching me roll for all the perceptions, roll all the disables, open all the doors, disarm all the traps (that I know are there because I'm running the show,) and at that point I'm just DMbating with an audience.
Taku: As far as rolling reward values forward, I have done that, and will continue to do so; I just don't believe that helps people to learn to look for things. If anything, it does the opposite, and reinforces that if they don't actively do something, it's ok because they will get the results handed to them on silver platters.
Chaos Effect: I have put some modifiers (in parentheses) straight onto their character sheets' attack blocks; notably, those that are "always on," such as Point Blank Range. Maybe they need something like a post-it note flag beside the attack block that says "Deadly Aim" or something. I actually built a really nice checklist for the sorcerer with check-off boxes to track spells/day, and used Perram's spell list so that info is at her fingertips. It works well.
An idea I had: is it possible it's a generation gap? Is it possible that many games nowadays have more handholding? Take Metroid for example. The original Metroid was hard if you didn't manually map out where all the powerups were, because a large part of the game mechanic was having to do a lot of backtracking. Metroid Prime, on the other hand, has the built in map which makes things leaps and bounds easier. Also, it seems lots of games have automatic health regeneration as opposed to having to find health pick-ups and having to come up with health conservation solutions.
An idea I had: is it possible it's a generation gap? Is it possible that many games nowadays have more handholding? Take Metroid for example. The original Metroid was hard if you didn't manually map out where all the powerups were, because a large part of the game mechanic was having to do a lot of backtracking. Metroid Prime, on the other hand, has the built in map which makes things leaps and bounds easier. Also, it seems lots of games have automatic health regeneration as opposed to having to find health pick-ups and having to come up with health conservation solutions.
As a part of the younger generation, I'd agree with you on this point. Developers seem to mistake "immersion" for "lacking critical thinking" when pumping out games--hell, some of the most popular ones are glorified murder simulators. The same goes with most fantasy games: at the end of the day, be it Elder Scrolls, Dragon's Dogma, or any other title you could name off the top of you head, the player gets railroaded. So when we sit in at a game of Pathfinder, we expect to be able to shut the old cranium down instead of kicking it into high gear, where it should rightfully be--we expect the DM/GM to throw us some bones and let us know where to go or how to get there. Because at the end of the day, it's all fun and games. It really shouldn't be the prevailing mentality, but sadly it is.
As to how to fix it... well, I don't quite know being part of the problem. The few times our DM plopped us down in a campaign with no more knowledge than current events and our location, one person would always step up and just lead the rest by the nose, often into boredom or a TPK. Maybe that's what they need--to realize that esprit alone gets people killed? Postmortum, you could offer to rerun the encounter (with a few new tricks if need be) if their failure was due to lack of thought rather than bad luck.
TempusAvatar, what is more important to your story telling style:
The players progress through your story with the boring crap cut out
or
The players progressing at a snail's pace because they want to check every pocket, do a cavity search on corpses, search every square inch of walls for secret doors, and constantly demand specific details about every room they enter so they can ask about everything in the room down to what the draperies are made of?
Try to find some sort of way to ease them into searching for things. Perhaps the key to the object is on a corpse right next to the object, and once the players are consistently searching all the corpses next to objects push the key back a room, then two, then three, then randomize it.
Remember: players are stupid unless they are DMs themselves. Readers of novels are stupid unless they write novels. You cannot depend on the players to pick up the nuance until you have trained them to pick up the nuance.
Think about your dungeons like big tutorials where you are trying to teach your players something. Design dungeons to teach them something and each new dungeon teach them a new skill. Looting bodies is something that they should need to do to progress, but after they are trained to loot bodies push it up to they are being threatened while looting bodies. Get creative. Sometimes the only thing you need is a trap room that is full of resetting traps that attack each round and a few corpses on the ground.
If the rogue is getting killed because she likes to stand up to big-bad why not make the encounters bigger or build encounters to be a number of monsters per player as opposed to a big CR monster?
Teach them enwisened sage.
There is definitely a generation gap. Most CRPGs do away with body-looting as much as possible because "who wants to click on corpses over and over?" It's just assumed you search the bodies and take the goodies. I turn on "auto-looting" on every game that lets me. Likewise, when a room has a clue, it's generally right in the middle with a big yellow exclamation point over it (or it's outlined in red). In CRPGs, once the fight is over the only thing you need to do is find the next room.
You are throwing the Grand-daddy of RPGs at people that haven't even been exposed to it's grandchild's pet. I really don't blame them for not getting it. There's a reason WOTC went for video-gamey.
My advice would be to let the NPC be the looter/searcher while the players be Archer (cartoon) or Zap Branigann. They charge ahead and she sighs and searches the bodies. It's just that for such a smart gal, she really needs help figuring things out. "Hey Guys! I just found this ring on the body. It doesn't look like something Ogres would make. What do you think?" or "Hey Guys! Look at this pile of papers over here. Do you suppose they may say something about where the captive is being held?" If she has to do all the searching, let it take her a while. If the players say anything, she can snap, "If you want it to go faster, you could help. I'm not your maid."
Another way to train them would be to do a couple sessions of a simple hack-and-slash with the simplest system you can find. Something where all you do is check the door for traps, kick it open, kill the improbable beasties inside, loot the bodies, deal with whatever fountain/altar/magical 'thingy' is in the room, search for secret doors, and move on. Essentially the 1st edition games I played with my friends 30 years ago. Let's face it: That's where we learned the basics of surviving in a dungeon. Paranoia training 101.
Tell them you just want to do a few sessions of this for nostalgia or to test out the system. Then go back to Pathfinder.
Last thought: Try putting special abilities/attacks/spells on cards. It might make it easier for the players to keep track of.
My advice would be to let the NPC be the looter/searcher while the players be Archer (cartoon) or Zap Branigann.
Charging ahead while the drones clean up? That's classic him.
Regarding the players forgetting their class abilities/feats/powers, I think it would not be out of character for your witch to actually point out to them (character to character, no need to talk about this out of role) that he/she has seen them use more advanced tactics and impressive moves. This also applies to the rogue/sorceror death wish moves. Maybe have the witch act as a fatherlike figure that push positive feedback on their good moves and point out some flaws in their decision. Don't over do it though, as you mentioned, it can become a you and yourself game.
As for the loot, I think you nailed it in the sense that looting everything that isn't bolted and nailed to the ground/walls (and then get the crowbar for the second loot run) is very highschool legacy mentality. Sadly, APs are written in such a way that it takes that into account to evaluate the wealth of the PCs.
An alternative to that is really to concentrate the loot. Forget about every bit of treasures here and there, concentrate on chests or loot cache that actually already exist in the AP and boost them according to what wealth the PCs are expected to have. They start looting a lot more ? just scale back future chests, etc. I doubt they would ignore chests and magical weapons glowing on a weapon rack like their "forget" to loot corpses.
Actually, there was someone mentioning a dungeon made specifically to train these types of things, going for one level per floor.
http://zenithgames.blogspot.ca/2013/08/jacobs-tower-level-1.html
Haven't played it, but the creator seemed to want to create a tutorial dungeon.
Might be worth it encouraging them to play several smaller, one night games. Let them try the various classes a bit.
But in the end, you're going to have to let them fail. Sometimes, they may exit a dungeon without getting to the end (because they couldnt open a door), or they wont solve a mystery because they werent inquisitive enough. At the moment, they seem to be play-acting rather than roleplaying. They give their characters emotional charge, but dont see them as real, so they arent careful with them. They need to realise that the character is a living breathing thing, not just a puppet to their whims.
my first suggestion is to avoid things that play like save points (e.g. unseen high level npcs or items that will revive people or parties). not only does it make things less believable but it removes any sense of threat or tension and destroys the necessity of thinking or using tactics- lets just charge it, we're gonna wake up back at camp if we die anyway...
i've also been playing and running since the early 90s, and with players ranging the whole spectrum of experience. Monday I ran my second session with a group that has one player with some 3.5 experience, one who played neverwinter nights (on the PC) and 2 with no rpg experience at all. I think the answer to your question really is "it depends..."
are they not looting the bodies because they don't think of it, or because it seems wrong to them? if the latter, rather than asking them to play less moral characters (or, at least, characters with a morality significantly different than their own) consider modifying the adventures so that some person/people periodically reward them for the things they're doing by giving them items they might have found searching corpses. if they're just not thinking of it, you could try having the witch say something like "hey that guy's [insert item here] is clearly magical, do you think we should take it so that we can use it?" or, just have the witch grab something really useful off some body and start using it- when the other PCs ask where/how you got it just say "oh, i took it off the dead thing. we keep leaving behind all kinds of valuable magic items and i don't want to end up dead like [rogue's name]."
in terms of tactics and remembering bonuses and options... that's probably the trickiest part- and the one that requires the most experience to get down. for remembering bonuses- one trick is to periodically ask "are you gonna use deadly aim on that?" eventually he'll remember its an option. and have them use a die counter or some scrap paper to keep track of temporary bonuses from buffs/flanking/whatever. tactics just requires trial and error, some guidance, and enough repetition to remember... you can have the witch (who's Int based after all) shout out some suggestions (or reminders of what happened last time you tried it that way), and it might help to take a few minutes after some sessions to talk about how combat went and how it could be improved. this is also why i think its important to not give rez-stones or whatever... the threat of losing a character you like and have invested in is a strong motivator for learning to play your character better (and the same one that would drive the character him/herself to went to be as effective in combat as possible).
Actually, there was someone mentioning a dungeon made specifically to train these types of things, going for one level per floor.
i just ran a game like that for a group of experienced players who are generally garbage when it comes to tactics... unfortunately, it did not have the effect i'd hoped- it mostly involved a lot of complaining about how certain challenges were completely unreasonable and very little thinking about how to solve them... eventually they made their way through by the application of enough force (like using a sledgehammer to drive a square peg through a round hole) YMMV
The forgetting the bonuses thing is best handled by having it written out on the character sheet. Which he might not think of himself.
Especially for someone that isn't great at math on the fly I will have things like.
Long bow standard attack with normal arrow: +8, dam 1-8+3 /x3
Long bow standard attack with goblin ice arrow: +9, dam 1-8+3+(1d6+1cold) /x3(cold damage not multiplied)
Long bow full attack with normal arrow: +8/+3, dam 1-8+3 /x3
Long bow rapid shot ...
So it is completely spelled out.
The sheet takes a bit longer, but it is worth it.
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For the rest, I actually think it might be a good idea to have them play with others to get some other ideas and observations. PFS games would be ideal for this.
I am pretty sure that is what I have seen at our local PFS. There is a woman that usually brings her daughter (I think she's about 12-14). They play about once every 4-6 weeks. Their PC's aren't progressing that much. But I think they mostly do it to see how others play the game and take those ideas back to the girl's home game.
Early level PFS scenarios are usually not so tough that a newbie will get everyone killed. Plus if a new player starts to do something really dumb, the others will speak up.
You can be a player with them, so they can see how you play the game, the things you think of, and what you try.
It simple...
When the step child was learning to walk did you holder hand at every step?
If she fell, did you rush in to check on her or did you wait to see what she did on her own?
If yes then keep doing it becase she dose not know any other way.
If no then let her take her time an learn no matter how painful it is for you to watch.
Bottom line is she having fun? If yes then nothing is wrong and play you game.
Another look would be you have played 30 games in a year wich mean about once evey 14 day. If the skill are not drill in more offen then the advancement will be slow.
My wife has played for about 25 years about once 1 week for 4-5 hour and still forget some rules.
I one the have played for about 30 years about once a week for 4-5 hours. Also for about 12 years I played 15-20 hours a week.
Do I know the rule better? Yes.
Dose she have fun playing and failing? Yes.
Dose it drive me crazy? Hell yes.
Will I deny any or all of this if my wife reads this? Hell yes
Actually, there was someone mentioning a dungeon made specifically to train these types of things, going for one level per floor.i just ran a game like that for a group of experienced players who are generally garbage when it comes to tactics... unfortunately, it did not have the effect i'd hoped- it mostly involved a lot of complaining about how certain challenges were completely unreasonable and very little thinking about how to solve them... eventually they made their way through by the application of enough force (like using a sledgehammer to drive a square peg through a round hole) YMMV
Dear me... I dont think I could stand a group like that. I would go nuts. I rather prefer it when people are clever. If I wanted to blast blindly ahead, I'd play a video game (which I do often enough).
me and one other player are trying a different approach now (in a new campaign where i'm playing instead of running)- he's in a butterfly sting build, i'm a hulk with a tetsubo, and we're taking some teamwork feats... we're hoping that demonstrating how effective tactics and cooperation can be will inspire them to try it. but that's off topic- sorry, OP
Thanks to all who provided their valuable perspectives. I think that's what I really needed; it's difficult to gauge performance of anything when you are unsure of the benchmarks.
I think this is the first group I've played where I need to train all the players at the table. It is definitely more challenging than having an experienced group with one newbie; the newbie can easily take a step back if needed and follow the actions of the old guard.
A few general statements/replies/agreements:
- I absolutely 100% agree that it is incorrect to tell people how they should have fun playing the game. Hence my problems; if I didn't have a problem with that, I wouldn't be here asking for perspective; I'd be yelling at my players (and being a big jackhole.) If the players are having fun, don't stop them.
I just thought of a good analogy. What would you do if you saw someone eating with the wrong end of a fork, yet having a reasonably acceptable time of it? Would you let them continue as-is, seeing as there's nothing inherently wrong with it and they seem to be fine; or would you politely inform them that their dining experience could be slightly elevated with some minor adjustments?
- I absolutely 100% agree that the use of game aids are helpful for everyone, and I employ such devices whenever I can. Cheat sheets, post-it notes, the condition deck, whatever gets the information across efficiently. Heck, even I use such devices when I play with my regular group, and we're all old hat.
I think I'm going to take a twofold approach to things: first, I'm going to talk to my PCs (ALWAYS the smart thing to do first!) and see if we can come up with some more player aids to address any mechanical issues (like forgetting feats, etc.) Second, I'm going to talk to them and see if they would like the NPC to be more invasive when it comes to reminding about things they can/should do.
Also, I'm going to make sure they ask more questions. There have been times they have done nothing because they thought there was nothing to do. I'm happy to provide suggestions, but they need to ask for them first or I don't know they need them. I'd rather they ask, "what can I do in this room?" rather than not think of anything and say, "I do nothing in this room."
On a side note, I must be doing something right, because I always ask for feedback after every gaming session, and I always get positive and enthusiastic responses, and they always look forward to next week.
Again, thanks.
Something that's not actually mentioned it how long your sessions are, you've mentioned 30 sessions a year but if they're only 1 hour long or something and 5 hours in one week or something oddly balanced then it'd be easy to forget things.
Additionally no mention as to how old the gunslinger is?
Also there are some people out there, who in their personality don't do something or don't really learn until their been *told*. Maybe there's even a possibility the players think that they aren't allowed to do certain activities until you mention it.
If you players are failing, then they need either more options or a kick up the backside in the right direction.
Something I noticed about my GM is he doesn't even wait for us to ask about looting, he just tells us what we find in each room. Mind you our group is very gold hungry and instantly jump at the chance for loot every time but honestly in a real life situation, you would assume on entering a vault full of gold, an adventurer would automatically try and loot everything.
With the spells/abilities and such it might be that you need to use the "power cards" where their abilities are written in basics on each card they they activate each card. Visually it's exciting and adds a far more tangible method of playing beyond reading numbers.
At the end of the day, as the GM you have to react and adapt to your players needs. If they're not learning then the teaching style/approach isn't working.