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I don't really know why I am posing this, but I was wondering is anyone other then me gets tired of GMing a party of chaotic characters, or even playing with a character in a party of chaotic characters.
I was playing in a game with a bit of a pirate/swashbuckling theme, and the party was primarily chaotic. It really burnt me out playing in that game. People all really wanted to do separate things, and really there seemed to be no real party cohesion. It did not help that the GM's story was a little weak, and really had too many subplots distracting from the main story.
The thing is as a GM too, I hate chaotic characters. People seem to use the alignment to justify screwing around. And it's not even things that are interesting, sometimes it is just a deliberate attempt to throw a monkey wrench into things. I don't know why people play like this. It's like they like poking the other players trying to get a rise out them, but I can tell that if they are, they are doing it subconsciously. I think that it might just be a bad habit that they developed.
Maybe it is just the people I played with.
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I attribute this to the advent of sitcoms. People lock into relating with others as witty one liners and puns, all while doing erratic and whacky hijinks. Its all humans understand in the last few generations. I've dealt with this too, where everyone just wants to shine with their one-shot-joke for the night. They don't have the interest or the cohesive attention spans to focus on thought-out personal role play.
And I don't know how to solve it either. Looking back, I've never finished a campaign of any significant note, as a gm or player because of this very thing. Everyone starts out as the snarky <class> and it goes downhill, with everyone fighting each other and trying to throw monkey wrenches in the gameplay, until some sort of meltdown happens and it's back to rolling up new characters.
Worse, nowdays when 50% of the people I play with are all tied up doing their own real life events, it falls to once every few months a game night occurs.
I have taken to asking my friends straight out if they think I'm gay, or they're hoping that I'm gay. (that's their go-to joke bag for my characters/me) whenever they start in. Trying to point out that they're taking shots or hamming it up for no reason other than to distract everyone seems to settle them down, even if they don't stop entirely.
I never have problems with chaotic characters at my table in games that I run or am a part of. I wouldn't say it's a problem with the alignment that you have, but the interpretations of your fellow gamers at your table that you are having a problem with.
My advice is to open up a dialogue of communication with your table, come up with some guidelines for the alignments that everyone is comfortable with and then play and have fun.
Maybe it is just the people I played with.
I'd say its more this than anything from your complaints. A bunch of chaotic people can band together to get things done, and a bunch of lawful people can disagree and still go on their own side quest. Party cohesion is a lot about who you play with and how they handle things. Similarly, someone who just wants to 'screw around' could be any alignment, and you really should just talk to them about settling down and what things you can and can't do if you want to stay in the party rather than blaming the alignment system as a whole.
My advice is to open up a dialogue of communication with your table, come up with some guidelines for the alignments that everyone is comfortable with and then play and have fun.
Communication! Its important and solves many problems. Rather than guidelines for alignment, an alternative would be to talk about how to handle things at the table or even what is allowed(though that can be taken as heavy handed). I play without alignment, but I try and keep communication up and I do have a few things that I don't want at the table like PvP.
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I attribute this to the advent of sitcoms. People lock into relating with others as witty one liners and puns, all while doing erratic and whacky hijinks. Its all humans understand in the last few generations. I've dealt with this too, where everyone just wants to shine with their one-shot-joke for the night. They don't have the interest or the cohesive attention spans to focus on thought-out personal role play.
People who play tabletop roleplaying games were so much better back in the day before sitcoms. You know, like in 1940. When D&D was all the rage. *rolls eyes*
I never have problems with chaotic characters at my table in games that I run or am a part of. I wouldn't say it's a problem with the alignment that you have, but the interpretations of your fellow gamers at your table that you are having a problem with.
This. It's possible to play a chaotic character in a way besides lolrandom or screw-with-everything. Thinking this is the extent of chaotic characters is as silly as thinking all paladins must be lawful stupid zealots.
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Adventuring is a lot less fun when the red dragon can defeat you by posting a copy of the deed and a no trespassing sign outside their lair.
I attribute this to the advent of sitcoms. People lock into relating with others as witty one liners and puns, all while doing erratic and whacky hijinks. Its all humans understand in the last few generations. I've dealt with this too, where everyone just wants to shine with their one-shot-joke for the night. They don't have the interest or the cohesive attention spans to focus on thought-out personal role play.
And I don't know how to solve it either. Looking back, I've never finished a campaign of any significant note, as a gm or player because of this very thing. Everyone starts out as the snarky <class> and it goes downhill, with everyone fighting each other and trying to throw monkey wrenches in the gameplay, until some sort of meltdown happens and it's back to rolling up new characters.
Worse, nowdays when 50% of the people I play with are all tied up doing their own real life events, it falls to once every few months a game night occurs.
I have taken to asking my friends straight out if they think I'm gay, or they're hoping that I'm gay. (that's their go-to joke bag for my characters/me) whenever they start in. Trying to point out that they're taking shots or hamming it up for no reason other than to distract everyone seems to settle them down, even if they don't stop entirely.
I think you are on to something. The larger culture will always influence a minor subculture. I've known players to once in a while run some very one-joke characters. It isn't deep, but as the game goes on even a simpleton joker can broadened out. There is hope. The dm has a lot of power here if they can control the game, keep the joking to a minimum and keep the themes and sense of the game going. I like jokes and they are great for the rp side, I even like chaotic characters a lot (I need to play less of them), but that doesn't mean being an idiot all game.
I guess really the problem is not with chaotic characters, but with chaotic players.
I guess I am getting tired of how the alignment system has really become a mess, as each person weighs in their own idea how each alignment should be played, as well as using the alignment as a justification for their character's actions.
It doesn't help when the players are all set on making their own story, even if it interrupts the main story, or other player's enjoyment. It really does not help that most adventures are designed around the party being grouped together randomly, to justify the mismatched characters that seem to come about in character creation. Everyone wants to play the lead, have their characters in the spotlight, rather then focusing on the story itself.
I am currently actually writing a campaign the I hope would help with that. Yet even that I don't trust would help.
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I love how the "its this generation!" has already started. :P as pointed out D&D didn't even exist before sitcoms were popular.
I attribute it to this.
PEOPLE LIKE COMEDY.
Regardless of how serious the story, unless it is a full blown horror you will see a few jokes thrown in. Star wars,lord of the rings, Wheel of Time, Game of Thrones... all very serious. Every last one of them has jokes in there too.
I suggest you get used to the idea that people like to laugh even in the middle of a serious story.
I'm honestly not sure where humor comes into it.
Lawful people can be funny and get up to "wacky hijinks" too. It's not a Chaotic thing.
I guess I am getting tired of how the alignment system has really become a mess, as each person weighs in their own idea how each alignment should be played, as well as using the alignment as a justification for their character's actions.
You are free to play without alignment. Has discussion with your friends helped any?
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This is why a lot of characters are chaotic
1) Your default Adventuring parties are a small, non governmental agency without any connections to the outside world or sanction of any of the governments where they operate. Loose cannons doesn't begin to describe it.
2) Adventuring parties can do whatever they hell they want. Your typical 5th level fighter can take on the entire town even IF the wizard doesn't turn the entire village into a smouldering ruin with a fireball. While your typical neutral to lawful person might feel compelled to go along with the flow for fear of being beat up by the police , the police can feel compelled to go along with the party for fear of being beaten up by the party.
3) Adventurers only get called in when governments fail. This gives the impression that governments always fail because thats what the party always sees.
4) Referring back to 3, Many times the government IS the problem. The evil chancellor needs to be taken out, or legally possessed slaves need to be rescued. If the government isn't doing anything wrong then you don't need adventurers to fix the problem... giving adventurers the problem that the government is always doing something wrong.
5) The adventuring party is a small, mobile, efficient , self sustained and self sustaining social unit. The kind of good that law can bring: pooling resources from thousands of people into a project that will help everyone, laying down rules that are generally a good idea but not always, are generally irrelevant to an adventuring party. they don't see the benefits of government or large organized groups.
Love that analysis.
I was playing a lawful good once in Korvosa, and we ended up having to solve so many problems, we were really considering usurpation--for the greater good. After all, it was only being held together by us. Well, except for the guy that assassinated the seneschal, he was a nutter and was not helping. It was his pure evil turn that actually stopped half of us from going the way of treason. Another party member threw in with crazy necro assassin, because party members should be respected.
The evil player ended up being the final boss. Awkward.
The rest of us were happy how things were, after we cleaned up all the mess and got all our accolades.
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I don't use alignment at all, so not an issue for me. Either way, yeah, this is a player problem, not an alignment problem (though alignment IS a problem in general).
If someone said I couldn't play a chaotic character, I would just sigh. It aligns (ha!) pretty well with my real life attitudes. While I enjoy playing characters of different types, Chaotic Neutral is my go-to for adventurers out for gold and glory. Alignment has very little to do with playing characters with incoherent motivations. If the PCs can't get down to business or cohere as a group, to me that sounds like the players aren't trying hard enough to conceptualize characters that make sense as adventurers/heroes/murder hobos.
I don't really know why I am posing this, but I was wondering is anyone other then me gets tired of GMing a party of chaotic characters, or even playing with a character in a party of chaotic characters.
I was playing in a game with a bit of a pirate/swashbuckling theme, and the party was primarily chaotic. It really burnt me out playing in that game. People all really wanted to do separate things, and really there seemed to be no real party cohesion. It did not help that the GM's story was a little weak, and really had too many subplots distracting from the main story.
The thing is as a GM too, I hate chaotic characters. People seem to use the alignment to justify screwing around. And it's not even things that are interesting, sometimes it is just a deliberate attempt to throw a monkey wrench into things. I don't know why people play like this. It's like they like poking the other players trying to get a rise out them, but I can tell that if they are, they are doing it subconsciously. I think that it might just be a bad habit that they developed.
Maybe it is just the people I played with.
Don't hate the player.. Hate the game... Wait... what were we talking about again?
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On a more serious note I like to think about alignments as active or passive...
You sound like your group is 'actively chaotic'... Pursuing chaotic goals on chaotic schedules for chaotic reasons... Not simply adhering to their own personal code, but actively pursuing chaos for chaos's sake.
I tend to play passive chaotics... Those who are simply disinterested in the law, or law for law's sake. Or being beholden to any laws but their own personal code... which is chaotic but almost neutral in execution...
Chaotic neutral used to be characterized as 'the insane guy with no reason for doing whatever he does, deciding each action on whim with no forethought'.... Thankfully that's been changed to basically mean 'selfish'...
Sounds like your table has a case of the 'crazies' instead. They seem to revel in the chaotic which means 'shock value'... I'm glad 'comedy' has been brought up already because it's an important point.... The thing most people don't know about 'comedy improv' is that it's the opposite of selfish... Its an attempt to make everybody look funny all of the time, so that not just the audience but the performers are all having a great time. Not about upstaging your cohorts.
On the other hand in comedy improv, the story can-and-usually-does take a turn for the absurd in a heartbeat for the sake of the funny. A gm that values the sanctitiy of the original story or world over the free will improvisational party 'funny' is technically not 'in on the joke' and is gonna have no kinda fun time in that environment.
I consider Chaotic Good to be The Adventuring Alignment. You want to accomplish good, but you get to break the rules to get there. Being Lawful just gets in the way most of the time. And many adventures and campaigns do fit chaotic characters better than lawful ones.
OP, it definitely sounds like a player problem, not an alignment one. When players hide behind alignments to justify distracting/obtrusive behavior, there's something else going on.
Sit them down, talk it out, and let them know that all the diversion and side-tracking hijinks are very detrimental. Most of the time, it's just what happens when a group of friends sit at a table playing a game; if you want a more serious, more focused experience, you have to spell it out for them.
This doesn't mean sucking the fun out of the game for the sake of seriousness, but your fun appears to involve some degree of focus, and their utter lack thereof is ruining your fun. Your group needs to find a happy medium.
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I consider Chaotic Good to be The Adventuring Alignment. You want to accomplish good, but you get to break the rules to get there. Being Lawful just gets in the way most of the time. And many adventures and campaigns do fit chaotic characters better than lawful ones.
I play a LOT of Lawful characters, but I agree with your comment. My Lawful characters are usually there to try and bring some cohesion and order to the party, otherwise everyone just flies off the rails and goes their separate ways. I'm usually the "wet blanket" that wraps the party up together, and keep everybody on task.
A typical session goes something like this:
Me(not the DM): "Okay guys, the (BBEG) has the (Maguffin) and is trying to reach his boat to escape this island. We need to..."
Player A: (interrupts)"...We need to destroy his boat!"
Player B: "We could steal it!"
Player C: "I like boats, can we get a boat?"
Player A: "Totally! Hey DM, we want to go back to town and get a boat."
Me: "GUYS! FOCUS!"
I tend to take good too seriously to write it on my sheet, but i'll write chaotic neutral on there and for the most part play it as chaotic good...
In the same way that paladins write lawful good on their character sheet but for the most part play it as Lawful neutral with the lawful being their own personal laws...
I've never played an alignment called "wacky bastard' though.
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I simply stopped using any alignment and just have players pick some allegiances for their characters.
I have no idea why d20 Modern and Conan d20 are the only games that ever used that system. It's so much better than alignment in every way unless you specifically want PCs and NPCs to be carricatures of black and white morality.
I think jerk players will always be jerks. I have played and played with and dmed lots of good chaotic characters. You just cant be chaotic stupid. Just like you shouldnt be Lawful stupid or Evil Stupid. Play it in a mature and rational way and chaotic characters are just fine. Robin Hood could do just fine as the charismatic leader of a party. Tony stark works fine along side the avengers because even though he's a snarky jackass, he also has a sense of responsibility, and a desire to do good with his talents. Spiderman is another great modern example.
I've found that if you want a "Gaiz, this game is gonna be totes dramatic and srs bizness" type of game, you need to A. have theater-kid players, B. bring the ridiculously good dialogue, story, and description, or C. run or play a game in a non-face-to-face format (PbP, email, VTT, what have you), or have a combination of the above. Everything else, at least in my XP, tends to quickly devolve into dudes and dragons (a phrase I am just now making up to wittily describe the situation the OP is complaining about).
I don't really like chaotic characters, but it's not because of the alignment itself but more as most of my players who choose to be chaotic only did it to have an excuse if they want to do something totally silly/random stuff ("So you're in the front of the king discussing the orc attack and (Insert unrelated, silly, insulting... thing here" - "Why not? My character is chaotic!")
But I think this is more a player problem...
I consider Chaotic Good to be The Adventuring Alignment. You want to accomplish good, but you get to break the rules to get there. Being Lawful just gets in the way most of the time. And many adventures and campaigns do fit chaotic characters better than lawful ones.
.
I go with neutral good that is "you break or bolster the rules as necessary to do good"
Maybe it is just the people I played with.
Yes. The problem is with the players, not the alignment system.
This title should say:
- Tired of players and GMs who don’t know how to play chaotic characters or who understand the alignment system?
- Tired of GMs who make too many solo missions and plots in a campaign?
- Tired of players who are being jerks and try to derail sessions?
Don’t allow alignment to straight jacket and make your PCs or NPCs into predictable cookie cutter personas. It wasn’t designed for that and quite frankly, it makes for boring gaming.
If you want to see the kind of reaction genuine chaotic good adventurer would get...
The problem I've had with people that want to be what they consider 'true' chaotic is that their actions are almost the result of a randomly rolled chart. One chaotic would just do erratic, bizarre things and attribute it to their alignment, like looking at a doorknob for a round of comment, then digging a hole the next time, then yodeling their spells. It was like playing with someone on a really bad trip.
I don't want to derail this thread, but I've eliminated the alignment system completely from my current campaign. Alignment just messes up some old school players too much and they stop thinking about how their character would act (and instead think about 'how would my alignment act'). Solution: Ditch it.
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I believe your behavior should determine your alignment, not the other way around.
Decades ago I decided to tell my players NOT to pick an alignment. It really has no impact on the game. OK, a couple items or spells rely on alignment, but that about it. They can write an alignment on their sheet if they want, if it helps them in some way, but I don't care what (or even if) they write.
As they play, I evaluate their behavior and mentally assign an alignment to them based on what their characters do and how they behave, not what the players wrote on their sheets. And it almost never matters anyway. But if someone who always or even usually behaves in evil ways finds a holy sword and picks it up, he's going to lose a level, even if his character sheet says he's neutral or good.
To the OP's question, I think treating alignments this way has solved most of the problem you've noticed. I also tell my players that I expect a cohesive group. They can behave however they like, but I expect them to design a character who wants to be part of an adventuring team, wants to work with other adventurers, and doesn't behave in any way that is destructive to party cooperation. Between those two things, I have eliminated the problem you describe.
this is a specific player personality issue, not a character alignment issue
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As they play, I evaluate their behavior and mentally assign an alignment to them based on what their characters do and how they behave, not what the players wrote on their sheets. And it almost never matters anyway. But if someone who always or even usually behaves in evil ways finds a holy sword and picks it up, he's going to lose a level, even if his character sheet says he's neutral or good.
This reduces the time spent debating 'what would my alignment do?' during sessions, but as long as there are aligned spells and effects being used in-game, the player is going to have a view (however deluded) of where they stand on the Good/Evil, Law/Chaos axes.
Doesn't this just delay the inevitable arguing and wheedling until the moment they pick up the holy artifact?
"Whaddya mean, it doesn't think I'm good enough? What have I ever done that's not good?"
"Well...there was that time...and that time... and that time..."
"What? No way! I was totally justified in that..."<goes on to derail the rest of the session dredging up multiple old sessions>
EDIT: And I see claymade and Lincoln just made the same points.
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Don't think "What would my alignment do". Think, "What would my character do". Aye?
Somewhat unrelated to problem characters, but it always bothers me when someone tells you what your alignment would, can, should, or whatever do. Sometimes it feels like your escaping that problem with a chaotic character. Don't know if that's a perception more than a fact, but its how I've felt in the past.
Doesn't this just delay the inevitable arguing and wheedling until the moment they pick up the holy artifact?
"Whaddya mean, it doesn't think I'm good enough? What have I ever done that's not good?"
"Well...there was that time...and that time... and that time..."
"What? No way! I was totally justified in that..."<goes on to derail the rest of the session dredging up multiple old sessions>
In 2 and a half decades of playing this way, I've only had that discussion 3 or 4 times, and only once did it last more than a couple minutes - that one time was a bit of a heated argument that lasted about half an hour. Regrettable. But I am absolutely sure that, had we done it the traditional way, being a slave to the alignment he wrote on his sheet and tracking deeds incrementally, with me changing his alignment and informing him of the changes at the time I felt his deeds justified an alignment change, we would have had exactly the same half hour debate.
So I have had no impact at all for doing it this way, but gained a ton of good roleplaying without any slavish adherence to an alignment "system" that is really just an add-on, haphazard idea that is so removed from almost all actual game mechanics as to be almost completely unnecessary.
Don't think "What would my alignment do". Think, "What would my character do". Aye?
Exactly.
I totally get this. Not so much with chaotic characters as just 'wacky' characters. I have a particular player who always plays the same CN psycho--not in a PvP way, just in a totally nuts way. His first character was a pyromaniac raised by goblins, and that was fine. Then his next character was pyromaniac and violent. Then his next was evil and crazy. You get the idea.
It's gotten to the point that we either get stuck with a whole party of "zany characters" or some people have to play the Straight Man just to balance the Zany Player out. It's like he has permanent dibs on the role.
I may've gone a bit off-topic there, but I agree that one gets tired of the craziness after a while and just wishes someone would play a paladin.
I may've gone a bit off-topic there, but I agree that one gets tired of the craziness after a while and just wishes someone would play a paladin.
Not me. As a GM, if I had a player like this, the last thing I would want in the same group is a paladin. We would spend half of every session watching those two characters at each others' throats but neither one would quit the party or do anything drastic because this is supposed to be a group game...
No, much better to handle this kind of thing OUT of roleplay. For example, by the GM taking the player aside and explaining why his characters are detrimental and getting him to agree to play differently. Or getting him to play elsewhere.
Chaotic alignments are not the cause of bad player behavior; they are simply a magnet for it.
We should be grateful for the chaotic alignments. Especially CN. One glance at the Alignment box on a character sheet is all we need to identify bad players...
j/k
mostly
;)
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Chaotic alignments are not the cause of bad player behavior; they are simply a magnet for it.
We should be grateful for the chaotic alignments. Especially CN. One glance at the Alignment box on a character sheet is all we need to identify bad players...
j/k
mostly
;)
that is okay, I do the same thing with posts in threads, where I identify bad players by the attitudes they convey and/or the sweeping generalizations they make
j/k
mostly
;)
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I hate alignment. I really do. It's a pointless system that adds nothing but unnecessary restrictions and endless debates to the game.
That said... None of the OP's complaint's are related to character alignment. Those are player-related problems. If a player wants to be a dick and ruin the story, he will do it. And he'll even find a way to justify it to fit his character's alignment every time.
The rules are not the issue here.
But still... Alignment sucks and the game would be much better without it.