Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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[sarcasm]I may have missed it, but I thought Pathfinder was a game. I didn't realize that I needed a degree in calculus to play or run a game.[/sarcasm]
On a serious note, at what point does a protracted discussion on rounding detract from the enjoyment of the game?
Mark
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It's a bed that players who chronically play up made. Now everyone gets to lie in it.Hard cases make bad law.
Bad, but simple. It's the same principle as "If you two kids can't stop fighting over that video game, then no one gets it." Frankly, I think that campaign leadership has more important things to do than argue about people who chronically play up and therefore throw the WBL curve out of whack. So, they took away the choice. Problem solved. Another problem created? Maybe, but the abuse which some people felt was egregious is no longer going to be a problem.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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When it is preventing you from getting the scenario started.On a serious note, at what point does a protracted discussion on rounding detract from the enjoyment of the game?
Mark
How is it doing that, exactly? Because rounding .5 one way or the other causes this problem?
I thought this had been addressed.
But, rather than following what Mike has apparently said, this thread has devolved into a lecture on the theories of mathematics. That's my point.
.5 doesn't prevent anyone from getting the scenario started. This has been addressed.
Mark
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It is part of the guide.Mike has said, because of the different rounding conventions, that you may round x.5 up or down to the "nearest" whole number as you prefer.There is so much confusion involving this, it really needs to be part of the guide.
The round up or down if exactly .5 is not in the guide.
Keep in mind in the thread where he said this, it was a year ago during Season 4. The only real indicator this is valid for Season 5 is a VC who said he spoke with Mike during GenCon and that Mike indicated the rule was valid for Season 5.
players who chronically play up made.
Well on that point, all the people who chronically played up still chronically play up. They just require more math and negotiation of getting people to play strategic pregens now.
Standard mathematical convention accepted all over the globe.
Except that there is no standard mathematics convention to round up or down. On top of that, in biology the up or down depends on whether the number is odd or even. On some computer round() functions always round down, some always round up, and others follow the biology method.
So when you say standard, I say, there isn't a standard.
The language “round to nearest” is what made me point out that 3.5 was 4.
4 is not not the nearest number to 3.5, as it is the same distance as 3.
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Nobody had brought alternate characters except for me (and everyone wanted to play their own characters)As to the Detective 1, though, I do not think he had fun. He was very nervous the entire time, was not able to participate effectively in most combats, and even the things he did well, like Diplomacy, weren't good enough for the higher tier.Hopefully the next time he's in a similar situation, he'll see the wisdom of playing a 4th-level pregen instead.
And since it was pointed out said player doesn't like that, you'd think they would have more fun this way...because?!?
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And since it was pointed out said player doesn't like that, you'd think they would have more fun this way...because?!?
By refusing to play a pregen, he's limiting his options.
In the situation the OP described, the player could only have chosen to either play his own character (wildly out of tier), or not play at all. If he didn't like playing so far out of tier, he should have chosen to sit that one out.
And saying 3.5 is closer to 4 is like saying pi is 3.14. Just because it is "commonly accepted convention" doesn't make it factually or mathematically correct.
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In the situation the OP described, the player could only have chosen to either play his own character (wildly out of tier), or not play at all. If he didn't like playing so far out of tier, he should have chosen to sit that one out.
Hey bob, sorry you had to re arrange your schedule, get a babysiter,dash into the shower, get your chronicle sheets squared away and drive 40 minutes here, but you're throwing off our tiers here. Why don't you sit this one out?
I think that attitude would get a well deserved players handbook to the face.
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I think that attitude would get a well deserved players handbook to the face.
First of all, I said the player had two choices. I never said the rest of the table got to choose for him, so your post not applicable in that sense. But yeah, it kinda puts the whole "I never want to play a pregen" thing in perspective.
If my choice ever comes down to not getting to play, or playing my level 1 in a possibly deadly 4-5, then that pregen Kyra is going to start looking awful good.
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On a related note - here is a chart I made to keep the math simple. Count the number of players and add up their respective levels. If the total levels equal the numbers shown below, you may choose to play up or down. If above, you must play up, if below you must play down. If you have 5 PCs, use the first number for Seasons 0-3, and the second for 4-5.
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vvvvvvvvvvvv
Tier . . 4 PCs . . 5 PCs . . 6 PCs . . 7 PCs
1-5 . . . . 14 . .. . 18/13 . . . 15 . . . . 18
3-7 . . . . 22 . .. . 28/23 . . . 27 . . . . 32
5-9 . . . . 30 . .. . 38/33 . . . 39 . . . . 46
7-11 . . . 38 . .. . 48/43 . . . 51 . . . . 60
For Tier 1-7, subtier 3-4, use the following, and you must play 3-4 if you meet these numbers.
4 PCs . . 5 PCs . . 6 PCs . . 7 PCs
. 12 . . . . . 15 . . .. . 18 . . . . . 21
For subtier 6-7, use the Tier 3-7 numbers.
I hope this table comes out well.
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I think that attitude would get a well deserved players handbook to the face.First of all, I said the player had two choices. I never said the rest of the table got to choose for him, so your post not applicable in that sense. But yeah, it kinda puts the whole "I never want to play a pregen" thing in perspective.
If my choice ever comes down to not getting to play, or playing my level 1 in a possibly deadly 4-5, then that pregen Kyra is going to start looking awful good.
No...the player has 3 choices. Play the level 1 and not have fun. Play a pre gen and not have fun. Or don't play at all. The issue is that NONE of these are what we like to call good options. Because of the rigid tiering system, the player is left with no good choices. Under the old system, the table can chat and figure out what is best and most fun for them all. This new system...not so much.
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No...the player has 3 choices. Play the level 1 and not have fun. Play a pre gen and not have fun. Or don't play at all. The issue is that NONE of these are what we like to call good options. Because of the rigid tiering system, the player is left with no good choices.
There's the option of asking if anyone else is willing to play a lower level PC than originally planned (or a 1st level pregen), pushing the APL down so they can play the lower subtier.
Under the old system, the table can chat and figure out what is best and most fun for them all. This new system...not so much.
Be honest now, if you were one of the players of the 3rd or 4th level PCs, would you be happy going along with the player of the 1st level PC and playing down, if the old system was still being used? Given that in the past you described playing down as 'a joke'?
Have your opinions changed that much since this post?
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Because of the rigid tiering system, the player is left with no good choices. Under the old system, the table can chat and figure out what is best and most fun for them all. This new system...not so much.
The problem is, our society doesn't reach consensus very often. In the situation we're discussing, I suspect that 4 people would be most happy playing up, and 1 would be most happy playing down. How do you resolve that impasse? Regardless of the eventual decision or how much time you spend going back and forth, someone's going to end up unhappy.
It's not an ideal solution, but frankly, I can't think of an ideal solution. All this does is remove the potential for arguing, peer pressure, and ostracism of players by other players.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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4 people would be most happy playing up, and 1 would be most happy playing down.
Which is why the new system is so much better in most ways. Take the choice out of the equation as much as possible, will make people happier together. If their unhappiness extends beyond the night, the only victim for the wrath is the "system", but I doubt many will go beyond the night.
D20Modern used a 'Wealth DC' system instead of actual money
And why some detail oriented people like me hated the Wealth system with a passion.
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Bad, but simple. It's the same principle as "If you two kids can't stop fighting over that video game, then no one gets it." Frankly, I think that campaign leadership has more important things to do than argue about people who chronically play up and therefore throw the WBL curve out of whack. So, they took away the choice. Problem solved. Another problem created? Maybe, but the abuse which some people felt was egregious is no longer going to be a problem.It's a bed that players who chronically play up made. Now everyone gets to lie in it.Hard cases make bad law.Problem solved. Yup, jerk players continue to be jerks, everyone else has to suffer under new rules.
Yay! But at least its simple.
No need for snark.
The problem of people choosing to constantly play up and thereby throwing the WBL arc out of whack is solved by removing the aspect of choice on when you can play up. I didn't say anywhere in my post that PFS was now perfect. In fact, I said that new problems were created. I even agreed with you that this is bad law. Please don't focus in on two words out of my post and ignore the rest.
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The solution to all this is so obvious, I'm surprised more people aren't all over it. We just need to recruit more players!
When you have 30+ people showing up to your store's weekly game night, you can easily run a table of every tier for every scenario. Everyone gets to play their preferred tier, and nobody goes home unhappy.
Problem solved.
Yeah, ok, so maybe that's not realistic in every area. And even here in Chicago, where we actually have a Monday evening group that has 5-6 tables every week, we usually only have one table for that week's 7-11 adventure, if we even have enough players for that.
But I really did walk in this past Monday and have my choice of playing at a 1-2 or 4-5 table for Glass River Rescue. And we always have at least two tables doing tier 1-2 every week, so newbies are always made to feel welcome. And really, that's the key, isn't it? If you can make the newbies feel welcome, the group will grow. The more experienced players are usually ok with having multiple PCs, and sometimes switching to a lower level PC that week if there's no game at the right level for their higher tier character.
So I really do think that trying to advertise/recruit enough to always have a tier 1-2 table at public game days, so the newbies feel welcome, will go a long way to keeping everyone happy.
The other relatively simple solution, which also comes down to advertising/recruiting in advance for your games, is to coordinate before the game day. Try to get your players to commit to a PC and negotiate what tier the table wants to play during signups on a web site before hand, and people can come in knowing what to expect. It's not always going work out perfectly, but it'll help prevent a lot of these debates on game day about whether someone should play a pregen to fit in with the levels of the others.
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Most experienced players have several characters and will often bring multiple alternates to an event, ESPECIALLY if the event doesn't specify sub tier.
So, in practice, there is often a lot more flexibility in what sub tier to play than the rules indicate. Almost every time that I've played or run where subtier was in question the issue was solved first by discussion and then by one or 2 players picking the appropriate character from their stable.
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No...the player has 3 choices.
No, in this instance, the player has artificially limited themselves to two. Play an out-of-tier character, or not play. By refusing to play a pregen, they have limited their own options. You say they can either choose to either not play, or not have fun. Again, they're limiting themselves. If PFS is truly not fun for them, then maybe they should make the choice not to play.
Because of the rigid tiering system, the player is left with no good choices. Under the old system, the table can chat and figure out what is best and most fun for them all. This new system...not so much.
I disagree. The onus is still on the players to muster a party that will enjoy the scenario at whatever tier they wind up playing. The discussion is actually easier now because they can easily determine tier based on the levels the player brings to the table.
DM: Okay, right now it looks like we're doing 4-5. Mike, if you play that level 1 he may have a hard time. Do you have a higher level toon? No? Want to play a pregen? No? Okay. Hey John and Mark, do you have a lower level character you could switch to? Oh, you're trying to level up to play that new 5-9? I understand. Well, Mike. You're the odd man out. Are you sure you don't want to play a pregen? Okay, it's your choice.
And then Mike's character either lives or dies. No longer my problem.
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You really can't expect an RPG to have a system easier than looking in your wallet and counting to 20....Stuff like this is exactly why D20Modern used a 'Wealth DC' system instead of actual money. So you wouldnt spend as much time on your characters financial portfolio as you do on your own. :P
I was actually referring mostly to the idea of figuring APL based on the exact amount of experience the character has. Kind of an apples to oranges comparison, but if we are gonna do one thing really outrageous like that, it might not be long til something else becaomes more outrageous. :P
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No...the player has 3 choices. Play the level 1 and not have fun. Play a pre gen and not have fun. Or don't play at all. The issue is that NONE of these are what we like to call good options. Because of the rigid tiering system, the player is left with no good choices.There's the option of asking if anyone else is willing to play a lower level PC than originally planned (or a 1st level pregen), pushing the APL down so they can play the lower subtier.
Under the old system, the table can chat and figure out what is best and most fun for them all. This new system...not so much.Be honest now, if you were one of the players of the 3rd or 4th level PCs, would you be happy going along with the player of the 1st level PC and playing down, if the old system was still being used? Given that in the past you described playing down as 'a joke'?
Have your opinions changed that much since this post?
Nope, playing down is still super easy mode. Doesn't mean I won't do it with some discussion about what the rest of the group is like and wants. I do warn them that it could be extremely easy with me along...but yes, even in the old system, I have played down.