Best Unarmed Build Ever?


Advice

Sovereign Court

Human Fighter/Monk

Talents

Spoiler:

Dual Talent: (+2str, +2con) or (+2str, +2wis)
2nd Talent undecided

Stats

Spoiler:

Str: 18* (10)
Dex: 12 (2)
Con: 17* (7) +1@lvl 8, unlocks Fast Drinker feat
Int: 10 (0)
Wis: 14 (5) +1@lvl 4, +1@lvl 12
Cha: 7 (-4)

or

Str: 19* (13) +1@lvl 4
Dex: 13 (3) +1@lvl 12
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 10 (0)
Wis: 15* (3) +1@lvl 8
Cha: 7 (-4)

Levels

Spoiler:

1) Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles/Sacred Mountain 1: Bab +0, Combat Reflexes (Human), Dragon Style (monk), WFocus (Unarmed Strike) (lvl 1)
2) Monk 2: Bab +1, Dragon Ferocity (monk), Toughness (monk)
3) Monk 3: Bab +2, Elemental Fist (lvl 3)
4) Monk 4: Bab +3, +1 Str
5) Monk 5: Bab +3, Marid Style (lvl 5)
6) Monk 6: Bab +4, Marid Spirit (monk)
7) Unarmed Fighter 1: Bab +5, Marid Coldsnap (fighter), Mantis Style (lvl 7)
8) Monk 7: Bab +6/+1, +1 Wis
9) Monk 8: Bab +7/+2, Lunge (lvl 9)
10) Monk 9: Bab +7/+2
11) Monk 10: Bab +8/+3, Mantis Wisdom (monk), Dragon Roar (lvl 11)
12) Monk 11: Bab +9/+4, +1 Str

Notes

Spoiler:

This build focuses on picking up Marid Style chain asap while attempting to maintain high melee dmg. Marid Style + Lunge = 15' Elemental Fist atk. Took Dragon Style for higher dmg and Mantis Style/Wisdom for +2atk/+2 DC with Stunning Fist (and improving effectiveness of Dragon Ferocity).

I'm not sure if Mantis Style increases the DC for Dragon Roar since DR uses Stunning Fist attempts. Anyone know?

Elemental Fist dmg improves at monk lvl 5 & 10 due to Dragon Ferocity.
"A monk with this feat can use Elemental Fist as if he were a monk of the four winds" - APG

Elemental Fist + Drunken Strength swift action to tack on extra dmg. (Infinite ki as DM with booze also.)

MoMS removes FoB, and instead of "rebuilding" FoB with TWF/ITWF I decided to focus more on higher Style DC's (Dragon/Marid) via 16wis and Mantis Style. I could have altered some to get TWF later on at the expensive of Mantis Wisdom or Dragon Roar but figured I'd scratch it since ITWF required too high of Dex for my build.

Fast Drinker feat seems really steep, but Deep Drinker seems just as good with lower requirements. If going the 18con route, maybe I'd replace Lunge with Fast Drinker? Having a hard time with the limited amount of feats available.

If I'm missing any really useful Feats or you see anything wrong with my build please let me know.


I only want to suggest a single bit of advice since you are using MoMS: since you are not using flurry of blows, you have little reason to avoid armor. All you have to lose is the monk's AC bonus (which you are more than replacing) and bonus to speed.

Even before taking fighter levels, you can still use armor. The penalty for nonproficient armor use is based on its Armor check penalty. Reduce that to 0, and then there is no penalty. If you took the armor expert trait, you could even use a mithral breastplate with ease.

I mostly bring this up since you seem to be investing a lot in wisdom, so I assume you are going without armor. I am mostly just making sure that the more typical AC options are apparent.


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My favorite unarmed build (if we are talking pure damage) is Ranger/Monk/Fighter.
Use Str based Ranger with TWF combat style to ignore Dex (I'd take six levels for ITWF) three levels of Monk (MoMS) for Dragon Style/Ferocity to add 1.5 Str to dmg and Still Mind for Monastic Legacy (costs a point off your BAB but gives you scaling dmg die). Then finish with Fighter (Brawler) for the Close Combat bonuses.

If you like rolling a lot of dice then lose fighter for either alchemist (vivisectionist) or rogue or ninja and pick up the sap master and knockout artist feats.


far as i know, unarmed fighter can only grab the style themselves, not the extra parts. monks can because MoMS specifically says they can grab extra parts (and skip the prereqs) with the monk feats.

then again all that changes on your build is that mantis style ends up as your fighter feat, not marid coldsnap.

unless you dont meet the reqs for coldsnap at 7 for some reason.

Sczarni

What are Talents? Also, if you take the alternate racial trait that gives +2 to two stats it replaces your Human Bonus Feat - so drop Combat Reflexes from the build.

Didn't notice anything else at first blush that could be an issue - but I'm not really familiar with the Marid or Drinking feats...

Sovereign Court

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

My favorite unarmed build (if we are talking pure damage) is Ranger/Monk/Fighter.

Use Str based Ranger with TWF combat style to ignore Dex (I'd take six levels for ITWF) three levels of Monk (MoMS) for Dragon Style/Ferocity to add 1.5 Str to dmg and Still Mind for Monastic Legacy (costs a point off your BAB but gives you scaling dmg die).

The problem with that is I'm missing 6th and 10th lvl style feats from MoMS which I'm wanting Marid Style chain quickly. I'm wanting both so I can choose a Fort or Reflex save to crowd control (encase in ice) enemies from 30' (MC), or 15' (MS) range via Marid Style + Lunge.

lemeres wrote:
I only want to suggest a single bit of advice since you are using MoMS: since you are not using flurry of blows, you have little reason to avoid armor. All you have to lose is the monk's AC bonus (which you are more than replacing) and bonus to speed.

I kept Wis high for the Stunning fist and Marid Spirit/Coldsnap DC's to be fairly high. I could drop Wis for Light Armor but then my DC's will drop a few points also. I'm kind of on the fence on this.

Krodjin wrote:
What are Talents? Also, if you take the alternate racial trait that gives +2 to two stats it replaces your Human Bonus Feat - so drop Combat Reflexes from the build.

Good catch. Sucks though because I'm already feat starved so this just further adds to it. Also Talents should be Traits, just mistyped.

AndIMustMask wrote:
far as i know, unarmed fighter can only grab the style themselves, not the extra parts.

Unarmed Fighter says I can take any single "style feat", when I go to the feats section of UC there's a section labeled "Style Feat" that contains the style chains along with the styles. Is there a ruling on this?

Dark Archive

Look ar Marid Style, Coldsnap and Spirit. Note that only one says Combat, Style after it. No ruling required.

Sovereign Court

Human Monk11/Fighter1

Traits:

Dual Talent: (+2str, +2wis)
2nd Trait undecided

Stats:

Str: 18* (10) +1@lvl 8 & 12
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 10 (0)
Wis: 17* (7) +1@lvl 4
Cha: 7 (-4)

Level Progression:

1) Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles/Sacred Mountain 1: Bab +0, Elemental Fist (MoMS style), Crushing Blow(lvl 1)
2) Unarmed Fighter 1: Bab +1, Marid Style (UF style)
3) Monk 2: Bab +2, Marid Spirit (MoMS Style), Toughness (SM bonus feat), Dragon Style (lvl 3)
4) Monk 3: Bab +3, +1 Str
5) Monk 4: Bab +4, Dragon Ferocity (lvl 5)
6) Monk 5: Bab +4,
7) Monk 6: Bab +5, Marid Coldsnap (MoMS Style), Mantis Style (lvl 7)
8) Monk 7: Bab +6/+1, +1 Wis
9) Monk 8: Bab +7/+2, Lunge (lvl 9)
10) Monk 9: Bab +7/+2,
11) Monk 10: Bab +8/+3, Dragon Roar (lvl 11), Mantis Wisdom (MoMS Style)
12) Monk 11: Bab +9/+4, +1 Str

I would say my Marid/Dragon/Mantis progression setup is perfect and I don't want to touch Lunge either so I'd say those are set in stone.

I decided to drop Con to 12 because Fast Drinker feat doesn't seem worth raising Con so high.

What feats are more useful for this build? Crushing Blow, Mantis Wisdom, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), or Deep Drinker. I have the option to swap out Crushing Blow @ lvl 1 or Mantis Wisdom @ 11 (and use my MoMS feat on Dragon Roar).


I reckon the best unarmed build ever has only one or two levels of master of many styles, and spends the rest of his time in brawler fighter. Your build may get some nice party tricks with elemental strike and stunning fist, but the brawler gets way better to hit and damage, thanks to full bab and all those fighter pluses, and he also flat out destroys casters with menacing stance and no-escape.

As for feats, I'd say dragon style and dragon ferocity are key. I would also definitely go for two-weapon fighting, as if you cannot two hand your chosen weapon (which you can't with unarmed strikes) the advantages far outweigh the drawbacks. To get the prerequisites, you could swap your prioritization of dex and wis. Then, since unarmed strikes don't necessarily require free hands, you could also wield a shield without any drawbacks. And light armor with the brawling property is really good as well. Off course, these aren't as nice for your high wisdom build as they would be for a build with dex as its secondary ability score.

So, looking at what you give up by going wis over dex, I don't think your style feats make up the difference. You can only use elemental strike once per round, and I expect that the intention of Marid style is that the reach increase is only for that strike. You could probably argue RAW either way, but it does say the reach of your unarmed strike, singular. The various debilitating effects from the rest of the Marid style and Mantis style chain are pretty cool (and probably make your character a lot of fun to play), but if you want to play a lock-out type character you are probably better off with a caster of some sorts, to be able to target different saves.

By the way, I'm not in any way suggesting your build is bad. It looks like it should be a lot of fun to play, with fairly respectable damage and a cool save-or-suck theme. But I think that in terms of an unarmed damage dealer, you can do a lot more with a brawler, and I think that would be the 'best unarmed build'. A brawler (with a monk dip) can match or even beat a simple two-handed weapon build in terms of damage, which your build almost certainly cannot. And your save-or-suck part is incredibly dependent on your opponents failing fortitude saves against a DC determined by secondary ability score (with a slight bonus). There are just way too many enemies with very good fortitude saves to depend on that all the time. Also, your hitpoint total will be fairly poor with this build. I guess toughness makes up for the 12 con (as 14 would be considered standard for a martial, I think), but you still have a meagre D8 for your hit dice.

edit: As for the feat advice you asked for, I reckon you cannot really go wrong with weapon focus. As a monk, you can use all the +1s to hit you can get. Don't neglect the hitting for damage aspect by focusing too much on your 'party tricks', as you risk feeling useless against enemies with high fortitude saves. I wouldn't take crushing blow, personally. The enemies whose AC you really want to decrease likely also have a good fort save. The nice thing about stunning fist is that if it fails, at least you're still doing damage. With crushing blow, a passed save means a wasted turn.


Hey, few things.

1.) I tend to think crushing blow is sort of lousy. It's a full round action, plus a stunning fist attempt, and you have to both hit and have them fail a not-very-difficult save in order to achieve a B/B+ level result (-3 to -4 AC).

2.) Sacred Mountain monk isn't a great choice. Evasion is incredibly better than Toughness and +1 Natural Armor. Plus, you could go Quinggong monk instead, trade off slow fall and pick up a giant AC buff in Barkskin

3.) Unarmed fighter just to get Marid Coldsnap earlier and because you're a bit feat-tight might be premature.

Suggest this progression:

1) Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles/Quinggong 1: Bab +0, Elemental Fist (MoMS style), Dodge
2) Monk 2 Bab +1, Marid Style(MoMS style)
3) Monk 3: Bab +2, Dragon Style (lvl 3)
4) Monk 4: Bab +3, +1 Str
5) Monk 5: Bab +3, Crane Style (lvl 5)
6) Monk 6: Bab +4, Marid Spirit (MoMS Style)
7) Monk 7: Bab +5, Crane Wing (Level 7)
8) Monk 8: Bab +6/+1, +1 Con
9) Monk 9: Bab +7/+2, Dragon Ferocity (Level 9)
10) Monk 10: Bab +7/+2, Marid Coldsnap (MoMS style)
11) Monk 11: Bab +8/+3, Crane Riposte (lvl 11)
12) Monk 12: Bab +9/+4, +1 Str

-----

Basic argument: Mantis style isn't that awesome. It gives a marginal increase to your stunning fist hit chance and DC (10% chance, per hit, to cause some effect).

Crane Style, however, is amazing. With crane riposte, you can trade 1 AB for 4 AC (...totally. Worth. It.) and auto-deflect an attack. It shores up your defenses way more than anything else would, while not costing you much on the offensive end.

Take Dragon Ferocity at 9, because it does very little for you until you get a second attack.

-Cross (You don't have the spare feats to do the drinker feats, nor the stat points)

Sovereign Court

Yeah, I just recently glanced at Brawler and I have to agree you're right. I'm working on a different drunken build to provoke AoO's with Brawler and a few level dips in Monk (DM + MoMS).

The above build gives me 3 options vs enemies. Dragon Roar will save, Marid Coldsnap reflex save, or Marid Spirit fort save.

Marid + lunge lets me Elemental Fist 15' (or Coldsnap 30'). Since I'd normally be only doing 1 hit via SF or EF (or D-Roar/M-Coldsnap), I would be adding 1.5x str (Dstance) to that 1 hit. So if I use Mspirit Mcoldsnap or Dragon Roar I'm hitting with unarmed damage + 1.5str dragon stance + EF (advances like Mot4W 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, etc due to D-Ferocity).

The status combo would be expending 2 Stunning Fists and 1 Elemental Fist uses on Dragon Roar for unarmed damage + 1.5str Dstance + EF (no save, take full dmg), + 1d4rounds staggered (will save) + 1d4rounds entangled (fort save) in a 15 foot cone. The only problem is when I run out of Stunning Fist and Elemental Fists during a PFS game then I'm falling back on pretty subpar dmg.

I'll post the Drunken Brawler build after I get the kinks worked out and let you see what you think about it.

EDIT: @Crosswind

1) I'd have to agree with you both now that Crushing Blow is a waste for this build.
2) I like Quinggong but unfortunately I don't own that book and I'm putting the character together for a PFS game.

I grabbed Dragon Ferocity because at 5th level with that feat Elemental Fist does 2d6 instead of 1d6. The Mantis Stance was just to give me a +2atk boost since if I'm punching it'd probably be a Stunning Fist and the +2 DC would get me to a 20 DC for SF at 8th level.

I have to agree with you both though this character is a bit limited, I really really wanted to fit the whole Marid style chain in and quickly to have "options" and in doing that the character got handicapped a good deal.


Prototype has posted a monk/druid build in these forums that is quit impressive.


Good point on dragon ferocity. Adjusting.

1) Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles/Quinggong 1: Bab +0, Elemental Fist (MoMS style), Dodge
2) Monk 2 Bab +1, Marid Style(MoMS style)
3) Monk 3: Bab +2, Dragon Style (lvl 3)
4) Monk 4: Bab +3, +1 Str
5) Monk 5: Bab +3, Dragon Ferocity (lvl 5)
6) Monk 6: Bab +4, Marid Spirit (MoMS Style)
7) Monk 7: Bab +5, Crane Style(Level 7)
8) Monk 8: Bab +6/+1, +1 Con
9) Monk 9: Bab +7/+2, Crane Wing (Level 9)
10) Monk 10: Bab +7/+2, Marid Coldsnap (MoMS style)
11) Monk 11: Bab +8/+3, Dragon Roar(lvl 11)
12) Monk 12: Bab +9/+4, +1 Str

I'm still pretty confident that 2 crane feats are much better than two marid style feats. If nothing else, swap in crane style and crane wing for your Brawler feats.

15 foot reach for your 1 attack vs. 10 foot doesn't seem terribly better - I'm not sure lunge is worth it in this case.

Also, let's agree: Marid cold snap isn't incredible. Entangled is an annoying but not catastrophic condition. I'm of the opinion that rushing it isn't worth it - 10 is plenty early.

Finally, go take a look at QG monk: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-a rchetypes/qinggong-monk

It has some really nice trades you can make.

-Cross

Sovereign Court

Idk, Coldsnap is DC 21 break @ lvl7 and 18hp. Unless they either succeed a 21 Str check or do 18 points of dmg to it they take the following penalties while not being able to move.

"...takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell."

Not saying it's the "Win all" but that's not too bad and you can apply that 3 different ways. 1 EF use to directly target someone, 2 EF use for anyone in a 30' line, or 2 SF and 1 EF use for 15' cone radius. Not including the Unarmed and EF dmg.

I know QG is great, I'm not buying the UM book anytime soon which it's illegal in PFS play until I buy it to use it. I'd trade for Barkskin in a heartbeat though.

Lunge was more to just keep me farther from the frontline but after thinking about it some, I agree it's not really needed.

Sovereign Court

Ok here's the new Drunken Master build I put together. I took more Monk levels than I'd have hoped but I think you'll see why I considered it as possibly a better option. I will include the differences between monk7/fighter5 and fighter8/monk4 below.

Level Progression:

1) Brawler 1: Bab +1, Dodge (fighter), Mobility (human), Combat Reflexes (lvl 1)
2) Brawler 2: Bab +2, Panther Style (fighter),
3) Drunken Master/MoMS 1: Bab +2, Panther Parry (MoMS style), Snake Style (lvl 3)
4) Monk 2: Bab +3, Snake Fang (MoMS Style),
5) Monk 3: Bab + 4, Panther Claw (lvl 5)
6) Monk 4: Bab +5,
7) Brawler 3: Bab +6/+1, +1atk/+3dmg with Close Weapon group, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (lvl 7)
8) Monk 5: Bab +6/+1,
9) Monk 6: Bab +7/+2, Elemental Fist (MoMS Style), Power Attack (lvl 9)
10) Monk 7: Bab +8/+3,
11) Brawler 4: Bab +9/+4, Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike (fighter), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Tekko-Kagi (lvl 11)
12) Brawler 5: Bab +10/+5,

Here's the difference between:

Monk7/Brawler5 - High Jump, Slow Fall 30, Ki pool (cold iron/silver), +2 drunken ki, Unarmed Strike 2d6 instead of 1d10 with Monk Robes, +1 ki pool, Bonus Stance which equals +1d6 free dmg with Elemental Fist, and Wholeness of Body (Major reason for Monk7 - infinite drunken ki (max 3) and spend 2 to heal, practically an infinite self CLW wand, for use outside of combat)

Brawler8/Monk 4 - +2atk, +1dmg, +2 feats, gain Menacing Stance (-1atk & -4concentration to enemies adjacent to me)

Conclusion:
I lose some Bab for the most part but I get +1d6 free dmg if I spend a EF use, Unarmed Dmg goes from 1d10 to 2d6 with Monk Robes, I can use Wholeness of Body outside of combat as much as I want until I'm dead drunk, and a few other minor additions.

I picked up Tekko-Kagi proficiency towards the end since I still have a free hand to strike back and I can use it as a buckler (enchanting it should increase AC also like a buckler would so another cheap way to up AC a few points.)

If you noticed this build works around provoking AoO while having great AC vs provoked attacks and good AC normally. If enemies choose to ignore me I can still do decent damage while acting like a drunk.

Levels 1-5 are set in stone. Levels beyond that are up for debate/changes if someone can justify it. Only thing I could see is maybe picking up Toughness or TWF / ITWF which maybe going 8brawler/4monk would be better. If someone can theorycraft it out being a better option I'll definitely consider changing the build even though I'll loose some nice stuff.

Each time I provoke an AoO I get to attack 2 or so times due to Panther Parry and Snake Fang (Too tired to check and post all the details.)

EDIT: I'll post the stat build later this evening. Going to get some sleep for now.

@soupturtle - I just noticed EWP for Tekko-Kagi isn't needed for using it as a buckler. You're right about TWF, how would you fit TWF into the current build? I could easily do that with the 8brawler/4monk build but if it can fit into the monk7/brawler5 I think it would work a little better. Let me know what you think.


Don't like this build as much. Other build had a clear plan: elemental fist damage everywhere, and lots of ways to spend that damage.

A few issues with this build:

1.) I do not believe MoMS lets you skip Snake Sidewind

2.) Snake and Panther don't have a lot of synergy.

3.) You're not getting enough mileage out of MoMS to make it worth sacrificing flurry.

4.) Panther style is pretty mediocre. Eventually, enemies will recognize it and stop taking AoOs, and then you have blown SIX feats (dodge, mobility, combat reflexes, 3 panther feats) just to not get AoO'd.

5.) Snake style is also pretty mediocre. Your sense motive is going to basically be level + 3 + 4 (wisdom) + 2 (Snake Style).

At level 1, that gives you 20.5 AC on average against a single attack, which is good.

At level 10, that gives you 29.5 AC on average against a single attack, which is almost certainly less than your actual AC.

Snake Sidewind is downright awful.

Snake Fang is really good. But you have to consider whether or not it's worth it to take MoMS and spend 3 feats to get to that point.

This build is a lot more vulnerable to just being ignored by enemies - if they don't swing at you, there's very, very little you can do.

-Cross


I'd be interested in comparing this to my Goblin Brawler (Brawler 15 / MoMS 2)... at 17th level with normal WBL, he has the following stats:
.
.
.
.
17th level:
HP 200 (15d10+2d8+100), Fort +19, Reflex +22 (w/ Evasion), Will +13
Armor Class: 42 w/Crane Wing, Menacing Stance -3/-6
10 +6 [Dex] +1 [Small] +9 [Chain Shirt] +7 [Shield] +4 [Defensive] +5 [Ring]
Attack: +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17, Snake Fang w/Combat Reflexes, Crane Riposte
+16/+11/+6/+1 [BAB] +10 [Dex] +1 [Small] -2 [TWF] +1 [Trait] +2 [Brawling] +4 [Close] -1 [Defensive] +2 [Greater Focus] +4 [Amulet] -5 [Piranha Strike]
Damage: 1d6+32
1d6 +2 [Brawling] +10 [Dex] +6 [Close] +4 [Amulet] +10 [Piranha Strike]

Equipment: 410,000
Brawling Mithril Chain Shirt +5 (37,000), Bolstering Mithril Heavy Steel Shield +5 (37,000), Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists +4 (100,000), Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000), Belt of Physical Might +6 (Dex/Con) (90,000), Ring of Protection +5 (50,000), Ring of Freedom of Movement (40,000), Winged Boots (16,000)

One of the big weaknesses of this build is lack of reach with his attacks, but between his seven (un-Hastened) attacks per round and all of the AoO's granted by Crane Riposte and Snake Style, he's a regular tasmanian devil-style damage machine who's absolute death to spellcasters. Its also probably helped that we've house-ruled that natural attacks can provoke AoO's even if they have reach and you do not.


Here, I realize that I'm just sorta picking holes in your build. Let me put up a counter-build, what I regard as a rock-solid choice, and we can compare. I'll dodge Quinggong, because you don't have the book.

Bonus feats in parentheses. I'm going to be lazy about

12 Monk of the Four Winds/Drunken Monk

Stats:
Str: 12
Dex: 16 + 2(race) + 2 (levels)
Con: 15 + 1(levels)
Int: 10
Wis: 14 + 2(race)
Cha: 7

(1) (Dodge), Crane Style
(2) (Weapon Finesse)
(3) Weapon Focus: Unarmed
(4) +1 Con
(5) Crane Wing <---Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists
(6) (Combat Reflexes)
(7) Crane Riposte
(8) +1 Dex
(9) Fast Drinker <---Belt of physical Perfection by this point
(10) (Improved Critical: Unarmed)
(11) Deep Drinker?
(12) +1 dex

Three essential items here: Agile amulet of mighty fists, Monk's Robe, and Belt of Physical Perfection. The belt lets you get Fast Drinker, which allows you to reasonably drink in combat, which, combined with Deep Drinker, means you can use ki-pool in the middle of combat.

This character has a number of very neat tricks:

1.) He is dependent only on 2 stats: Dex for attack, damage and defense, and Wisdom for defense.
2.) He has 3d6 elemental fist damage available 12 times per day.
3.) He can store up to 6 points of drunken ki, over his normal ki pool.
4.) He can (and will always) fight defensively, to get +4 to his AC from Crane Riposte and acrobatics
5.) And he can negate 1 attack per round for the eff of it.
5a.) Replace WF: Unarmed with Deflect Arrows if you want to just auto-kill an attack per round no matter what its source
6.) He has 5 attacks per round, at very good attack bonus, thanks to his single-stat dependency.
7.) He gains Slow Time, which allows him to spend 6 Ki Points (Hey, is that the size of our drunken ki pool? Oooh...) to take three standard actions. I'll let you consider how useful this may be.

Let's compare, a bit. By going unarmed fighter, you pick up +1 attack and +5 damage over this build, per strike.

But your unarmed strikes are 2d6 vs. 2d8 for mine, so the difference is +1 attack and +3 damage.

In all fairness, I had to buy Agile, so you'll also have +1 to attack and damage on me there. You'll be at +2 attack and +4 damage.

Damage-wise, I think you still lose, though:
1.) I have 5 attacks per round. You have two.
2.) I have both drinker feats: I can drink 1 round, then use ki point abilities to get an extra attack for the next 2 rounds. You will run out of ki relatively quickly, or have to start using real ki.
3.) I have improved critical. Can't miss that damage feat, sir.

Defense-wise, you're definitely behind:
1.) My AC is much better. Probably 8-10 points better, with dex as a primary stat and crane style.
2.) I can auto-negate 1 attack per round
3.) Better saves (stats in dex+con)
4.) Improved Evasion

Utility-wise, I think the above build still wins:
1.) More skill points
2.) 3 standard actions in 1 round! Neeeat.

-----------

(Also, I don't mean this to come off as confrontational - MY BUILD VS YOUR BUILD. I just felt that maybe instead of poking holes, I should be constructive).

-Cross

Sovereign Court

1) MoMS does, only exceptions are you must have Elemental Fist before taking a Style with that prereq or you must have the Style prior to taking a feat chain within it. All other prereqs are ignored.

Unarmed Fighter on the other hand may only pick a Style with his lvl1 feat (can't spend to learn a feat within the style chain). That was something I was having issues with in the previous build.

2) Dodge +1ac, Mobility +4ac vs AoO, +4ac via Ki Pool (infinate ki via Drunken Master) + Light Armor + Tekko-Kagi + other items. Not including Wis since I'm using Light Armor and not including Dex (probably 15 or 17) that's 26ac (not including "other items" and assuming Dex is 14). Typical round would be spending a swift action for +4ac, I move around provoking AoO's which enemies attacks, I Panther Parry and enemy takes -2atk/-2dmg vs me, enemy misses, which triggers Snake Fang, if Snake Fang hits I can spend an immediate action to strike a 3rd time. At the end of the turn I spend my normal action drinking to regain my lost ki point.

4) If enemies recognize I'm based off AoO's I can still get AoO's on them as they move away from me to attack my team. I could focus on disarm if it came down to it and mess with them that way by taking their weapon and storing it or throwing it away.

My regular attack would still be something like 2d6+20 per unarmed strike +1d6 EF (rough estimate of lvl 12). If I picked up TWF and ITWF then I'm sure I'd be dealing a good amount of dmg regardless of if they ignored me. If they are scared of me I can just bypass them and disarm the wizard or cleric's wand/etc if they just want to let me stumble past them.

5) Snake Style is indeed mediocre but the only reason for taking it is to get Snake Fang which synergizes with Panther very well.

I could probably hit 36 AC around level 10. I'm wearing Light Armor and a "buckler" and those are both cheaper/easier to upgrade than other items.

If they ignore me and I go TWF/ITWF I should be able to attack 3 times a round? (correct me if I'm wrong) Which is roughly 6d6+60 +1d6ef assuming all three attacks hit.

EDIT: Don't worry. I'd rather have someone poking at my build than no responses. I do appreciate your criticism though, because if I can't find any decent answer then I know I need to make some changes (which has happened a few times already on this thread).

Hopefully my response reveals a few things that were previously not easily noticed in the build. I could grab a few extra feats by going higher Brawler also but then I'd lose a few nice features.

Sovereign Court

@Wiggz - How do you have that many attacks? MoMS removes Flurry of Blows...


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Kysune wrote:
@Wiggz - How do you have that many attacks? MoMS removes Flurry of Blows...

I don't use FoB, I go TWF with the Brawler archetype (definitely worth checking out btw - its a great, great unarmed archetype; check out Menacing Stance and No Escape).

.
Feats by level:
1st Weapon Finesse
1st Two-Weapon Fighting
2nd Improved Unarmed Strike
2nd Stunning Fist
2nd Snake Style
3rd Snake Fang
3rd Combat Reflexes
4th Dodge
5th Crane Style
6th Crane Wing
7th Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8th Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
9th Crane Riposte
10th Greater Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
11th Stand Still
12th Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13th Improved Critical: Unarmed Strike
14th Critical Focus
15th Sickening Critical
15th Staggering Critical
16th Critical Mastery
17th Piranha Strike

The two Monk levels are taken at 2nd and 3rd.

So that's 7 attacks plus probably another one from Haste at 17th level plus the AoO from Crane Riposte plus any additional attacks from Snake Fang whenever someone attacks and misses. The character plays like a cross between the Tasmanian Devil and Yoda from Star Wars III.

Post 17 I was torn between taking 3 levels of Transmuter or just continuing Brawler and grabbing the feats Weapon Specialization, Iron Will/Stunning Critical and Greater Weapon Specialization.


Probably want to talk to your DM about the interpretation of the MoMS skipping-snake-sidewind thing. The Hero-labs guys interpret it the other way, and I can't find an official clarification.

I think you're mis-estimating your swift action economy. First, assume for a moment that you get 3 rounds before combat to drink (or you walk around drunk, so you have 3 drunken ki points at all times). Third round of combat, you have to spend real ki. My build can blow a swift action to stock up for the next two, and is never out of drunken ki even if it's caught out.

If you use your Snake Fang immediate, you can't spend a ki point on your next turn (immediate actions use up next turn's swift action).

And you do, as you noted, about 2d6+20 damage, twice a round. Three times if your opponent hasn't seen the trick before, four times if you want to use next round's swift action and not have your +4 AC.

Meanwhile, my approach does 2d8 + 6(dex)+2(weapon)+6(...should take piranha strike instead of wf:unarmed, knew I forgot something), which is about 4 less damage per attack than you...

...six times a round. And I still have dex and combat reflexes.

You're basically relying on one trick: Get enemies to attack me, then hit them hard.

If that doesn't happen, there's very little your character can do. One-trick ponies don't really end up working well all the time, particularly when the trick is just a Good trick, not a Ridiculously Broken Trick.

Finally, there's going to be a pretty huge AC difference, I think. Light Armor is +4 AC. Wisdom + Monk AC bonus = +8 AC. Your Dex is going to be 12. Mine is going to be at least 22, which is another 5 AC. Crane Stance effectively gives another ~2 AC over what you could do otherwise. So that's an 11 AC difference. You can mitigate it by using +4 AC every time, but you're sacrificing an attack for it.

All of these builds can do the Tekko-Kagi trick. Light armor is exactly as expensive to upgrade as Bracers of armor (bonus^2*1000). Going light armor changes your AC by basically nothing - it might even decrease it.

-Cross (Wiggz has a reasonable example of what happens if you go straight-out damage. But he's basically playing a straight fighter who dips in MoMS to get crane and snake. This just in: Level 17 fighters can do a lot of damage)


Gotta say, though, Wiggz' build is suuuper tightly put together. All feats appear exactly where they should, for maximum utility. Tip of the optimization cap to him, that's really nicely done.

-Cross (I think it gets out-damaged pretty significantly by a TWF scimitar fighter, just because of crit range, but it depends on how many AoOs he gets from Snake Fang in a given round)


Crosswind wrote:
Gotta say, though, Wiggz' build is suuuper tightly put together. All feats appear exactly where they should, for maximum utility. Tip of the optimization cap to him, that's really nicely done.

I 'preciate that - worked on it for quite a while. The only problem I see with it (and this is a personal pet peeve) is that it relies on a magic item or two to really work; Brawling armor, Agile Amulet, etc. Usually I specialize in builds that don't require any magic items to function, and let magic enhance a build that could exist just fine without it. Looking at it, I think I coudl probably take Pirahna Strike at 13th instead of 17th and bump all those critical feats up one. I do like that I was able to take Standstill the same level I get No Escape.

.
If anyone is interested, I took Goblin Foolhardiness and Vagabond Child (Disable Device) as traits and the skills look like this:

Skills:
Acrobatics (1-10)
Escape Artist (11-20)
Climb (2)
Swim (3)
Disable Device (1-20)
Perception (1-20)
Stealth (1-20)

I like having characters with utility outside of combat, and as a small character he made for a great scout.

FWIW, I've never met anyone who interpretted MoMS as not allowing a requisite feat to be skipped. I think HeroLab just got this one wrong.

Now you want a fun build? You should see the twin Aasimar Dervishes of Dawn that are getting played in our Wrath of the Righteous campaign.


All Agile-based builds basically are mediocre until you get the agile item, and incredible thereafter. Your build would be fine without every other item you have.

The basic rule of "Fighter or Monk?" is that every level you put towards fighter will make you a bit less flexible in terms of skills and abilities, and a bit better at doing damage.

I think Wiggz' build goes towards one end: it's as flexible as possible without sacrificing any damage, and mine goes towards the other: it's as damagey as possible without sacrificing any flexibility.

-Cross


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Driver 325 yards wrote:
Prototype has posted a monk/druid build in these forums that is quit impressive.

Thank ye for remembering me! I in fact have several unarmed builds (optimization of fist-fighting seems to be a hobby of mine).

Way of the Angry Bear.

Druid / Monk that deals 12d8 damage per unarmed strike.

The Grandmaster

Ninja (Scout) / Monk (Sensei) who deals 2d10 + 10d6 damage with unarmed strikes and can coup de grace foes in the first round of combat.

Irori's Champion

Monk / Paladin / Cleric / Champion of Irori who can smite evil/chaos every enemy in every fight and has a ridiculous AC based on Cha (I also wrote a guide!)

And the Conqueror Ooze.

Monk/ Druid / Barbarian where the power of cheese allows you to deal 448 damage (+ str and whatnot, so, really closer to 480) as a standard action.

Though I wouldn't say any of these were the best unarmed builds around, as that would be a bold boast indeed.

And besides, the giants on whose shoulders I'm standing probably wouldn't like it.

prototype00

Sovereign Court

You're correct, spending my immediate action would use up my swift action for next round. Majority of the time I'd just do 2 retaliation attacks. But there's the option to do 3 retaliations if I wanted to burn my next turn's swift action.

During my standard attack I should be able to attack 3 times (I'm guessing as I don't have Hero lab and I'm doing this all with notepad) with TWF and ITWF. My stats would be high Str (18) and high Dex (17 by 8th lvl), Wis being at 14 since I don't have FoB and can wear Light Armor.

Normally I'd use my standard action for drinking but I have 3 max drunken ki and 3 regular ki to use before going empty. I wish I had Deep Drinker but that drops my brawler feats, Bab, and +dmg, not to mention the fighter only feats. :/

I have the potential of doing 5 or 6 attacks to 1 enemy and 2 attacks to 1 or more other enemies if they attacked me during a provoke.

I have about 6 rounds of ki to spend (ki and drunken ki) and most fights don't last more than 6 rounds.

----

I like your build Cross, but I'd be taking this from 1-12 in PFS, where Mot4W gets great with Slow Time is where I'd be retiring my character.

I could adjust my build to include an Agile Amulet though like yours, which would let me drop Str a good deal to use elsewhere.

I do like Deep Drinker but the prereq is rough when not going straight monk. Fast Drinker is so-so considering it spends my swift action which I need.

You don't get Monk AC bonus when wearing Light Armor. My AC would be Dodge +1, Light Armor +4, Dex +3, Tekko-Kagi +1, +4 ki pool, (+4 vs AoO) = AC 23 or (AC 27 vs AoO's). Not including Light armor, Tekko-Kagi, or other items enchanted to increase AC. I think you missed a few parts in my AC. During AoO's if they attempt to attack, I strike them first and if I hit that's -2atk for them also. Every little bit helps. I have 6 rounds before I start sacrificing attacks though before I have to start drinking.

I want to like Mot4W but I feel like there's not a whole lot of feats to go around and they seem to get a big boost at lvl 12 but before that are kind of so-so. I guess they have FoB which is a big plus over MoMS so maybe I need to take a deeper look. EF is a given with 3d6 at lvl 10, and you are using Drunken Strength for 2d6 as swift I'd assume and drinking every 3rd round or later. Ok I see the potential now, EF + Drunken Strength + FoB.

EDIT: Even though it's not a whole lot of extra dmg, the Drunken Strength is what made things click. I was like oh...they do still have FoB....well I can run around and provoke a total of 7 attacks on 3 enemies and then make a standard attack along with a free 1d6 from EF.

Then I thought about it and noticed Mot4W keeps FoB, EF is 3d6, swift action 2d6 from Drunken Strength then Monk Robes increase dmg to 2d8. That put it into perspective. I'm not sure I'll go the exact same route as your build but I'll come up with something similar as DM/Mot4W and post later tonight.


I was mostly just talking about relative AC.

Light Armor vs. wis + Monk AC bonus. Wis + Monk AC bonus should win or be close almost every time.

Unless you're just going to dump wis, which is reasonable.

Drunken Strength is actually sort of crap. For 1 swift action you can get another attack, just from straight monk. That is always worth more than d6 (or 2d6) extra damage.

Careful about your swift action economy! =)

-Cross

Sovereign Court

Here's what I came up with -

Your stat suggestion is about as good as it gets. The only difference might be switching Str to 10 and Int to 12 for extra skill points since Str isn't going to help any (except carrying capacity).

Levels:

1) Drunken Master/Master of the Four Winds 1: Bab +0, Elemental Fist (MotFW), Dodge (monk), Crane Style (lvl 1)
2) Monk 2: Bab +1, Combat Reflexes (monk)
3) Monk 3: Bab +2, Weapon Focus: Unarmed (lvl 3)
4) Monk 4: Bab +3, +1 Con
5) Monk 5: Bab +3, Crane Wing (lvl 5)
6) Monk 6: Bab +4, Imp. Disarm (monk)
7) Monk 7: Bab +5, Crane Riposte (lvl 7)
8) Monk 8: Bab +6/+1, +1 Dex
9) Monk 9: Bab +6/+1, Fast Drinker (lvl 9) – Belt of Physical Perfection
10) Monk 10: Bab +7/+2, Improved Critical: Unarmed ( monk)
11) Monk 11: Bab +8/+3, Deep Drinker (lvl 11)
12) Monk 12: Bab +9/+4, +1 Dex

Conclusion:
I don’t see how you’re getting Weapon Finesse assuming you’re a Human with Dual Talent trait for +2dex +2wis. How would you fit Weapon Finesse in or am I missing something here?

So essentially I picked up Imp. Disarm at lvl 6 to synergize with the Tekko-Kagi's disarm ability and toook Combat Reflexes at lvl 2 since I don't see how you can take Weapon Finesse.

I'm still debating on what Style but keeping it Crane just for the moment. I'll update later with Style options.

Sovereign Court

Stupid thing locked my post I was editing and erased all my changes.

I'm thinking this may be a decent change -

New Level Build:

1) Drunken Master/Master of the Four Winds 1: Bab +0, Elemental Fist (MotFW), Dodge (monk), Combat Reflexes (lvl 1)
2) Monk 2: Bab +1, Mobility (monk)
3) Monk 3: Bab +2, Boar Style (lvl 3)
4) Monk 4: Bab +3, +1 Con
5) Monk 5: Bab +3, Fast Drinker (lvl 5) Belt of Con +2 (4k gold)
6) Monk 6: Bab +4, Imp. Disarm (monk)
7) Monk 7: Bab +5, Weapon Focus: Unarmed (lvl 7)
8) Monk 8: Bab +6/+1, +1 Dex
9) Monk 9: Bab +6/+1, Free (lvl 9)
10) Monk 10: Bab +7/+2, Improved Critical: Unarmed ( monk)
11) Monk 11: Bab +8/+3, Deep Drinker (lvl 11)
12) Monk 12: Bab +9/+4, +1 Dex

Conclusion/Thoughts:
Boar Style gives 2d6 bleed that round if I hit an enemy 2x+. Also gives option of Bludgeon or Slash dmg. Frees up 2 Feat slots (1 @ lvl7 & 1 @ lvl9) Not sure how you got Weapon Finesse in there @ lvl2, if you messed up somewhere then a feat will have to be dropped which Weapon Focus: Unarmed at lvl 3 would need to be dropped to get it.

If I take Crane I have to fight defensively which lowers my Bab more. The retaliation attack is probably equal or a little more than the 2d6 bleed gained from Boar but I have to spend 2 more feats to get all of Crane's goodness.

Any suggestions for spending 7th and 9th lvl free feats? Where is Pirahna Strike? Don't direct me to d20pfsrd's website as I need to make sure it's 100% legal for PFS and I have to own the book.

Also, I'm thinking it may be better to drop Str to 10 and raise Int to 12 for the extra skill point per lvl since Str won't help in melee after lvl 4-5 with an Agile Mighty Fist necklace.


here is the one I'm working on. Not the best, but adds some out of combat utility. Note GM is allowing me to take Infiltrator and Urban Ranger.

Ranger (infiltrator, Urban) 6 / Monk (MoMF) 2 / Fighter (Brawler) 12

Traits: Breed for War, Heavy Hitter

STR 20 (22)
Dex 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 7

1)Ranger 1: Weapon Focus Unarmed strike, Dodge
2)Ranger 2: TWF
3)Monk 1: Boar Style, Boar Shred
4)Fighter 1: Dragon style
5)monk 2: Dragon ferocity, Boar Ferocity
6)Fighter 2: Power Attack
7)Fighter 3: Eclectic (Fighter)
8)Ranger 3:
9)Ranger 4: Endurance
10)Ranger 5:
11)Ranger 6: ITWF, Intimidating prowess
12)Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization

Naked at level 12 w/ power attack
hit = 11+1+1+6-2-3= (+14)/14/9/9/4
damage = 6+6+3+3+2+1= 21+1d6 + 3 first strike + (2d6 bleed on 2 hits and 1d6/round and demoralize check +24ish)

can do traps like a rogue + ranger stuff.


Lots of good advice in here already, and I think your new build is pretty solid. I think piranha strike is from a pretty obscure source, but I have no clue about what is PFS legal and what isn't. Still, if you do look at d20pfsrd, it says what source it's from at the bottom of the page for every single thing on that website.

I think boar over crane is a pretty good move. A monk cannot take the penalty to hit as well as something like a fighter can, and doesn't do as much damage with the AoOs. It also means you can drop combat reflexes, as you won't get that many AoOs without it.

Also, since this thread is called the 'best unarmed build ever', I thought I'd share the best thing I can come up with. It's pretty similar to wiggz build I guess, but I still think strength is preferable over dex, both for ease of use from level 1 and for damage through dragon style. Off course on a low point buy the strength build doesn't work so well, but I think 20 points is enough to make it work just fine.

Spoiler:

Human 14 brawler fighter / 2 master of many styles monk

Ability scores (20 pts):
str 16+2, dex 15, con 14, int 10, wis 10, cha 8

Focused study alternate racial trait
Traits: latent psion, dangerously curious

Level progression
1) Fighter 1: Power attack, Two-weapon fighting, Skill focus intimidate
2) Fighter 2: Intimidating prowess
3) Monk 1: Boar style, Boar ferocity
4) Fighter 3
5) Monk 2: Dragon style, Boar shred
6) Fighter 4: Dragon ferocity
7) Fighter 5: Improved two-weapon fighting
8) Fighter 6: Weapon focus unarmed strike, Skill focus UMD
9) Fighter 7: Iron will
10) Fighter 8: Double slice
11) Fighter 9: Stand still
12) Fighter 10: Two-weapon rend
13) Fighter 11: Improved iron will
14) Fighter 12: Weapon specialization
15) Fighter 13: Greater weapon focus, Greater two-weapon fighting
16) Fighter 14: Greater weapon specialization, Skill focus perception

This character would a brawling chain shirt and a heavy steel shield. Between the free intimidation checks and menacing stance, he'll be an incredible nuisance to any opponent, and damage should be competitive with (or better than) just about anything. Armor class, saves and hit point will all be pretty good. The minor focus on UMD will give lots of added versatility in the mid levels.

The only item dependency is in needing +2 dex on your belt of strength by level 7. If that won't work in your campaign, you could either go dual talent to get it from the start, or put your first two level ups in dex and delay improved two-weapon fighting until level 8.

I didn't put much thought into the high-level feats, but while the weapon focus/specialization line should be solid enough, it can also be swapped out for something more flashy.

Sovereign Court

@soupturtle - Good stuff. I check and Pirahna Strike is PFS legal but I think I'll pass on that as $8 for 1 feat just isn't worth it.

I forgot to include Weapon Finesse in there on the build so I'll swap Combat Reflexes at lvl 1 for Weapon Finesse. Possibly picking up both Boar Style and Snake Style to allow for an offensive and defensive option. Boar style won't be of much use against constructs, elementals, or undead. Any suggestions on other feats?


For feats, I think that on a dex monk build, you would really like to have one of power attack and piranha strike. Without either of those your damage per attack will be rather low, especially as you cannot use dragon ferocity (since dex based) nor get weapon specialization or any of the other straight damage bonuses fighters pick up so easily. Boar style is helpful, especially at lower levels, but it doesn't scale up for the mid to high levels.

I see Wiggz' build doesn't have piranha strike until level 17 either, but as a brawler fighter he's got lots of other options to add damage. I'd say for you power attack will be beneficial in most fights, and very important on the many, many occasions where you're fighting something with a bit of DR that you cannot ignore, or with a huge number of hit points and poor AC, or just with a poor AC in general (like when you try to take out the caster) when you'll really wish you could trade some to hit for more damage.

So if you don't want to buy the source you need to get piranha strike (which I totally understand), see if you cannot get the 13 strength you need for power attack. I'd say that's probably more useful than having your starting dex or wis one higher.

Sovereign Court

Would grabbing Punishing Kick at 11th level be one of the best options? It looks like I could perform Punishing Kick at the start of my FoB, Fort save vs getting knocked prone then rest of my FoB proceeds with beating the tar out of the poor sap that's eating pavement.

I'd think this would boost my damage output via hitting more frequently.


Okay, if we're talking sheer damage, I'm re-thinking my love of crane style over snake style.

Basically, snake style is useless until Snake Fang. But monks can get to pretty silly AC by mid levels without working too hard at it, and being virtually guaranteed to get your full suite of AoOs on a giant-dex character until opponents realize not to attack you is sort of amazing.

-Cross

Sovereign Court

Question -

Lvl 1 monk feat - Do I take Deflect Arrows or Combat Reflexes?
I must choose one because I don't have room later on to take the other.

Btw here's my updated build which blows my previous builds out of the water. I'll let you think about how to best use Punishing Kick, Scorpion Style, Gorgon's Fist, and Medusa's Wrath.

Garuda Aasimar - +2dex +2wis
See Invisibility 1/day

2 Extra Traits: undecided

Stats:

Str: 10 (0)
Dex: 18* (10) + 2 (levels)
Con: 15 (7) + 1 (levels)
Int: 10 (0)
Wis: 17* (7)
Cha: 7 (-4)

* = +2 from race

Levels:

1) Drunken Master/Master of the Four Winds 1: Bab +0, Elemental Fist (MotFW), Dodge (monk), Combat Reflexes (lvl 1)
2) Monk 2: Bab +1, Scorpion Style (monk)
3) Monk 3: Bab +2, Weapon Focus: Unarmed (lvl 3)
4) Monk 4: Bab +3, +1 Con
5) Monk 5: Bab +3, Fast Drinker (lvl 5) Belt of Con +2 (4k gold)
6) Monk 6: Bab +4, Gorgon's Fist (monk)
7) Monk 7: Bab +5, Boar Style (lvl 7)
8) Monk 8: Bab +6/+1, +1 Dex
9) Monk 9: Bab +6/+1, Power Attack (lvl 9)
10) Monk 10: Bab +7/+2, Medusa's Wrath ( monk)
11) Monk 11: Bab +8/+3, Punishing Kick (lvl 11)
12) Monk 12: Bab +9/+4, +1 Dex

Sovereign Court

Blah, few mistakes. Dropping Dodge or Combat Reflexes @ lvl1 for Weapon Finesse. Any suggestions on which one to drop?

Also, I'd have to adjust my stats by dropping Dex down 1 point to 17 and raising Str to 13 to get Power Attack. Stat gains would change to +1con @lvl4, +1dex @lvl8, +1wis @lvl12. The question is, is it worth doing that to get Power Attack? Or is there another feat that would be as, or almost, as helpful?


The stat spread is a bit problematic. I think power attack is pretty important, but if you drop dex, get a belt of con rather than a belt of dex and put only one of your three level increases in dex, your dex probably ends up being not quite up to par.

I personally think your character would be better of if you either dropped your wis or your con to 14, with the other one to 16. So you'd have to give up on either the fast drinking, or live with a slightly lower DC on your monk abilities. Right now, you're spreading yourself too thin, in my opinion, and your main role (hitting things and doing damage to them) is suffering from it, by not being able to get power attack, or by not getting the dexterity you really want/need.

Personally, I don't care much for the medusa's wrath feat chain. Spending 3 rounds doing scorpion style -> gorgon's fist -> full attack with medusa's wrath doesn't do any more damage than attacking normally (because you didn't take a full attack on round two) and is dependent on two failed fortitude saves. I'll say it again: lots and lots of enemies have good fortitude saves (basically, anything that isn't a pure spellcaster, bard or rogue has good fort) so your +4 wis modifier (that's what it'll probably be most of the game, with a +2 headband) will not be that hard to save against. You are denying them actions by making them staggered, but personally I'd rather just have stunning fist. At least with that, you're still hitting them with full attacks if they make the saves.

Punishing kick, well, it isn't any better than stunning fist (I'd probably say it's worse), but since you gave up stunning fist for elemental fist I guess you could get some use out of it. You might as well just get stunning fist at that point though.

Another thing to remember is that while fast drinker allows you to drink as a swift action, you still need to get that alcohol from somewhere. Since you don't really need two hands free to fight unarmed I guess you could start combat with one tankard in your hand, but beyond that you'll either need move actions to get new ones, or you'll need to get some sort of magically refilling tankard, which is probably not possible in PFS. Personally I also think that the extra drunken ki from drinking during combat isn't worth that much. The stuff is mostly good for extra attacks (a d6 of damage on a single attack isn't that great), so having just a couple of drunken ki points per combat already gives you most of the advantage of drunken master.

So, my advice would be to consider whether fast drinking is really worth it. If you really want to keep it, drop your wisdom to no more than 14, and use the +2 racial to start with 16 con, which gives you the points you need for 13 strength, and gives you slightly better dex for part of the campaign (because you don't have to use an early level increase on con). Keep in mind that that con belt is costing you to hit and damage though (because it's not a dex belt). If you can live without fast drinking, drop your con to 14 instead.

As for your early feat advice question: out of dodge, combat reflexes and deflect arrows for your monk bonus feat, I think it's pretty much a wash for this character. All of those feats will occasionally (but not regularly) be useful. I'd probably take deflect arrows, just for the novelty value of it. Off course that would be hugely different with something like crane or panther style, in which case combat reflexes is clearly better. Some of those improved [combat maneuver] feats can also be fairly useful. Trip and grapple are both pretty useful on occasion, and you can get some decent mileage out of either without having to focus on it too much. That's probably what I would do with the monk bonus feats (instead of the medusa's wrath chain).


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Flask of endless sake, item from Jade Regent AP which us PFS legal. One problem solved at least.


One additional note: if you don't take the four winds archetype, keeping stunning fist, you can get some good mileage out of medusa's wrath, as you can set your opponents up for medusa's wrath with stunning fist, and you can skip scorpion style and gorgon's fist, as you don't need to meet the prerequisites for monk bonus feats.

Sovereign Court

It's been a while since my original post and my Monk was built a bit different than my original posts. I'm hitting level 8 later today (if my character survives) and I'd like some advice on the feats and such I should pickup from 8th level to 11th.

So far my build is:

Class – Drunken Master Monk
Race - Human

Traits -
* Adopted – Enlightened Warrior: Neutral Monk
* Fortified Drinker: +2 vs mind-affecting efforts for 1hour after drinking

Stats -
Str: 22 (+2 racial, +1 4th lvl, +2 belt)
Dex: 14
Con: 16 (+2 racial)
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Cha: 7

Skill points per lvl as Monk: 2 (I took the +2 to 2 stats racial trait)

1) Monk 1: Bab +0, Toughness (lvl 1), Dodge (Monk), +1hp
2) Monk 2: Bab +1, Imp Grapple (Monk), +1hp
3) Monk 3: Bab +2, Dragon Style (lvl 3), +1hp
4) Monk 4: Bab +3, +1 Str, +1hp
5) Monk 5: Bab +3, Dragon Ferocity (5), +1hp
6) Monk 6: Bab +4, Improved Trip (Monk), +1hp
7) Monk 7: Bab +5, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (lvl 7), +1hp

From here I'm going Ninja. My skill points are starved and my defenses are horrible. I'm going at least Ninja 2 for Shadow Clone, which I can use drunken ki to have active during every fight. I'm not sure if I should take Ninja to 3 or 4 though, or if I should go back to leveling Monk. Also I'm not sure what I should spend my feats on except for grabbing Forgotten Trick. Are there any combat feats I'm missing particularly?

8) Ninja 1: Bab +5, +1 Int
9) Ninja 2: Bab +6/+1, Extra Rogue Talent: Shadow Clone (lvl 9), Pressure Points (ninja)
10) Monk 8: Bab +7/+2,
11) Monk 9: Bab +7/+2, Undecided (Forgotten Trick?) (lvl 11)

If I go Ninja 4 I can grab Forgotten Trick with the Ninja Trick and have the feat free for something else. I'd also gain 8 extra Skill Points, which I'm starved atm as you can see below. I'd gain SA 2d6 at 3rd level Ninja and Uncanny Dodge at 4th.

8th level Monk is a big milestone though and 9th level adds an extra +10mspeed and Improved Evasion.

Skill Ranks at 7th level Monk -
Acrobatics: 7
Climb: 1
Perception: 3
Profession Barkeep: 1
Sense Motive: 1
Swim: 1


---------------------

I can only maintain 1 style and switching out of Dragon Style/Dragon Ferocity Combo would drop my 1st attack from 2x str to a regular 1x and additional attacks from 1.5x str to 1x also, greatly reducing my damage output. Not sure if spending a feat on Pummeling Style and Combat Style Master would be the best option.

Could really use some suggestions on how far to take Ninja (2, 3, or 4) and what feats I could really benefit from picking up.

Sovereign Court

*bump*

Scarab Sages

I think ninja is taking away more than you gain. Ninja is slowing access to flurry of blows growth, BAB growth & saves. 8th level is where you get the extra attack from flurry, another bonus to AC, and a damage die increase. It's also putting you in range of the 12th level boosts from a monk's robe.

Also, why aren't you using Qinggong as well? Drunken master has more than enough ki for barkskin.


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I'll throw in my build for perusal. This is for PFS.

Tengu with Claws
1Ranger1: Freebooter, Weapon Focus Claws
2R1Monk1: Master of Many Styles, Snake Style

This character will wear armor and use a shield. I could forgo the Claw Trait and work on the bite instead, since I can't claw with my shield arm, and then I could use a Bastard Sword sometimes, and that would be a solid choice. But I'm hoping this character will eventually acquire a Wand of Monstrous Physique and polymorph into a 4 armed Sahaugin with extra claw attacks. Meanwile, I have a method for developing all the natural attacks I can get. If I want to, I can drop the shield anyway, perhaps carrying a longbow for when the enemy is out of reach and clawing/biting/beating when they close in.

3R2M2: Snake Fang, Combat Reflexes

Crosswinds, MOMS totally lets you skip Snake Sidewind.

MOMS, Bonus Feat wrote:
Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path.

Meanwhile being able to use a shield secures those extra Attacks of Opportunity. She will have a Dex of 16, so I'm losing 1 attack/round for the shield, but I'm gaining 4.

4R1M2F1: Feral Combat Training, Claws
5R1M3F1: Monastic Legacy, Maneuver Training
6R2M3F1: Improved Natural Weapon Claws

So now the Claw attacks do 2d6, and I get to use my claws to make those Attacks of opportunity.

7R2M3F1Alchemist1: Improved Grapple, Mutagen

I disagree with Crosswinds assessment that Panther Claw and Snake Fang have no synergy in most cases, but they don't have synergy, here. I like the Dex Mutagen because I think the extra Attacks of Opportunity granted via Combat Reflexes leads to a higher DPR than the Strength Mutagen does. But you gain Dex at the Cost of Wisdom, and Panther Claw builds on Wisdom. And that's the opposite of synergy.

8R2M3F1A1White Haired Witch1
9R2M3F1A1W2: Final Embrace

Level 2 White Hair has Constrict, and that is the prerequisite for the Final Embrace Feat. With Final Embrace, the Hair, the Bite, The Claws, and the Monk Unarmed Strike all get Grab and Constrict. Constrict damage = the Claw Damage, and she will wear Armor Spikes and do Armor Spike damage with every hit. Her DPR will be outrageous.

10R2M3F2A1W2: Greater Grapple, Coordinated Maneuvers
11R2M3F2A1W2Cavalier1: Potion Glutton, Expert Captor

With Improved and Greater grapple increase the Grapple Mod, which helps with those Grabs and Constricts, of course. But if you have Greater Grapple and Expert Captor, you can Initiate a Grapple and Tie up your opponent in 1 round! Potion Glutton allows you to drink any potable, you know, like an Alchemal Extract of True Strike, as a Swift action. So on round 1 you can use a Wand of True Strike on yourself and close with your opponent. On round 2 you can Initiate a Grapple as a Standard Action, pop your Extract as a Swift Action, and Tie Up your opponent as a Move Action, both with a +20 from True Strike. And there are plenty of ways to pump up your Grapple Mod Quite High.

12R2M3F2A2W2C1: King Crab Tumor Famililiar

I have been wanting to try this. Have my Tumor Familiar take a Potion of Shield Other then meld with me. It would take half my damage, and it would enjoy Fast Healing 5.

Sovereign Court

Imbicatus wrote:

I think ninja is taking away more than you gain. Ninja is slowing access to flurry of blows growth, BAB growth & saves. 8th level is where you get the extra attack from flurry, another bonus to AC, and a damage die increase. It's also putting you in range of the 12th level boosts from a monk's robe.

Also, why aren't you using Qinggong as well? Drunken master has more than enough ki for barkskin.

I took 1 level of Ninja today so that's already set in stone and so far has felt like a good choice. Putting my 8th lvl stat point into Int and taking 1 level of Ninja I doubled my skill points from 14 to 28, capping my acrobatics, perception, and capping disable device which just became a class skill. I'm also going to raise Stealth up since I can move at half speed for 25ft while maintaining Stealth with no penalty.

I don't have Qinggong because I didn't own Ultimate Magic back then. I've bought the book since then but it's not possible to add it now anyways. My defenses suck and I've came to terms that fighting the AC war is just not practical. Going to Ninja 2 I can cast infinite Mirror Image of 1d4 clones, assuming I have the opportunity to refill my drunken ki pool. That's a 50-80% miss chance to avoid all damage and I can cast it again when needed. Heck, I can 5ft away, swift action 5ft with drunken master to get out of Full Attack range, then use a standard to recast Shadow Clone and then next round full attack. If I'm going to stay alive in the frontline I'm better off with Shadow Clone then trying to spend a ton of money on AC boosts.

Once I hit 2nd level Ninja, my ninja trick is going towards Shadow Clone but my 9th level feat is going towards Pressure Points. If I can land all 4 attacks (which I don't even use/have Power Attack, my dmg is 1d8+12 first attack and 1d8+9 for every additional attack already) then I'm able to do 4d6 sneak attack and either 4str or 4dex drain. Reducing their attack by -2 or their AC by -2, after multiple rounds if they aren't dead it's possible for me to get their str or dex to 0, removing them from the fight completely.

I agree it slows my FoB progression on getting additional attacks and reduces my FoB by -1 due to Ninja's 3/4 bab progression. So I'm thinking I should continue improving my Monk levels after I hit Ninja 2.

I'm not sure what feat to take at 11th level though. I'm thinking Forgotten Tricks would be best though? With a Ring of Ki Mastery and Drunken Ki Pool I would have access to a ton of temporary options. Thoughts?


Kysune,

I wanted to tell you I think your build is elegant, with Marid and Dragon Styles to compliment each other with Elemental Fist and Mantis Complimenting Dragon's Roar, making everyone entangled and shaken. The problem with Elemental Fist being only good for 1 attack/round isn't a problem for your character because you don't get Flurry of Blows, anyway.

I echo others' suggestions that since the MOMS build doesn't get Flurry anyway, you could be wearing armor and using a shield, and a 1 level dip in something like Cavalier or something just to get the armor proficiency feats might be worthwhile.

Mantis Wisdom is an interesting choice, since with Dragon's Roar, you seem to be interested in using your Stunning Fist not for Stunning, but for making groups of opponents shaken. But Mantis Wisdom diversifies your options. Straight up Stunning 1 target sometimes makes a lot more sense then Shak[en]ing several.

This would be a bad suggestion for this build, but I've always been intrigued by Monkey Shines, maybe a Mantis/Monkey combo. The idea of entering an opponent's square seems super cool, but I'm not quite sure how to use that.

A build like yours might also be a good candidate for those Scorpion Style, Gorgon's Fist, Cockatrice Strike Feats. Also it might be cool to find a way to incorporate some of those Tiger Style Feats. Both of those Feat Trees stem from single, devastating strikes rather than a hail of small strikes, which is what you really want when facing creatures with DR. I've seen Tiger/Dragon builds. They seem to work together. From a roleplaying standpoint, Marid/Tiger Style is an easy sell: Siberian Tiger Kung Fu.


Crosswind wrote:

Hey, few things.

1.) I tend to think crushing blow is sort of lousy. It's a full round action, plus a stunning fist attempt, and you have to both hit and have them fail a not-very-difficult save in order to achieve a B/B+ level result (-3 to -4 AC).

2.) Sacred Mountain monk isn't a great choice. Evasion is incredibly better than Toughness and +1 Natural Armor. Plus, you could go Quinggong monk instead, trade off slow fall and pick up a giant AC buff in Barkskin

3.) Unarmed fighter just to get Marid Coldsnap earlier and because you're a bit feat-tight might be premature.

Suggest this progression:

1) Drunken Master/Master of Many Styles/Quinggong 1: Bab +0, Elemental Fist (MoMS style), Dodge
2) Monk 2 Bab +1, Marid Style(MoMS style)
3) Monk 3: Bab +2, Dragon Style (lvl 3)
4) Monk 4: Bab +3, +1 Str
5) Monk 5: Bab +3, Crane Style (lvl 5)
6) Monk 6: Bab +4, Marid Spirit (MoMS Style)
7) Monk 7: Bab +5, Crane Wing (Level 7)
8) Monk 8: Bab +6/+1, +1 Con
9) Monk 9: Bab +7/+2, Dragon Ferocity (Level 9)
10) Monk 10: Bab +7/+2, Marid Coldsnap (MoMS style)
11) Monk 11: Bab +8/+3, Crane Riposte (lvl 11)
12) Monk 12: Bab +9/+4, +1 Str

-----

Basic argument: Mantis style isn't that awesome. It gives a marginal increase to your stunning fist hit chance and DC (10% chance, per hit, to cause some effect).

Crane Style, however, is amazing. With crane riposte, you can trade 1 AB for 4 AC (...totally. Worth. It.) and auto-deflect an attack. It shores up your defenses way more than anything else would, while not costing you much on the offensive end.

Take Dragon Ferocity at 9, because it does very little for you until you get a second attack.

-Cross (You don't have the spare feats to do the drinker feats, nor the stat points)

I like your Quinggong Drunken Master. Lots of Ki combined with lots of extra uses.

Mantis Style and Dragon's Roar gives Kyune extra Stunning Fists and another use for Stunning Fist. Thats seems like a legit thing to do in a build to me.

Sacred Mountain is fine. It seems mostly defensive, but so you your Crane Style Feats. To each his own.

A minor point, but the level in Unarmed Fighter wasn't to get Marid Coldsnap, but rather to get Mantis Style. Only the first Feat in any Style Feat Tree is technically a Style Feat, and only that first one can be taken as the Unarmed Fighter's Bonus Style Feat.

Your recommendation that you wait for multiple attacks to get Dragon Ferocity is curious considering that this build is not about multiple attacks. This build is about single, big attacks. Elemental Fist combined with Stunning Fist that also Entangles. Remember Elemental Fist only works for 1 attack, not for 1 round.

This build would benefit--if there were enough levels to cram all this goodness in--from other 1 punch feats like Tiger Claw and those Scorpion Style Feats, Scorpion Style, Gorgon's Fist, Medusa's Wrath, Maybe even Cockatrice Strike. Another group to look at are the Vitals Strike feats and Power Attack, especially when combined with your Quinggong True Strike.

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