Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Those who know me, know that my interests lie with community initiatives rather than individual guilds/CC's/settlements/kingdoms/etc. Partly, this comes from having a care for new players who don't yet have a "home", but also for those who choose to stay unaffiliated...or as I prefer to see it...affiliated with everyone. Some may say that I'm simply choosing not to choose, but the very act of choosing includes some degree of exclusion - all the ones you didn't choose - and when the initiatives I put my energies into are aimed at helping network the community, both IC and OOC, exclusion is something I try to avoid.
In the spirit of community networking, here I am again, offering another idea for how various individuals and groups can hopefully pool their creative resources for the wider enjoyment of those who would like to participate. This is not a program or the beginning of a collection of names (a la The Guide Program or Playing Extras), but merely a suggestion to the current established groups and those yet made.
Having run many events (single guild to open server) and RP plots/story arcs/quests/etc. in other games, one thing that I know truly helps facilitate player generated content is a good contact list. Whether you're trying to coordinate a plot that might need to involve another guild or your planning a shard-wide public market, knowing who to contact in a guild/group for such an event is crucial. After all, none of these activities are possible if no one participates. Now I know that many groups already plan to have their own event coordinators, RP managers, etc., so the idea of having someone in your guild focus on these activities is not new, but making certain that the community knows you have such a person - and more importantly - that you make their identity known for community contact, especially by other groups' event/RP managers, may be.
So the suggestion is simply this - that as groups plan for all the other important roles within their PFO guild/CC/settlement/kingdoms (military leaders, merchants, master craftsmen, etc.), consider choosing at least one event/RP manager to facilitate not only your own group's fun, but to be that contact for other groups' event/RP managers. In a game where we will be the content, I have learned from past sandbox games, that your group benefits greatly from having at least one creative, dedicated event/RP manager on board. But going a giant step further, outside the confines of your own group...having each group's event/RP manager networked across the game with one another, crafting events and plots that further facilitate player interaction - this is when the whole community benefits from what these individuals can do.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think the key to getting this right is specifically to NOT have a separate player in charge of guild/settlement Roleplay. That function must be integrated with the diplomat branch, the same one that brokers deals with non rp guilds/settlements. Conversely, guild to guild RP should always be an extension of actual in game diplomacy
The moment you separate what is RP from what is actually happening in the game is the moment you lose. I think over time you fine people will realize that this message is my prerogative for PFO. I guarantee 100%, RP will not flourish in this game on the strength of set piece roleplay. It will only work if it is properly peppered into the meta world dynamics of what is considered "the game".
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
First, all I'm advocating here is that while groups are thinking of organizing all the other parts of their guilds and filling all the important roles, that they look within their membership for people who like to generate these sorts of activities and that they identify these people not only to their own membership, but to their counterparts in other guilds as well. I'm in no way advocating that only these certain people should somehow control the RP on the server. Perhaps the word "manager" gave that impression. I could have used "event/RP contact person" - contact person...not boss. I'm only suggesting that groups identify these people, because in a world where we will make the content, I believe their creativity will be as valued a commodity as anything you dig up, cut down, build, shoot, etc. To have such people linked throughout the game, working to help build that content, is what will help to keep the game fresh.
I hope that clarifies whatever may have been potentially misrepresented.
As to what seem to be some of your concerns - nowhere am I advocating a separation of RP from the rest of the "nuts and bolts" of the game. Nowhere would I wish to see RP become it's own separate activity, either from the rest of the game, or from those players who don't RP. I've been in too many games where RPers became an elitist seeming little band, shunning non-RPers and only RPing with their own small circle of friends. The end result is almost always detrimental to the reputation of RPers in general. Finally, such behind-the-scenes work between event/RP managers might need to consider diplomatic issues, though I suspect most of their work will be OOC, as players (and hopefully above whatever the current relations of their two guilds might be). I do not see the need to necessarily link the two, or make RP an extension of diplomacy. If that is not what you meant, I'm always eager to have my misunderstandings corrected.
One last minor clarification - when I use the term "event" I am most often referring to one-shot occurrences (e.g. a player-run open market, festivals, skill competitions, actual auctions, etc.). Though participation in these might be regionalized in PFO due to alignment, settlement politics, etc., they tend to be open to whomever wishes to take part.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Another thought I forgot to add, and this one from past experience in a sandbox game (UO). Given that we have had a whole generation of MMO players grow up knowing predominantly theme park style games where the content (events, dungeons, story, etc.) was provided for them, they may find it a more difficult transition to a game where the game makers aren't hand feeding them their entertainment. Though I am certain we'll have enough in the regular nuts and bolts of the game to keep people interested for a while, I've seen in past sandboxes far too many players grow tired of the usual crafting, guild battling, and mob killing - after a couple years, people not used to making their own fun can begin to grow bored. This is the time when long-haul guilds rise to the top, territories become established, the usual guild battles grow stale, and all the fun corners of the sandbox (figuratively and literally) have been explored...this will be when the creative work of event/RP managers is most needed. Of course, I would rather see them doing their good work starting day 1, but EE will be lasting 18 months, so we have time.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I do not see the need to necessarily link the two, or make RP an extension of diplomacy. If that is not what you meant, I'm always eager to have my misunderstandings corrected.
That is what I meant and while it sounds a bit anathema to RP'ers I am beyond convinced that it's the only way it is ever going to work. For RP to flourish it has to be seen as added value to the success of a guild. It has to make the guild better and stronger. It has to give the guild an advantage or it will never be taken seriously and will forever be banished to taverns and set pieces in safe havens.
When you think about the elements that make a guild strong in this type of game, there are 3 roles that matter:
1. Crafter/builder/market manipulator
2. warrior/pvp'er
3. Diplomacy & recruitment
If you are not actively helping your guild in one of these areas you are basically wasting their time. That is a straight reality of MMO's and let's face it, even at the Pnp gaming table if your bard is useless in a fight or at negotiating then nobody cares about that cool poem you wrote.
So of those 3 roles, RP clearly belongs in #3. RP's role in sand box MMO's is as a tool to make more players want to negotiate, join and interact with your guild because it's more "fun". Because at the end of the day that's what a guild sells and is its most precious commodity: FUN.
I'm not disagreeing with you Hobs, I think your about 90% to where I'm saying we have to go and your clearly a class A RP community leader. The type needed to make this work.
But if it's going to work I firmly believe that every RP'er that walks through the door needs a firm reality slap to the face. We are here to play the game, not live in every Rp'ers fantasy land version of the game.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...if your bard is useless in a fight or at negotiating then nobody cares about that cool poem you wrote.
Unless your GM happens to be an English Literature professor who prefers encouraging players to fight only occasionally, but play always. Awarding XP for poems, diaries, artwork, and role-playing your character well is a marvellous incentive to get players to stop thinking the entire play experience every week is about "what are we going to kill this time?".
Damned hard to replicate those days in an on-line game, but it's so nice to see people making any attempt at all to look for game-rewards coming from unusual directions. I'm not saying I disagree with your main point, as much as I'd like to be able to; the game just feels pretty stark and lacking my sort of fun when measured only on your three lines, unfortunately.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'd offer that there is also 'role' for the guy or gal who keeps people engaged, who keeps track of who is doing what and helps focus group efforts (this might just be agreeing with avari3). It doesn't have to be an official leader role, but might be an unofficial leader/facilitator role. That person can be helping the group in areas 1. & 2., depending on what's going on.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Thank you for the compliment. 90% sounds pretty good. :)
However, I'll still have to humbly disagree, at least in part. I'm very realistic about what most people will spend the majority of their time doing, and what they will view as a "productive" expenditure during that game time. Certainly, people will spend the majority of their time building skills, harvesting, crafting, strengthening their settlement, etc., and if you don't, there is the possibility you could fall behind your competitors. But your description of what will matter in the game sounds a bit too much like "here's the way you need to play to win and if you don't do it this way, you're falling behind"...to the point that we won't have time for anything else but a perpetual grind in preparation for constant attack.
By your definition, RP could be said to be extraneous in any game that's goal is not strictly RP. No MMO I've ever played required RP to be successful in the way you describe, so in that sense, you are right. And yet, RP has been important enough to a large enough number of players that nearly every game has produced an RP shard/server...and when the company didn't, the players picked one for themselves.
True, in games where grinding = experience gain, many people who might have RPed were too busy frantically chasing the next level. Given the crafting and skill system PFO plans to employ, players will have far more time on their hands to explore other equally meaningful and enjoyable activities. My hope is that they learn to RP while doing any of these things. To me, RP isn't something you decide to make time for...it's something you do while you do everything else.
Perhaps this is where we agree...the bolded portion above...that RP and practical game play need to be better integrated than often done in past games.
As for actual planned events (which might be rated as a waste of important game time by some), I never had a problem filling stalls for my player markets, nor drawing customers, so though an activity might be put on by RPers and viewed as a RP activity, it can be both meaningful and productive to all styles of players.
And thank you for presenting your argument in an equally productive fashion, even when you seem to have such a passionate opinion. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Unless your GM happens to be an English Literature professor who prefers encouraging players to fight only occasionally, but play always. Awarding XP for poems, diaries, artwork, and role-playing your character well is a marvellous incentive to get players to stop thinking the entire play experience every week is about "what are we going to kill this time?".
Where do I sign up?!
On point: Hobs, bravo, another really useful thread. Obviously you already know this, but for everone else, I'm one of the RP officers for Pax Aeternum - although contacting any Paxian would be fine; we just try to spread the administrative work around a bit. Looking forward to working cross-guild with other roleplayers. And granted, we're still a year out from EE, but I hope we can start planning some EE community RP events when we get a bit closer to launch day.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...I am beyond convinced that it's the only way it is ever going to work...It has to make the guild better and stronger...there are 3 roles that matter...That is a straight reality of MMO's...We are here to play the game, not live in every Rp'ers fantasy land version of the game.
It is wonderful that you know that every MMO is the game you wish to play, and the ONLY game you wish to play from now until doomsday. You have learned your lesson and now you will apply that one lesson to every game you join and no other kind of game exists for you.
I am of a different mind. Why aren't all these death machine guilds still playing the games they cut their teeth on? Because they killed those games.
If I wanted to play all those other games that work the way you are convinced they do then I would play those games, right. I do not. Every game I play it is me playing it, not a generic entity fitting himself into one of your 'useful' roles dependent on the esteem of the corporation of his guild.
Useful to what end? To 'winning', in whatever weird scale of values a corporate entity like a guild values?
No: the individual is paramount. The guild can go stuff itself if it thinks itself more important then the players who comprise it.
Yeah: I know how it works. I'm telling you what you should have figured out yourself: even when that 'winning mentality' does work it fails utterly.
The player is paramount: the guild is a convention. It is a crutch.
And yes, I fully recognize anyone who disagrees will utterly fail...at YOUR goal, YOUR game. But I could give a rat's scrawny ass about your game unless you step on my game. THAT is where PvP comes in. It is not the end-all be-all, it is an unfortunate last resort, just like war is the last resort of diplomacy. Because if it is not so then your PvP is utterly meaningless and without point. It is an endless grind with no mission. No depth. No soul. Nothing.
Some people think every game is the same game they left because they are completely familiar with the competitors from every other game. But it is not the game that is the same it is how everyone plays it that is the same. You and every other PvP enthusiast will quickly realize that yet once again, unless you manage to run off every other kind of player first you will be once again completely bored out of your gourd. And do you want to know why? It is because you could not adapt to the new game. You brought the one you were already bored with into it, set it up to play exactly like that other boring game, and then are completely baffled that if you keep doing the same thing and it fails you have to do something different this time for it to NOT fail.
What is the definition of insanity and why on earth do you want to do that yet again??
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thank you for the compliment. 90% sounds pretty good. :)
However, I'll still have to humbly disagree, at least in part. I'm very realistic about what most people will spend the majority of their time doing, and what they will view as a "productive" expenditure during that game time. Certainly, people will spend the majority of their time building skills, harvesting, crafting, strengthening their settlement, etc., and if you don't, there is the possibility you could fall behind your competitors. But your description of what will matter in the game sounds a bit too much like "here's the way you need to play to win and if you don't do it this way, you're falling behind"...to the point that we won't have time for anything else but a perpetual grind in preparation for constant attack.
Not necessaraly. People who play games certainly do so to have fun, and making relationships of all sorts, has a huge impact on the profitability etc... as well the skill training system etc... will lower the grinding, but there will of course be a high need for monster hunters etc... looking for a good score of loot, harvesters etc. There will almost certainly be times in which gathering resources will be at a below average rate. Those will be the time that people will find higher value in the social arts, making sure to have allies, assistance for when a huge harvesting oprotunity arises or an attack is impending etc...
Just like the real world. In business during the slower times, you'll find lots of executives, agents etc... doing things that on one aspect are a waste of company resources to stregnthen relationships. Companies taking different people out golfing, or to a fancy resteraunt or whatever to help solidify longterm business. If there are activities that are more enjoyable but less "reward" for the settlement, they will not be completely ignored by succesful organizations.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Unless your GM happens to be an English Literature professor who prefers encouraging players to fight only occasionally, but play always. Awarding XP for poems, diaries, artwork, and role-playing your character well is a marvellous incentive to get players to stop thinking the entire play experience every week is about "what are we going to kill this time?".
Damned hard to replicate those days in an on-line game, but it's so nice to see people making any attempt at all to look for game-rewards coming from unusual directions. I'm not saying I disagree with your main point, as much as I'd like to be able to; the game just feels pretty stark and lacking my sort of fun when measured only on your three lines, unfortunately.
You don't have to tell me bud. I was the type of DM who would bust out the dice 2 or 3 times per session.
However it's about time RP'ers learn from the past DECADE of total failure in the MMO environment (no need to get in a pissing contest over your particular small scale successes, we all had them at great cost and effort). Just like GW's wraps their head around why PvP has failed, we have to take an honest look at why RP has failed.
Reason #1 is we haven't been playing the game. In the example you gave there was a set of RP centric rules in place and the players play by those rules. It's the same in LARP or MUDs or anywhere. There are always rules in place to force the RP to be conduit to the objectives of the game.
If we go into another game committing the same mistakes as always we will fail again. IMO, the first mistake is designating "RP" wings of guilds to do fabricated "RP" things. Instead the RP'ers should be focusing on establishing themselves as ranking diplomats and recruiters for their settlements so that RP events can blossom naturally from important guild functions.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Onishi,
I'm not sure why you included that portion from my post. In the portion you quoted, I was merely acknowledging that the bulk of players will be playing "the game" much the way the game mechanics are designed for the game to be played (spending much of their time involved in skill gain, killing mobs, crafting, etc.). The real point of my position is that we need to find time for all the wonderful things you mention during the slower times (hopefully even during some of the busier times).
If you meant to point out that even when we're playing the game as expected that there's still time for RP and player made events, content, etc., that's my hope and thus the reason for the thread...to try to network people who like to provide that content.
So it struck me that you seem to be disagreeing with me ("Not necessarily..."), when your argument seems to actually supports my position. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
No: the individual is paramount. The guild can go stuff itself if it thinks itself more important then the players who comprise it.
Yeah this. This right here is the reason RP has failed so colossally. "Everbody is a special flower who can RP however they want".
NO!
In every game there is a set of rules and an objective. In every game that RP is present the RP must adhere to the objectives and rules of the game. This is a purely MMO phenomenon where people walk into a game with certain objectives and just pull other objectives out of their arses and deem them more important because "it's my story". You can't do that in a LARP game. You can't do that at the PnP table.
PFO will be a Kingmaker campaign style open PvP game. If you are rolpleaying that your RP sword makes you more important than the dude that's actually winning the game and owns a major settlement, you are RP'ing the WRONG way and it's high time the community comes to terms with that.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My hope is that they learn to RP while doing any of these things. To me, RP isn't something you decide to make time for...it's something you do while you do everything else.
Perhaps this is where we agree...the bolded portion above...that RP and practical game play need to be better integrated than often done in past games.
Of course this is where we agree. We love to RP and we want to be in character as much as possible. I understand this thread is about server wide goals for the RP community. We want to be organized with a plan from day 1 so that RP does not suffer the same fate it has in every other MMO.
I'm not saying I have all the answers. I am saying we have to start with a deep conversation about past failures and how we can avoid them.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm not talking about RP you dolt.
You are proposing that your system that worked so well to keep Shadowbane alive and Darkfall fun and interesting, or whatever other game you don't play anymore, is the One True way to play PFO and you're wrong.
Oh then I don't even know what the hell you are talking about. It's an RP thread.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...In every game there is a set of rules and an objective. In every game that RP is present the RP must adhere to the objectives and rules of the game. This is a purely MMO phenomenon where people walk into a game with certain objectives and just pull other objectives out of their arses and deem them more important because "it's my story". You can't do that in a LARP game. You can't do that at the PnP table.
Who is the game for? Who is deciding these people's objectives? Who is deciding what are win conditions? You?
PFO will be a Kingmaker campaign style open PvP game. If you are rolpleaying that your RP sword makes you more important than the dude that's actually winning the game and owns a major settlement, you are RP'ing the WRONG way and it's high time the community comes to terms with that.
Avari your 'One True Way to Play' magic sword does not make your estimation of what MY game will be more important than any other player.
Your One True Way to Play as an efficient death dealing engine of destruction where all the members of the settlement are mere cogs has ruined many a game and left them desolate.
War is not the objective, it is the last resort. It is on me to prepare against it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
If it is an RP thread why are you proposing that RP is irrelevant? You were going on about the Only way to play is as a PvP death machine, the ONLY way it can work, you said, is for everyone to transform themselves into doing things useful.
Efficiency to what end?
Yes I believe RP has become irrelevant and it needs to be made relevant within the context of the game that is being played. Redefine Rp's role from segmented "fun activity" that is disassociated from the game being played into something that is a useful function within the game world.
I don't think this about death machines, it bodes just as true for a neutral/merchant type guild who wants to RP.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Your One True Way to Play as an efficient death dealing engine of destruction where all the members of the settlement are mere cogs has ruined many a game and left them desolate.
War is not the objective, it is the last resort. It is on me to prepare against it.
Kingmaker style sandbox PvP game is Goblinworks description, not mine.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think we agree that RP cannot succeed as an afterthought tacked onto an environment. I think that is a design intent already averred by the developer.
By 'Kingmaker' I assume you intend the Paizo campaign. Although a way forward, how PvP can fit to RP, might also be intimated by another Kingmaker.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think we agree that RP cannot succeed as an afterthought tacked onto an environment.
Exactly. If we treat RP like "sauce on the side" that's all it will ever be. We have to drizzle it into the salad that is the game. IMO, the only way it will be accepted that way is if it is deemed an advantage to roleplay.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
However it's about time RP'ers learn from the past DECADE of total failure in the MMO environment (no need to get in a pissing contest over your particular small scale successes, we all had them at great cost and effort). Just like GW's wraps their head around why PvP has failed, we have to take an honest look at why RP has failed.
I'm not sure how you quantify "failed". I would very much like you to clarify this for me. To me, if the game's main mechanics and measurements for "winning" (max level, best gear, afford a house, corner the market, etc.) have nothing to do with RP, I'm not sure how RP can even be judged on it's success in the game. Role Players RP because they enjoy it, not because there's a measure for it in game or it helps them win. RP is an added layer to how Role Players interact with the game and one another. I've never considered it a game strategy, so I'm very unclear as to how it can "fail". If you're saying that to RP is a waste of time when you could be doing something seemingly more "constructive" by the game's mechanics/structure, I have two points:
1. Again, it would seem to be based on the notion that to "RP" means you're stepping out of the regular game play/activities and spending hours just RPing (e.g. chatting IC or what many used to call "tavern squatting"). If that's what RPers did with a large chunk of their game time, then yes, they might "fall behind" by your standard. As I've said above, I don't take time out to RP...I RP while I do everything else. But I don't think, say, a story arc running between two guilds (the byproduct of which is to strengthen OOC ties between players in both groups) would be a waste of time simply because there is no easily measurable in-game benefit (no ore was mined, no sales were made, etc.).
2. Activities like organizing a market where people can carry out real sales, commission items they need made, network with future customers/suppliers/guards/etc., sound like very worthwhile endeavors to me.
As for the "pissing contest over small scale successes," this seems rather bitter. I'm sorry if yours seemed to come at "great cost and effort". The events and activities we players used to create in UO were well worth the time, actually the hi-lights of our years playing the game, and what many players remember best when we reminisce about those days. And yet, hardly any of those activities and events could have been measured by what seems to be your terms of being either successful or failing.
If we go into another game committing the same mistakes as always we will fail again. IMO, the first mistake is designating "RP" wings of guilds to do fabricated "RP" things.
Again, this seems to be a difference between your experience with RP in a general population MMO and mine. I think there is a marked difference between identifying people in your midst who have such interests and skills and having them network between guilds to coordinate activities that will include RP elements, and having "wings of guilds" creating what you seem to be describing as RP activities separate from the regular game. If you are worried that I am advocating that we all get caught up in player made plots, distracting ourselves from the regular game to the point that we fail to notice some horde like Goon Swarm climbing over the battlements, that's not my intent. :)
Instead the RP'ers should be focusing on establishing themselves as ranking diplomats and recruiters for their settlements so that RP events can blossom naturally from important guild functions.
I don't see anything in my suggestion that would conflict with this if those same people I have described as event/RP managers wish to be ranking diplomats and recruiters. Most of the people in those position that I've met in the existing guilds (and I know many of them), are also RPers. However, I do not believe that everything associated with RP and RP events needs to always flow from a guild. Sure, in a game that will focus on settlement ownership/membership, I may be a bit of an anomaly, but a few creative people dedicated to such work can make a noticeable impact on a server, especially if they're working together.
Overall, I don't think we're that far apart. I just don't believe that every aspect of a player's game time needs to revolve around that which is only provided by, and measured against, game mechanics and developer provided activities. You seem to want player made content to be closely tied to what people would call the regular "game" - and so would I. However, I also believe that sometimes, the real game is the player content.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
PFO will be a Kingmaker campaign style open PvP game. If you are rolpleaying that your RP sword makes you more important than the dude that's actually winning the game and owns a major settlement, you are RP'ing the WRONG way and it's high time the community comes to terms with that.
Personally, I've never advocated RPing any power/item/ability that you can't back up with viable game mechanics unless all the people involved agree to RP that the power/item/ability happens - but even then, that's a rare case. To do otherwise is silly. Claiming your RP sword does something it can't to people who could care less about your RP sword doesn't get you very far.
I think we agree that RP cannot succeed as an afterthought tacked onto an environment.Exactly. If we treat RP like "sauce on the side" that's all it will ever be. We have to drizzle it into the salad that is the game. IMO, the only way it will be accepted that way is if it is deemed an advantage to roleplay.
All I'm suggesting in this thread is that we identify and connect our best drizzelers.
Now I'm hungry...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I gotta go Hobs but a couple quick answers and comments:
1. I am judging RP as failing pretty much by the quality of it. It's been a decade of "takes long pull of beer and bishes about his backstory" or "pretend this newbie junk sword is super duper magical". Don't get me wrong, storytelling has its part. But roleplaying things that have an actual impact on the game being played IS the correct way to RP.
2. You gave two examples that are exactly what needs to be the focus of the RP community in PFO. An actual RP market with valuable items being sold. A set piece RP session AS AN EXTENSION of in game diplomacy. Another one would be in character combat training. That's making the mundane events in the game more fun and that's where the focus has to be.
3. Let's make a distinction between what is the individual player's RP and the goals of the RP community as a whole for PFO. My focus right now is on the latter. Legitimizing RP as a function within the game mechanics creates a better environment for an RP wedding.
4. You mention Ultima Online, a 15 yr old game. I have to back that far to find my last great online RP experience as well.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think the idea of settlements and kingdoms and the political game should lend itself well to RP. If I am to be a noble or Andius seeks to be King there is reason enough to play a role even if we are not speaking in Shakespearean English. The diplomacy and restraints of economic and logistical necessity should serve to apply in-game real pressures to comport as RP regardless whether the Goons are on the march or not. The significance of reputation should mechanically affect the ability of a community to advance or fall into decline. The significance of alignment as well should enhance and promote ascendancy and decline of the various factions wrestling for the River Kingdoms. If we approach the game as nobles might, jockeying for alliances, making acquaintance and exchanging conversation then we should be well on the way toward realizing RP already.
And I think we are.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...jockeying for alliances...I'll need a pony.
I think, like me perhaps, you really could have this kind of pony. If I may presume to think we are in some slight way alike, then you may not be a controlling sort of character. Influence is much more subtle and elegant, don't you think?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Onishi,
I'm not sure why you included that portion from my post. In the portion you quoted, I was merely acknowledging that the bulk of players will be playing "the game" much the way the game mechanics are designed for the game to be played (spending much of their time involved in skill gain, killing mobs, crafting, etc.). The real point of my position is that we need to find time for all the wonderful things you mention during the slower times (hopefully even during some of the busier times).
If you meant to point out that even when we're playing the game as expected that there's still time for RP and player made events, content, etc., that's my hope and thus the reason for the thread...to try to network people who like to provide that content.
So it struck me that you seem to be disagreeing with me ("Not necessarily..."), when your argument seems to actually supports my position. :)
I wasn't just specifying that there can be downtime etc... for roleplaying, and doing things that are more or less purely social and not related to killing/crafting. I was actually describing that there are times in which that will "optimal" even by power gamer standards.
3 key components in PFO that give it more potential than most modern MMO's are,
1. Skill/XP grind is removed altogether.
2. Harvested resources + escalations will vary in availability. IE there may be days that your work is worth 5x more than average, and days it barely is worth your time even bothering to try.
3. Even the most advanced nation, is going to have high dependance on relationships with other nations near and far. Mithral supply dried up for miles, I hope you have a good relationship with the nations that have it, attack approaching, you probably hope your neighboring alliances are motivated to assist.
As a result, at least in my opinion. A settlement that sent 50 members to attend the neighboring cities wedding ceremony, may very well have a solid advantage over the settlement that focuses 24/7 on grinding the best loot.
So yeah to summerize, my point isn't that it is going to be possible, I'm saying in many ways, it may flat out be "optimal".
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I used to run community events in DDO. The devs sent me a PM after deleting my thread - they didn't like the name I'd chosen for the event.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I love role play. Many games lend themselves to role play, and many just do not. RPing play "can" be an extension of the metagame, but there are many times (most in my experience) where the role play has nothing to do with the guild itself, the game...just people who have had a character for years (either in an MMO or from an old TT campaign from the 70s) and they just want to fall into character.
I got to disagree with Avari on this one. RP doesn't have to be part of anything else. Anything. It can be an island and still be fun. Even people who could care less about the politics of the land, the PvP, the crafting, they can meet up in a tavern or inn and have a great couple of hours chatting and talking about things that obviously do not exist, but gives them pleasure to talk about.
Sure, RP can be woven into the bigger game, and that's a great way to get RPers involved in things they would normally stay away from. Let's face it, a lot of players will sign up for PFO and not realize how PvP heavy some elements will be. RP is a way to keep them in the River Kingdoms and add flavor to the world. They don't have to be a master crafter to add value to their guild ( or VC in this case). They don't have to be a big PvPer, nor an aristocratic diplomat. They can be there to lend support, chat with members, greet new players, have fun with people who enjoy their online company.
Spend a little time in Bree in LotRO...the Prancing Pony still has things going on, but the game content has now moved to Helm's Deep...far beyond the dreams of little hobbits and the starter zones. But the RPers are still there having a great time.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
After imagining I was arguing him when I was only arguing with my misconception of what Avari was saying I came to the conclusion that what he was talking about was integrating the RP significance of inter-settlement relationships, and how the citizens of those settlements relate with one another as infrastructure of the game design rather than trying to eliminate such RP occasions as tavern chats.
Nobody will eliminate such lighter, simpler things but his point was, and I agree, that that sort of RP will not be enough by itself to survive serious conflict.
RP has to have a robust support system built into the game. How two settlements make common cause should require the leadership of the settlements to actually talk and find common cause against external competing interests, much the same as two small countries would in the real world.
RP isn't about Elizabethan English but about relationships and roles.
Settlement politics and military should be modeled after what we find in reality, and their economic support systems as well.
These systems still leave room for guys at the bar playing darts, but when the barbarians invade and vast areas are left in ruins there will have to be something traditional that holds the social pattern and promotes resurgence of those lighter moments, providing hope rather than accentuating despair, inviting players to begin again rather than giving up on the game.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So...if that is the 'what' we wish to propose we should probably give them an idea of the 'how', a bit stickier question I am thinking.
So what I came up with is that when a settlement reaches a given development index value certain features open for the leadership of that settlement.
One such feature should perhaps be the ability to designate an emissary, hopefully a notable personage, invested with an in-game title such as 'Emissary of Bigtown' for the time that the settlement shall deem to represent the leadership to other powers, and protected by diplomatic immunity, but potentially subject to assassination.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If I may continue, the RP is enforced by the game mechanics when only emissaries may initiate a treaty process... and there could be a wide array of treaty types for them to negotiate. Free trade lowering tariffs between the two (requires a way for the game to recognize economically favored status), mutual protection agreements, border patrol and highway patrols to reduce predations on the merchants, all the way up to forming any of several forms of union, and ultimately sovereignty without requiring the use of arms.
Naturally the emissary is unlikely to empowered to actually sign any treaty: that is reserved for the settlement leadership. But the title is a sure proof that this character does indeed represent who it says he represents, and that there is therefore no deception involved that the settlement he or she represents does not intend. Usually.
Similar mechanics could be built into military systems and crafting guilds.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Other systems that could lend themselves to this sort of RP infrastructure might include an official who is able to post a bounty on a criminal: who does the victim turn to that he can trust other than an authority like a sheriff?
Further, if a character is posting a bond, making a deposit for escrow, or offering a contract there should be an official administrator.
The list could go on, but here is the question: why would a character choose to serve his settlement like that?
Pay? Advantage? Power? Are such characters susceptible to bribery and other forms of corruption? Might serving a term in such an office return a profit both in money and in trainable skills?
Someone wishing to be able to use militant formations in combat might well need to serve as an officer of the guard. Someone wishing to hold higher office might have to serve a time as an administrator. Someone wishing to be a champion might need to serve as a sheriff for a term.
There are ways to build an RP infrastructure. I feel certain I have only begun to scratch the surface.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Those are excellent lines of thought Being. As far as treaties go, I still want to know how GW's plans on compromising the need for settlements to guard themselves with red is dead policies and the supposedly important game feature of trading between settlements.
Another niche for RP'ers could come in the "spirit" index of a settlement. They have said that there will be leadership tied to the buildings, including the Inn and that the Inn has functions that somewhat foster RP. So that's another place within guild power structure that the RP'ers need to target. I think if we are going to crowdforge some type of RP "system" that benefits a settlement it would be right there.
I think the moral to the whole story and as it pertains to the thread is: If you want to be an RP community leader/event planner; go help your settlement succeed and obtain in-game power and while doing so climb the ladder of leadership within that guild with a focus on the positions that can lend themselves to fostering RP.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As far as treaties go, I still want to know how GW's plans on compromising the need for settlements to guard themselves with red is dead policies and the supposedly important game feature of trading between settlements.
I was thinking about this the other day: how does the game differentiate between a not blue shoot it (NBSI) policy and a not red don't shoot (NRDS) policy.
The NRDS policy requires that the game allow the settlement to identify individuals, companies, and other settlements as red/enemy. I *assume* we'll have this ability, and the rest of this post depends on that assumption. Once identified, those actors can be flagged as trespasser/criminal when they enter the settlement's controlled areas, so they are legal flagged targets. In neutral or uncontrolled areas, those enemy actors might not be easily identifiable. But flagging a lot of names as red/enemy takes time, and figuring when someone comes off the red list requires organization and procedures, etc. It takes some time and can be bypassed by a character newly rolled to be an infiltrator.
The NBSI policy is simpler - settlement members just attack everyone not belonging to the settlement or its allies. However - and this is not minor - under the current flag system, if the blue agent attacks an unflagged not-blue, the blue agent takes the rep and evil hits. If assault and murder are crimes in that area, then there is also a chaos hit and the settlement members will be flagged as criminals for the attacks.
So NBSI settlement needs to either make assault/murder not a crime (to avoid a chaos shift of its members), or it needs to ignore the criminal flag of its members (if it doesn't care about the chaos shift). Either way, NBSI attacks on unflagged targets will result in rep and evil shifts.
Depending on how it is implemented, NBSI might be a simple choice, but one that is used only by low rep evil settlements. Which might be good, if GW wants to dissuade us from using NBSI. If GW wants to encourage NBSI, then They can provide an easy checkblock on settlement laws that says: [ ] any non-allied characters are treated as criminal trespassers.
(how this is tied to role-play this follows...)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When a settlement puts somebody on the red/enemy/exile list, it probably happens instantly.
If GW wants to encourage interaction and minor role play, maybe They could encourage and reward the actually delivery of warnings. For example, when a settlement puts the No-Good company from Schweinfurt on their criminal trespass list, maybe there should be the ability to create "notices" at some cost. These notices might be posted to message boards or otherwise distributed to let people outside of town know that the No-Goods are now bad guys. It also might create a mission for somebody to ride to Schweinfurt and present the message to the authorities there. Such posting and delivering of messages might be rewarded with lawful shifts, for the messenger or for the settlement itself.
I'd suggest a Herald or Diplomat flag, for someone carrying diplomatic messages. Attacking a herald might be heinous, or might bring double chaos losses. It might also be a casus belli, a legitimate grievance that allows a lawful nation to declare war.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think it would work best if the default NPC guard reaction was NRDS but settlement leadership can specify a red list.
NRDS would be encouraged if the income of the city is tied to its desirability to citizens both new and old.
I was thinking about the idea of rewarding official settlement roles that would otherwise go unfilled. If a settlement's income is 100% and increases with trade, tax, and by gaining citizens then settlement leadership might get a comprehensive UI where they can reserve a set quantity for construction, maintenance, and contractual obligations and of the remainder set percentages for such things as 'War Chest' but also for salaries and department budgets.
Since it is a percentage of settlement income then the more successful the city grows the more the salary amounts to.
Departments (Constable, Guard Barracks, Warehousing) could in turn have their own UI for allocating assets (Ranger Patrol) and pay them in turn.
Suddenly you have all kinds of reasons for realistic roleplay keying off the settlements and relationships between settlements, and a means by which one settlement might entice the notable figures of a rival.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
No of course not, but settlements do form a starting point for things that might be mechanically provided for. As I intend to be a Druidic character one day I should hope not all RP will be tied to settlements. Yet Avari3 had a thought I felt worth our while, so I ran with the ball when I finally recovered my fumble.
What are your further thoughts, Hobs?