| 32 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It struck me that if a Magus can't get an extra attack from Haste while using Spell Combat then maybe a creature with Pounce can't get an extra attack from Haste when pouncing. Pounce says that you can make a "full attack" at the end of a charge, but I'm not sure if that is functionally the same as using the full attack action. I'm not sure, so I figured that I might as well ask...
When pouncing can you get an extra attack from Haste?
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From the FAQ:
Pounce: If have this ability (page 302), can I make iterative attacks with weapons as part of my full attack?
Any melee attack sequence you can perform as a full attack is allowed as part of the charge-pounce-full attack. For example, a barbarian with the greater beast totem rage power gains the pounce universal monster ability and could make iterative attacks with manufactured melee weapons as part of her charge-pounce-full attack.
—Sean K Reynolds, 02/21/12
To me, this heavily suggest that haste remain in effect, given that (while the charge is not a full-attack attack) the ability refers to it as a full attack (unlike spell combat).
Pounce (Ex)
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Format: pounce; Location: Special Attacks.
It doesn't say full attack action though and that seems to be the key language that matters according to the development team.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
You are not making a full attack action therefore you shouldn't get a haste attack.
It doesn't say full attack action though and that seems to be the key language that matters according to the development team.
It does say Full Attack however, a term that is used interchangeably with a full attack action.
Spell combat never refers to a full attack (although the FAQ do), which make it impossible to make a direct comparison to pounce.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You do, no reason not to. A spell combat isn't a full attack action, but a pounce is a full attack after a charge.(though tbh, I feel like spell combat's ruling has nothing to do with logic, but that's not here or there.)
Pounce is a charge action, not a full-attack action.
No extra attack from Haste.
Makes sense to me.
Yep! Haste allows an extra attack when you make a full attack (action is used interchangeably). Pounce allows you to make a full attack at the end of a charge, ergo, extra attack.
I'm not asking this question frivolously. I've seen multiple DMs over the years challenge whether you should get an extra attack from Haste during a pounce. After reading the Pounce ability we've always decided that it should work based on the words "full attack", but the word "action" is missing, and Charge is its own action, so it really does seem less than perfectly clear.
The rules for Pounce say, "When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)." Haste, on the other hand, says, "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon."
Fast Bombs explicitly works with Haste via FAQ, and the rules for Fast Bombs say, "This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon." That's missing the work "action" just like Pounce is. Since it works I guess Pounce should too. Folks can't seem to agree or point to previous rulings though, so I'm assuming that the jury is hung. I've hit the FAQ button.
I've hit the FAQ button.
Careful, they might rule martials can't have nice things.
I think with the ruling on spell combat you would not get the extra haste attack when using pounce as per the spell combat ruling you have to take the full attack action and pounce is a charge. The fast bombs thing works because the language in the ability specifically says it works just like making a ranged attack which is a full attack action.
BiggDawg - Fast Bombs actually says that it functions "just like a full attack", not like a "just like a full attack action". Pounce says that you can make "a full attack", so the wording is pretty similar if you accept that a "full attack" is "just like a full attack".
So when is a full attack a full attack and why is it making all of my attacks isn't a full attack making it all of my attacks except that one... Words are weird.
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I've hit the FAQ button.Careful, they might rule martials can't have nice things.
Good!
If they're going to backdoor nerf my precious magus, then I want everyone to suffer!
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Yep! Haste allows an extra attack when you make a full attack (action is used interchangeably). Pounce allows you to make a full attack at the end of a charge, ergo, extra attack.
Full attack is not interchangeable with full attack action. The term full attack is used in the latest Spell Combat FAQ, while still denying Spell Combat the extra attack from Haste.
yeah i think they should change haste !!
change it to an aditional attack when you can do at leased 1 attack in that round!
and remove the bonus to AC or atk
So when is a full attack a full attack and why is it making all of my attacks isn't a full attack making it all of my attacks except that one... Words are weird.
When you're taking a full round to make all your attacks.
When you're taking a full round to make all your attacks and do something else.
So when is a full attack a full attack and why is it making all of my attacks isn't a full attack making it all of my attacks except that one... Words are weird.When you're taking a full round to make all your attacks.
When you're taking a full round to make all your attacks and do something else.
Spell combat tells me I make all of my attacks but its still not a full attack. Its all my attacks, except that one from haste. Which was what I was joking about with my nonsense post. I do know the definitions. Charge itself is a full round action, and pounce modifies it so you perform a full attack. However because of the way 'actions' work, you can't normally perform something that requires an attack action at the end of a charge such as vital strike. Personally I would rather things be simpler and you just could and it wouldn't be up for debate, because I'm not a big fan of taking things away from martial combat styles.
Spell combat tells me I make all of my attacks but its still not a full attack. Its all my attacks, except that one from haste. Which was what I was joking about with my nonsense post. I do know the definitions. Charge itself is a full round action, and pounce modifies it so you perform a full attack. However because of the way 'actions' work, you can't normally perform something that requires an attack action at the end of a charge such as vital strike. Personally I would rather things be simpler and you just could and it wouldn't be up for debate, because I'm not a big fan of taking things away from martial combat styles.So when is a full attack a full attack and why is it making all of my attacks isn't a full attack making it all of my attacks except that one... Words are weird.When you're taking a full round to make all your attacks.
When you're taking a full round to make all your attacks and do something else.
Well I'm not one to say martials are underpowered but I don't it would be broken to allow the extra attack (on pounce or spell combat), I just see the extra attack from haste as only triggering when focused solely on attacking.
I thought this was just a nonsense post in response to the FAQ about Spell Combat, but after taking the time to read up on things now I think I see the point of view. Also, considering this ruling:
If a creature with pounce is under a slow effect, and it charges, does it still get its full attack from pounce?
According to the rules as written, pounce would allow the creature its full attack, despite the slow effect. (This happens because there is no "partial charge" action in the Pathfinder RPG.)
I could see it being fair. Pounce doesn't get penalized by slow and pounce doesn't get any benefit from haste, in both cases the creature still gets its full attack. It has appealing symmetry to me, even though I don't think that is the way they mean it to work. I don't know if this is quite worth the design team taking the time to FAQ, but it's certainly less clear and obvious than I thought coming into this thread so I'll go ahead.
There is not such thing as a "charge action". Charge is a special use of a full round action. Pounce allows you to make a full attack, while charging which is sometimes called a full attack action. In actuality there is no "full attack action". A full attack is a use of a full round action. That is why haste works with pounce.
The official actions are
Full round
standard
move
swift
free
immediate
Non actions and not an action are not really actions. They refer to things that dont take an action at all.
edit:I am half sleep so if I forgot an action then add it to the list. Not every action is one of the official actions. Attack actions as an example are not their own action, but a type of standard action..
Yep! Haste allows an extra attack when you make a full attack (action is used interchangeably).
So, um, remind me: is "action" also used interchangeably for "Attack Action" vs any old "attack"?
There is not such thing as a "charge action". Charge is a special use of a full round action.
Full Round, et al, are explicitly described as TYPES of actions at the beginning of the Action section of the Combat chapter, not as names of specific actions. One never sees "take THE full round action", "take THE standard action", etc, athough a specifically named action is referred to as "take THE full attack action", etc. The Action section goes to describe many of the named actions that appear on the Actions in Combat Table (organized by Action Type headings), starting with "Standard Actions" (plural, not just different usages of a singular Standard Action). In some cases specifically named actions can be classified as different action types depending on the situation, yet they remain the same named action (Mobile Fighter Full Attack Action is re-classed as Standard Action, for example).
What I mean is that the official actions are the ones that exist and anything you do falls under those so taking a full attack action is the same as a full attack which is actually a full round action.
Regarding the interaction of Pounce and Slow, we recently had a dire tiger get hit with Frigid Touch. This made him staggered, but upon a quick review of the rules we decided that wouldn't stop him from using Pounce since you can Charge as a standard action if you're restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Seeing a FAQ ruling which supports our "on the fly" ruling at the game is interesting since it seems like a clear case of getting extra attacks without using a full round action (unless Pounce basically gives you a "free" full attack action at the end of your Charge, which maybe it does...). Luckily for my PC, the dire tiger wasn't Hasted.
There was a FAQ that covered exactly that:
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9quy
Pounce and Slow: If a creature with pounce is under a slow effect, and it charges, does it still get its full attack from pounce?
According to the rules as written, pounce would allow the creature its full attack, despite the slow effect.
(This happens because there is no "partial charge" action in the Pathfinder RPG.)
There isn't a separate partial charge action in the game, charge just has a limitation if you can only take a standard action.
Pounce doesn't say, "if you can only take a standard action on your turn, you cannot use pounce," therefore it always acts like a full pounce, even if you're limited to a standard action. None of us like that it works that way, but that's how the rules fit together.
BiggDawg - Fast Bombs actually says that it functions "just like a full attack", not like a "just like a full attack action". Pounce says that you can make "a full attack", so the wording is pretty similar if you accept that a "full attack" is "just like a full attack".
"Fast bombs: An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon. An alchemist must be at least 8th level before selecting this discovery."
Bold emphasis is mine. After reading spell combat again I think you are right Devilkiller and Pounce and Haste should work together and the Spell Combat ruling has no effect.
The Fast Bombs ability explicitly calls them a full-round action and that they function just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon. The only way you can full-attack with a ranged weapon is to take the full-attack action. Pounce is a type of charge which is a distinct separate action from the full-attack action, but it does explicitly say that it allows a full-attack. The wording on the Spell Combat ability never mentions full-attack at all which is the key to why haste doesn't work with it. Spell Combat creates a new type of full round action which is distinct from Full-Attack, like Charge is, but Spell Combat never links itself back to Full-Attack, like Pounce does, and instead states that you make your weapon attacks.
There is no such thing as a Full-Attack Action, the action you take is Full-Attack. In a computer programming type scenario if you said I take a Full-Attack Action it wouldn't understand because in the book under the full round action section there is Full-Attack, not Full-Attack Action. This fact would lead me to believe that anything that says it is a Full-Attack is the Full-Attack Action because there is no Full-Attack Action only Full-Attack under the full round action section. So therefore when Pounce says you can take a Full-Attack it is referring to the Full-Attack which is a type of full round action. When the book states take the Full-Attack Action it is a shorter way of saying take a Full-Attack which is a type of action. It is a short hand to save space.
Thanks Devilkiller for helping set me straight before I inflicted this ruling on my unsuspecting players!
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There is not such thing as a "charge action". Charge is a special use of a full round action. Pounce allows you to make a full attack, while charging which is sometimes called a full attack action. In actuality there is no "full attack action". A full attack is a use of a full round action. That is why haste works with pounce.
The official actions are
Full round
standard
move
swift
free
immediateNon actions and not an action are not really actions. They refer to things that dont take an action at all.
edit:I am half sleep so if I forgot an action then add it to the list. Not every action is one of the official actions. Attack actions as an example are not their own action, but a type of standard action..
Obviously the list of actions has sub-categoties.
Spell combat, a full round action that allows all iterative attacks, is defined by FAQ as something distinct from a full attack action.
How this new action interacts with core rules written prior to the FAQ is undefined.
Spell combat, a full round action that allows all iterative attacks, is defined by FAQ as something distinct from a full attack action.
Spell combat is weird, it says 'all of your attacks' but never says its a full attack, which means you get all of your attacks 'except that one'. It was a stealth nerf really.
Pounce lets you take full attack instead of one attack at end of the charge.
Haste lets you get additional attack if you full attacking.
Full attack is full-round action, pounce lets you do it without spending full round action on it, haste does not say anything about need of full-round action so i dont see any problem.
Spell combat is completely another full-round action that lets you do your several attacks BAB gives you (just like full attack action) but it is not full-attack itself (wich haste requires)
Obviously the list of actions has sub-categoties.
Spell combat, a full round action that allows all iterative attacks, is defined by FAQ as something distinct from a full attack action.
How this new action interacts with core rules written prior to the FAQ is undefined.
To me this seems like the clear distinction between 'melee attack' and 'attack action'. You have a melee attack in an attack action, but the attack action is a defined Standard action.
Much in the same way you have a full attack in a Full Attack Action, but the Full Attack Action is a defined Full Round Action.
By the precedent set by 'melee attack' vs 'melee action', Pounce shouldn't work in a full attack as it's using the Charge full-round action, much in the same way that the Magus was ruled against Haste with Spell Combat for the Use Special Ability full-round action. Neither action is the full-attack action.
You need to use a full-attack action or something that specifically says you make a full-attack action as part of the action such as Flurry of Blows.
There is no such thing as a Full-Attack Action, there is Full-Attack which is a type of action, but no Full-Attack Action. The book uses Full-Attack Action as shorthand for Full-Attack that is a type of action to save on word count and to reference the reader to the action section of the book. Anytime you see Full-Attack Action the book is referring to the full round action Full-Attack.
Pounce does state that it is a Full-Attack, Spell Combat never uses the phrase Full-Attack. The statement of something being a Full-Attack is the key to haste working on it. Spell Combat never states it is a Full-Attack and therefore haste does not work. Pounce does state that it is a Full-Attack and so therefore it works.
The Spell Combat ruling had me confused and the above is the only way I can make sense of it. I can understand that from a game balance perspective it may be necessary to deny Magus' the extra attack from haste and that there is a labyrinth of rules for the Devs to navigate to try to achieve that outcome as much of the wording is not their own, so things will tend to get messy.
I would not mind that pounce get nerfed, the diference between a pouncing barbarian and the otehr barbarians is so big that is not funny any more.
I'd say its a problem with all martials really. Its not so much of pounce being op as much as it sucking when you can't make more than one attack. Taking away nice things won't fix already existing problems with everyone else. Besides, at best its a minor stealth nerf.
I'll tap FAQ but I don't really see a need to.
"Full attack" and "full attack action" are equivalent terms.
Spell Combat is not a full attack [action], but a full-round action that happens to behave as if it were a full attack; 'as if' is not the same 'is'.
Charge is a full-round action that never calls out it being a full attack; thus it doesn't get a Haste attack.
Pounce specifically states it is a charge that is also a full attack, and thus gets the Haste attack (specific trumps general).
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Wait, Spell Combat doesn't sync with haste? Damn... I'm playing an 8th level magus, and we must have misread/misinterpreted the class feature to count as full-attack action.
Talking about charge and charge action, can you ready a "partial" (standard action) charge, e.g. if you're fighting invisible or teleporting foes? Or is charging as a standard action limited only to surprise rounds?
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I am going to suspect that since slow doesn't affect the pounce, that haste isn't going to affect the pounce, either.
+1
Also...
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.
So charge is clearly a special full-round action of its own (almost similar in terminology to a certain combat technique using spells). Pounce modifies charge to allow a combatant to get their full attacks, rather than just one (sounds familiar again...). And, Haste requires that you declare a full attack action.
I think the evidence points strongly to not getting the extra attack when pouncing. It could go the other way, but that's where I believe the argument is strongest.
Wait, Spell Combat doesn't sync with haste? Damn... I'm playing an 8th level magus, and we must have misread/misinterpreted the class feature to count as full-attack action.
Talking about charge and charge action, can you ready a "partial" (standard action) charge, e.g. if you're fighting invisible or teleporting foes? Or is charging as a standard action limited only to surprise rounds?
I believe you can only charge as a standard action if the only action you're allowed during the round is a standard action - so, normally only during a surprise round.