Question out there for the community:
If a familiar (not a cohort) somehow gained an item creation feat could it be tasked to make magical items for the familiar's wizard/sorcerer/spellcaster companion?
Most importantly, why or why not?
"Look mistress! I made you another gefudderfabble!"
I could see this happening with a Beast-bonded witch's improved familiar. Then the witches familiar can get a familiar as well as some crafting feats.
Item Creation Feats: Does having a caster level from a spell-like ability meet the caster level prerequisite for selecting an item creation feat?
Yes.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/06/13
So if your familiar has some SLA's then it could take item creation feats.
Is it moral to enslave your familiar into making items for you? Yes. He is your best friend. He will do anything for you. If the GM will allow it, is another matter entirely.
The question is geared more towards whether the familiar can even make the item in the first place -- since you cannot compel a creature to create magic item for you through charm/domination. Hypothetically, if a familiar were able to get an item creation feat, could they make it -- or due to the fact that they are a familiar prevent them from doing so due to lack of free will?
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The question is geared more towards whether the familiar can even make the item in the first place -- since you cannot compel a creature to create magic item for you through charm/domination. Hypothetically, if a familiar were able to get an item creation feat, could they make it -- or due to the fact that they are a familiar prevent them from doing so due to lack of free will?
You have a Pathfinder citation for that?
I remember that as a 3.x rule, but in 3.x making magic items had a XP cost, in Pathfinder the only costs are time and money.Are you sure it has been ported over?
I have serious doubts on the ability of someone dominated to make magic items, but a charmed person seem perfectly capable to make them.
It's a moot point because there is no way for familiars to gain feats (or skill ranks etc.) as they do NOT gain hit dice. They are TREATED as having hit dice for various purposes, but they do not gain hit dice the way animal companions and eidolons do.
Not sure what HD have to do with it. Feat requirements are caster level. SLAs can be used for caster level prerequisites. Are you saying that a familiar has no caster level?
Regular familiars do not get feats. They improve through their wizard or witch (or sorcerer in some cases) leveling up. I believe they use the same skills as the character as well. In essence, familiars are an extension of the character.
It's a hypothetical.
Can a familiar betray, yes. can it disobey, yes.
Here's one for the developers: Can a familiar choose to not be a familiar?
Diego: Interesting. I didn't see a reference in the core rulebook regarding charmed creatures not able to be tasked with making magic items.
Ok, slight modification to the original hypothetical:
*IF* a familiar was able get the feats (perhaps through a magic item), and had the requisite skills, could they be tasked with magic item creation, or is the simple status of being a familiar that is magically bound to the spellcaster enough to prevent it's creation given the assumption that the 3.5 rule against using charmed/compelled creatures to create magic items is in effect.
This is not a moot question. The question isn't about whether they can or cannot make magic items -- it's whether, given the 3.5 rule, they have the requisite free will to do so.
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You can increase the HD of a homunculus familiar.
Al familiars come with 1 feat, you can retrain it and take a crafting feat.
As the rules about familiars say: "Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher." if the master can take the feat, a familiar with an arcane SLA can take it.
I think that the Valet familiar archetype will give it the crafting feat that its master has only for the use of Cooperative Crafting, but the wording is vague enough that it can be read as "the familiar has the same crafting feats of his master".
A homunculus can be built with extra HD. It then has extra feats. If its Int is also raised (+5000 gp per +2) it could have enough skill ranks to qualify for Master Craftsman and then Craft Wondrous Item or Craft Magic Arms And Armor without any pesky SLAs. So I don't think getting the feats is an issue.
OTOH, NON-familiar homunculi barely have any free will, so a familiar homunculus will run into problems there if anything does... but I don't think anything does.
LazarX:
You can gain feats through things other than increasing your HD. There are examples of existing magical items that grant feats (mainly combat feats, but there is no rule excluding creating an item that grants an item creation feat).
So, not a moot question.
Diego: Thanks for the example.
That infers that the familiar *can* indeed get item crafting feats and can be tasked with doing those. Pretty definitive. So, even with the 3.5 rule in effect, they aren't considered charmed/compelled in any way.
Also, a Beastbonded Witch has the option of letting her familiar take a feat instead of the witch whenever the witch would otherwise gain a feat. Why the witch would transfer a feat to her familiar instead of taking the item creation feat herself is aonther matter.
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It's a hypothetical.
Can a familiar betray, yes. can it disobey, yes.
Here's one for the developers: Can a familiar choose to not be a familiar?
Diego: Interesting. I didn't see a reference in the core rulebook regarding charmed creatures not able to be tasked with making magic items.
Ok, slight modification to the original hypothetical:
*IF* a familiar was able get the feats (perhaps through a magic item), and had the requisite skills, could they be tasked with magic item creation, or is the simple status of being a familiar that is magically bound to the spellcaster enough to prevent it's creation given the assumption that the 3.5 rule against using charmed/compelled creatures to create magic items is in effect.
This is not a moot question. The question isn't about whether they can or cannot make magic items -- it's whether, given the 3.5 rule, they have the requisite free will to do so.
I would say they can, as long as they have the requisite appendages to do it.
Crafting magic items has requirements that are often forgotten btu in this situation become very influent.Example:
"To create a magic weapon, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled."
While it is not spelled out explicitly, the crafter need to be capable to work on the item, assembling it and performing some kind of work on it.
If all you have are paws it become difficult to do that.
Diego,
Granted. All of that is assumed in my initial question.
Let's extend this out a bit:
What about summoned creatures and Eidolons -- especially Eidolons, (again given the 3.5 rule), do they have the free will, or are they compelled as well?
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@LazarX
Construct Modifications
...
Hit Dice Modification: Hit Dice represent the overall strength and power of a construct. They affect a number of subsequent abilities, including hit points, saving throws, and base attacks. Determine the effects of a Hit Dice modification using the rules for adding creature Hit Dice using the information in Monster Creation. Because a construct's size is limited, a Hit Dice modification cannot increase its size. Therefore Hit Dice modification can never increase the base construct's Hit Dice beyond 50% of its total HD. Some constructs have a defined cost for increasing Hit Dice. To calculate the cost per Hit Die of other constructs, divide the construct's construction cost by its existing Hit Dice.
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Diego,
Granted. All of that is assumed in my initial question.
Let's extend this out a bit:
What about summoned creatures and Eidolons -- especially Eidolons, (again given the 3.5 rule), do they have the free will, or are they compelled as well?
Yes, they can. There is a thread where they speak about doing that too.
Nothing useful, we ended speaking of crafting pearl of posers
Edit: Pearls of powers, but the typo is to beautiful to delete it.
:D
Diego,
Very interesting.
All of this wasn't really about making magic items -- I was assuming the 3.5 rule was in effect (bad assumption).
It was actually about how much free will a familiar, summoned creature or an eidolon has relative to the ability of it's master to compel it to act against it's own wishes (should they not intersect.
Thanks for all the input.
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Well, imp and quasit familiars working for the rapid demise of their masters so they can grab their souls and trade it for favors in Hell or the Abyss has been a staple in D&D for decades. I recall that kind of plot for adventures as far back as the first edition.
Other familiars whose existence is more closely linked to the master well being can be less willing to go against their master will.
Ultimate campaign has a few pieces about familiars:
Companions chapter: Page 140-147
An excerpt about plot hooks:
Familiar
Plot hooks for familiars are similar to those for animal companions, as they can have the same unknown backgrounds and instinctive reactions to people they knew when they were just common animals. Fortunately, familiars are usually small creatures that can easily pass for common pets as long as they don’t do anything that reveals their unusual intelligence. Most townsfolk aren’t averse to a common cat, a trained hawk, or even a snake, though innkeepers and merchants might ask that such animals be kept in a cage to prevent them from getting loose and causing any damage.
Remember that a familiar has an empathic link to its master, and its animal instincts can lead to plot hooks. For example, a toad familiar might project feelings of hunger whenever a member of a fly-demon cult is nearby, a bat familiar might express curiosity about the words a weird hermit is muttering under his breath, and a rat familiar might feel fear when a dangerous assassin walks into the room. A more powerful familiar can speak with other animals of its kind, and if left to roam, it could pick up interesting news about a town or an army camp.
Another piece from the Kingdom ruling section:
PCs and NPCs as Leaders: These rules include enough important leadership roles that a small group of PCs can’t fill them all. You may have to recruit NPCs to fill out the remaining necessary roles for your kingdom. Cohorts, followers, and even intelligent familiars or similar companions can fill leadership roles, and you may want to consider inviting allied NPCs to become rulers, such as asking a friendly ranger you rescued to become the kingdom’s Marshal.
If an intelligent familiar can have a leadership role in the council it should have a free will. he has to act independently to be capable to do his work.