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Played this guy to 3, been GMing him up a bit from there. Haven't picked my first spell, but I think I know what I want. Running a 2-Handed build obviously, but been considering switching to Falchion before I enchant.
LG Human Paladin of Iomedae 4(Oath of Vengeance)
~Stats~
STR~20(+1 at 4)
DEX~10
CON~14
INT~7
WIS~7
CHA~16
HP~36
AC~19
~Traits~
~A Sure Thing
~Blade of Mercy
~Feats~
~Power Attack
~Furious Focus
~Extra Lay on Hands
~Relevant Skills~
~Diplomacy~12
~Gear~
~Wand of CLW 33/50
~Scabbard of Vigor
~Masterwork Greatsword
~Full Plate
~Sitting on 5594 gp
Not super optimized due to my lack of truly understanding martials before I built him, but a decent first try I think. I have Ultimate Campaign if I really need to retrain. Hammer my build guys. I want to know everything that's wrong with it.
It looks decent enough. One question: Do you find yourself actually needing Extra Lay on Hands?
Featwise, I'd consider WF. Gear-wise, you're going to need more mobility at some point.
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To expand on that last post, it's not like I'm entirely clueless. I know I want him to be a good two handed fighter type, but I don't have a huge system mastery yet and Extra LOH is a boon to my survivability while also giving me the ability to use my Oath with reckless abandon, as generally I find myself not running out of Lay on Hands/Smites before the threatening guy is down. I realize that may change as I level, but even then just having two extra LOH will act as an extra 21-28 hp at higher levels.
EDIT: Realized it's probably Weapon Focus. TBH hitting has not been a problem, I want to hit harder more than anything else. Obvious ways to do are magical weapons and belt of strength, but beyond that what can I invest in to increase my damage output? And is the average dpr of 5 from a falchion vs. 7 from a greatsword hit worth the extra crit range for keen?
a reach weapon is always an option getting more attacks of opp and less on yourself
I am using a lucerne hammer with my paladin and got the greatsword as backup
but the best damage increase is always belt of giant str!
Your greatsword is doing 7 +5 +6 damage right now; Keen Falchion is a +10% damage boost over a keen greatsword, and dropping 2 points right now is more than 10%. But add in a +1 weapon and smiting, and you're doing 23 or 21+10% (>23), and the scales are going to continue tipping in the direction of the Falchion.
So unless you hate d4s, like I do, you should switch.
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Vital Strike has the problem of only adding modifiers from a single attack. You take Grim-Grin's build for example (we come from the same shop to those who do not know). He runs a Vital Strike build that runs 3d8 from the +1 Impact Bastard Sword. So that means it is 3d8 + 3d8 + 20 (example damage number). In comparison for him using two seperate attacks at +6/+1, which is 3d8+20 and 3d8+20, you sort of see how you lose a bunch of damage from the second hit. That is a whopping 20 (example) damage that could be dealt to the same or another creature. Unless you have something that would push the damage output to higher numbers, like Furious Finish, Vital Strike will overall be less damage. There are also other penalties, like unable to charge with a Vital Strike and the such, so pushing this onto your paladin might not be an optimal output.
As for Cleaving Finish, the issue is the mathematical odds of your damage output resulting in dropping a creature. Every. Single. Time. Let us say you have two Bobs standing next to you. You attempt a cleave, you hit one. Great. You hit another one with the second cleave. Great too. Are they both still up? If yes, Cleaving Finish does not trigger. Next attack you cleave. Bob 1 drops. Triggers Cleaving Finish. It stops the standard cleave to use Cleaving Finish. Bob 2 is hit and still stands. End of that turn. Turn 3. You cleave starting with Bob 2. Bob 2 drops. Triggers Cleaving Finish, but you have no other targets in reach. Cleaving Finish ends.
As you can see, the issue with Cleaving Finish is that you have to rely on knowing when and where creatures will drop in order to use the feat ON PAR. Outside that circumstance, like fighting a single large creature, Cleaving Finish become worthless.
Note that if you are going to be front-lining, you should start taking into consideration on you AC. You are looking at around +7 - +10 on enemies attacks on your level, so be careful on your cash allocation.
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Yeah, Vital Strike seemed like the superior choice to me and I've seen a few builds recommend it. I've considered taking it just for when I'd rather standard attack-> move back 10 taking AOO->Lay on Hands rather than standing around trading full attacks. But it still only increases my DPR in situations in which I'm worried more about survival than I am about my DPR.
I'm definitely aware of the fact that my paladin will no longer be immortal heading into the 5+ range. I'm planning to change tactics to help some of that, like bracing for charges with a readied attack and slowly retreating as opposed to diving headfirst, and my Lay on Hands will definitely start to become a factor. I'm also aware that I need armor, but honestly I feel really strapped for cash and was hoping for some non-monetary way to increase my DPR. Perhaps I should instead invest another feat or two in defensive capabilities?
I would be very surprised if you didn't have any suggestions on that front.
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- You dropped your INT, so combat Expertise is out of the picture.
- Dodge is a simple +1 AC (Dodge).
- Being Human, you can swap your racial trait (not the two traits), from Skilled to Heart of the Streets. +1 AC (Dodge)/+1 Reflex when standing next to 2 allies. Can move through crowds easily as well.
- Fighting Defensively will drop your attack by 4, but increase your AC (Dodge) by 2. If you have 3 ranks in Acrobatics, it increses to 3.
- A Belt of Incredible Dexterity would increase 3 things: Initiative, AC, and Reflex Saves. Helps with the Dex-based Skill checks too.
- Increasing your armor to +1 cost 1000g. If you want to maximize AC through gold, +1 the armor, Buy Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Ring of Protection +1. After that, you just got an extra 3 AC.
- A Sansetsukon is a Martial Weapon: 1d10, 19-20/x2. What is great about it is that is has the Blocking subtype, so when you fight defensively, you get +1 AC (Shield). And with your Furious Focus, Power Attack will not drop you attack even further.
- Remember that if you are going to the Fighting Defensively route, there is always the 1/2 level dip of Master of Many Styles to obtain Crane Style/Crane Wing. I know I am a bit biased with that, but it does reduce the penalties by half. Crane Wing itself is now one of the most powerful feats to be placed in combat.
- Make note that with you pushing hit-and-run tactics with a paladin, it leaves wide open the rest of your party members. Remember that Lay on Hands can be very effective on putting pressure during combat, and not so much when disengaging from combat. The problem from moving back 10 to Lay on Hands is that the next attack will have a higher chance to hit due to charge range. If the creature has a Powerful Charge, you might drop further before the Lay on Hands.
- Shield of Swings could be a last option. Reduce damage dealt by half to gain +4 AC (Shield)/CMD.
There are not that much options in aiding AC to a 2-H combatant. As you saw with my personal build, I relied heavily on focusing with a shield. With the shield out of the picture, you lose a net increase of your AC by 25-60%, depending on your layout, making you possibly second string, Main Attacker on emergencies.
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I'm definitely going the conventional armor route, but I think my main goal will be trying to keep iteratives from hitting me and soaking some of a main hit with Lay on Hands.
Hit-and-Run tactics are only going to be used in general on things that full attack...well something like a Glabrezu with its 5 primary attacks at +20. I mean obviously I wont wait for that point to back up, but that tactic is mainly to prevent me from dying to a huge amount of damage in one round, and if anyone else is in melee of something like that and not just as tanky/tankier/invisible then it's their fault. I'm not going to abandon anyone obviously, but I can't help people who can't help themselves.
I was also thinking about picking up a 2nd Extra Lay on Hands feat at some point so with a +2 hat of charisma I could use Ultimate Mercy later.
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If you had a bit more Dexterity, an option could be that once you get Dodge, you can grab Mobility. +4 AC (Dodge) when moving around can be nice in cases. If you are obtaining the belt slot for anything else, the option that you can use is the Snakeskin Tunic, which give +2 DEX (Enhancement) as a body slot. You DO have to place that 8th level stat to Dexterity, since the prerequisite to Mobility is 13 DEX.
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Extra Lay on Hands is more than just a defensive option for me, as I mentioned earlier. However I've been thinking of retraining out of Furious Focus since it's no longer as effective as it once was, and a -2 at later levels should be trivial. Also it only dropping it on the first attack is kind of blehhhh. I actually just got the Inner Sea World Guide, so it's definitely something to consider in place of Furious Focus.
Your PC is so stupid and foolish it hurts… well his brain would hurt but he doesn’t have any.
If you have to dump, then you aren’t doing a decent build.
So heroic, a hero who has to have others in his party help him with the “hard’ (two syllable + ) words in his holy text. One who not only can’t ‘track a hawk on a cloudy day” but can’t spot the barn… he’s in. Are you playing Dudley Do-right?
For the cost of a little DPR you wouldn’t be blind, gullible and altho yes, Grace does add back +3 to your Will, you will fail some will saves due to that -2. And a failed will save means sitting out most of a combat. Where’s that DPR then? Or worse, they Dominate you and you’re using that DPR on your friend.
This is a horrible horrible build, the sort any decent DM will make you regret you tried to play it. To quote James Jacobs "A good GM finds ways to make PCs regret doing too many dump stats. "
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People like this who assume that dump stats are horrible for the game and that dumped intellectual stats are useless bug me. Have you considered that I'm aware of the drawbacks of the build? I had an oft-used concept in mind. 7s aren't extraordinarily stupid or lacking in common sense, they're just slow on the uptake and take a while to think things through, in addition to not being very knowledgeable.
He's a strong, well meaning character who cares about his friends, and protects them to the best of his abilities but isn't the kind of guy to come up with the quickest or best ideas when another problem shows up. It also has to do with some of my opinions on religion, but that's not the point of the build.
I'm planning to pickup a cloak obviously, but my save is higher than other pcs that have done fine with a dumped will and no good save or Grace. You might want to try being a little less confrontational with your input if you want to be taken seriously.
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Fey Foundling from Inner Sea World Guide. Is one of the best paladin feet's. It dose have to be taken at level 1. However it adds +2 to each dice of healing done to you. Much more effective over all then extra lay on hands.
The issue with this is that the paladin has already reached 4th level. So unfortanately, obtaining this is not possible.
Now to deal with endmission combatants, you can try Radiant Charge. When you successfully hit something with a charge, you can dump all your Lay on Hands to deal 1d6 holy damage per Lay on Hands. Sure you lose the use of it for the rest of the day, but the good thing about it is that it ignores alignment, restistance, damage reduction, and immunities. A decent alternative to Vital Strike.
Bracers of the Merciful Knight is a good Wrist Slot item that would increased your healing/survivability.
7s aren't extraordinarily stupid or lacking in common sense, they're just slow on the uptake and take a while to think things through, in addition to not being very knowledgeable.
You might want to try being a little less confrontational with your input if you want to be taken seriously.
Since (not counting racial modifiers and DM fiat) the lowest NPC stat in all Golarion is a 8, yes, this PC is well below the curve.
And, did you ask for "Praise my Paladin build"? No, you asked for "CRITIQUE MY PALADIN BUILD! "
*YOU* also asked for "Hammer my build guys. I want to know everything that's wrong with it."
Fey Foundling from Inner Sea World Guide. Is one of the best paladin feet's. It dose have to be taken at level 1. However it adds +2 to each dice of healing done to you. Much more effective over all then extra lay on hands.The issue with this is that the paladin has already reached 4th level. So unfortanately, obtaining this is not possible.
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Sandpoint Faithful is a trait that gives you half of that.
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@DrDeth Ugh, you're doing this again? Read the print below the "submit post" button.
The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place.
Since (not counting racial modifiers and DM fiat) the lowest NPC stat in all Golarion is a 8, yes, this PC is well below the curve.
That is based off a standardized generalization for quick handling of NPC's in both characterization, construction, and utilization. It is not a sound argument. Furthermore, ignoring the race adjustment means ignoring a significant portion of NPC's across the entire game world. He's dumb for Gnome, but as wise as an Ifrit. Finally, the character is a PC. PC's are not on the bell curve. They are the exceptions and the heroes. A PC can be thick as a post and oblivious to boot if s/he chooses. That's why there is a point buy system.
And, did you ask for "Praise my Paladin build"? No, you asked for "CRITIQUE MY PALADIN BUILD! "
Nowhere did he say "Please be a jerk about it". The tone and attitude you have adopted is not friendly or conducive of discussion, it's condescending and insulting.
*YOU* also asked for "Hammer my build guys. I want to know everything that's wrong with it."
Perhaps you can find a productive way of saying that you prefer characters with higher mental attributes because you find wisdom and intelligence penalties difficult to cope with? Offer options to improve those areas or shore up the weaknesses as an invitation to discourse.
As a final remark: Some people like playing characters with Flaws. Having flaws gives your character a sense of realism and his/her personality real integrity. Role playing can sometimes mean not being average or exceptional everywhere. In a game world where your characters are superb at their specialties, having areas where you are not as good provides genuine opportunities for good characterization of your own. The autistic prodigy, the oblivious star athlete, the pretty ditz, you see the existing archetypes, what's wrong with bringing some of those into game?
. Next attack you cleave. Bob 1 drops. Triggers Cleaving Finish. It stops the standard cleave to use Cleaving Finish. Bob 2 is hit and still stands. End of that turn.
Emphasis Mine
I am pretty certain that is not how cleave and cleaving finish work when combined. I think you still get your normal cleave attack if "bob 2" qualified as an original target of the regular cleave, as ridiculous as this double looping motion might seem in game.
I will check the FAQ but I see nothing in the description of either feat to suggest it behaves as you say.
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@Kurthnaga I recall you mentioning you had Ultimate Campaign, so if you wanted to re-stack your feats with Fae Foundling you could. Furious Focus is not my favorite feat when you're so limited. With your Full BAB and melee focus build, I would definitely consider swapping it out.
If you switch to a Falchion and pick up keen, then explore critical feats for later in your career to capitalize on the great threat range. (Not as good as dual-wielding crits and smite evil but far more feat friendly)
I really like Unsanctioned Knowledge for level 5. Four spells to your list for one feat, and some of the choices from the Oracle and Inquisitor lists are fabulous.
Improved Unarmed Strike is a costly buy in to get to the Combat Style feats, but Dragon Style in particular is pretty great at the first step. Charge through friendlies and ignore difficult terrain.
Look at getting a cracked ioun stone (the one that stores spells) and have someone charge it with Shield (you could buy the wand with PP). You can boost your AC by 4 whenever combat looks dangerous as a standard action, and become immune to Magic Missile.
I would personally drop Diplomacy for UMD. There is so much gear you can abuse. A wand of Lead Blades? Imagine the possibilities...
Potions of Enlarge to increase your reach and damage. They are cheap at 50 gp each, and you shouldn't need it for more than 10 rounds.
Anyway just some ideas for thought. Have fun and Good luck!
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Errant basically said everything I thought. You can be critical without being insulting on a personal level.
Someone else went over the math in another game, but a 7 is only something like a 15% below the standard variation for heroic npcs.
I'm aware what a 7 in both of the primary mental stats does to my character. These are things that can't be corrected at the moment, and something that I actually had in mind when conceptualizing this character. Whether or not dumping is detrimental is academic at this point.
EDIT: @Errant: I was wondering if I could do so. I wasn't sure. And I have skilled so I'm going to be putting points into UMD, maybe retrain out of irrelevant skills I had from when I really had no clue what I was doing. Some great suggestions Errant, I'll definitely be picking up UMD and some pots at the very least. Fey Foundling and Critical feats are also likely.
You can be critical without being insulting on a personal level.
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I sad bad things about your build, not you.
And, you did say "Hammer my build guys. I want to know everything that's wrong with it."
You didn't say "Tell me how great my build is and make suggestions for improvements'- you asked us to HAMMER your build, which is exactly what I did. Be careful what you ask for.
As a final remark: Some people like playing characters with Flaws. Having flaws gives your character a sense of realism and his/her personality real integrity. Role playing can sometimes mean not being average or exceptional everywhere. In a game world where your characters are superb at their specialties, having areas where you are not as good provides genuine...
I'll bet a nickel right here and now that if it wasnt for the extra points, he wouldn't have dumped those stats. It's not a "flaw" - it's extra points to have more DPR. Let's be real, OK? Let us not pretend this for RPing reasons we both know otherwise.
Hey a low Con is a trope too, ala Elric of Melnibone. I notice those "people like playing characters with Flaws" never seem to dump Con, why is that?
Hey a low Con is a trope too, ala Elric of Melnibone. I notice those "people like playing characters with Flaws" never seem to dump Con, why is that?
'Cause players with PC who solve mysteries about city guild intrigue and nobility scandals and politics black ops are too real-life interesting to spend time on message boards.
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Someone else went over the math in another game, but a 7 is only something like a 15% below the standard variation for heroic npcs.
Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.
That 7 is like only 15% below the standard variation huh?
It's also only 10% better than the most mindless ravaging barely sentient brain damaged human animal (INT 3 being the lowest int you can have and still be thinking).
It always annoys me when people try to use statistics to say that a 7 isn't all that bad. Yes it is. It's not brain damaged, but it's about as low as you can go and not be considered as having a damaged brain.
Statistically speaking, that 7 is only halfway between average (10) and brain damaged drooling moron (3).
So, please don't try to use statistics as the only answer, every statistic can be manipulated to make any argument you want, usually. That's why people pay big money to companies to produce statistics proving anything you like.
Statistics are a very good tool, as long as you do a bias analysis to make sure your own bias's are not influencing the statistics.
Your greatsword is doing 7 +5 +6 damage right now; Keen Falchion is a +10% damage boost over a keen greatsword, and dropping 2 points right now is more than 10%. But add in a +1 weapon and smiting, and you're doing 23 or 21+10% (>23), and the scales are going to continue tipping in the direction of the Falchion.
So unless you hate d4s, like I do, you should switch.
FYI if you're considering switching from a greatsword to a falchion, you should consider the nodachi. A nodachi is basically a two-handed katana. While it is an eastern weapon it is perfectly legal for PFS play and is a martial weapon so you already know how to use it. It does the same things as a Falchion only the damage is 1d10 instead of 2d4, so that's a 0.5 point average damage boost. It also has the brace ability and can do either slashing or piercing damage. And the funniest part is that it is cheaper than a Falchion at only 60gp.
You need either Ultimate Combat or Ultimate Equipment in order to use it for PFS. I recommend Ultimate Equipment myself - it's really handy.
Peet
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You can be critical without being insulting on a personal level.
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I sad bad things about your build, not you.
And, you did say "Hammer my build guys. I want to know everything that's wrong with it."
You didn't say "Tell me how great my build is and make suggestions for improvements'- you asked us to HAMMER your build, which is exactly what I did. Be careful what you ask for.
You very clearly implied that only bad players play with dump stats. You also weren't being constructive nearly as much as you were being insulting either.
A constructive person would include in his post some ways to shore up saves post ability scores, or the "ideal" stat array with no dumps of 15,14,12,12,12,12, or any of the other sub 17, low dump stat arrays. And you claimed that no one plays these kinds of stats were for flavor, but the original statline for this guy was 15,14,14,12,12,09 before racial modifiers. I changed it about the night before playing to more reflect my beliefs in what it takes someone to follow religion devoutly to the exclusion of everything else.
Also people probably don't like playing the con dump in general because they want to play a character they like for as long as possible, and see low Con as the thing that is most likely to get you killed. And level 1-3 they're probably right, but I'm quite aware how bad failing a debilitating Will save can be and I'm planning to attempt to be prepared for such an eventuality heading into higher levels.
@mdt: You're right, you can make statistics say basically anything you want. But even if you want to take those out of the picture, a 7 really isn't too especially stupid just thinking about it logically. Otherwise no one would be able to play them. They're still functioning members of society who can communicate and do their job within the infrastructure of their society. And to be honest, in places like those in Golarion sometimes being too smart isn't great either. I've definitely over thought things in character on my Wizard only to have them later blow up in my face. And there are upsides to being a gullible Paladin as well. But honestly dump stats is a topic that I'm sure we could all argue until we're blue in the face and never get anywhere with.
@Peet: Thanks for the pickup, I've got an Ultimate Combat sitting around but hadn't thought to pick up the Nodachi. Besides rolling max/min damage on crits is more nail biting with the Nodachi anyway. :P
What? Abandoning Iomedae's Longsword for a Nodachi!?!? Blasphemy!!!
No, no, it's just a really long sword. Iomedae has to be down with that. :)
You can be critical without being insulting on a personal level.
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I sad bad things about your build, not you.
And, you did say "Hammer my build guys. I want to know everything that's wrong with it."
You didn't say "Tell me how great my build is and make suggestions for improvements'- you asked us to HAMMER your build, which is exactly what I did. Be careful what you ask for.
You very clearly implied that only bad players play with dump stats. You also weren't being constructive nearly as much as you were being insulting either.
I changed it about the night before playing to more reflect my beliefs in what it takes someone to follow religion devoutly to the exclusion of everything else...
No, I did nothing of the sort. I did say "If you have to dump, then you aren’t doing a decent build."
So, in a world where Deities are very very real, take active hands in a persons destiniy, grant powers and such, you think that anyone who is deeply religious is an idiot and a fool? Man, talk about not leaving behind your personal real-world ideas.
But again, if you ask to be hammered, don't get all hurt when someone does exactly what you asked for.
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@DrDeth:Maybe dumping 2 stats isn't a great idea for a lot of builds, but that doesn't mean you have to insult the build to point out its flaw. Being Critical=/=Being Insulting. 7 isn't always a bad stat. Are you saying that all sorcerers and wizards that gain nothing from Strength other than carrying capacity and melee capability (that they don't need) must have a str. of 10? Or that all Barbarians that gain nothing from Int, Wis, or Cha (other than some specific rage powers) should always be as charming, intelligent, and wise as every other person in the book? Now, there is nothing wrong with them being just as mentally competent as a commoner, don't get me wrong, In fact, I really like charismatic barbarians, but they are just as good as uncharismatic barbarians. You can Critique and Hammer someone's build without directly insulting it for being a terrible build (which it isn't).
Now, OP, Nodachi is a better weapon than falchion, sticking with it is probably wise. Also, consider Impacting it and using a buckler. Its +1 AC when you don't attack (like when the healer needs LoH or you are flat-footed) for a -1 on attack rolls (not huge).
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One of the guys at my FLGS plays Indiana Jones. It's not like my concept was malicious, it was just how I wanted to play my first religious character in Pathfinder.
I wouldn't mind if you were actually constructive at all. You've mentioned problems but no solutions at all. When you think there's something wrong with someone's build, why don't you try to help fix it? That's what these threads are here for. If you actually want to be constructive then do so, but up until now you've done nothing but argue that you aren't being a prick.
One thing you could do is to take the Sunder line of feats. Improved Sunder, Greater Sunder, and Sundering strike. Combine this with Cornugon Smash and a good intimidate for a truly devastating attack.
With a single critical hit on a sunder you can destroy your opponents weapon, and armor, get a free intimidate check to demoralize them. And any damage above what is needed to destroy their gear they still take. If you take improved critical instead of a keen weapon you can also use bless weapon to auto confirm critical hits vs. evil opponents. Do this with a Smite Evil at high level and not much will survive it.
@DrDeth:Maybe dumping 2 stats isn't a great idea for a lot of builds, but that doesn't mean you have to insult the build to point out its flaw. Being Critical=/=Being Insulting. 7 isn't always a bad stat. Are you saying that all sorcerers and wizards that gain nothing from Strength other than carrying capacity and melee capability (that they don't need) must have a str. of 10?
Well, I _have_ said just that, though I was met with vigorous disagreement on the boards. Being able to lift and carry stuff is a good thing.
From a pure point build perspective, you get more by not dumping to pump your higher stats because of the way the costs work. The 4 points you get back by dumping a stat to 7 do not get you +3 on another stat unless you're moving a 10 to a 13.
IOW, at best you're taking a -2 penalty on a stat to get a +1 (at best) bonus on another. It's possible to squeeze out a +2 if you had another point sitting around, but you're almost always losing overall stat bonuses.
I'm assuming the OP bought his STR to 17, +2 for Human, +1 for 4th level. If the OP had just taken one stat at 8 (or 2 @ 9, which is a worse option), they would have started with STR 15, +2 Human, +1 for 4th level, for an 18. In exchange they get back +2 will save and 4 skill points (assuming INT is the dump) - the equivalent of a feat (Iron Will) and the human skilled trait.
IMO maxed attributes are seldom worth the tradeoff. Even if I felt it was necessary (save-based full caster), I'd probably still try to keep the other stats 10+ rather than dump some and have a few 14s. I'm sure some people enjoy playing flawed heroes, that's not my cup of tea (or I'll just play morally flawed heroes instead, which is arguably more fun).
Great post. Look, I do have one "Min/Maxed" PC, a Hu Sorc with 12 con & 12 Dex but all the rest are 10- except CHA which is maxed. Not well rounded, and yes, i do play sometime him a little dim and foolish, but not enuf to be crippling or annoying.
From what I have seen, you don;t get back what you lose. Perception is *THE* most rolled skill in the game, often leading to you being surprised when the others aren't. It's really annoying to know you're always going to fail the check.
Certainly a small dump can be grounds for some RPing. I had a Monk once that was constantly tell people about "Spiritual Inner Awareness". I played him as unremarkably looking with little personality other than his sole speech. Boring, slightly annoying.
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To the OP:
1. Your stats are fine -- in fact, I recommend ignoring anyone complaining about dump stats, because PFS is (usually) a hack & slash campaign. If you're not a bard (talker) or caster, then your job is to (1) hack, and (2) make your saves. (I prefer the more rounded builds the 15/14/14/14/14/07 array yields, but for a pure smash-mouth, the double-dump build is OK, especially with the new Fame acquisition rules no longer placing so much emphasis on skill checks with faction assignments.)
2. Keep the greatsword -- it's a 3d6 weapon when you're Enlarged. (The falchion is superior at high level -- but you'll retire in PFS at about the point where it even begins to matter. In the meantime, the steady +2 damage racks up the mileage.)
3. For your next feat, take Additional Traits for Accelerated Drinker (combat, swig those Enlarge potions as a move action -- ideal for guys without shields) and Dangerously Curious (magic, start casting your own minor buff & utility spells at about the point your caster allies are leading with better stuff in combat; a nice wand of Scorchng Ray is a very fun toy).
Notes:
* Being Enlarged bumps your STR to 22, achieving an ideal sweet-spot for two-handed weapon use without dropping a ton on a belt right away.
To the OP:
1. Your stats are fine -- in fact, I recommend ignoring anyone complaining about dump stats, because PFS is (usually) a hack & slash campaign. .
You gave this same advice to a newbie wanting to play his first PC as a Paladin. You suggested a 7 Wis. The poor guy spent his first game:
Sitting out one entire combat due to failing a will save.
Getting conned out of all his cash to buy a cursed item as he couldn't make an easy Sense Motive- and now he's stuck with it.
Feeling left out because he could never make a Perception roll.
In other words, IRL your advice failed completely.
But you know, in his one combat he did get an extra 2 DPR.
And in my three campaigns, none are "hack & slash". In fact Mysteries & diplomacy rolls are a major part, so much so that we tell new players that they NEED at least one social skill maxed out.
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To the OP:
1. Your stats are fine -- in fact, I recommend ignoring anyone complaining about dump stats, because PFS is (usually) a hack & slash campaign. If you're not a bard (talker) or caster, then your job is to (1) hack, and (2) make your saves. (I prefer the more rounded builds the 15/14/14/14/14/07 array yields, but for a pure smash-mouth, the double-dump build is OK, especially with the new Fame acquisition rules no longer placing so much emphasis on skill checks with faction assignments.)
2. Keep the greatsword -- it's a 3d6 weapon when you're Enlarged. (The falchion is superior at high level -- but you'll retire in PFS at about the point where it even begins to matter. In the meantime, the steady +2 damage racks up the mileage.)
3. For your next feat, take Additional Traits for Accelerated Drinker (combat, swig those Enlarge potions as a move action -- ideal for guys without shields) and Dangerously Curious (magic, start casting your own minor buff & utility spells at about the point your caster allies are leading with better stuff in combat; a nice wand of Scorchng Ray is a very fun toy).
Notes:
* Being Enlarged bumps your STR to 22, achieving an ideal sweet-spot for two-handed weapon use without dropping a ton on a belt right away.
I'm definitely aware of the advantages of other arrays. Like I said this array exists entirely because of concept. My Wizard, Druid, and Monk all only have one stat below 10.
That is definitely a helpful suggestion, I honestly had no idea what I wanted at 5th. I think I will take the retrain into Fey Foundling as well, so my feats will end up being
1. Power Attack
B. Fey Foundling
3. Extra Lay on Hands
5. Additional Traits
But besides potions of enlarge, what should I grab? Bull's Strength to hit the next sweet spot enlarge? Wand of Lead Blades with UMD? I guess if I go with this route to increase my dice Vital Strike is actually worth picking up?
@Mysterious: There are actually quite a few people in my shop who already sunder a lot, so I've been leaning away from it. But if you really think it's that much better than other alternatives, I'd like to hear more.
EDIT:
@DrDeth: I saw that thread, and while what happened to that new player was unfortunate, you can still miff your roles with a 7 will at level 1. Stuff happens. I've rolled well, even when I had a +0 to will at 1. Sometimes your dice save you, sometimes they don't. It doesn't make Thugs advice automatically wrong. If I rerolled this guy and ignored the concept like I said early he'd have a 9 int and 10+ in everything else. That doesn't make this build wrong. Stop thrusting your opinions on everyone else in this thread.
And we are talking about PFS, not home campaigns. Outside of a few really talky scenarios/skill based scenarios, 80% of PFS is combat. This guy actually has GM credit on him for one of the talkiest scenarios in the game, so I know it inside and out and I think he would have done fine in it. Anyway, this isn't the place to argue to death over dump stats. Please contribute something if you have ideas.
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@DrDeth:Dumping wisdom is rarely a good idea, and I never said it was, nor did I say dumping 2 stats was a good idea, but that doesn't mean the build is inherently Indecent. The dump stat topic is clearly controversial and I doubt that most of the posters will really change there opinion, so maybe we should all just leave the topic of dumping 2 stats alone. The OP can't really change all of his base stats, so your point has been made, move on. The most anyone can really do here is recommend you phrase your opinions in a less abrasive way then
Your PC is so stupid and foolish it hurts… well his brain would hurt but he doesn’t have any.
If you have to dump, then you aren’t doing a decent build.
So heroic, a hero who has to have others in his party help him with the “hard’ (two syllable + ) words in his holy text. One who not only can’t ‘track a hawk on a cloudy day” but can’t spot the barn… he’s in. Are you playing Dudley Do-right?
For the cost of a little DPR you wouldn’t be blind, gullible and altho yes, Grace does add back +3 to your Will, you will fail some will saves due to that -2. And a failed will save means sitting out most of a combat. Where’s that DPR then? Or worse, they Dominate you and you’re using that DPR on your friend.
This is a horrible horrible build, the sort any decent DM will make you regret you tried to play it. To quote James Jacobs "A good GM finds ways to make PCs regret doing too many dump stats. "
because it is offensive to tell someone flat out that there build is horrible and brainless whether you mean it to be or not.
OP:I agree with Sir Thugsalot in that you should take additional traits, but instead of dangerously curious, might I reccomend Seeker? It gives a +1 to perception and makes it a class skill. Could help make up for the dumped wisdom to put a rank or 2 in it. For gear, I recommend getting Impact on your weapon before keen (crit fishing isn't huge for a while unless you are a Magus) and perhaps a wand of enlarge person as well as the bulls strength you mentioned. Might get more leverage off of handing it to a friendly arcane caster then spending a bunch on potions.
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@DrDeth:Dumping wisdom is rarely a good idea, and I never said it was, nor did I say dumping 2 stats was a good idea, but that doesn't mean the build is inherently Indecent. The dump stat topic is clearly controversial and I doubt that most of the posters will really change there opinion, so maybe we should all just leave the topic of dumping 2 stats alone. The OP can't really change all of his base stats, so your point has been made, move on. The most anyone can really do here is recommend you phrase your opinions in a less abrasive way thenYour PC is so stupid and foolish it hurts… well his brain would hurt but he doesn’t have any.
If you have to dump, then you aren’t doing a decent build.
So heroic, a hero who has to have others in his party help him with the “hard’ (two syllable + ) words in his holy text. One who not only can’t ‘track a hawk on a cloudy day” but can’t spot the barn… he’s in. Are you playing Dudley Do-right?
For the cost of a little DPR you wouldn’t be blind, gullible and altho yes, Grace does add back +3 to your Will, you will fail some will saves due to that -2. And a failed will save means sitting out most of a combat. Where’s that DPR then? Or worse, they Dominate you and you’re using that DPR on your friend.
This is a horrible horrible build, the sort any decent DM will make you regret you tried to play it. To quote James Jacobs "A good GM finds ways to make PCs regret doing too many dump stats. "
because it is offensive to tell someone flat out that there build is horrible and brainless whether you mean it to be or not.
OP:I agree with Sir Thugsalot in that you should take additional traits, but instead of dangerously curious, might I reccomend Seeker? It gives a +1 to perception and makes it a class skill. Could help make up for the dumped wisdom to put a rank or 2 in it. For gear, I recommend getting Impact on your weapon before keen (crit fishing isn't huge for a while unless you are a Magus) and perhaps a wand of enlarge person as well as the...
I can't find the seeker trait you speak of. I found the Osirion and Grand Lodge faction traits, the Dwarf race trait, the regional trait, and the Goblin race trait.
I don't really want to spend more than 1-1.5 rounds buffing myself in combat. And as I've come to understand it, as an aside, Lead Blades and Impact do not stack, correct?
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Impact doesn't stack with lead blades, it saves you from needing the check to use it or the standard action activation.
Seeker is a trait in the ultimate campaign as a social trait.
The purpose of the wands are to give to a mage that will willingly buff you before you go adventuring, so you don't need to spend a bunch of rounds buffing.
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Right you are on Seeker, I couldn't find it in the OGC.
I'm still a bit a way from Impact, but I'll definitely pick it up around level 7-8.
In general wont I need UMD for Lead Blades though? As far as I can tell it's only on the Ranger's spell list, although I don't have my APG on hand at the moment.
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@DrDeth:Dumping wisdom is rarely a good idea, and I never said it was, nor did I say dumping 2 stats was a good idea, but that doesn't mean the build is inherently Indecent.
It's kind of hard to screw up a 2H Pally build, all in all. STR>CHA>CON>Rest, Power Attack, good to go. This build does that job well, it just has some pretty big weak spots.
That said, it's difficult to critique a build when character concept is being used as the reason for the build's most glaring weaknesses. Build critiques are almost always a by-the-numbers affair (i.e. optimization, whatever that means to various individuals), leaving character concept aside. If the OP just wants advice for the character moving forward, that's a different matter entirely.
On another note, maybe I've been on the internet too long. Dr. Deth's responses haven't been (strictly speaking) polite, but I think he's stopped well short of a personal attack. Back in the days of Usenet, this would have been considered a gentlemanly response to almost anything. :D
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@DrDeth:Dumping wisdom is rarely a good idea, and I never said it was, nor did I say dumping 2 stats was a good idea, but that doesn't mean the build is inherently Indecent.It's kind of hard to screw up a 2H Pally build, all in all. STR>CHA>CON>Rest, Power Attack, good to go. This build does that job well, it just has some pretty big weak spots.
That said, it's difficult to critique a build when character concept is being used as the reason for the build's most glaring weaknesses. Build critiques are almost always a by-the-numbers affair (i.e. optimization, whatever that means to various individuals), leaving character concept aside. If the OP just wants advice for the character moving forward, that's a different matter entirely.
On another note, maybe I've been on the internet too long. Dr. Deth's responses haven't been (strictly speaking) polite, but I think he's stopped well short of a personal attack. Back in the days of Usenet, this would have been considered a gentlemanly response to almost anything. :D
The point is that the critique doesn't help. I'm aware there are more efficient ability score spreads. If I redid this character optimized he wouldn't have two 7s or a 17. The ability score stuff has been done to death elsewhere. I've even said that my opinion of the optimal ability score for this guy was the 15,14,14,12,12,09 from earlier. That may be wrong, as the the 15,14,14,14,12,07 looks good or someone could go for the 15,14,12,12,12,12 if they really want someone who has "no weaknesses". It's just silly and counterproductive to mull over it in this thread again and again.
I'd rather the individuals be more productive and give reasonable responses like how to counter the builds weaknesses, such as a clear spindle ioun stone.
The point is that the critique doesn't help.
Not you specifically, no. It may help someone else, though, build their own Paladin without similar weaknesses.
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@Kurthnaga Seriously. Take Use Magic Device. With your charisma and the options it unlocks, you will not regret it. Ever. Only bother with Perception if you want to. You don't need it. You're tough, have good armor, and can heal as a swift action and then again as a standard action with an item or spell. You can further use items (accessed through UMD) or spells to compensate for points when you might prefer Perception. See Invisibility or Glitterdust is better than a perception check. Swim speed 30 is better than a swim check. Mirror Strike? Expeditious Retreat? True Strike? Shield? Detect(anything)? So many brilliant options. In the end, I know, you gotta do what you think will work best for you. UMD just opens the door to Wonderland, that's all I'm saying.
The Nodachi was a great suggestion. Especially if you want to push into Lead Blades and Enlarge Person tactics. 2d8 According to the PRD chart for one step, and I think it's 4d6(?) after that. The Falchion starts at d4's so it's a few steps behind, scaling to 2d6 and then 3d6.
Even though it's not strictly on the topic...
On to some responses I couldn't stop myself from making.
Look, I do have one "Min/Maxed" PC, a Hu Sorc with 12 con & 12 Dex but all the rest are 10- except CHA which is maxed. Not well rounded, and yes, i do play sometime him a little dim and foolish, but not enuf to be crippling or annoying
PFS = 20 pts:
18 CHA = 17 pts12 Con = 2 pts
12 Dex = 2 pts
Total buy = 21 pts...?
Also...why is your average intelligence character dim and foolish? He's the guy who got B's and C's in school. Maybe a D in that subject he hated.
To the OP:
1. Your stats are fine -- in fact, I recommend ignoring anyone complaining about dump stats, because PFS is (usually) a hack & slash campaign. .
You gave this same advice to a newbie wanting to play his first PC as a Paladin. You suggested a 7 Wis. The poor guy spent his first game:
Sitting out one entire combat due to failing a will save.
Getting conned out of all his cash to buy a cursed item as he couldn't make an easy Sense Motive- and now he's stuck with it.
Feeling left out because he could never make a Perception roll.In other words, IRL your advice failed completely
This brings up a really interesting discussion. Advanced play strategies are not always helpful to new players. They take the character they built in good faith and do not have the experience to keep it up and running. You put a child behind the wheel of a sports car and you will lose one or both quickly. That aside, there are some points I'd like to make about your statement...
- Sitting out one entire combat due to failing a will save.
-I ran a PFS Scenario at DragonCon that had 4 Fiendish Harpies as the first encounter. How many players do you think sat most of that combat out? Some of them had excellent will saves. You only have to fail once. It can happen whether you have +20 or -5. It is why saving throws are like Russian Roulette. Click. Click. Click. BOOM!
- Getting conned out of all his cash to buy a cursed item as he couldn't make an easy Sense Motive- and now he's stuck with it.
-This is going to have to be expanded on. PFS is very careful about how it uses/abuses player cash. You cannot give it to others, they cannot steal it, NPC's cannot take it. What module was this level one character on? Which encounter in that module? I smell bull manure.
- Feeling left out because he could never make a Perception roll.
-Not every character can do every skill. Like make any of the several knowledge checks, or diplomacy checks, for instance. If a particular skill is important to a player, they should be upfront about that and take special pains to enhance that area. Perception is not critical for the Paladin as a class. It's not even on the class list. Any Paladin who wants can take special pains to invest in that skill because that player chooses to. They won't be succeeding at perception checks very often anyway (unless heavily invested), and you can still roll a die untrained.
It honestly sounds to me like this individual wasn't playing the character they wanted to play, just one they expected to win.
The purpose of the wands are to give to a mage that will willingly buff you before you go adventuring, so you don't need to spend a bunch of rounds buffing.
This is not true. A lot of the better buffs cannot be used by the caster on someone else. Lead Blades on a wand has to be used by the Paladin to affect the Paladin. It is worth using your first action to do this. You can have the spell dropped into an Ioun Stone and cast it from there as a standard action, but either way you are still buffing yourself for a standard action. The wizard probably has something better planned.
*I agree, do not fall into a buffing trap. Only apply the abilities you think you need to end the combat quickly with your team alive.Statistically speaking, that 7 is only halfway between average (10) and brain damaged drooling moron (3).
So, please don't try to use statistics as the only answer, every statistic can be manipulated to make any argument you want, usually. That's why people pay big money to companies to produce statistics proving anything you like.
A 7 is 5 points over being a feral animal. Animals can be quite capable. At Int 3 you can learn Feats! How you play your low intelligence character is up to you. Muscular difficulty like drooling and such is not from low intelligence but from actual damage to the brain itself. A lot of the stereotypes that get bandied around are from folks who have a disability. There is a difference between not being smart and being autistic.
As for Statistics Stats get used to convince people who do not understand statistics into believing whatever the people who do understand statistics want. Statistics are somewhat complicated mathematics (sometimes incredibly complicated) and like anything complicated, fairly obtuse. If you don't understand where a number comes from, or how the result was achieved (including information that would skew the results) then you do better looking that up then just blowing it off. In the end, though, the formulae and study of statistical models is valid, and exactly as accurate as the person constructing them chose. Don't malign the math because you don't get it. Fox News has no place in the world of information. (As a caveat, I don't know about the 15% figure being bandied about. I didn't look it up and have no real interest in its accuracy.)
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...@Kurthnaga Seriously. Take Use Magic Device. With your charisma and the options it unlocks, you will not regret it. Ever. Only bother with Perception if you want to. You don't need it. You're tough, have good armor, and can heal as a swift action and then again as a standard action with an item or spell. You can further use items (accessed through UMD) or spells to compensate for points when you might prefer Perception. See Invisibility or Glitterdust is better than a perception check. Swim speed 30 is better than a swim check. Mirror Strike? Expeditious Retreat? True Strike? Shield? Detect(anything)? So many brilliant options. In the end, I know, you gotta do what you think will work best for you. UMD just opens the door to Wonderland, that's all I'm saying.
The Nodachi was a great suggestion. Especially if you want to push into Lead Blades and Enlarge Person tactics. 2d8 According to the PRD chart for one step, and I think it's 4d6(?) after that. The Falchion starts at d4's so it's a few steps behind, scaling to 2d6 and then 3d6.
I wasn't actually really considering perception. At my tables we usually have 2-3 perception guys who invest a lot into the skill because of how the pros/old players bandy it about so much. Personally I've never gotten/lost a surprise round off of it when we had any reasonable expectation to see the thing. I was just curious as to where I could find the Seeker trait, it's a good one to know about.
I'm a huge fan of UMD as well, I've seen groups without UMD or a person with CLW on their spell list. Gets ugly quickly. I will point out carrying that many wands is a wee bit impractical, I'll probably stick to 3-4 wands at a time.
What do you think about the Vital Strike Feat after the dice increase build? Does it make it worth it? I've looked up the critical feats and critical focus seems meh, and what you build that in to don't really come up until you're a seeker.