I'd like to suggest something other than "Hey, look through these classes and their abilities. Make sure you note their hand sizes, preferred cards, and how many of each type of card you can have. Then, why don't you look through all these cards and find the ones that say "Basic" on them. Those are the cards you may choose from to build your starting character. When you are done, why don't you pass that pile onto the next guy so he can start his character."
Even if it's not included in the game, maybe some official Paizo PDF of the cards that new players have access to and a quick run down on each character. I want my players to go "oooh, I like the druid, and I think I'll start with these cards." Instead of that mess I described in the previous paragraph. I think it will really help the learning curve and the immersion factor (I don't want my players seeing all the loot that is available before we even play).
Depending on your character, your deck will look WAY different after a play or two anyway. Half of the monk's items will have been banished, and you'll have way more cards than you started with most times. I usually find that most new players can jump right in with the preconstructed decks, and learn enough about how the game plays to rebuild them on their own.
That's just been my experience.
Just to make sure, were you aware that the back of the rulebook had suggested decks for each of the characters? That's what I've used when introducing the game, and it speeds things up a lot. :)
Yes, I was put off by the fact that some of the items listed in the "Pre-Con" chars were invalid (Paladin has two elite Half-Plate listed and the Ranger has an elite Starknife, I believe). The Paizo team threw together the list hastily and did not bother to double check afterwards.
Plus, I'd rather not "throw away" one session as a learning session with every new player.
Depending on your character, your deck will look WAY different after a play or two anyway. Half of the monk's items will have been banished, and you'll have way more cards than you started with most times. I usually find that most new players can jump right in with the preconstructed decks, and learn enough about how the game plays to rebuild them on their own.
That's just been my experience.
It's a roll playing game, and my players love rolling new characters. If this were a session of PF-RPG, would you suggest they just start with one of the pre-mades?
Plus, I'd rather not "throw away" one session as a learning session with every new player.
I think if you talk to most board/card gamers, almost every new player spends their first game "learning" the game. You can explain the rules in depth before hand, but unless you actually SEE everything working, you won't really understand them. Unless you are talking about Glory to Rome or Power Grid, almost every game can and should be learned by playing (don't get me started on Glory to Rome).
We play games to have fun, and if you approach it with a good humor, learning/teaching can be just as fun as playing.
Also - I think those preconstructed decklists choices are a little wonky too, I believe I read that a dev put the starknife in the ranger's deck because he was left with very few other options after having built every other deck. Usually, I build a "basic" deck FOR each player before we start, and let them have imput on it too "Ok, so you are playing our Cleric, you'll have the innate ability to cast a cure spell, but I can put the cure card in here too, or would you rather be more offensive minded? You can buff too if you'd like."
As long as everyone is having fun and dosen't feel forced, everyone is winning.
[...] you'll have way more cards than you started with most times.You know you have to pare back down to 15 cards at the end of each scenario, right?
Yes. That's one of the basic tenants of the game. I'm just saying that picking up an extra 5 cards and "building your deck" back down to the minimum size afterwards still gives the player a lot of control over what is in their deck. Do you hate that starknife? See if anyone has an extra weapon. If no one has an extra weapon, beg and maybe they'll let you replace it with a basic weapon like a sling?
Yes, the pre-built decks have a few issues, that are easily solved.The easiest solution is just not to worry about the fact that a couple of the cards are non-Basic. None of the decks are anywhere near broken...
I hear you, Vic... but sometimes you run across those rules lawyers. =(
Yes, the pre-built decks have a few issues, that are easily solved.The easiest solution is just not to worry about the fact that a couple of the cards are non-Basic. None of the decks are anywhere near broken...
Also, in the context of an entire adventure path, what you start with is pretty irrelevant (or even in the context of just the first adventure, in my opinion).
Even the best basic cards will become redundant soon enough. Beginning with the 'perfect deck' will just mean that you wont make any changes for the first half dozen scenarios. It's kind of like starting a first level character with an extra 500gp in the RPG - it sounds like an enormous benefit, but by third or fourth level you're pretty much indistinguishable from where you would have been without the extra.
Just to make sure, were you aware that the back of the rulebook had suggested decks for each of the characters? That's what I've used when introducing the game, and it speeds things up a lot. :)Yes, I was put off by the fact that some of the items listed in the "Pre-Con" chars were invalid (Paladin has two elite Half-Plate listed and the Ranger has an elite Starknife, I believe). The Paizo team threw together the list hastily and did not bother to double check afterwards.
Whilst I think an acknowledgment of this exception (and the reasons behind it) would have been worth a comment in the pre-built decks section, I very much doubt your last sentence is true.
Chief Technical Officer
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I hear you, Vic... but sometimes you run across those rules lawyers. =(Yes, the pre-built decks have a few issues, that are easily solved.The easiest solution is just not to worry about the fact that a couple of the cards are non-Basic. None of the decks are anywhere near broken...
Yeah—they can check the FAQ, which will solve this with substitutions and trait adjustments. But it works fine as written.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Whilst I think an acknowledgment of this exception (and the reasons behind it) would have been worth a comment in the pre-built decks section, I very much doubt your last sentence is true.Just to make sure, were you aware that the back of the rulebook had suggested decks for each of the characters? That's what I've used when introducing the game, and it speeds things up a lot. :)Yes, I was put off by the fact that some of the items listed in the "Pre-Con" chars were invalid (Paladin has two elite Half-Plate listed and the Ranger has an elite Starknife, I believe). The Paizo team threw together the list hastily and did not bother to double check afterwards.
It's mainly that adjustments to traits—especially Basic and Elite—were being made right up to the last minute. It would not surprise me if the last change we made before going to the printer was the addition or removal of one of those traits.
I hear you, Vic... but sometimes you run across those rules lawyers. =(Why would anyone be a rules lawyer over a cooperative game?
We kind of have a 'rules lawyer' in our group. He's not obnoxious about it and it's nothing to do with trying to win or to be the best. He's just quite concerned about 'doing it right' - he likes to be sure when we play a game, we're playing it exactly as the author intended and it just bothers him if we make our own rulings on the fly.
(My tendency is the exact opposite - he's still reading through the rulebook, making sure he understands the intricacies, whereas I sat down and played without reading a single rule. I just followed the setup instructions, picked a character and then flipped to the turn sequence and started - it took me a number of scenarios before I remembered that the locations and adventures had special conditions and I was no doubt screwing up some of the encounter mechanics).
@Steve Geddes That sounds like our group. The just sit down and play thing. Sometimes I try to read a rule book and it's like, "Blah blah blah. Words." So, I figure just sit down and start playing.
I find it's a more efficient way to learn a game, although also more error-prone. Luckily, I play with a rules lawyer who can pull me up and explain what I'm doing wrong. :p
It's a roll playing game, and my players love rolling new characters. If this were a session of PF-RPG, would you suggest they just start with one of the pre-mades?
If you were trying to teach new players the ins and outs of role playing games, then heck yeah I'd give em pre made characters. I would only show them full character creation AFTER they had experienced playing the game first.
I hear you, Vic... but sometimes you run across those rules lawyers. =(Why would anyone be a rules lawyer over a cooperative game?
Some people's greatest joy in life is being right. I call those people "folks I don't want to hang around with."
Some people's greatest joy in life is being right. I call those people "folks I don't want to hang around with."I hear you, Vic... but sometimes you run across those rules lawyers. =(Why would anyone be a rules lawyer over a cooperative game?
WHERE ARE THE UP ARROWS!!? =P
I actually have all my characters (all 11) pre-made with the default layout, minus the blessings sitting in the character deck area of the box.
So if I start showing a new group of people how to play, their characters are already set to go, just have to add the proper number of blessings to their stack.
This also has the effect of stripping out a lot of the basic weapons, armor, items, spells from the leftover decks. So when adventuring, the chance of getting that +1 elite magic weapon is greater than picking up a basic dagger, for example since the basic weapons are not there. Gives the players a bit more of that "cool" factor in finding that special weapon or armor while adventuring.
I might do that. I've noticed that the loot/upgrade factor has been a big let down so far.
I might do that. I've noticed that the loot/upgrade factor has been a big let down so far.I actually have all my characters (all 11) pre-made with the default layout, minus the blessings sitting in the character deck area of the box.
This also has the effect of stripping out a lot of the basic weapons, armor, items, spells from the leftover decks. So when adventuring, the chance of getting that +1 elite magic weapon is greater than picking up a basic dagger, for example since the basic weapons are not there. Gives the players a bit more of that "cool" factor in finding that special weapon or armor while adventuring.
For me the occasional find of something cool while rummaging through all these normal weapons makes it far more rewarding. I would be underwhelmed by the magic longsword when most weapons I find are magic.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I actually have all my characters (all 11) pre-made with the default layout, minus the blessings sitting in the character deck area of the box.
So if I start showing a new group of people how to play, their characters are already set to go, just have to add the proper number of blessings to their stack.
This also has the effect of stripping out a lot of the basic weapons, armor, items, spells from the leftover decks. So when adventuring, the chance of getting that +1 elite magic weapon is greater than picking up a basic dagger, for example since the basic weapons are not there. Gives the players a bit more of that "cool" factor in finding that special weapon or armor while adventuring.
We recommend you don't build more than 4 characters (with the Base Set only) or 6 characters (with the Character Add-On Deck) at one time. The "benefit" of improving the odds of encountering non-basic stuff comes at a cost—you've got 60 cards that you *should* be encountering during play locked up in those extra character decks, which means that the diversity of cards you encounter as you play multiple scenarios will be lower than intended. That is to say, you're going to see the cards that you've got left more often that you should. You may even find that, a few scenarios in, you're no longer seeing new cards you want to acquire, and that may just be less fun.