I dunno, my previous group kept laptops at the table just for ease of looking up rules, spells, class abilities and the like. We had one guy who played games out of combat, but he was the barbarian so it was okay.
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a reasonable solution is speaking with your players and asking them to alter their behavior when they act in a manner that detracts from the overall fun or is simply rude/impolite to the GM and/or the other players
The one time it happened I asked away from the table if they were enjoying themselves. Turns out they just couldn't get into it, despite really wanting to.
True, if rather glib. What do you suggest for players for whom this is a repetitive or even somewhat unconscious behavior pattern?
has it been brought up to them that they are engaging in impolite behavior that should be changed for the sake of the group, good manners and fun?
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What do you suggest for players for whom this is a repetitive or even somewhat unconscious behavior pattern?has it been brought up to them that they are engaging in impolite behavior that should be changed for the sake of the group, good manners and fun?
In the case of my group, this has been brought up, repeatedly but the player in question simply does not seem 'get it' that they are being rude and disrespectful. To be fair, they do not have reliable Internet access at their own home, but still... Last time, after raising the issue twice, I actually had to go so far as to disable the wi-fi on my router. Seconds later, they had the nerve to complain that Tumblr and Facebook had stopped responding. When I informed them of why, they stated that was a 'dick move' and switched to using their phone. >.>
Now to be fair, I do had players who are able to continue paying attention and participating even when using their laptops. I certainly make heavy use of mine in the process of running the game (VTT, Combat Manager, Mind Mapping software, PRD, PDFs, wiki, theme music, etc). Likewise, I also have players who use their laptop/tablets to reference rulebooks, HeroLab characters, etc. Similarly, on those rare occasions when I get to play, I use mine to keep track of spells, notate important NPCs and plot details in our wiki, etc.
Thus, my problem is not with there being technology at the table or even people using that tech, but them becoming so engrossed (even in the midst of a fast-paced combat encounter) that they have no idea what's going on and cease to participate. The ancillary problems, of course, being that this distracts others, makes other feel it's OK to do the same, and it offends me to the point where GMing is no longer enjoyable.
Good call, LazarX, and yes mine does have MAC address filtering. At the time, however, I was starting to see red and that was the fastest resolution.
As for cutting my losses, I only really play with people whom I consider to be friends. It would be rather difficult to remain friends with this person if I uninvited them from one of the main activities we engage in as friends. :-\
Technology is a double-edged sword for gaming. It has been since the start. Internet addiction isn't restricted to gaming interruptions, it afflicts everything from watching movies to eating dinner.
The question really isn't whether tablets and laptops can interfere with gaming, they can, the question is whether on balance they add more or detract more from the endeavor. My own experience has been that they add a LOT more. So we welcome laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc. at our table. They are used extensively to research rules, manage combat, maintain character status and pass private notes around without the obviousness of exchanging paper across the table.
Back in the early 80s when personal computers were just becoming common my game group was mostly comprised of computer enthusiasts of one stripe or another, so we used to game with actual desktop computers on the table.
It has been my experience so far that cell phones have been the most egregious devices yet introduced when it comes to interrupting gaming activities. I remember the days when we used to game and the ONLY time a phone call would come to the table was a legitimate emergency. Now it is a rare session that more than half of the players don't get at least one call from a spouse, child or significant other.
what the-
yeah OP your experiences are your own
sorry, but where I play there are plenty of tablet/laptop users and the lion's share of them are solid and focused players
The one time it happened I asked away from the table if they were enjoying themselves. Turns out they just couldn't get into it, despite really wanting to.Then when happened? Did the player leave the game, or was the game adjusted to help him/her get into it - and if so, how so?
They stopped playing. It wasn't a matter of "oh this adventure is boring", just that, you know, some people have a harder time getting immersed in tabletop games. They might try again sometime in the future and make sure they dont have a laptop to facilitate getting distracted, but not for now.
what the-
yeah OP your experiences are your own
sorry, but where I play there are plenty of tablet/laptop users and the lion's share of them are solid and focused players
Most of mine are in the same camp; as I mentioned in other comments, it's really only once in a blue moon that someone with a problem joins the game, or on a particularly slow night that I catch a normally attentive player getting sidetracked.
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When I gm I have to use my laptop/devices just makes life so much easier. Out of respect when I am a player its just paper, pen, dice, mini. How to change someones behavior is beyond me though. I consciously noticed the drug addiction behavior some people have with their devices. They just cant put them down. Bugs me so much I decided not to own a cell phone. It helps start great conversations. Its shocking enough to make people put their devices down for a min and actually talk to the person they are physically sharing space with.
When one player upgraded to an ipad4, he gave his old one to the GM. The GM uses it for the game. There are people at the table who use laptops or tablets (me) for character sheets.
Here is one thing the OP could do: impose an XP charge for anyone who uses their devices for non legit reasons during the game. (for example, if they have a phone call and leave the table that is fine as long as someone takes their character sheet. If they start playing a game and totally ignore what is going on, they start to lose XP. It is up to the GM how much.
I have to admit we have had one bad player (the one with the new ipad), but he is always on top of the game. I always turn my wifi off, to conserve the battery.
People should get the hint about loss of xp at the end of the night when their characters are not at the same level as the other players.
I don't see it as any different than someone looking out the window, reading a magazine or chatting with another player about some movie they've just seen. As such, I think whatever the rules are regarding those other distractions should be acknowledged as applying to the iPad too. If messaging on your phone is a no no, then checking emails on your tablet should be too. If its okay to read Facebook pages when not your turn, then it should be okay to flip through a magazine.
I think practically, the first step would be to get the group to acknowledge that those behaviours are analogs (in my experience, people on computers are far too confident in their ability to pay attention to the world around them whilst doing so. As such, I don't think this step is necessarily trivial - I think that should be the starting point though).
Having established that, the next step is determining what's okay for your group. That may result in irreconcilable differences, or it may be easily fixed.
On the other hand, bringing a tablet to the table makes it possible for the player to meet the requirement of having all source books available. A requirement that is not feasible when 100+ pounds of physical books are involved.
Laptops take up a lot of room if you have multiple units in play. Pads would be ideal. Smaller than books, containing all the books necessary for play. This is why I want a Kindle Fire so bad. And it would look very Star Trek cool to have everyone using one... lol
Also, not being a laptop user, I do carry several books to each game session (I love real books), but using a pad of some sort would entice me to buy the pdfs as well as the hands on books.
You need a small laptop to have enough room at the table. Netbooks are, sadly, becoming ever more rare as, I think, focus lies on the screen size more and more.
The only time I see this is when the player in question isn't part of the current action. Unfortunately it usually seems to come up when the player has created a character so specialized in one particular skill set (usually combat) that they're completely useless outside of that. I don't blame them for being bored, I blame them for creating boring characters <shrug>.
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I have one player who had, until somewhat recently, sworn off all smartphones and related devices as 'stupid'. A few years ago he got his first smartphone though, and now he think they are okay. He's not fanatical about it, but now he owns one and generally uses it on the same level as the rest of us.
Except for gaming. Ever since he got that first phone, he's only ever half-way present during a session. Most of the time he will be text'ing or browsing and only be partially aware of what we're doing. Sometimes you even have to repeat his name a couple of times to get his attention.
It's pretty aggravating.
We don't want to entirely ban devices at the table, because there are also legitimate reasons to use them. Like for rulebooks, character sheets, and whatnot.
But etiquette-wise, it has left me wondering if this is because he is relatively new to the technology. I've had a browser and an email client on my phone since, like, 2000, so it's not like it's new and exciting for me. Or maybe he got caught up in the Facebook generation in ways we've yet to uncover.
It may be time to stage an intervention. :) (Or maybe not. He gets angry when you bring it up and doesn't see why checking messages real quick should be a problem. I guess he think he only spends a couple minutes per session doing it.)
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The definitive "this is a problem" marker for me is when it comes to their turn and they look up from the computer with a look on their face that tells me they have no idea what happened in the last round, and aren't prepared to take their turn.
At that point I will ask that, unless they need to look at something on their character sheet, they keep it closed.
If the party is split and one character isn't present or is otherwise unaware of what's happening, I don't care if they play poker on their iphones, it actually prevents them from metagame in that case.
Contributor
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I find the issue is less with the devices themselves and more with the people using them. I frequently GM PFS for folks who use laptops, particularly to keep their Hero Lab sheets open, and I myself usually use an iPad during sessions for initiative tracking and other bookkeeping things. The devices aren't a distraction at all in circumstances when the folks using them are truly invested in what's happening at the table.
On the other hand, I know players who are consistently distracted while playing -- for example, they're always talking about their other characters and looking up ways to improve them while playing in a completely unrelated game. It happens whether they've got a laptop or books in front of them.
Point is, it seems like a distracted player will be distracted. Devices probably just ratchet up the temptation because they offer so many ways to mentally exit the game.
Point is, it seems like a distracted player will be distracted
I think that this is definitely the case.
The game that I GM has 6 players. One of them is not really all that engaged. He would bring his laptop, not to run his character sheet or to reference books; he was playing games.
I DID end up banning technology at the table, but there was more going on than just the technology.
With 6 players and some of them, including this player fairly new to Pathfinder, 4-6 round combats were taking HOURS. Part of the problem was multiple players doing other stuff with technology at the table. This conversation (or one like it) was taking place EVERY ROUND, sometimes more than once in a round:
GM: "Sammy the Summoner, what do you do?"
Sammy: *looks up from playing Final Fantasy* "What? Oh. Ummm. Let's see... *looks at table* Okay, I'm going to cast Summon Monster."
GM: "Okay. What are you summoning?" *his archetype allows him to cast Summon Monster as a standard action*
Sammy: *Opens CRB to Summon Monster spell, then starts flipping through Bestiary* "Ummm... let's see."
Another house rule that I brought to bear at the same time was that if you are not ready for your round in combat, the GM can rule that you have chosen to delay while you choose your action. Then you can jump back into the initiative order when you are ready.
In other conversations, the most "serially offending" player has stated that he comes to hang out, that he's not really strongly interested in the game itself. I think that this, above all, contributes to his distraction.
-Aaron
Edit: To be fair, I also have players who are NOT distracted by their technology, but were annoyed by how long combats were taking. They were understanding of the new rules and supportive of them. Only one player was really "annoyed" by the change (the "serial offender" mentioned above).
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My group has started using technology at the table more and more. In some cases its a boon. In some its not. Given how comfortable I am with the paizo prd, its the best way for me to look up a rule if I need to, or to check a spell for an npc as a dm.
But I have also seen the distracting or inefficient side of using electronic tools. We had a player insisting on using a dicer roller instead of actual dice, and another who's character was on his ipad but that he constantly had to fiddle with to be able to do anything at all. These to me were disruptive. But then, people can be slow or disruptive at the table regardless.
So I have the following Rules at my table:
1. You must have a paper character sheet. No exceptions, you can build it digitally but you have to print it and have it on paper in front of you.
2. All dice are rolled on the table. No dice rolling programs.
3. If you are casting spells you must have either index cards, or printed spell cards for them (perrams spellbook makes this a real simple process).
4. If you are summoning creatures you must have a printed copy of thier statblock, same with your familiar/animal companion/mount/eidolon.
5. Absolutely no non-game related media of any kind (electronic or analogue) at the table during play. We generally take a food/bio/smoke break every hour and a half or so. If you want to show everyone the new trailer you are excited about, it happens then, if you want to check your email, it happens then. No texting, chatting, or phone calls during the game. If there is a call or text you have to answer, excuse yourself from the table.
And Most importantly:
5. When your turn comes up you must within a few seconds say what you will do. IE "I Will move to that guy and attack him. I will cast fireball here *points* I charge that guy *points*. However long it takes to resolve that is fine. But no flipping through books to decide on your spell, no time spent deliberating on actions, if you cant or dont declare your action immediately, you delay until you have decided.
I forbid laptops on the table, but iPads are permitted. It wasn't so much that people got distracted (my group's pretty well behaved in terms of paying attetion), but rather that I dislike cluttered tables and things that obstruct the view other than the DM screen.
Of the seven of us, five use iPads (myself included), and in truth they make gaming a whole lot easier and don't make the table look invaded; quite the contrary, in fact. They are for support, though, since I like the feel given by paper sheets, physical books, and dice. The only thing we roll digitally is iniciative.
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Well I quess It all depends on Your Group
My Group .... 4 People...Rotating Gm.. 3 PCs
We use laptops...Plenty of Room on the Tables and at the Desks..even with Food and Beverages..and we still have room for Minis and home made Battlemat...which is 36 x 96 inches..Oh and we can play mood music also
Electronic Records Keeping..includes
home madespreadsheet Character Sheets
Dundjinni and Campaign Cartographer 3 Maps
Myinfo CampaignTracking...
we did use a Projector to Display Graphics on Walls before. :)
Not Having to Printout Maps, Character Aides ...priceless
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One of the difficulties when a new technology is integrated into society is that we have no rules of etiquette to cover the situation. I've recently discovered to my chagrin that portable devices are resulting in players who are never more than partially "in the game".
It's one thing if players get distracted because the game is a bit tedious at the moment (although I'll swallow a whole live hedgehog before I stipulate that GMs have some kind of obligation to be "more entertaining than anything I could be doing right now on the Internet"). My complaint is about a more serious problem: when there's an intense scene and the GM and any pen-and-paper players are utterly committed, the guy who insisted on "keeping track of my character on my laptop/pad/device" is, at best, mildly interested... with a good chance of being totally distracted at any given moment.
Tell me your own sob-story of players who have to be yanked away from Minecraft or Facebook and reminded that their beloved characters are in a fight to the death... every round. Better yet, tell me what you think accepted gamer protocol should be - or what rules your own table has already adopted. While I concede that "no devices" is far too heavy-handed, I think we need some kind of mutual social convention stating that, regardless of the fascination of the shiny box in your hand, it is not polite to sit at a table with four or five gaming buddies and act like you're alone in the room. What are the limits? How much additional weight needs to be borne by the other, more attentive players? Keeping focus has to have some priority, doesn't it?
Simple. There are a few rules when i run games:
- Cell phone basket - All cell phones are placed in a basket that is within easy reach if someone calls a player (everyone knows that they should only be called in the event of an emergency)- IP ban. I ban everything on my router except the PRD for the duration of the session. If necessary i turn of wifi.
- If i catch someone playing a game, i ask them to stop it. Once. Second time they do that, they are no longer allowed to use electronic aid during play. If they have a problem with that, they can leave, i have plenty of players waiting to get into one of my games.
- If someone gets distracted by something it's the same deal. And if the person becomes obnoxious, i will ask them to leave.
Now, of course, if i notice that everyone is doing something to entertain themselves, that means i can't capture their attention. If a single player is doing it however, well, we're all adults, if he can't behave like one, he does not belong at my table.
I also tell this to all my new players up front.
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I run my game from my phone. From my freaking PHONE. This is the future. All thats missing is flying cars.
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I have 2 players who run their PCs exclusively from a laptop and a tablet. The tablet guy sometimes will play a game if he PC isn't involved in the scene but never seems distracted or unwilling to become engaged. I think it just comes from gaming with friends and we all enjoy each other company and don't need to be constantly 'wired in'. Hell even my friend's 19 year old daughter (a regular player) doesn't get distracted by her phone and when she gets the occasional phone call is annoyed with the caller! "I told you this is game day! Why are you calling me?!"
I love my players!
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I play in both PFS chronicles and homebrew games. If the game is interesting, I'm not even going to look at my phone.
If the game is boring, or somebody is taking forever on their combat turns, or the GM has to look up an ability for an NPC we're fighting, or two people are resolving a rules question that doesn't apply to me, or I have a combat-oriented character and there's a long conversation going on about regional politics, or I have a non-combat character and we're in combat and I've already buffed everyone and I'm just tossing a magic missile every round, then yes, I will check my phone, or play a low-thought game on my kindle fire. I'm good at multi-tasking and can divide my attention quite well.
Additionally, I have PDF resources on my kindle fire and on my laptop, hero lab with a crapload of extra RPG modules on my laptop, and a fairly complete Pathfinder app on my phone.
I'm of the opinion, as both a player and sometime GM, that if people are looking at electronic devices during the game, it's either a time where they don't need to pay attention, or the game session is not exciting and dynamic and it's not interesting to them, or they don't really want to be there anyway.
EDIT: And if I was in a group that had a cell phone basket and IP bans, I wouldn't be in that group. I also would not be in a group that required us to arrive at the game in horsedrawn carriage or Model T.
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specific individual experiences are
individual
and
specific
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My netbook is great and weighs far less than any of the PF books.
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My netbook is great and weighs far less than any of the PF boobs.
*snnrrrrrkkkk*
Damnit.
Yeah, there is no time when you don't need to pay attention. If you came to game, stop looking at other stuff and killing the fun for everyone else.
While I find it admirable to maintain attention 100% of the time, if something is happenening and your character is not physically there, I don't require my players to mentally be there. They need to be able to jump back in as soon as I say "Now back to _____", however.
In some cases that actually makes a more authentic experience.
One of the difficulties when a new technology is integrated into society is that we have no rules of etiquette to cover the situation. I've recently discovered to my chagrin that portable devices are resulting in players who are never more than partially "in the game".
It's one thing if players get distracted because the game is a bit tedious at the moment (although I'll swallow a whole live hedgehog before I stipulate that GMs have some kind of obligation to be "more entertaining than anything I could be doing right now on the Internet"). My complaint is about a more serious problem: when there's an intense scene and the GM and any pen-and-paper players are utterly committed, the guy who insisted on "keeping track of my character on my laptop/pad/device" is, at best, mildly interested... with a good chance of being totally distracted at any given moment.
Tell me your own sob-story of players who have to be yanked away from Minecraft or Facebook and reminded that their beloved characters are in a fight to the death... every round. Better yet, tell me what you think accepted gamer protocol should be - or what rules your own table has already adopted. While I concede that "no devices" is far too heavy-handed, I think we need some kind of mutual social convention stating that, regardless of the fascination of the shiny box in your hand, it is not polite to sit at a table with four or five gaming buddies and act like you're alone in the room. What are the limits? How much additional weight needs to be borne by the other, more attentive players? Keeping focus has to have some priority, doesn't it?
Hi.
I agree with your story, I've seen this again and again in recent years. Some try to deny it is an issue though. I guess they think the tech should be always there, regardless of the consequences.
I have one player who had, until somewhat recently, sworn off all smartphones and related devices as 'stupid'. A few years ago he got his first smartphone though, and now he think they are okay. He's not fanatical about it, but now he owns one and generally uses it on the same level as the rest of us.
Except for gaming. Ever since he got that first phone, he's only ever half-way present during a session. Most of the time he will be text'ing or browsing and only be partially aware of what we're doing. Sometimes you even have to repeat his name a couple of times to get his attention.
It's pretty aggravating.
We don't want to entirely ban devices at the table, because there are also legitimate reasons to use them. Like for rulebooks, character sheets, and whatnot.
But etiquette-wise, it has left me wondering if this is because he is relatively new to the technology. I've had a browser and an email client on my phone since, like, 2000, so it's not like it's new and exciting for me. Or maybe he got caught up in the Facebook generation in ways we've yet to uncover.
It may be time to stage an intervention. :) (Or maybe not. He gets angry when you bring it up and doesn't see why checking messages real quick should be a problem. I guess he think he only spends a couple minutes per session doing it.)
If he is distracted, and he is meant to be playing a character which now seems distracted, then have him miss his turn if warranted, and then have the monsters beat his char to within an inch of his life (he was after all, an easy mark). He might start paying attention. Or he at least has to pay some attention to genning a new char.
They can whine, and if they are not paying attention they get eaten, or killed by traps.
Playing the game without paying attention can be compared to playing spelunky without paying attention. A dm could step in, rub balm into their limbs and coo into their ear saying it is alright, I will protect you, but the player should probably die very quickly in dangerous areas/encounters.