Summary of Stealth, Concealment, Cover rules


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Having seen a previous thread on these forums discussing this, I thought I'd offer a summary of the rules. I think Pathfinder's great, but my biggest complaint is that they scatter related rules all over the place. The rules that went in to making this table are found in Vision&Light, Concealment, Cover, Stealth, and Low-Light Vision. I can quote the RAW sources (and sometimes combinations of sources) that went into making up the table, if needed.

Also, as far as I can tell I can't insert a table into a post, can't use tabs, and can't even use multiple spaces to line up columns. So I've put "|" lines in-between the columns, you'll have to copy and paste and re-format the table yourself. I even tried a full-blown HTML table format, no luck. Anyone know of ANY way to create or insert a table? I have many other rules-summary tables I'd like to post in the future.

I don't know ALL the spells, feats, and class abilities yet, so if anyone wants to add anything that also grants concealment, please feel free!

==================================================================

You can use Stealth when you have Cover or Concealment (C/C)

Lighting | Ordinary vision | Low-light vision | Darkvision
-------- | ----------------- | ----------------- | ----------------
Bright | need to find C/C | need to find C/C | need to find C/C
Normal | need to find C/C | need to find C/C | need to find C/C
Dim | grants Conceal | need to find C/C | need to find C/C
Darkness | grants Tot.Conceal | grants Tot.Conceal | need to find C/C
Su Darkness | grants Tot.Conceal | grants Tot.Conceal | grants Tot.Conceal

You can also use Stealth when using Invisibility or Hide in Plain Sight, even under Bright lighting conditions

Cover : something is in-between the observer and observed (walls, objects, creatures)

Concealment : undergrowth, smoke, fog, blizzard, etc.
And the spells : Obscuring Mist, Blur, Fog Cloud, Solid Fog, Acid Fog, etc.


No, Hide in Plain Sight only let you use stealth when someone is watching you. You still need C/C or:

- be in your favored terrain and have the Camouflage abilit = Ranger
- be within 10 feet of an area of dim light = Shadowdancer
- be within 10 feet of some sort of shadow = Assassin

This is also why the advanced rogue talant "Hide in Plain Sight" isn't that good. Because rogues don't get Camouflage so they still ned C/C.


Zark -

Would this be better : "you can also use Stealth if you have Hide in Plain Sight, and you are in the appropriate conditions for your class"?

The rogue's version says "while within that terrain, she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed". Which to me says the rogue doesn't need C/C when in the favored terrain. It doesn't explicitly say she has C/C, but it does specifically say she can use Stealth. Can you please clarify why you say she would still need C/C?

Thanks!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Zark, for the purposes of class abilities shadows and dim light are the same thing. This was clarified by game developers long ago.


The task of summarizing the Stealth rules is impossible as the rules have gaps and conflicts. If you may want to include those for how to enter Stealth while observed, yet without special Class Abilities:

Stealth Skill wrote:
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Stealth Skill wrote:

Creating a Diversion to Hide

You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.

Note: The Action to do this is undefined. When the Action is successful, what is exactly gained is also undefined.

There are two Classes that I am aware of that modify this action. How each one interacts with the undefined Creating a Diversion to Hide Action creates oddities:

Heretic(Inquisitor 1) - Judgement(Escape) allows Diversion as a Move Action, but requires a Standard to use.

Street Performer(Bard 5) - Quick Change allows Diversion as a Swift Action.

It seems that RAW, the Heretic has but a 5'Step to find Cover/Concealment while making a Stealth check. If the Heretic is allowed actual movement from the Move Action to create a Diversion, then the Street Performer would also be granted movement from its Swift Action to do the same. In this second case, how much movement is expected from a Diversion? Would the Street Performer retain their Move Action, but be denied being able to use it for movement; or would it be extra movement?

Being able to answer these questions informs how to adjudicate Creating a Diversion to Hide for those that do not have any ability to modify its use. It needs be FAQed.


Ravingdork wrote:
Zark, for the purposes of class abilities shadows and dim light are the same thing. This was clarified by game developers long ago.

I just copied and pasted from the PRD.

Do you have a link to the clairification?

The real problem is the rogue andvance talent. The rules are unclear and the best.


ZenFox42 wrote:

Zark -

Would this be better : "you can also use Stealth if you have Hide in Plain Sight, and you are in the appropriate conditions for your class"?

The rogue's version says "while within that terrain, she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed". Which to me says the rogue doesn't need C/C when in the favored terrain. It doesn't explicitly say she has C/C, but it does specifically say she can use Stealth. Can you please clarify why you say she would still need C/C?

Thanks!

You can't 'enter' Stealth while observed. HIPS helps you with that.

Ranger gets Camouflage before HIPS. Camouflage lets him use stealth even if there are no cover, but he still can't enter stealth while observed until he gets HIPS.

HIPS says you can use stealth even if you are observed if you are in your favoured terrain. It does not says you don't need C or C.

Abilities are just like spells. They do what they say they do. Nothing more, nothing less.

The problem of the HIPS rogue talent was pointed out by many when ultimate combat was published.


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The way I understand it, paraphrased, is that:

Qualifying to attempt stealth:
Each of the following conditions must be met to attempt stealth.
1) You cannot stealth against creatures while being observed by them
1a) Exception: When a creature is momentarily distracted, this requirement can be ignored at a penalty [See: Bluff].
2) You cannot stealth while running or charging.
3) You require cover or concealment to attempt stealth.
3a) Exception: When you begin your turn in with cover or concealment, a successful check allows you to maintain stealth until the end of your turn (or it is otherwise broken).
3b) Exception: When a creature is not affected by your source of cover or concealment (i.e. it uses Crystal Sight against stone walls, Door Sight against doors, Gaze of Flames against smoke, Darkvision or see in darkness against darkness, Goz mask against mists and fogs), that particular element will not allow you to stealth against the creature.

Ignoring stealth:
Certain abilities may allow creatures to negate the benefit of another creature's stealth. Some common examples include creatures with Blindsight, Blind Sense, Tremorsense, Life Sight, and creatures with Scent that are adjacent to the stealthed creature.

Breaking stealth:
1) You cannot stealth while running or charging.
2) When a stealthed creature makes an attack (generally described as an effect that targets a creature or the square a creature occupies) its stealth breaks once the attack has resolved.
2a) Exception: Characters can Snipe, which allows stealth to remain unbroken.
2b) Exception: "Simultaneous" attacks break stealth after all of them are made; for example, all attacks from scorching ray and Manyshot are resolved before stealth is broken.]

There is a bunch of abilities that can alter or negate the above restrictions. Common examples include:

With Camouflage, you can attempt to Stealth without cover or concealment when you are in your favored terrain. [Note that this ability does not allow you to stealth while being observed.]

With Hide in Plain Sight, you can attempt to stealth while being observed. [Note that this ability does not allow you to stealth without cover or concealment.]

With Hellcat Stealth, you can treat bright and normal illumination as if it were concealment for the purposes of attempting to stealth.

With Silent Hunter, it is possible to stealth while running.

I look forward to your corrections and arguments! :D

Although I usually allow my players to stealth while being observed : p


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zark wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Zark, for the purposes of class abilities shadows and dim light are the same thing. This was clarified by game developers long ago.

I just copied and pasted from the PRD.

Do you have a link to the clairification?

The real problem is the rogue andvance talent. The rules are unclear and the best.

Here you go, straight from the game's creator.


ZenFox42, I may be messing this up but I don't think you're treating Low-Light vision correctly. That doesn't give you the ability to see through dim light as though it were normal lighting, it merely doubles the effective range of illumination that light sources would have on an otherwise dim / dark area. So, for example, a torch provides bright light out to 20 ft and dim light out another 20 ft beyond that for a total of a 40 ft radius of illumination. If the light from a torch is being viewed by a character with low-light vision, the bright light shines in a 40 ft radius, with additional illumination to dim light level out another 40 ft for a total illumination radius of 80 ft for that character.
As per the rules, dim light allows a creature to make a stealth check as if they had concealment. As such, low-light vision negates this and requires the creature find another form of cover/concealment ONLY if the creature attempting to hide is within twice the radius of a single source of active light. So, for example, if this all takes place in a pitch-black cavern and the creature is hiding 90 ft away from a character with a Daylight spell going, that creature has concealment and can hide. If a character there has low-light vision, however, the creature attempting to hide cannot do so against that character unless they have a separate form of cover or concealment letting them do so.


Cerberus Seven wrote:

ZenFox42, I may be messing this up but I don't think you're treating Low-Light vision correctly. That doesn't give you the ability to see through dim light as though it were normal lighting, it merely doubles the effective range of illumination that light sources would have on an otherwise dim / dark area. So, for example, a torch provides bright light out to 20 ft and dim light out another 20 ft beyond that for a total of a 40 ft radius of illumination. If the light from a torch is being viewed by a character with low-light vision, the bright light shines in a 40 ft radius, with additional illumination to dim light level out another 40 ft for a total illumination radius of 80 ft for that character.

As per the rules, dim light allows a creature to make a stealth check as if they had concealment. As such, low-light vision negates this and requires the creature find another form of cover/concealment ONLY if the creature attempting to hide is within twice the radius of a single source of active light. So, for example, if this all takes place in a pitch-black cavern and the creature is hiding 90 ft away from a character with a Daylight spell going, that creature has concealment and can hide. If a character there has low-light vision, however, the creature attempting to hide cannot do so against that character unless they have a separate form of cover or concealment letting them do so.

Yep. All true.


There are even exceptions to low-light vision.

“Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.”’

So on a moonlit night, no concealment.


Cerebrus, the RAW line that Zark just quoted means that if there is no *point source* of Dim light (like moonlight, which the RAW says is Dim light, as is a starry night), creatures with low-light vision can see "as well as they can during the day". Whether you take that to mean Normal or Bright lighting conditions doesn't matter - someone cannot use Stealth in front of a creature with LLV as long as Dim lighting conditions exist, which can happen in situations other than twice the radius of a single active light source.

That may technically be an "interpretation" of the rules, but one that I think is perfectly reasonable, and justified because A)the LLV rules say what Zark quoted, and B)the Vision&Light rules define moonlight to be Dim lighting conditions. QED.


(A note added 30 minutes later - please see my post after next ["This is a request to everyone..."], it addresses some of the points I originally raised here.)

Zark, I want to point out that I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't understand what points you're trying to make, so I'm seeking clarification.

Zark : "You can't 'enter' Stealth while observed."
I understand that. That's why I said "You can use Stealth if you have C/C" (subject to all the exceptions provided by class special abilities, etc.). Needing C/C implies that you are under observation, otherwise you wouldn't need to use Stealth. I don't see any disagreement.

Zark : "Camouflage lets him use stealth even if there are no cover, but he still can't enter stealth while observed until he gets HIPS."
The RAW for Ranger Camouflage says "A ranger of 12th level or higher can use the Stealth skill to hide in any of his favored terrains, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment." I don't understand your point here at all - the RAW say he can use Stealth without C/C (in the right terrain, of course). Period. That to me implies he's under observation, because why would he need to Stealth if he wasn't being observed?

Zark : "HIPS says you can use stealth even if you are observed if you are in your favoured terrain. It does not says you don't need C or C. "
That's why I suggested "you can use Stealth if you have Hide in Plain Sight, and you are in the appropriate conditions for your class" - it says nothing about needing C/C. I don't see any disagreement.
Wait - or are you saying that you additionally need C/C if you have HIPS? That doesn't seem to make sense - if you can "use Steath even if you are observed", the need for C/C seems to be irrelevant.


Troubleshooter - that's a great way to try and organize the Stealth rules, and just confirms the saying that (any kind of) D&D is a game of exceptions to the rules. :)

Thanks for the list of spells/abilities that *negate* C/C, I hadn't considered those (except for Darkvision, of course). I've added them to my list.


This is a request to everyone - based on comments by Zark and Troubleshooter, I apparently "don't get" the distinction between "being observed" and "needing C/C". Troubleshooter said it most succinctly :

Troubleshooter : With Camouflage, you can attempt to Stealth without cover or concealment when you are in your favored terrain. [Note that this ability does not allow you to stealth while being observed.]
Troubleshooter : With Hide in Plain Sight, you can attempt to stealth while being observed. [Note that this ability does not allow you to stealth without cover or concealment.]

But as I said in a post to Zark, it seems to me that either one automatically implies the other :
1) If something says you can use Stealth without C/C, that must imply there's an observer (else why the need for Stealth?).
2) If something says you can use Stealth while being observed, that must imply that you do not need C/C (if it says you can just go ahead and use Stealth, the need to meet any other conditions such as C/C become irrelevant).

I would argue that the lack of mentioning "being observed" in Camouflage and the lack of mentioning the need for C/C in HIPS does not imply the claims in italics above, because the condition that IS mentioned implies the other condition.

I think the rules make much more sense if this connection is true.

But, can anyone please explain simply and clearly why everyone makes a distinction between the two (or equivalently, point out the flaw in my logic)? Thanks!


The flaw in your logic is that you assume concealment and cover require an observer. A pile of boxes provides concealment or cover whether or not someone is watching you or not. If you know the guards will be coming any moment, you hop into the pile of boxes and roll stealth. The idea that you could hop into a pile of boxes and hide while someone is watching you does not make sense.
Camouflage lets you hide without specific cover of concealment: you run around a corner, stand next to the wall and hold your breath, and the guards go running by, even though you are not actually hiding in/behind/under anything. As soon as you are unobserved, you can make yourself part of the environment, and it requires a successful perception check to notice you.
Hide in Plain sight means you have the Skyrim-esque ability to hide even when being watched, so you can actually jump into a pile of boxes while guards are watching, and in a few seconds they will say "It must have been a rat", forgetting that they saw you jump into the pile of boxes. Of course, they could still roll perception to search the pile, and you could still be found.


ZenFox42 wrote:

Cerebrus, the RAW line that Zark just quoted means that if there is no *point source* of Dim light (like moonlight, which the RAW says is Dim light, as is a starry night), creatures with low-light vision can see "as well as they can during the day". Whether you take that to mean Normal or Bright lighting conditions doesn't matter - someone cannot use Stealth in front of a creature with LLV as long as Dim lighting conditions exist, which can happen in situations other than twice the radius of a single active light source.

That may technically be an "interpretation" of the rules, but one that I think is perfectly reasonable, and justified because A)the LLV rules say what Zark quoted, and B)the Vision&Light rules define moonlight to be Dim lighting conditions. QED.

Actually, it's not quite that clear. Low-light vision's basic function is extending the radius of illumination effects for the viewer. The rules for seeing in conditions of uniform and natural dim lighting are somewhat less clear:

Universal Monster Rules wrote:

A creature with low-light vision can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of dim light. It retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

Format: low-light vision; Location: Senses.

Special Abilities wrote:

Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.

Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

So, you can see that the monster rules and the normal PC rules aren't in agreement on the moon-lit night part. What they do agree on is doubling the visible radius. It's pretty much up to your GM which version you'll go with, as the rule for PCs COULD simply be seen as an extension of the vision rules when it comes to the moon's capacity for illumination (for the record, I'm in favor of this more permissive ruling). However, sans such blanket lighting conditions, low-light vision by the rules does not allow you to spot something crouching in the shadows outside double the radius of the nearest source of illumination.

I'm not saying your chart was a bad idea. In fact, it's 93.33% correct under all circumstances, that I can see. This one particular situation is the sticking point, that's all.


ZenFox42 wrote:

(A note added 30 minutes later - please see my post after next ["This is a request to everyone..."], it addresses some of the points I originally raised here.)

Zark, I want to point out that I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't understand what points you're trying to make, so I'm seeking clarification.

Zark : "You can't 'enter' Stealth while observed."
I understand that. That's why I said "You can use Stealth if you have C/C" (subject to all the exceptions provided by class special abilities, etc.). Needing C/C implies that you are under observation, otherwise you wouldn't need to use Stealth. I don't see any disagreement.

You can “enter stealth mode” if someone isn’t observing you. It is actually one of the most common things to do when you use stealth. For example sneak past a guard, or if you are in a room and know someone soon will enter the room, or when you are scouting out a dungeon and suspect that you might enter a part of the dungeon where a guard or a monster is waiting or just standing.

Basically you want to be in stealth mode so they don’t even know you are there. HIPS don’t make them forget they just saw you.
ZenFox42 wrote:


Zark : "Camouflage lets him use stealth even if there are no cover, but he still can't enter stealth while observed until he gets HIPS."
The RAW for Ranger Camouflage says "A ranger of 12th level or higher can use the Stealth skill to hide in any of his favored terrains, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment." I don't understand your point here at all - the RAW say he can use Stealth without C/C (in the right terrain, of course). Period. That to me implies he's under observation, because why would he need to Stealth if he wasn't being observed?

That does not imply he's under observation. Normally you enter stealth when you are not under observation, because normally you can’t enter stealth under observation, see the example with the dungeon above. In fact a ranger with Camouflage can’t enter stealth under observation until he gets HIPS unless he can create a Diversion to Hide.

Here are the rules:

PRF wrote:


If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.
ZenFox42 wrote:

Zark : "HIPS says you can use stealth even if you are observed if you are in your favoured terrain. It does not says you don't need C or C. "
That's why I suggested "you can use Stealth if you have Hide in Plain Sight, and you are in the appropriate conditions for your class" - it says nothing about needing C/C. I don't see any disagreement.
Wait - or are you saying that you additionally need C/C if you have HIPS? That doesn't seem to make sense - if you can "use Steath even if you are observed", the need for C/C seems to be irrelevant.

C/c is not irrelevant. It is only irrelevant if you are a ranger with Camouflage and HIPS in your favored terrain or if you a Shadowdancerr/Assassin within 10 feet from Dim light. The Shadowdancerr/Assassin version of HIPS is a bit vague but was more clear in 3.5 so here is a quote:

wizards reference document wrote:


“Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.”

Here is the 3.5 wordning of the ranger abilities:

wizards reference document wrote:

“Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.”
“Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.”

Now, the problem with the rogue talent HIPS – as pointed out by many – is that the rogue still need C/C since she doesn’t get Camouflage.

ZenFox42 wrote:

Cerebrus, the RAW line that Zark just quoted means that if there is no *point source* of Dim light (like moonlight, which the RAW says is Dim light, as is a starry night), creatures with low-light vision can see "as well as they can during the day". Whether you take that to mean Normal or Bright lighting conditions doesn't matter - someone cannot use Stealth in front of a creature with LLV as long as Dim lighting conditions exist, which can happen in situations other than twice the radius of a single active light source.

That may technically be an "interpretation" of the rules, but one that I think is perfectly reasonable, and justified because A)the LLV rules say what Zark quoted, and B)the Vision&Light rules define moonlight to be Dim lighting conditions. QED.

Read Cerebrus previous post.

Dim light still provied concealment when you have LLV.

This:

Cerberus Seven wrote:


That doesn't give you the ability to see through dim light as though it were normal lighting, it merely doubles the effective range of illumination that light sources would have on an otherwise dim / dark area. So, for example, a torch provides bright light out to 20 ft and dim light out another 20 ft beyond that for a total of a 40 ft radius of illumination. If the light from a torch is being viewed by a character with low-light vision, the bright light shines in a 40 ft radius, with additional illumination to dim light level out another 40 ft for a total illumination radius of 80 ft for that character.
As per the rules, dim light allows a creature to make a stealth check as if they had concealment. As such, low-light vision negates this and requires the creature find another form of cover/concealment ONLY if the creature attempting to hide is within twice the radius of a single source of active light.

As pointed out by both me and Cerberus Seven ther are ecxeptions to the rules. One of them is “Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.”’

So on a moonlit night, no concealment, other dim light concealment.


The rules can be a bit tricky sometimes. I just recently got LLV explained to me, check out the link below.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxzr?lowlight-vision-does-dim-lighting-provide -any#1

and linked

In that thread Yora came up with this good explenation on why Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

Yora wrote:

I think low-light vision is best explained if you consider moonlight as a light source that creates dim light with an infinite radius.

With that in place, the generalization "low-light vision treats dim light as normal light and creates a new area of dim light at double the radius" should cover pretty much any situation.
There is a hypothetical range at which the moon provides only dim light for characters with low-light vision, but that range is outside the planet.


Thanks all for the recent feedback, it looks like the info I need is there, but it's going to take a few days before I can really digest it all, what with real-life getting in the way...drat! :(


I don't know if anyone's still monitoring this thread, but :

After having some time to look over what's been said about Camouflage and HIPS with respect to Stealth, my head started to hurt. I don't want this to turn into a discussion about that. I can search forums for more info, I'm sure it's been done to death.

Looking back at my original post, I realize now that my main point was how lighting and an observer's eyesight combined to determine whether or not other creatures had concealment (originally in order to be able to use Stealth, which I'm now abandoning). So, take two :

==================================================================

Lighting | Ordinary vision | Low-light vision | Darkvision
-------- | ----------------- | ----------------- | ----------------
Bright | no concealment | no concealment | no concealment
Normal | no concealment | no concealment | no concealment
Dim | grants Conceal | no concealment | no concealment
Darkness | grants Tot.Conceal | grants Tot.Conceal | no concealment
Su Darkness | grants Tot.Conceal | grants Tot.Conceal | grants Tot.Conceal

Other conditions which provide concealment include : undergrowth, smoke, fog, blizzard, etc.
And the spells : Obscuring Mist, Blur, Fog Cloud, Solid Fog, Acid Fog, etc.

===================================================================

Also note that the table says nothing about HOW you're in a particular lighting situation - whether you're standing under a moonlit/starlit night, or in the "extended" zone from a torch, if you've got Low-Light Vision and are under Dim lighting conditions, you can see clearly, so other creatures do not have concealment from you.

This was the intended "summary" - does anyone disagree with it? Thanks!


Perhaps I should have said, "does anyone *agree* or disagree with it"?
:)

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