[petition] Please revisit Diabolist requirements


Pathfinder Society

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It seems sensible to me to require the casting of the Lesser Planar Binding spell, although I would personally allow scroll (with dire consequences for failure chance) were it up to me. Beware calling for uniformity, as the classes are not uniform, but diverse, thus having diverse requirements. The balance for the harsher requirements is in the power you gain.

However, be careful, Mr. Harris, calling devils is an evil act!

Core Rulebook: Planar Binding, Lesser wrote:

...

When you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.

5/5

Baron Ulfhamr wrote:

It seems sensible to me to require the casting of the Lesser Planar Binding spell, although I would personally allow scroll (with dire consequences for failure chance) were it up to me. Beware calling for uniformity, as the classes are not uniform, but diverse, thus having diverse requirements. The balance for the harsher requirements is in the power you gain.

However, be careful, Mr. Harris, calling devils is an evil act!

Core Rulebook: Planar Binding, Lesser wrote:

...

When you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.

Casting a spell with the evil descriptor is not an evil act in PFS.

Shadow Lodge

Patrick Harris @ MU wrote:
Baron Ulfhamr wrote:

It seems sensible to me to require the casting of the Lesser Planar Binding spell, although I would personally allow scroll (with dire consequences for failure chance) were it up to me. Beware calling for uniformity, as the classes are not uniform, but diverse, thus having diverse requirements. The balance for the harsher requirements is in the power you gain.

However, be careful, Mr. Harris, calling devils is an evil act!

Core Rulebook: Planar Binding, Lesser wrote:

...

When you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
Casting a spell with the evil descriptor is not an evil act in PFS.

Even if it was, a single evil act does not an evil alignment make.


Dylos wrote:
Patrick Harris @ MU wrote:
Casting a spell with the evil descriptor is not an evil act in PFS.
Even if it was, a single evil act does not an evil alignment make.

I agree. Just citing precedent for my own case for necromancy

5/5

Oh, good, because what this thread clearly needed was more confusion.


My apologies. Back on track, then- why NOT waive said requirement, as done with Hellknights? Only because the requirement calls for the casting of a specific, high level spell, Lesser Planar Binding? I see your point, as this spell COULD be cast by another- especially in Cheliax.

I hope your answer is forthcoming, and you get the answer you seek

Scarab Sages 2/5 *

Just saw this thread and it got me to thinking...

I currently have an 3 Oracle / 3 Fighter / 1 Hellknight.

I have picked the order of the Gate for the Hellknight. If I get 3 levels of HK and pick a first discipline as Summon Devil (Monster Summoning V)...

Could I dip a level then into Diabolist to get an Imp.

The class requirements do say:
Special: Must have conjured a devil using lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding (or a similar spell) and successfully coaxed the fiend into performing a task longer than 1 day.

If we are dropping the coaxing for a day aspect, I think this meets the flavor and the intention. I am all over the Cheliaxian way for the character and an imp servitor would be too cool.

Does that also add an oracle caster level?

Silver Crusade 5/5

This may be a silly question. but in reading through this thread, the Diabolist gets an Imp as an animal companion not as an improved familiar?

How does this work? and What are the advantages of having an imp as an animal companion?

1/5

Massive HP boost and BAB advancement (can use it as a sort of rolling combat debuff with the poison, flanking, and invisibility), scaling and selectable skill points (turn your wizard into a true skill monkey since its' intelligence is so high compared to an AC), and you can use its' feats for a decent selection of alternate forms for combat or utility spell-likes.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

For my Egorian Academy specialist Wizard, the benefit was getting to have two imps (an improved familiar for flavor and the occasional UMD, and an AC for combat). But because of the late entry, I'm seriously debating whether the PrC is even worth it.

I still feel the entry requirements need to be clarified on the Additional Resources page.

Dark Archive

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Cascade wrote:

Just saw this thread and it got me to thinking...

I currently have an 3 Oracle / 3 Fighter / 1 Hellknight.

I have picked the order of the Gate for the Hellknight. If I get 3 levels of HK and pick a first discipline as Summon Devil (Monster Summoning V)...

Could I dip a level then into Diabolist to get an Imp.

The class requirements do say:
Special: Must have conjured a devil using lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding (or a similar spell) and successfully coaxed the fiend into performing a task longer than 1 day.

If we are dropping the coaxing for a day aspect, I think this meets the flavor and the intention. I am all over the Cheliaxian way for the character and an imp servitor would be too cool.

Does that also add an oracle caster level?

Summon monster is not a similar spell to planar binding and planar ally. And the summon monster from hellknight never lasts a day or longer. Which is still a requirement to take the class.

Scarab Sages 2/5 *

Victor Zajic wrote:


Summon monster is not a similar spell to planar binding and planar ally. And the summon monster from hellknight never lasts a day or longer. Which is still a requirement to take the class.

The current requirements are per Mr. Brock:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oz9s?Requirements-for-Diabolist-For-PFS-play#1 9
For PFS, the ruling to gain entry for the prestige class is as follows:

The assumption is that you have the ability to cast it and have then used that ability to cast it in the way the class dictates. So for Pathfinder Society, you'll need to be able to cast 5th level Wizard spells or 4th level Cleric spells. The "get the summoned devil to work for you for a more than a day" bit is hand-waved but the monetary cost associated with that part of the spell is not--it's assumed you summoned him and succeeded at getting him to work for you for more than a day, but you have to have spent the money to do it, in other words.

Per the earlier prestige class clarification, "spell like abilities qualify for early entry of being able to cast a spell...", it seems to me, this qualifies.

Even taken to the next step (for my current character), which goes with this post, lesser planar ally is on the oracle list and a scroll for the binding part could be personally used.

I think the aspects of the character are met technically, but also in flavor; I'm a dedicated follower in Cheliax that can summon a devil...

I still have 3 levels before this decision so maybe clarifications will be forthcoming either way.

Dark Archive

You do realize the rules you qouted say that you have to be able to cast the spell, right? If your oracle knows planar ally, you are good. If your oracle just has a Summon Monster V spell like ability, he doesn't qualify for the class. Summon Monster V is a very different spell from Planar Binding/Ally.

Summon Monster V (or any Summon Monster) does not meet the requirements for the class. You need to actually be able to cast Planar Binding/Ally in order to qualify.

How exactly do you think you adjudicate the "cost" part that explicitly is required, if you can use Summon Monster V instead of the actual spells? No one would ever have to pay anything if they could just use Summon Monster instead.

Mike is not saying that the requirements are changed to being able to cast ANY 5th level wizard spell or 4th level cleric spell, he's saying it's changed to be able to cast Planar Binding or Planar Ally. You can't take the bolded sentence out of context with the rest of the paragraph.


My level 1 can cast the spell. He just needs a scroll!

Dark Archive

With a Summon Monster II you can get a Lemure Devil. I think that it is pretty clear that SM II shouldn't get your into diabloist. Though using Planar Binding on a Lemure would.

Scarab Sages 2/5

Since it is stated that using a scroll is basically like casting a spell, can I use a scroll of planar binding and pass the caster level check to get this at level 6, or do I have to wait until I actually have the spell learned and inside my spellbook/spontaneously cast it at level 9/10?


Does Lesser Planar Binding count? I am curious to see how the scroll issue plays in, or hired caster for that matter (to call the creature for you).

Scarab Sages 2/5 *

Victor Zajic wrote:


How exactly do you think you adjudicate the "cost" part that explicitly is required, if you can use Summon Monster V instead of the actual spells? No one would ever have to pay anything if they could just use Summon Monster instead.

Mike is not saying that the requirements are changed to being able to cast ANY 5th level wizard spell or 4th level cleric spell, he's saying it's changed to be able to cast Planar Binding or Planar Ally. You can't take the bolded sentence out of context with the rest of the paragraph.

Lets walk through this again...perhaps I failed to describe this appropriately...<I'm sorry to ninja the thread>.

The original requirements, as specificed in the BoD vol 1...
"Special: Must have conjured a devil using lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding (or a similar spell) and successfully coaxed the fiend into performing a task longer than 1 day."

I could purchase a scroll(s) and attempt this with a lower oracle level...thus it is possible to succeed with this exact requirement, verbatum...outside of any other requirements. I assume it means me, so I couldn't hire a caster as (you) must have conjured...

Mr Brock has stipulated that The "get the summoned devil to work for you for more than a day" bit is hand-waved but you must be able to cast level 4 or 5 spells to qualify for the prestige class.

Per the FAQ, spell like abilities meet requirements for access to prestige classes; for this toon, the summon monster V spell like ability meets Mr Brocks requirement.

The cost for the service is clearly listed in the lesser planar ally descriptions for tasks greater than a day.

I'm only just turned level 8 but I need to take the other skills now for the other rank qualifications and this isn't an option until lvl 10 anyway; I'm trying to make sure it is a legal option via scroll casting...which this thread has kinda morphed into.


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Lesser Planar Ally and Lesser Planar Binding are Conjuration (Calling) spells, which among other things allow the devil in question to use its own summoning abilities and to pass through a Magic Circle vs Evil. Monster Summoning V is not. It is a Conjuration (Summoning) spell with a drastically shorter duration, and thus is not "a similar spell."

Scarab Sages 2/5 *

Bigrin da Troll wrote:
Lesser Planar Ally and Lesser Planar Binding are Conjuration (Calling) spells, which among other things allow the devil in question to use its own summoning abilities and to pass through a Magic Circle vs Evil. Monster Summoning V is not. It is a Conjuration (Summoning) spell with a drastically shorter duration, and thus is not "a similar spell."

huh?

The requirements for the class are:
"Special: Must have conjured a devil using lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding (or a similar spell) and successfully coaxed the fiend into performing a task longer than 1 day." If the devil (via lesser planar ally)chooses to go through the circle or not is irrevelent.

The Summon Monster V part only meets Mr Brocks requirement to cast level 4 or 5 spells.

5/5

Cascade wrote:
Bigrin da Troll wrote:
Lesser Planar Ally and Lesser Planar Binding are Conjuration (Calling) spells, which among other things allow the devil in question to use its own summoning abilities and to pass through a Magic Circle vs Evil. Monster Summoning V is not. It is a Conjuration (Summoning) spell with a drastically shorter duration, and thus is not "a similar spell."

huh?

The requirements for the class are:
"Special: Must have conjured a devil using lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding (or a similar spell) and successfully coaxed the fiend into performing a task longer than 1 day." If the devil (via lesser planar ally)chooses to go through the circle or not is irrevelent.

The Summon Monster V part only meets Mr Brocks requirement to cast level 4 or 5 spells.

Mr Brock's requirement to cast level 4 or 5 spells is because that is what you must be able to do to cast lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding as a cleric or wizard/sorcerer respectively. It may not be explicitly stated in the FAQ, but the discussion leading to the FAQ leads it to be implicitly stated that, yes you the caster must cast this spell and pay the cost to the devil for services rendered. Roleplaying through that casting/payment/service has been handwaved, as long as you are doing it.

Note this PFS FAQ pre-dates the FAQ on SLA's by a LONG time, so the language used did not specifically preclude something that was not even remotely on the table as sufficing at the time.

Scarab Sages 2/5 *

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Sniggevert wrote:


Mr Brock's requirement to cast level 4 or 5 spells is because that is what you must be able to do to cast lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding as a cleric or wizard/sorcerer respectively. It may not be explicitly stated in the FAQ, but the discussion leading to the FAQ leads it to be implicitly stated that, yes you the caster must cast this spell and pay the cost to the devil for services rendered. Roleplaying through that casting/payment/service has been handwaved, as long as you are doing it.

Note this PFS FAQ pre-dates the FAQ on SLA's by a LONG time, so the language used did not specifically preclude something that was not even remotely on the table as sufficing at the time.

So is using a scroll acceptable or not?

5/5

Cascade wrote:
Sniggevert wrote:


Mr Brock's requirement to cast level 4 or 5 spells is because that is what you must be able to do to cast lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding as a cleric or wizard/sorcerer respectively. It may not be explicitly stated in the FAQ, but the discussion leading to the FAQ leads it to be implicitly stated that, yes you the caster must cast this spell and pay the cost to the devil for services rendered. Roleplaying through that casting/payment/service has been handwaved, as long as you are doing it.

Note this PFS FAQ pre-dates the FAQ on SLA's by a LONG time, so the language used did not specifically preclude something that was not even remotely on the table as sufficing at the time.

So is using a scroll acceptable or not?

If you could already cast the spell, but wanted to pony up the expense of a scroll rather than cast it yourself for whichever reason...sure. I'd say go for it.

If it was to try and parse language to loophole the baseline requirement of casting the spell, no.

Scarab Sages 2/5

So that means that I can attempt to cast this from a scroll at level 5 to obtain this prestige class at level 6, saying that I already have the ranks in everything else?

Shadow Lodge 4/5

No. That's not even remotely what he's saying. In case the English isn't clear, your character has to he able to cast the spell him or herself, using his or her own spell slots.

If this much isn't clear, then we definitely need official clarification. Are you out there Mike and John? Y'all are our only hope.

Scarab Sages 2/5

Ok, this is what my question was about. I knew that you have to cast it, but did not know if you can cast it via scroll. I had already reversed my prestige levels from the previous page, but wanted clarification since someone had posted that a scroll was sufficient enough.

5/5

See, this is what I'm talking about. If the requirements are going to deviate from the norm--which they are, because the "norm" for PFS is to waive roleplaying requirements--then we need to document that in the place where we normally document that, i.e., the Additional Resources page.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Patrick Harris @ MU wrote:

As of 10/4/2012, it was clarified that certain requirements for the Diabolist are not fully waived.

First, on documentation: The Guide 5.0 says that "Roleplaying requirements for prestige classes (such as particular ceremonies or killing a devil) are waived in Pathfinder Society" and that needed adjustments are found on the Additional Resources page. From what I can see, the message board ruling has not made the transition to AR or FAQ, and the list of clarifications is now gone. This makes that information nonobvious, leading to confusion--people might make take Diabolist at 6th level, since all mechanical requirements are met at that point, only to find out later they were meant to wait until level 8 or 10 (the first level after they can cast 4th level cleric or 5th level wizard spells). Resolution of this is problematic.

It is resolved. The Campaign Guide is an authority in and of itself. Additional Resources are not the only guidelines for the campaign, they're supplemental to the Guide. If the Guide says you can do it, you're golden. The roleplaying requirement is waved and there are no further adjustments to that. Fulfill the other requirements and you're good.

Shadow Lodge

LazarX wrote:
Patrick Harris @ MU wrote:

As of 10/4/2012, it was clarified that certain requirements for the Diabolist are not fully waived.

First, on documentation: The Guide 5.0 says that "Roleplaying requirements for prestige classes (such as particular ceremonies or killing a devil) are waived in Pathfinder Society" and that needed adjustments are found on the Additional Resources page. From what I can see, the message board ruling has not made the transition to AR or FAQ, and the list of clarifications is now gone. This makes that information nonobvious, leading to confusion--people might make take Diabolist at 6th level, since all mechanical requirements are met at that point, only to find out later they were meant to wait until level 8 or 10 (the first level after they can cast 4th level cleric or 5th level wizard spells). Resolution of this is problematic.

It is resolved. The Campaign Guide is an authority in and of itself. Additional Resources are not the only guidelines for the campaign, they're supplemental to the Guide. If the Guide says you can do it, you're golden. The roleplaying requirement is waved and there are no further adjustments to that. Fulfill the other requirements and you're good.

Except that it's not resolved. Mike Brock trumps the guide, and he said that Diabolist's requirements are not waived, the biggest problem is that clarification that they are not waived is in such an obscure location that most players would never see the clarification.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Dylos wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Patrick Harris @ MU wrote:

As of 10/4/2012, it was clarified that certain requirements for the Diabolist are not fully waived.

First, on documentation: The Guide 5.0 says that "Roleplaying requirements for prestige classes (such as particular ceremonies or killing a devil) are waived in Pathfinder Society" and that needed adjustments are found on the Additional Resources page. From what I can see, the message board ruling has not made the transition to AR or FAQ, and the list of clarifications is now gone. This makes that information nonobvious, leading to confusion--people might make take Diabolist at 6th level, since all mechanical requirements are met at that point, only to find out later they were meant to wait until level 8 or 10 (the first level after they can cast 4th level cleric or 5th level wizard spells). Resolution of this is problematic.

It is resolved. The Campaign Guide is an authority in and of itself. Additional Resources are not the only guidelines for the campaign, they're supplemental to the Guide. If the Guide says you can do it, you're golden. The roleplaying requirement is waved and there are no further adjustments to that. Fulfill the other requirements and you're good.
Except that it's not resolved. Mike Brock trumps the guide, and he said that Diabolist's requirements are not waived, the biggest problem is that clarification that they are not waived is in such an obscure location that most players would never see the clarification.

It has been resolved.

The RP requirement, making the devil work for you for more than a day, has been, as normal for PFS, waived.

The non-RP requirement, that you be able to cast the requisite spell, yourself, has not been waived. The PC must be high enough level to have the appropriate spell in their castable without a CL check list, and, to be honest, I believe Mike said that a scroll won't cut it, so a spontaneous caster must have, at least for one level, the relevant spell in ther known spell list.


kinevon wrote:
The non-RP requirement, that you be able to cast the requisite spell, yourself, has not been waived. The PC must be high enough level to have the appropriate spell in their castable without a CL check list, and, to be honest, I believe Mike said that a scroll won't cut it, so a spontaneous caster must have, at least for one level, the relevant spell in ther known spell list.

I think you changed the definition of the requirement when you added the word 'yourself'. As written you just have to conjure a demon and get them to do a days work for you, but it doesn't say anything about casting it yourself or even casting it(though that sort of goes without saying.)

D20SRD wrote:
Special: Must have conjured a devil using lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding (or a similar spell) and successfully coaxed the fiend into performing a task longer than 1 day.

Grand Lodge 4/5

MrSin wrote:
kinevon wrote:
The non-RP requirement, that you be able to cast the requisite spell, yourself, has not been waived. The PC must be high enough level to have the appropriate spell in their castable without a CL check list, and, to be honest, I believe Mike said that a scroll won't cut it, so a spontaneous caster must have, at least for one level, the relevant spell in ther known spell list.

I think you changed the definition of the requirement when you added the word 'yourself'. As written you just have to conjure a demon and get them to do a days work for you, but it doesn't say anything about casting it yourself or even casting it(though that sort of goes without saying.)

D20SRD wrote:
Special: Must have conjured a devil using lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding (or a similar spell) and successfully coaxed the fiend into performing a task longer than 1 day.

The yourself was an addition because of Mike's statement that the PC has to be the caster, that a scroll wouldn't allow early entry.

Scarab Sages 2/5 *

kinevon wrote:
The yourself was an addition because of Mike's statement that the PC has to be the caster, that a scroll wouldn't allow early entry.

bear in mind that the developer of the class felt that using a scroll was a valid means however "sneaky".

Quote:

James Jacobs :

(NOTE: One way to sneak by the special requirement, of course, is to use a scroll of lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding. This is the best way to "sneak" into the class at 6th level, but it's a little tricksy and cheesy and some GMs might not allow it...).

Per Mr Brock, The requirement of casting a level 4 or 5 spell is still there to limit the minimum level to gain access, thus I still think a 3rd level Hellknight with the Order of the Gate Summon Monster V spell like ability meets the early access PrC criteria which couldn't get in until a minimum of level 9 and required to have the spell on a multiclass list to be able to use the scroll.

I still haven't seen the statement from Mr Brock (or any other developer or person of interest) that explicitly says using a scroll is not a valid means to meet the roleplay aspect of this or any PrC. If there is, is there a link?

For my case, I spoke with my VC over the weekend while at a Con...he felt it was a non issue;
The character at lvl 9 would have a 5th level spell-like ability
The spell lesser planar ally is on his list
The character will have to make the check with him, pay the costs for the scroll and the bargain.
Essentially if the Developer of the class said that was a valid means and there were no explicit rules saying it couldn't be done and it met the RAW requirements from any board FAQs for early PrC access, he was fine with it.

Even it someone later comes back and changes my and my VC's perception, it was more a roleplay thing for me and I'll adjust back.

5/5

kinevon wrote:
MrSin wrote:
kinevon wrote:
The non-RP requirement, that you be able to cast the requisite spell, yourself, has not been waived. The PC must be high enough level to have the appropriate spell in their castable without a CL check list, and, to be honest, I believe Mike said that a scroll won't cut it, so a spontaneous caster must have, at least for one level, the relevant spell in ther known spell list.

I think you changed the definition of the requirement when you added the word 'yourself'. As written you just have to conjure a demon and get them to do a days work for you, but it doesn't say anything about casting it yourself or even casting it(though that sort of goes without saying.)

D20SRD wrote:
Special: Must have conjured a devil using lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding (or a similar spell) and successfully coaxed the fiend into performing a task longer than 1 day.
The yourself was an addition because of Mike's statement that the PC has to be the caster, that a scroll wouldn't allow early entry.

So you acknowledge that it's a change.

Which means it needs to be documented in the place where these changes are documented: The Additional Resources. The confusion on this thread--despite the fact that the first post linked directly to the original clarification--is more than enough to demonstrate that people don't understand this ruling. It needs to be plainly spelled out in the place where these rulings are plainly spelled out, rather than buried in an obscure ruling thread that isn't even listed in a sticky anymore.

Dark Archive

Cascade wrote:
kinevon wrote:
The yourself was an addition because of Mike's statement that the PC has to be the caster, that a scroll wouldn't allow early entry.

bear in mind that the developer of the class felt that using a scroll was a valid means however "sneaky".

Quote:

James Jacobs :

(NOTE: One way to sneak by the special requirement, of course, is to use a scroll of lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding. This is the best way to "sneak" into the class at 6th level, but it's a little tricksy and cheesy and some GMs might not allow it...).

Per Mr Brock, The requirement of casting a level 4 or 5 spell is still there to limit the minimum level to gain access, thus I still think a 3rd level Hellknight with the Order of the Gate Summon Monster V spell like ability meets the early access PrC criteria which couldn't get in until a minimum of level 9 and required to have the spell on a multiclass list to be able to use the scroll.

I still haven't seen the statement from Mr Brock (or any other developer or person of interest) that explicitly says using a scroll is not a valid means to meet the roleplay aspect of this or any PrC. If there is, is there a link?

For my case, I spoke with my VC over the weekend while at a Con...he felt it was a non issue;
The character at lvl 9 would have a 5th level spell-like ability
The spell lesser planar ally is on his list
The character will have to make the check with him, pay the costs for the scroll and the bargain.
Essentially if the Developer of the class said that was a valid means and there were no explicit rules saying it couldn't be done and it met the RAW requirements from any board FAQs for early PrC access, he was fine with it.

Even it someone later comes back and changes my and my VC's perception, it was more a roleplay thing for me and I'll adjust back.

Again, you CAN NOT take the individual sentences of Mike's post out of context. They don't exist in a vacumn. The 4th or 5th level spell you have to be able to cast is either Lesser Planar Ally (4th) or Lesser Planar Binding(5th), or a similar spell, which Summon Monster V DOES NOT COUNT AS.

I don't see how you can honestly be reading that as Mike saying you need to be able to cast any 4th or 5th level spell. Mike is making a ruling regarding a very specific issue of the requirement to bind a devil into your service for a day. The spellcasting requirement he names is not something completely seperate from that.

If you can not, without the aid of a scroll, cast Lesser Planar Binding, Planar Binding, Greater Planar Binding, Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally, or Greater Planar Ally, you do not meet the requirements to take the prestige class. Gaining the ability to cast any 4th or 5th level spell or spell-like ability from any source does not satisfy the requirement.

Mike's spellcasting requirement isn't to limit early access to the class, the spell levels he mentions correspond exactly to the spells he says you need to be able to cast, or similar spell(which means the higher level versions of those spells, or a potential new Conjuration(Calling) spell that might be invented in the future). Mike is not adding brand new requirements onto the class, he is making a ruling about the specific requirement of forcing/coaxing a devil into service.
When read in context, he post is saying that in order to qualify for the class, a PC must be able to cast one of those two series of spells on their own.

Mikes post isn't unclear, despite some poster's insistance on reading it it in a nonsense way so that it benefits their PC more. It is hard to find, and until you find it, it is easy to think the requirements would let you use a scroll. I think updating additional resources to say you can't use a scroll is a good idea.

4/5

The idea is that the special (non-mechanical) aspect of the spell, as having successfully conjured and coaxed a demon into service via planar ally or binding being done, is enforced mechanically, by being able to cast one of those two spells, and paying the appropriate cost for doing so (which barebones minimum is around 2000gp, for planar ally, assuming you just summon the imp and have him do something non-dangerous, like hang out with you).

Mike Brock furthermore enforced that scroll is not sufficient, in that the requirement is to be able to cast 4th level cleric spells, or 5th level wizard spells. The reasoning behind this ruling can be debated, but it isn't unclear at all.

Personally I'd love to see the entry requirements be lowered slightly by allowing a spell to allow access, but I doubt it'll happen.

I think by far this PrC benefits single classed clerics the most, as they have no familiar/animal companion by default, and adding one is a great power boost, which they can take at 8th level (or more probably 9th after their 8th level domain power became active).


I am thinking we have an RAW vs RAI issue here.

If you look at this by pure RAW and the decisions and reasoning applied to allow early entry into Mystic Theurge the original poster is correct. However, I am unsure if that was Mr. Brock's intent here.

Scarab Sages 2/5

Mind the bump, but I was curious on this one thing. When I was looking at the Field Guide, I saw that the Cheliax faction has a prestige award that grants an imp via lesser planar binding.High assassumption that this will not work to get the prestigious class, but to make it official, this does not work as a prerequisite requirement, correct?

Dark Archive

I'm pretty sure with that boon someone else binds the imp for you, since you can take it as a fighter or whatnot.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Though with that vanity, it states that it acts as if you have cast the spell and bargained services of the imp, even though it could be said that someone else did.

Edit:
Though this could be used to make some prestige classes faction specific, which could be a good thing.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Additional Resources was updated:

Additional Resources wrote:
Prestige Class: Diabolist; to qualify for the diabolist prestige class, lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding (or a similar spell) must be on your class spell list

5/5

Nefreet wrote:

Additional Resources was updated:

Additional Resources wrote:
Prestige Class: Diabolist; to qualify for the diabolist prestige class, lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding (or a similar spell) must be on your class spell list

That'll work, then.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

I suppose that means a 5th level Cleric or Wizard now qualifies to become a Diabolist.

Dark Archive

I don't think the update invalidates the earlier ruling about needing to be able to cast the spell. It does stop people who think that a summon monster V spell like ability somehow qualifies them for the class though.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Victor Zajic wrote:
I don't think the update invalidates the earlier ruling about needing to be able to cast the spell.

Isn't that exactly what updates do?

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Victor Zajic wrote:
I don't think the update invalidates the earlier ruling about needing to be able to cast the spell. It does stop people who think that a summon monster V spell like ability somehow qualifies them for the class though.

That would mean that, instead of answering the question we asked, they chose to answer one poster's ridiculous tangent statement about Hellknights. That seems odd.

5/5 *

Answer here

You still need to be able to cast the spell.

Dark Archive

Nefreet wrote:
Victor Zajic wrote:
I don't think the update invalidates the earlier ruling about needing to be able to cast the spell.
Isn't that exactly what updates do?

Updates CAN do that, but that doesn't mean that all updates do so.

5/5

The new language in the AR makes it very clear that you have to cast the spell from your own slots, which means you have to have paid the money if there is any. So it's no longer ambiguous.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dylos wrote:

Even if you do need to be level 9 for wizard or 7 for cleric before entering into Diabolist, wouldn't you be able to retrain into the PrC after fulfilling the requirement?

PrC's can not be used to qualify for themselves.

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