|
2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
|
Crane Riposte (Combat)
Quote: Benefit: You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. Whenever you use Crane Wing to deflect an opponent’s attack, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent after the attack is deflected. Zen Archer's Reflexive Shot
Quote: At 9th level, a zen archer can make attacks of opportunity with arrows from his bow. The monk still threatens squares he could reach with unarmed strikes, and can still only make one attack of opportunity per round (unless he has Combat Reflexes). So it seems like per RAW these two abilities/feats would work together allowing a zen archer to deflect an attack and the make an attack of opportunity with his bow.
I guess I want to know if there is a FAQ ruling that has found that the attack of opportunity used for Crane Riposte has to be a melee attack or even worse (unarmed attack).
I am making a build and I want to be overly cautious to avoid any rule problems.
There is no ruling that I know of that means you can't deflect an attack and make an AoO with a bow.
I do not know cause you need a free hand to use crane wings, You do not have a free hand if you are using a bow to make AoO.
You do have a free hand, the arrow isn't in your hand until you draw it as a free/non action.
ArmouredMonk13 wrote: You do have a free hand, the arrow isn't in your hand until you draw it as a free/non action. you are still using the hand for something else besides deflecting the attack.
You might be right, but is does not seems to be clear cut.
It's not that clear cut. But I could easily see a GM ruling against it, "you either have time to deflect the attack or take the AoO" feels like the right interpretation to me if I were the GM but others may vary!
The arrow is part of a non-action, per the (actions) section of the PRD. However, you can not use both, as using a bow is a 2 handed weapon, thus you lose the ability to wield a bow when you decide you have a free hand to deflect attacks with.
David_Bross wrote: The arrow is part of a non-action, per the (actions) section of the PRD. However, you can not use both, as using a bow is a 2 handed weapon, thus you lose the ability to wield a bow when you decide you have a free hand to deflect attacks with. Are you not considered to be using the bow two-handed the moment you draw an arrow?
If so, why could you not deflect then use a non-action to draw an arrow and then take an AoO. This issue may have already been hashed out somewhere. However, I am having trouble following your logic.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Driver 325 yards wrote:
Are you not considered to be using the bow two-handed the moment you draw an arrow?
I would not considered you to be wielding a bow if you are not dedicating 2 hands to the task. Just as I would not consider you to be wielding a greatsword if you were carrying it in one hand.
Crane Wing requires you have a free hand. I have to believe the intention of requiring a free hand was to prohibit wielding a 2 handed weapon/two weapon fighting.
I don't mind you making a ranged attack with an AoO, but to make it with a weapon you are not wielding with the required number of hands when the AoO is triggered, is a nonstarter. If it makes you feel better I'd say the same thing to great sword wielder. Who want to leave a hand off his weapon for cranestyle but still make AoO with it.
Bows are not like greatswords. Bows are held in one hand and with an arrow in the other hand. Thus, that is why you need to hands for a bow.
To hold the bow, you only need one hand.
So, the moment that you notch the bow with the arrow, you are using two hands.
Once the arrow is let loose, you are no longer using two hands.
Between each shot you have one hand free. Once you finishes your full attack you have one hand free. You don't hold a bow with two hands. I thought every knew this.
So, you are adding a requirement to crane wing that does not exist. I guess you are making a RAI argument. So having a hand free does not actually mean having a hand free, it means having a hand that is not 100% of the time "dedicated" to the bow.
Well, I guess you can play it that way in your own games. I am not interested in hearing a RAI argument. I am interested in RAW.
If reflexive shot required you to not use either of your hands for other actions in order to make an AoO with a bow, then I would go with your argument. However, it doesn't.
So I guess the answer to my question is that there is no ruling against the RAW.
I will note the RAI argument and go ahead with my build.
RAW, bows are listed under the "two-handed weapon" category. That's unambiguous--that's where they are on the chart.
Your arguments, drawing on how bows are shot in the real world, about whether a hand is free when you don't have arrows in it are actually going into interpretation of possible RAI.
It should work if there's a viable one-handed bow that counts for Reflexive Shot, though, or if you get more arms somehow (girallon beast shape?).
A bow is a two-handed weapon. You can switch from wielding a bow to carrying it in one hand as a free action on your turn. This means that, at the end of your actions, you have to declare whether you are wielding the bow or not.
You cannot do this when it is not your turn. Therefore, since Crane Riposte requires you to have a hand free and Reflexive Shot requires that you be wielding a bow, you cannot use them simultaneously unless you can somehow come up with three or more hands.
Actually... light, one-handed, and two-handed are categories of melee weapons. If you look at any of the weapon charts, you'll find that "ranged weapons" are segregated from the light, one-handed, and two-handed melee weapons. The only ranged weapons that have explicit one and two-handed categories are firearms. Bows have a clause that they require two hands to use regardless of size.
However, using Crane Wing means you must keep one hand free for the entire duration of the benefit so you cannot even use that hand to nock your arrow and operate the bow because the AoO is part of the Crane Wing benefit and if you tried using both hands to take your AoO, one hand is no longer free so you don't get the AoO. So it's still a no-go.
If someone could please point me (in the rules) to where it says that one hand free means one hand free for the entire round or one hand free at the end of your turn.
That is as opposed to one hand free after you have finished shooting.
Also, drawing an arrow is a non-action not a free action.
So if it were a free action, I would see your argument
If it were an immediate action I would see how you could only block and notch the arrow for an attack of opportunity once.
However, it is a non-action. So, I just don't see why you can't block and then spend a non-action to draw the arrow and fire a shot.
So the action would go as follows:
1) Finish you full attacks and you no longer have one hand on the bow.
2) Block with your free hand (Crane Wing)
3) Spend a non-action (which is better than an immediate action) to draw and arrow and fire an AoO.
I am still not seeing why this does not work. Convince me by explaining away the non-action part of this scenario. Maybe I don't understand non-actions. It seems like everyone is fine with step one and two.
Just Asking-- does the Crane Wing require a *hand* to perform?
Because Zen Archers can do unarmed strikes (and defenses) with their feet, while holding their bow 2-handed-- without penalty.
Driver 325 yards wrote: If someone could please point me (in the rules) to where it says that one hand free means one hand free for the entire round or one hand free at the end of your turn. PRD wrote: Crane Wing (Combat)
You move with the speed and finesse of an avian hunter, your sweeping blocks and graceful motions allowing you to deflect melee attacks with ease.
Prerequisites: Crane Style, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +5 or monk level 5th.
Benefit: Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.
"When you have at least one hand free and either fighting defensively or using the total defense action..."
You must have 1 hand free while you fight defensively or use the total defense action in order to qualify for Crane Wing. If you're using a weapon that requires 2 hands to use, whether it's a Bow or a 2-h melee weapon or a 1-h melee weapon wielded in two hands or a melee weapon in each hand, your hand isn't free. Your second hand on a bow isn't incidental; it's pulling the bowstring, not just nocking the arrow but still considered free. Moreover, even if you were to make your attack with a 1-h weapon on your turn, drop it as a free action, and draw your bow, you still must maintain your free hand to qualify for Crane Wing so using that hand to operate your bow, even for the brief instant to make an AoO, is still occupying that hand to utilize a weapon when that hand is supposed to be busy deflecting away the incoming attack. Drawing ammo and nocking the arrow to the string may be non-actions, but drawing the bow to shoot is part of the attack and attacking with a bow wielded with two hands is no different than attacking with a melee weapon wielded with two hands. It's a no-go; you'll just have to take your Crane Wing AoO with an unarmed strike like everyone else.
Chris Kenney wrote: A bow is a two-handed weapon. You can switch from wielding a bow to carrying it in one hand as a free action on your turn. This means that, at the end of your actions, you have to declare whether you are wielding the bow or not.
You cannot do this when it is not your turn. Therefore, since Crane Riposte requires you to have a hand free and Reflexive Shot requires that you be wielding a bow, you cannot use them simultaneously unless you can somehow come up with three or more hands.
If this were true then an archer couldn't make attacks with a spiked gauntlet during his enemy's turn without declaring that he is no longer wielding his bow at the end of every turn - I don't think there is anything to say this is the case?
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Durinor, I agree
I think the problem is that everyone is comparing a bow to a two-handed weapon. However, that is a bad comparison for two important reasons.
Number 1: If a person were trying to use Crane Wing with a greatsword, the person would have to declare at the end of his attacks that he is regripping. This would be a free action. He would then have a hand free for Crane Wing.
However, with a bow, you do not have to re-grip anything. You are always holding the bow with just one hand. It is not a two-handed weapon like a greatsword. Its is a weapon that requires one hand to hold and two-hands to fire. Once you stop firing, your hand is free.
Number 2: The guy with the greatsword could not block with Crane Wing and then get an attack of opportunity with Crane Riposte because after he blocks with Crane Wing it would take a free action to re-grip and then take the attack of opportunity - and you can't take a free action when it is not your turn.
However, the guy with the bow who blocks with Crane Wing could then take an attack of opportunity (assuming he had Snap Shot or Reflexive Shot) because it does not take a free action to go from having a hand free with the bow to then go to firing the bow with two hands. Heck, it does not even take an immediate action. It instead takes no action at all.
So I already know that mechanically Crane Riposte works with a bow RAW. The reason why I posted the question was because I know that RAW sometimes gets overturned and I just assumed that this question had been asked and answered. However, I take it that is has not.
I also have no angle to understand the RAI because there is nothing out there that I know of that suggests that the writers are opposed to an archer using Crane Wing without having to give up his AoO for the next round.
Further, I didn't know if the writers felt the combo would be unbalanced (it does require 4 to 6 feats to occasionally get one attack of opportunity).
Finally, I wanted to put the final build on my website without there being a retroactive ruling to destroy the build.
RAW you can’t use a bow with Crane Riposte because of the fact it is a two handed weapon. Although you can carry a bow in one hand it is not being wielded at that point. An attack of opportunity interrupts the normal combat long enough for you to make the attack, nowhere does it say you can take other actions including free actions. Drawing an arrow is a free action not an immediate action so can only be performed on your turn.
For that reason I would rule that in order to for a Zen Archer to use Reflex Shot they have to have an arrow already loaded in the bow. This would prevent the use of Crane Wing to deflect the blow, thereby making it impossible to use Crane Riposte.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Mysterious Stranger wrote: RAW you can’t use a bow with Crane Riposte because of the fact it is a two handed weapon. Although you can carry a bow in one hand it is not being wielded at that point. An attack of opportunity interrupts the normal combat long enough for you to make the attack, nowhere does it say you can take other actions including free actions. Drawing an arrow is a free action not an immediate action so can only be performed on your turn.
For that reason I would rule that in order to for a Zen Archer to use Reflex Shot they have to have an arrow already loaded in the bow. This would prevent the use of Crane Wing to deflect the blow, thereby making it impossible to use Crane Riposte.
See my post above. I looks like we posted simultaneously. I believe I addressed your concern. By the way, drawing an arrow is no action, not a free action.
Durinor wrote:
If this were true then an archer couldn't make attacks with a spiked gauntlet during his enemy's turn without declaring that he is no longer wielding his bow at the end of every turn - I don't think there is anything to say this is the case?
@Durinor; there is this FAQ.
Paizo FAQ wrote: Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
A bow is designated as a two handed weapon, so the above FAQ would apply. Now, if this were my game I'd allow it. Bt if I were building this character for PFS I would proceed cautiously and expect table variation.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Krodjin wrote: Durinor wrote:
If this were true then an archer couldn't make attacks with a spiked gauntlet during his enemy's turn without declaring that he is no longer wielding his bow at the end of every turn - I don't think there is anything to say this is the case?
@Durinor; there is this FAQ.
Paizo FAQ wrote: Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
A bow is designated as a two handed weapon, so the above FAQ would apply. Now, if this were my game I'd allow it. Bt if I were building this character for PFS I would proceed cautiously and expect table variation.
It is entirely possible that I am missing something. However, range weapons (at least from what I have seen) are not designated as two-handed weapons. They are just designated as range weapons.
Accordingly, I am hoping that moving forward in this discussion everyone notes the following four points:
1) Range Weapons are not designated as two-handed weapons;
2) Bows do not require re-gripping;
3) Bows are weapons that are held in one hand and that only require two hands at the moment you fire; and
4) It does not take a free action to go from holding the bow with one hand to firing the bow with two hands - it's a non-action.
All of the above are the basic foundation to having a discussion about Crane Riposte and Reflexive Shot.
And I am sorry for the bolding, but I and others have stated these points already and yet people continue to make statements to support their arguments against using Crane Riposte and Reflexive Shot that are clearly the opposite of rule.
Here is what I believe most people are referring to when they refer to bows as two-handed weapons(emphasis mine)
PRD wrote: Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, crossbows, shortbows, slings, longbows, and halfling sling staves are examples of projectile weapons—weapons that launch ammunition at a target. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character cannot apply his Strength modifier on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a sling or a specially built composite shortbow or composite longbow. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when she uses a bow or a sling. PRD wrote: Longbow
Price 75 gp
Type martial
At almost 5 feet in height, a longbow is made up of one solid piece of carefully curved wood. You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow can't be used while mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow. You can apply your Strength modifier to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow, but not a regular longbow. A longbow fires arrows.
Driver 325 yards wrote: Crane Riposte (Combat)
Quote: Benefit: You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. Whenever you use Crane Wing to deflect an opponent’s attack, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent after the attack is deflected. Zen Archer's Reflexive Shot
Quote: At 9th level, a zen archer can make attacks of opportunity with arrows from his bow. The monk still threatens squares he could reach with unarmed strikes, and can still only make one attack of opportunity per round (unless he has Combat Reflexes). So it seems like per RAW these two abilities/feats would work together allowing a zen archer to deflect an attack and the make an attack of opportunity with his bow.
I guess I want to know if there is a FAQ ruling that has found that the attack of opportunity used for Crane Riposte has to be a melee attack or even worse (unarmed attack).
I am making a build and I want to be overly cautious to avoid any rule problems.
The only issue I see is that you must have a free hand. You don't have a free hand while firing your bow.
Other than that I'd say these are fine. Argue with your GM about the free hand thing and try to persuade him.
You can take your hand off of your Bow as a free action, like a staff or some other 2h item of the like. However, you have to have a free hand to actually perform the counterattack.
(Edited for Confusion in wording)Again, RAW says No to the combination you are asking about due to the Free Hand issue. Your GM is your only hope.
That is correct. It requires two hands to use a bow. However, it is not a two-handed weapon and is not designated as such.
Accordingly, if one of your hands are bound, broken, etc... you can not use a Longbow. However, it is not a two-handed weapon like a greatsword is designated as, because you don't have to have two hands to hold it and don't have to have two hands on it at all times.
So, greatsword and longbow are not the same thing. By the way, even without the description that you have pointed out, noone would ever contend that you do not need two hands to fire a bow. The is not being debated.
Kazumetsa wrote:
Quote:
The only issue I see is that you must have a free hand. You don't have a free hand while firing your bow.
Other than that I'd say these are fine. Argue with your GM about the free hand thing and try to persuade him.
You can take your hand off of your Bow as a free action, like a staff or some other 2h item of the like. However, you have to have a free hand to actually perform the counterattack. RAW says No to this, but I'm sure you can convince your GM to allow it. In all due respect Kazumetsa, it is not a free action to take you hand off of a bow - it is a non-action. There is a difference and the difference is significant.
Please refer back to the greatsword comparison I wrote above as to why with a bow you have a free hand the moment that you are not firing. It is not like a greatsword where you keep two hands on it at all times. It is not designated as a two-handed weapon. You don't have to re-grip. You don't need a free action to put your hand on it to fire.
What I am arguing is RAW. You guys are just making statements that are not supported anywhere.
Quote:
Two-Handed Weapons: What kind of action is it to remove your hand from a two-handed weapon or re-grab it with both hands?
Both are free actions. For example, a wizard wielding a quarterstaff can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, cast a spell as a standard action, and grasp the weapon again with that hand as a free action; this means the wizard is still able to make attacks of opportunity with the weapon (which requires using two hands).
As with any free action, the GM may decide a reasonable limit to how many times per round you can release and re-grasp the weapon (one release and re-grasp per round is fair).
—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/01/13
Removing and replacing your hand is a free action. Free actions can only be done on your turn, aside from speaking.
You think you are arguing RAW, but bows are two handed weapons. Despite how you don't want to admit it. They are treated as two-handed weapons.
Otherwise, you could Two Weapon Fight with a bow and a gauntlet. But we know, that TWF exclusively forbids the use of any two handed weapons and another weapons. So I would extend this logic to say that you do not have a free hand when wielding a bow. It is occupied for game purposes, even if its is not always occupied in real life. Don't argue from real life experiences, they have very little to do with this game.
Driver 325 yards wrote: Kazumetsa wrote:
Quote:
The only issue I see is that you must have a free hand. You don't have a free hand while firing your bow.
Other than that I'd say these are fine. Argue with your GM about the free hand thing and try to persuade him.
You can take your hand off of your Bow as a free action, like a staff or some other 2h item of the like. However, you have to have a free hand to actually perform the counterattack. RAW says No to this, but I'm sure you can convince your GM to allow it. In all due respect Kazumetsa, it is not a free action to take you hand off of a bow - it is a non-action. There is a difference and the difference is significant.
Please refer back to the greatsword comparison I wrote above as to why with a bow you have a free hand the moment that you are not firing. It is not like a greatsword where you keep two hands on it at all times. It is not designated as a two-handed weapon. You don't have to re-grip. You don't need a free action to put your hand on it to fire.
What I am arguing is RAW. You guys are just making statements that are not supported anywhere.
With all due respect, your statement is incorrect. :T
Driver 325 yards wrote: That is correct. It requires two hands to use a bow. However, it is not a two-handed weapon and is not designated as such.
Accordingly, if one of your hands are bound, broken, etc... you can not use a Longbow. However, it is not a two-handed weapon like a greatsword is designated as, because you don't have to have two hands to hold it and don't have to have two hands on it at all times.
So, greatsword and longbow are not the same thing. By the way, even without the description that you have pointed out, noone would ever contend that you do not need two hands to fire a bow. The is not being debated.
Right here is where there is an impasse, and I doubt you'll get past it. In my mind It requires two hands so it follows the 2-handed rules for weapons. It doesn't specifically say it is a 2-handed weapon. So you either agree with me or you don't. No amount of arguing is really going to "prove" anything unless someone has something specific that isn't shown.
Personally I think you're grasping at staws to get the answer you want. "It requires two handes" seems pretty definitive to me.
Edit: Ninjaed, but I'll leave this so the poster who prompted this can read the walls of text of rules.
As Rogue Eidolon and I stated earlier, there is no RAW conflict here, its 100% clear how this works. The PRD has been quoted saying bows are a two handed weapon, and nocking an arrow is a non-action. It has been stated in FAQs that you can let go of a weapon, or change weapon hands, as a free action (for people wanting to take natural attacks with both claw while holding something). Stop trying to make up rules and claim that those quoting them are wrong. For clarity
PRD wrote: Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). PRD wrote: Longbow: At almost 5 feet in height, a longbow is made up of one solid piece of carefully curved wood. You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. I'll give you that the not an action versus free action is somewhat ambiguous, as the PRD contradicts itself
PRD wrote: Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow. PRD wrote: Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; Fortunately, they have a FAQ addressing this
Ultimate Combat FAQ wrote:
Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?
Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.
You can choose to not WIELD your bow, as a free action after your attacks, in which case you have a free hand, its exactly like holding a great sword in one hand, if you are no longer able to use said weapon, and you can't use it to take AoOs.
See earlier quote about projectile weapons usually requiring two hands.
and finally
CRB FAQ wrote:
Two-Handed Weapons: What kind of action is it to remove your hand from a two-handed weapon or re-grab it with both hands?
Both are free actions. For example, a wizard wielding a quarterstaff can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, cast a spell as a standard action, and grasp the weapon again with that hand as a free action; this means the wizard is still able to make attacks of opportunity with the weapon (which requires using two hands).
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Jodokai wrote: Driver 325 yards wrote: That is correct. It requires two hands to use a bow. However, it is not a two-handed weapon and is not designated as such.
Accordingly, if one of your hands are bound, broken, etc... you can not use a Longbow. However, it is not a two-handed weapon like a greatsword is designated as, because you don't have to have two hands to hold it and don't have to have two hands on it at all times.
So, greatsword and longbow are not the same thing. By the way, even without the description that you have pointed out, noone would ever contend that you do not need two hands to fire a bow. The is not being debated.
Right here is where there is an impasse, and I doubt you'll get past it. In my mind It requires two hands so it follows the 2-handed rules for weapons. It doesn't specifically say it is a 2-handed weapon. So you either agree with me or you don't. No amount of arguing is really going to "prove" anything unless someone has something specific that isn't shown.
Personally I think you're grasping at staws to get the answer you want. "It requires two handes" seems pretty definitive to me. I am not grasping at straws. I am pointing out an important distinction between two-handed melee weapons like Greatswords and range weapon that are not designated as two-handed weapons, but, nontheless, require two hands to fire.
Why do you think the writer's made a distinction between designated certain melee weapons as two-handed weapons and not doing so for range weapons like Longbows? Do you think it was a oversight or done for a significant reason. I think the latter and that is not grasping at straws, that is stating what is in plain sight.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
David_Bross wrote:
PRD wrote: Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). PRD wrote: Longbow: At almost 5 feet in height, a longbow is made up of one solid piece of carefully curved wood. You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. Driver325yards Reply: Noone is arguing that you don't need two hands to fire a Longbow. Did you even need to provide a quote for this? We know you need to hands to fire a Longbow. That is common sense. It is also common sense that after each time you fire the bow, your hand is free. You don't have to designated you hand as free. It is naturally free. Why in the world do you not see this. Have you every fired a bow. Even if you have not, what I am proposing is not hard to visulaize. Your hand is free.
Quote: I'll give you that the not an action versus free action is somewhat ambiguous, as the PRD contradicts itself
PRD wrote: Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow. PRD wrote: Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; Fortunately, they have a FAQ addressing this
Ultimate Combat FAQ wrote:
Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?
Yes. As long as
...
Driver325yards Reply:There was nothing contradictory. What FAQ told you is what should have been obvious. The non-action that it takes to fire a bow is unlike the typical free action because it is a free action you can take even when it is not your turn. This is different than the free action it takes to re-grip a greatsword because you could not do that unless it was your turn. Actually, thanks. You have made my point.
Driver 325 yards wrote: I am not grasping at straws. I am pointing out an important distinction between two-handed melee weapons like Greatswords and range weapon that are not designated as two-handed weapons, but, nontheless, require two hands to fire.
Why do you think the writer's made a distinction between designated certain melee weapons as two-handed weapons and not doing so for range weapons like Longbows? Do you think it was a oversight or done for a significant reason. I think the latter and that is not grasping at straws, that is stating what is in plain sight.
Look at the class of weapons:
Light
1-Handed
2-Handed
Ranged
That's it. Why do you think the writers went out of their way to say that a bow requires two hands?
Jodokai wrote: Driver 325 yards wrote: I am not grasping at straws. I am pointing out an important distinction between two-handed melee weapons like Greatswords and range weapon that are not designated as two-handed weapons, but, nontheless, require two hands to fire.
Why do you think the writer's made a distinction between designated certain melee weapons as two-handed weapons and not doing so for range weapons like Longbows? Do you think it was a oversight or done for a significant reason. I think the latter and that is not grasping at straws, that is stating what is in plain sight.
Look at the class of weapons:
Light
1-Handed
2-Handed
Ranged
That's it. Why do you think the writers went out of their way to say that a bow requires two hands? First, they did not go out of there way. They just stated the obvious, bows take two hands to fire. They don't take two hands to hold, however. They don't require you to re-grip like a greatsword. They don't require you to designate a hand as free because it would be naturally free after firing.
So the Greatsword/Longbow comparison is not a good analogy by RAW or common sense.
Really, you guys can't imagine a guy blocking a punch and then grabbing an arrow and firing. Really.
By the way, if imagination is the problem, there is already precedent for an Elf stabbing you with an arrow and then shooting his bow (stabbing shot).
Is it that great a leap in imagination to envision a person blocking a punch and then shooting a bow.
The Crane Style feat requires you to fight defensively with one hand free to even benefit from the Crane Wing feat when it is not your turn. So, during your turn you are either firing a bow (two-handed) or fighting defensively with one hand free (not firing a bow) in order to qualify to use crane wing against incoming attacks.
Driver 325 yards wrote: First, they did not go out of there way. They just stated the obvious, bows take two hands to fire. They don't take two hands to hold, however. They don't require you to re-grip like a greatsword. They don't require you to designate a hand as free because it would be naturally free after firing.
So the Greatsword/Longbow comparison is not a good analogy by RAW or common sense.
Really, you guys can't imagine a guy blocking a punch and then grabbing an arrow and firing. Really.
Do you really think, using common sense, that you can knock an arrow before I can put a second hand on a sword I'm already holding? I'll race ya. Out of ten times you'll probably win exactly zero times. So let's leave out what may or may not be common sense.
But to answer your question, yes I can absoluetly imagine it, but since we are playing a game, we have to worry about what's fair and balanced. Is it fair to let a bow user do it, when other weapons that require two hands can't? I don't think so, and I'd say the rules agree.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
A bow requires two hands to wield (quoted by many others) and you do not have a hand free while using a weapon which requires two hands to wield (such as a greatsword, or any other weapon in the "two-handed weapons" category).
As I see it, your options are:
1) Attack with bow during your round. At the end of the round, take your hand off the bow (envision that instead of notching a another arrow and drawing the bowstring back) and choose to be defensive with that hand. This allows you to use crane wing and crane riposte, but since you cannot take free actions off your initiative (with the exception of drawing arrows and speaking a few lines), you cannot also choose to take an attack of opportunity with the bow, since you weren't wielding it, and still aren't. (This is very much similar to the fact that you cannot use quickdraw to draw a weapon as a free action and make an attack of opportunity with it.)
2) Attack with the bow during your round and leave your hand on the bow at the end of the round. (Envision yourself pulling back the arrow and getting ready to pluck one at the first enemy who leaves an opening.) Now you get your AoO with the bow, but since your hand wasn't free (again, you can't take free actions other than drawing an arrow, which while it sounds similar to changing your hand hold when dealing with a bow, it is not the same thing) you cannot use crane wing and crane riposte.
Personally, this aligns perfectly with SKRs comments that things are intended to be about choices. You can choose to do X (use one hand to deflect an attack and retaliate with an unarmed strike), or you can choose to do Y (use both hands to make an AoO with the bow), but in this case, I think the RAW pretty clearly supports that you cannot choose to do both X and Y on the same round off your initiative count.
Just my 2 cp.
The above poster is 100% correct.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Driver 325 yards wrote: By the way, if imagination is the problem, there is already precedent for an Elf stabbing you with an arrow and then shooting his bow (stabbing shot).
Is it that great a leap in imagination to envision a person blocking a punch and then shooting a bow.
Yes, it is, because the Elf in question stabbed with the arrow, then fired that same arrow so the hand in question isn't being used for two disparate purposes. Moreover, imagination isn't the only problem here as there are clear mechanical precedents to deal with even if you've tackled the problem of imagining how it can be done. Even if you can't imagine it, being allowed or not allowed is not based on something that was done in a movie.
Crane Wing requires you to have a free hand> Crane Wing leads to an AoO when you deflect> You choose a weapon that requires two hands to operate; you now no longer qualify for Crane Wing since you don't have both hands free. Illegal Maneuver.
For the record:
A two-hand weapon to me is as follows:
1) A weapon that is designated as a two-handed weapon
2) A weapon that has to be re-gripped to hold it in one hand
3) A weapon that require yet another free action regrip to go from holding it in one hand to holding it in two hands
A range weapon that requires two hands to "use" is as follows:
1) It is not designated as a two-handed weapons
2) It does not take two hands to hold, it only takes two hands to use/fire.
3) It does not have to be re-gripped when you go from firing with two hands to holding in one hand.
4) It does not take the typical free action (which can only be performed on your turn) to place your second hand on it to go from one handing it to two-handing it. It takes a non-action (free action that can be performed on any turn).
Look, I get that some of you are just going to call it a two-handed weapon because it takes two hands to fire. We are at an impasse. I will not make the leap. I believe the two-handed weapon designation means more that "it takes two hands to use/fire." Obviously others don't.
So maybe this should be FAQ'd. At this point, both sides of the argument are laid out. I don't think anything new is being added at this point. The answer can only come from the writers telling us the RAI. I had hoped this was already addressed. However, it is not, so what is the proper procedure for getting a FAQ? Should it be moved to the Rule section?
Driver 325 yards wrote: So maybe this should be FAQ'd. At this point, both sides of the argument are laid out. I don't think anything new is being added at this point. The answer can only come from the writers telling us the RAI. I had hoped this was already addressed. However, it is not, so what is the proper procedure for getting a FAQ? Should it be moved to the Rule section? In order to get this FAQ'd, a new post should be written in the rules forum, with a very pointed and unbiased question.
For example: "Can Crane Wing be utilized to deflect a melee attack and then can the subsequent attack of opportunity granted by Crane Riposte be taken with a Longbow or other ranged weapon which requires two hands to use if the character possesses the Snap Shot feat?" (I'd also recommend placing this question at the very beginning of the post, in bold, with the largest size font possible.)
You should then lay out in as clearly a manner as possible (and as unbiased a manner as possible) the two alternate view points and their supporting points, with revalavent rules quotes where needed.
Also, linking to this thread is a good idea so people can catch up on the discussion, or post their thoughts here as well.
Edit: Also, post a link in this thread when you make the FAQ thread so that people who stumble upon this thread can go there to hit FAQ. (Again, this post should be in the largest possible font and in bold to attract attention - not because you're shouting, but because you want all FAQ attempts directed to the same point.)
It is not a bad idea, I would hit the FAQ button in that post.
MechE_ wrote: A bow requires two hands to wield (quoted by many others) and you do not have a hand free while using a weapon which requires two hands to wield (such as a greatsword, or any other weapon in the "two-handed weapons" category).
As I see it, your options are:
... At the end of the round, take your hand off the bow... (envision that instead of notching a another arrow and drawing the bowstring back) and choose to be defensive with that hand...
What makes you think that at the end of a turn a person using a bow is notching another arrow? Doesn't he make that choose at the beginning of his next turn when he decides if he is going to attack again or not? If so, then naturally at the end of his full attack he is not notching another arrow. By default, he has his hand free. Or can you point me in the rules where it says that at the end of a typical round an archer is nothcing an arrow for the next round.
Quote: 2) Attack with the bow during your round and leave your hand on the bow at the end of the round... Once again, I think you accurately reflect what you and others are imagining in your head, but where in the rules does it say that you have to leave your hand on the bow at the end of your turn. An archer is naturally taking his hand on and off of the bow during his turn. Why in the world at the end of his turn could his hand not be off the bow and then placed back on the bow as a non-action for the attack of opportunity? He does it all the time. It is a natural part of using a bow.
Pick your nose, grab an arrow and shot
Block a punch, grab an arrow and shot
It's a non-action.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I deleted a post I wrote earlier, but its mechanically quite simple, and you're willfully ignoring the rules and FAQs posted.
At the end of your turn you are using 2 hands to wield (use) the bow and can use said bow, or you are holding a bow in one hand and not able to do so. Find ONE place that supports changing hands being not an action, because I've already posted a FAQ stating it is a free action.
David_Bross wrote: Find ONE place that supports changing hands being not an action, because I've already posted a FAQ stating it is a free action. That is just the point David, taking your shooting hand off of a bow is not changing hands. It is not like a greatsword. When you go for two-handing a greatsword to holding it in one hand you are re-gripping.
When you go from firing with two-hands with a longbow to taking your shooting hand off of the bow, you are not re-gripping. Your supporting hand remains on the bow always in the same position.
So, I can't point you to a FAQ because with bows there is no "changing hands"
Look at this fast archery video You can see that her support of the bow in the off hand never changes. However, the shooting hand is only needed to fire and grabbed the arrow. There is no re-gripping or changing of grips
Driver 325 yards wrote: MechE_ wrote: A bow requires two hands to wield (quoted by many others) and you do not have a hand free while using a weapon which requires two hands to wield (such as a greatsword, or any other weapon in the "two-handed weapons" category).
As I see it, your options are:
... At the end of the round, take your hand off the bow... (envision that instead of notching a another arrow and drawing the bowstring back) and choose to be defensive with that hand...
What makes you think that at the end of a turn a person using a bow is notching another arrow? Doesn't he make that choose at the beginning of his next turn when he decides if he is going to attack again or not? If so, then naturally at the end of his full attack he is not notching another arrow. By default, he has his hand free. Or can you point me in the rules where it says that at the end of a typical round an archer is nothcing an arrow for the next round. The whole notching an arrow thing is just what I'm asking people to envision, and I understand that others (including you) envision it differently.
To me, the big problem in all of this is that changing grips on a weapon (wielding a great sword vs holding it in one hand while you cast a spell) is a free action, but must be taken on your turn, which means you cannot do what you're trying to do while wielding a great sword. While a bow does not TECHNICALLY fall into the "two handed weapon category", it explicitly states that it requires two hands to use, so why is it different from a melee weapon which requires two hands to use?
If you want to get into an RAI discussion, then I believe that drawing an arrow as a free action that can be taken off your turn was a clarification made to allow the Snap Shot feat to work as intended, not something that was intended to allow ranged weapon users to utilize crane wing for no cost. The fact that melee weapons don't work this way should pretty much end the RAI argument - Why would it be allowed for one, but not the other? Also, I think you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that it's a good idea with regards to game balance since bows are already among the strongest weapon choices in the game, if not the strongest.
Again, my 2 cp. If you make the FAQ thread, I'll hit the FAQ for it, just to get an official clarification.
Driver 325 yards wrote: Look at this fast archery video You can see that her support of the bow in the off hand never changes. However, the shooting hand is only needed to fire and grabbed the arrow. There is no re-gripping or changing of grips Try looking at this video instead. Notice how he is actually capable of firing the number of arrows in 6 seconds that your character is able to fire and your "quick archer" isn't? If you want to bring verisimilitude into this argument then we should be basing it off of his archery style since that's the style that can actually match the speed of combat in Pathfinder. His hands are never free, they are full of arrows.
MechE wrote:
To me, the big problem in all of this is that changing grips on a weapon (wielding a great sword vs holding it in one hand while you cast a spell) is a free action, but must be taken on your turn, which means you cannot do what you're trying to do while wielding a great sword. While a bow does not TECHNICALLY fall into the "two handed weapon category", it explicitly states that it requires two hands to use, so is it different from a melee weapon which requires two hands to use?
If you want to get into an RAI discussion, then I believe that drawing an arrow as a free action that can be taken off your turn was a clarification made to allow the Snap Shot feat to work as intended, not something that was intended to allow ranged weapon users to utilize crane wing for no cost. The fact that melee weapons don't work this way should pretty much end the RAI...
You should know that Driver's opinions are pure FACT, RAI and RAW.....(sarcasm)
|
