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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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I have a little problem. My game master forbade me from picking up the Magus Archetype "Spell Dancer" because the character is not an elf, but a half elf.
Reading through regarding similar questions for both half-elves and half-orcs it seems to me that it is indeed permitted to do so based on "Elf Blood" - despite the formulation "Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race." it seems so that this also includes character option prerequisits (which are not effects).
Most similar questions on this board contain answers that the _type_ counts as prerequisit and not the concrete race.
The question is: Where can I find a credible, official ruling that clearly states this? Or am I wrong and it is indeed not permitted?
RAW, he's correct. Archetype prerequisites aren't effects. RAI is debatable, but debate doesn't seem likely to work.
You could try Racial Heritage, but your DM's likely to veto that due to the "Human" requirement.
Your best option, if the half-elf thing isn't central to your concept, is to be a human with Racial Heritage (elf) instead, as the FAQ specifically says it lets you take racial archetypes.
From the Racial Archetypes section in the PRD, I would think that some exceptions are allowed:
PRD wrote: Typically, only members of the section's race can take the listed archetype, bloodline, or order, though such options rarely interact with the racial traits or alternate racial traits of that race. An archetype usually features a thematic link to the race, granting it class features that complement the abilities and the background of the race. Because adventurers are often societal outliers, sometimes these archetypes feature a theme that is the exception to the norm for racial tendencies. Unfortunately not a hard 'n fast rule, but perhaps you could negotiate with him on this. Hope you get your spell dancer!
Elf blood uses the same language as racial heritage so they should both work. Both say you count as that race for any effects related to race. Racial heritage states an example but if the preceding sentence is the same I don't see why you would treat it any differently.
I've found the answer in previous posts on this message board. Unfortunately it was not the answer I wanted to hear. There is a reference to an FAQ.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qf9
So the answer is, that is indeed not permitted.
A thread where the same topic is discussed at length is here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9ph?Halfelves-halforcs-and-racial-archetypes# 1
Since I have unfortunately the habit of being honest about such things, I admitted to my game master that I found this ruling. Which does not improve my chances. But yes, it is essential to that character.
The character was a fighter/mage in AD&D 2nd, a wizard(transmutation) / fighter / eldritch knight in D&D 3.0, a wizard (transmutation) / fighter / spellsinger in D&D 3.5 ... when I noticed first the magus class and then the spell dancer archetype I couldn't believe my luck. Something that perfectly reflects the vision of a character I've had for like fifteen years (the character was originally created for Baldur's Gate). Unfortunately the rules say "no".
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Oh ffs, here we go again. I'll condense the drama of the issue for you.
First off, "effects" is a vague term which some people interpret to mean just things like spell effects or having resistance against Ghoul Paralysis (it doesn't work on "elves" which includes both H-Elves and Drow). Others include qualifying for feats and racial archetypes as "effects" due to a complete understanding of the term as well as the fact that Racial Heritage also uses the term "effects", but further clarifies through a non-exhaustive list of examples that qualifying for Feats is applicable as an "effect". The FAQ on Racial Heritage further clarifies that you can qualify for a racial archetype through the feat (meaning qualifying for these archetypes is also counted as an "effect").
But
Another FAQ states that Half-Orcs and Half-Elves do not qualify for racial archetypes because qualifying for archetypes is not an effect. Hence, we have a clear contradiction in rules clarification; one FAQ says that qualifying for racial archetypes is an "effect" while another FAQ says it isn't an "effect". It's impossible for it to work both ways; either one of those FAQs are incorrect, or one of the two qualities (half-breed on the one hand, the Racial Heritage feat on the other) is written incorrectly.
Then, we have the following line from the ARG:
ARG wrote: Humanoid (0 RP)
Humanoid races have few or no supernatural or spell-like abilities, but most can speak and have well-developed societies. Humanoids are usually Small or Medium, unless they have the giant subtype, in which case they are Large. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype to match its race, such as human, giant, goblinoid, reptilian, or tengu. If you are making a new humanoid race, you should either find an existing subtype to match or make a new one by using the name of the race as the subtype. If you are making a half-breed race, it should have the racial type of both parent races. For example, a half-elf has both the human and the elf subtypes. Subtypes are often important to qualify for other racial abilities and feats. If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites. A humanoid race has the following features.
Here, it doesn't use the vague term "effects" but rather the more concise term "prerequisites". Further up the block, it states that subtypes qualify you for racial abilities and feats so, right there, a half-breed such as Half-Elf satisfies prereqs for racial feats of both parent races. So, even if racial archetypes aren't an "effect", they could very well be a racial ability and being a member of the race can be counted as a "prerequisite" of taking said archetype. Moreover, being a Half-Elf puts you a lot closer to elven heritage than a Human with Racial Heritage (Elf) who may be 2 or more generations removed; but two or more generations qualifies the Human more for an Elven racial archetype than being a first generation decedent of an Elf? That's patently ridiculous. By that logic, a Human with RH(Orc) could walk into an Orc settlement and ask the dawgs to teach him as a Scarred Orc Witch Doctor cause his great grandpa on his mom's side was a brotha, but an actual Half-Orc raised in the tribe is prohibited from taking that archetype. Various people have been calling for greater clarity as to why these answers were given, but we haven't gotten a solid response as of yet.
Ah, yes, the Race Builder.
Much like the Custom Magic Item Guidelines they are.
So, misunderstood.
Custom Magic Item Guidelines are optional rules, but that doesn't mean that they can completely throw system parity out the window. Archetypes are also optional rules, just as alternate racial favored class bonuses, hero points, and any other optional, add-on, or expanded rules. But that doesn't mean they get to disregard parity and set up definite contradictions. There is a clear and explicit contradiction in the case of Half-Breeds vs Racial heritage. That's a true fact; there's no arguing it. From there, we have to reconcile the issue. Half-breed says that qualifying for a racial archetype isn't an "effect". If you're only going with a single definition of "effect", under which "being affected by a stimulus" would fall, that's true. A Half-Elf, for example, counts as an Elf when determining the "effect" of ghoul paralysis; half-elves, drow, and humans with racial heritage (elf), and any other Humanoid creatures with the elf subtype are just as immune to it as the core race of Elf is. But Racial Heritage clearly gives the example that qualifying for feats and traits are also covered as "effects". Well, clearly, "effects" isn't limited just to the "being affected by..." definition, but also covers the "to the effect of..." definition; a Human with Racial Heritage (Elf) counts as an Elf to the effect of satisfying Elf racial prerequisites. This stands on its own simply from a comparison of Racial Heritage to the Half-breed racial quality. It is further supported by the line from ARG stating that a particular subtype qualifies you to satisfy prerequisites. It's further corroboration to an argument that has already been made and, essentially, won, according to simple logic. The way it stands, logically speaking, given the premise that Racial Heritage is written correctly in that feats and traits (and, from the FAQ, qualifying for racially restricted archetypes) are covered under the feat, then by extension half-breed quality must function the same and "effects" means both "affected by..." as well as "to the effect of". Further further support comes from the principal of reducto ad absurdem in that, if we accept the state that Racial Heritage allows a character two or more generations removed from the selected race (ie. my grandfather was an orc) to qualify for racially restricted archetypes but half-breed quality doesn't, we have situations such as what I described of a Human several generations removed from orc heritage being able to take an orc-restricted racial archetype (spoofed as a white person with a distant black ancestor attempting to "mingle" in "da hood" as if he were closely integrated in the culture despite being drastically out of place) while a half-orc who may very well have been raised as part of the tribe is denied and, in fact, being required to take the racial heritage feat (and thus, gain less utility out of it since he already counts as Orc for magical and item effects) to qualify. Moreover, it means that racial archetype restricted to, say, Elves are restricted to the specific Core Race "Elf" and any other race that also has the Humanoid (Elf) type doesn't qualify any more than a race with Humanoid (Human, Elf), which, as far as fluff and crunch goes, is putting the cart before the horse. And, if that's the case, how does Racial Heritage qualify one for it?
Thus, we have several legs upon which the argument stands:
1) Qualifying for feats and traits is established as an "effect" in racial heritage and, further, qualifying for racial archetypes is also established as an "effect" by means of FAQ clarification, thus the reasoning that "effects" counts only for magical and item effects implied by the half-breed FAQ is fallacious.
2) Allowing a further removed descendant of a race to qualify for a racial archetype, but restricting a closer descendant is ridiculous and breaks verisimilitude.
3) ARG establishes that it's not just "effects" but "prerequisites" that having a particular subtype qualifies you for.
BBT, you always seem to pick out the third leg regarding the ARG, as if the rest of it is all supported on that one point and countering it with "it's an optional rule so it has no weight against the 'real' system" somehow makes the rest of the argument topple in its entirety. But it doesn't counter that "effect" seems to mean one thing in one part of the system and another thing in another part. It doesn't counter the fact that "effect" can, indeed, have more than simply the definition of "affected by a magic or item effect" but can also include the definition of "to the effect of qualifying for 'quality x'" It doesn't counter the fact that the situation as the FAQs stand now is patently ridiculous. It doesn't address any of that and, to my knowledge, neither you nor any others have come up with any credible refutation of the other points. And if those points are valid, they, in and of themselves, lend credence to the third point that "effects" can more broadly be taken to mean "prerequisites" rather than just "affected by X". So... do you have anything new to bring to the table? Anything pertinent? Anything besides taking wild, futile jabs at a solid logical argument and, knuckles bloodied impotently, standing upon a chair and proclaiming yourself champion at beating down the wall with your bare hands as the wall stands unfazed and unimpressed by your blustering? If not, then kindly sit down before you hurt yourself.
So, I say the Race Builder is misunderstood, and you create a wall of text to describe how terrible, and foolish I am?
Really?
I say the Holy water is bitter.
Your response is to declare me a heretic, and wanting to burn down the church, rape the Nuns, and sacrifice the Pastor's soul to Satan.
Feuerrabe wrote: I've found the answer in previous posts on this message board. Unfortunately it was not the answer I wanted to hear. There is a reference to an FAQ.
...
Since I have unfortunately the habit of being honest about such things, I admitted to my game master that I found this ruling. Which does not improve my chances.
...
I, for one, applaud you for not only finding the answer to your own question for the GM, but also in admitting the answer wasn't the one you wanted.
Personally, I would allow it at my table, due to my opinion that archetypes can be cultural instead of simply genetic/racial. And its hardly unbalancing, as far as I know. If convincing the GM that archetypes could be culture based, perhaps you can say your character was raised by elves, so he can qualify? Or perhaps is better that your half-elf has just a shred of human blood, and is treat, statistically, as an elf (such as great, great, great Grandma Ethel was a human, and that screwed up the bloodline for four generations, but now the blood is pure enough that you are treated as an elf).
Feuerrabe wrote: But yes, it is essential to that character. This should be reason enough for your GM to okay it. What is ruined in his fun at mastering the game if your half-elf character gets this archetype ?
Quote: The character was a fighter/mage in AD&D 2nd, a wizard(transmutation) / fighter / eldritch knight in D&D 3.0, a wizard (transmutation) / fighter / spellsinger in D&D 3.5 ... when I noticed first the magus class and then the spell dancer archetype I couldn't believe my luck. Something that perfectly reflects the vision of a character I've had for like fifteen years (the character was originally created for Baldur's Gate). Unfortunately the rules say "no". No. YOUR GM says "no".
Explain to your GM how perfect this combination is for your beloved character. If he is adamant in refusing you this, maybe change the GM.
Because even if you change your character, you will still be playing with the same GM who would put the RAW above his players' fun.
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Quote: If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites. This is more than enough for me to allow archetype, your GM may have different opinion tho.
And this is why I hate race restricted class anything. Paizo REALLY took a step backwards with that design decision in the ARG, IMO. If a class fits your concept, you should be able to use it, period.
At least we're no longer in the days where one can't build that cool halfling paladin idea.
If the GM does not accept your taking a feat to work it out, I would suggest simply making do with another archetype.
Alternately, if it is the "dance-magic" theme that is important to you, another thing to consider might be making the character a bard with the dervish dancer archetype from Ultimate Combat, which is not race restricted. You could also add dance-style masterpieces from Ultimate Magic. Your BAB, hit dice, and spell progression would be the same (if you've been playing since AD&D it may be hard to get rid of old perceptions of the bard, but the Pathfinder bard is much tougher and much more versatile). The big difference would be the spell list and some of the spell-weapon stuff -- but if you saw yourself using mostly buff spells and non-evocation spells it might work. If the spell list was non-negotiable then you'd be stuck with either convincing your GM to allow it or picking another version of the magus.
You may be able to meet the desired flavor, without this specific class, and this specific archetype.
One thing that many forget, is that a class name, is just that.
A name.
I suggest compiling your wants and needs, then heading over to the Advice Forum, to find help meeting your concept.
I still think it's funny that a full human with racial heritage can take elf goodies, but a half-elf isn't close enough to an elf to do so.
It all depends on the campaign. Maybe the GM wants his elves to be super protective of their secrets? If that were me, I would say the same thing. Especially in a home game, GMs can get very protective of the setting.
At least that is how I get. ;)
Personally, I say build the character how you intend. It's within the rules as written and the contradictory FAQs can't both be correct simultaneously without an errata to the RAW so that's, effectively, a non-issue. So your intended build is valid by RAW and, if your GM has a problem with it, it has to be a pre-established issue that pertains to the story and setting rather than an issue with the rules themselves because no such issue objectively exists and, at that point, the GM is just acting out of spite and not worth your time.
Removed some posts. Be civil thank you.
By RAW, it is not allowed. But as others have pointed out, RAW appears to contradict itself on the topic and the two quoted FAQs seem to be at odds.
I say 'appears to' and 'seems to be' because while it seems goofy that a human with 1% orc blood could take an orc archetype, but a half-orc cannot, there are other areas where 'fluff' and 'mechanics' don't line up. Even that doesn't make a ton of sense, since humans are already one of the most versatile races in the game.
Personal prediction is that we'll see this 'balanced' by an errata to Racial Heritage allowing it to be taken by half-elves and half-orcs.
Perhaps your DM will let you re-do as an elf if they will not let you qualify for the archetype as a half-elf.
Write it as: the human blood was so diluted, if it was there, as to be no more than a rumor. However, he believed it to exist.
Possibly the human parent was an eventual victim of reincarnate. Possibly it's all in his head.
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