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You're making a perfect case against yourself. Neither of those have anything resembling spell slots of 3e sorcerers. They are both closer to using a pool of energy a la 3.5 psionics.Actually, I'm not making any mechanical arguments at all. Only thematic/fluff arguments as to why psionics <> magic.
EDIT: In order to make mechanical arguments, I would have to actually have read the mechanics for 3.x Psionics, which I haven't. I can go into great detail about the mechanical details between Magic and Psionics in GURPS, though. :)
To simplify: Psionics is Mana Magic.
It's Magic... cast out of a pool of magical stamina rather than spell slots.
It still uses pre-packaged spells [and as such could be considered the next Step of freedom within Vancian Magic, going from Preparation to Spontaneous to Mana.]
Kyrt-Rider, that was an informative, concise, and illuminating reply - expressed in an uninflammatory manner.
I thereby shun you for having broken the most sacred and unspoken rules of internet forums !
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Somebody call for a non-Italian plumber to fix their intergalactic kitchen sink?
I have no idea what the f~%# Vancian means, and if anyone links to Wikipedia rather than explain it I will burn this thread to the ground:-D
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I have no idea what the f&*& Vancian means, and if anyone links to Wikipedia rather than explain it I will burn this thread to the ground:-D
Vancian magic is traditional D&D magic where you memorize spells and the act of casting them removes the spell from your mind.
It's based on the magic used in the stories of Jack Vance, though I'm blanking on story titles at the moment.
I have no idea what the f&*& Vancian means, and if anyone links to Wikipedia rather than explain it I will burn this thread to the ground:-DVancian magic is traditional D&D magic where you memorize spells and the act of casting them removes the spell from your mind.
It's based on the magic used in the stories of Jack Vance, though I'm blanking on story titles at the moment.
Vancian Magic is also used by:
Roger Zelazny, Sir Terry Pratchett, by one sort of magic user in Lawrence Watt-Evan's wonderful Ethshar series, Diane Duane, Patricia C. Wrede,The Obsidian Trilogy by Mercedes Lackey and James Mallory, and Glen Cook.It's likely the second most used magic in Fantasy Literature, after magic that actually drains you physically and/or makes you tired. "Spell points" or Mana where you have so many points a day and use them like a battery (but dont make you tired) is quite rare in Fantasy Literature.
I should shun the lot of you except Zhangar for not linking to Wikipedia, shame on you all:-D
I have no idea what the f&*& Vancian means, and if anyone links to Wikipedia rather than explain it I will burn this thread to the ground:-DVancian magic is traditional D&D magic where you memorize spells and the act of casting them removes the spell from your mind.
It's based on the magic used in the stories of Jack Vance, though I'm blanking on story titles at the moment.
Vancian Magic is also used by:
Roger Zelazny, Sir Terry Pratchett, by one sort of magic user in Lawrence Watt-Evan's wonderful Ethshar series, Diane Duane, Patricia C. Wrede,The Obsidian Trilogy by Mercedes Lackey and James Mallory, and Glen Cook.It's likely the second most used magic in Fantasy Literature, after magic that actually drains you physically and/or makes you tired. "Spell points" or Mana where you have so many points a day and use them like a battery (but dont make you tired) is quite rare in Fantasy Literature.
I believe Sword of Truth uses this sort of spell resource, where the use of the magic doesn't physically fatigue you but does burn up your reserves of magical strength.
That system uses a more freeform magic though, where the magic can be woven into just about anything. A few common webs are used frequently [Wizard's Fire, Lightning and Cutting Wind for example] but their described as being options people like rather than as a pre-packaged spell like D&D style Mana Casting and Psionics.
Sure, that's a good example, but like you said it's very freeform.
Still Spell points/Man just isnt used much in Fantasy Literature.
I have no idea what the f&*& Vancian means, and if anyone links to Wikipedia rather than explain it I will burn this thread to the ground:-DVancian magic is traditional D&D magic where you memorize spells and the act of casting them removes the spell from your mind.
It's based on the magic used in the stories of Jack Vance, though I'm blanking on story titles at the moment.
Vancian Magic is also used by:
Roger Zelazny, Sir Terry Pratchett, by one sort of magic user in Lawrence Watt-Evan's wonderful Ethshar series, Diane Duane, Patricia C. Wrede,The Obsidian Trilogy by Mercedes Lackey and James Mallory, and Glen Cook.It's likely the second most used magic in Fantasy Literature, after magic that actually drains you physically and/or makes you tired. "Spell points" or Mana where you have so many points a day and use them like a battery (but dont make you tired) is quite rare in Fantasy Literature.
im sorry but are you taking about Power points LOL
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I have a lot of confessions that would get me shunned, they'd probably also get this thread locked in record time if I know anything about the Paizo moderating staff. Hopefully this one is tame enough.
Trigger warnings: I think they're one of the dumbest things anyone has ever thought of. Anyone who complains about lack of trigger warnings or demands their use probably shouldn't be involved in discourse. They are second in childishness only to people who wish they could slap someone through the Internet.
Something else is that even when this type of 'magical stamina' is spent, it starts recovering immediately. A full night's rest is likely required to fully recover, but recovery is gradual, not the artificial 'Full Night's Rest to recover' that we get in D&D/Pathfinder.I have no idea what the f&*& Vancian means, and if anyone links to Wikipedia rather than explain it I will burn this thread to the ground:-DVancian magic is traditional D&D magic where you memorize spells and the act of casting them removes the spell from your mind.
It's based on the magic used in the stories of Jack Vance, though I'm blanking on story titles at the moment.
Vancian Magic is also used by:
Roger Zelazny, Sir Terry Pratchett, by one sort of magic user in Lawrence Watt-Evan's wonderful Ethshar series, Diane Duane, Patricia C. Wrede,The Obsidian Trilogy by Mercedes Lackey and James Mallory, and Glen Cook.It's likely the second most used magic in Fantasy Literature, after magic that actually drains you physically and/or makes you tired. "Spell points" or Mana where you have so many points a day and use them like a battery (but dont make you tired) is quite rare in Fantasy Literature.
I believe Sword of Truth uses this sort of spell resource, where the use of the magic doesn't physically fatigue you but does burn up your reserves of magical strength.
That system uses a more freeform magic though, where the magic can be woven into just about anything. A few common webs are used frequently [Wizard's Fire, Lightning and Cutting Wind for example] but their described as being options people like rather than as a pre-packaged spell like D&D style Mana Casting and Psionics.
Sure, that's a good example, but like you said it's very freeform.
Still Spell points/Man just isnt used much in Fantasy Literature.
Does psionics come with a method for possibly burning yourself out or dying from trying to overspend your power? Because it should.
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I kind of understand trigger warnings, considering the reactions I and my fellow soldiers have to certain stimuli. Sometimes it hilarious when an entire company drops to the ground when the cannon announces the flag detail, sometimes it's really traumatizing to find yourself in your protective mask because someone honked their car horn outside.
This bard inspires with speech, yelling to her companions to fill them with courage. "Do you want to live forever? Get a move on!"
The profile has links to all her posts if you're interested.
Also, I hate when people mix up spellings such as your/you're/yore.
To my understanding, true Vancian magic allows a wizard to cast the same prepared spell multiple times, but each time incurs a greater chance that the spell will break and be unusable till it gets prepared again.
This is of course slightly different from dnd prepared casting, which I hate with a passion.
I kind of understand trigger warnings, considering the reactions I and my fellow soldiers have to certain stimuli. Sometimes it hilarious when an entire company drops to the ground when the cannon announces the flag detail, sometimes it's really traumatizing to find yourself in your protective mask because someone honked their car horn outside.
Right, but this is an actual, diagnosable problem.
It's not the same thing as appropriating that diagnosable mental trauma for their petty "If I see the word 'kill' used in conversation I'm going to flip out because I was really traumatized by a horror movie yesterday. =(" made up problems.
I know, imagine a world without Ronnie James Dio, not a pretty place is it.
You could make a character based on this..
I know, imagine a world without Ronnie James Dio, not a pretty place is it.You could make a character based on this..
I've been working up a campaign arc based on several of the songs from the different bands Dio was in over his career (except for his very early rockabilly and doowop stuff).
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It doesnt have to be music. Henry the V's St Crispins day's speech is an example of Oratory.
...we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender!
Right, but this is an actual, diagnosable problem.And that makes it more important?
I would say so, yes. A real psychological issue that can have detrimental effects on someone's life is much more important than someone's hurt feelings.
C'mon you gotta include rock a Billy Ronnie, it's part of his fabric, like Punk rock Dwight Yoakum or folk jam Black Sabbath or heavy metal Eddie Vedder and Tom Morello together, the early failures help define their later success, or you know whatever :-)
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That system uses a more freeform magic though, where the magic can be woven into just about anything. A few common webs are used frequently [Wizard's Fire, Lightning and Cutting Wind for example] but their described as being options people like rather than as a pre-packaged spell like D&D style Mana Casting and Psionics.
At least in most fantasy literature I've read, this free-form magic is FAR more common than seeing the use of pre-packaged spells.
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Still Spell points/Man just isnt used much in Fantasy Literature.
If you're looking for specific references to the mechanical terminology, then no, it isn't. Neither are spell slots. The overwhelming majority of fantasy literature doesn't go anywhere near that in-depth about HOW magic works in the setting. If a mage can only cast a certain amount of magic per day before needing to refresh himself somehow, that could be likened to either Vancian spell slots OR spell points / mana.
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I kind of understand trigger warnings, considering the reactions I and my fellow soldiers have to certain stimuli. Sometimes it hilarious when an entire company drops to the ground when the cannon announces the flag detail, sometimes it's really traumatizing to find yourself in your protective mask because someone honked their car horn outside.Right, but this is an actual, diagnosable problem.
It's not the same thing as appropriating that diagnosable mental trauma for their petty "If I see the word 'kill' used in conversation I'm going to flip out because I was really traumatized by a horror movie yesterday. =(" made up problems.
Speaking as someone who lived on a base that got attacked by mortar at LEAST once per day for the entire 4.5 months that I was there, I can tell you that this is definitely an "ACTUAL" problem.
And PTSD is a bit more than "hurt feelings".
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RE: sorcerers vs psionic characters
I don't see the magic itself as being inherent to sorcerers (at least beyond their other bloodline powers)...I see the ability to CONTROL the external force of magic as being inherent to them. If the magic itself was internal to them, then they would not suffer from the effects of dead magic areas, or other similar limitations on the use of magic.
Then again, because of the differences in the "fluff" between psionics and magic, I prefer the "psionics are different" approach.
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I kind of understand trigger warnings, considering the reactions I and my fellow soldiers have to certain stimuli. Sometimes it hilarious when an entire company drops to the ground when the cannon announces the flag detail, sometimes it's really traumatizing to find yourself in your protective mask because someone honked their car horn outside.Right, but this is an actual, diagnosable problem.
It's not the same thing as appropriating that diagnosable mental trauma for their petty "If I see the word 'kill' used in conversation I'm going to flip out because I was really traumatized by a horror movie yesterday. =(" made up problems.
Speaking as someone who lived on a base that got attacked by mortar at LEAST once per day for the entire 4.5 months that I was there, I can tell you that this is definitely an "ACTUAL" problem.
And PTSD is a bit more than "hurt feelings".
I think you may have misread what I wrote.
I said PTSD is an actual diagnosable problem.
And that it should not be conflated with the rampant silliness that is "trigger warnings" like you see on Tumblr and the like. Where things like "Trigger Warning: This blog contains pictures of white people" is a valid warning.
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I said PTSD is an actual diagnosable problem.And that it should not be conflated with the rampant silliness that is "trigger warnings" like you see on Tumblr and the like. Where things like "Trigger Warning: This blog contains pictures of white people" is a valid warning.
As someone who occasionally needs trigger warnings for things that are actually triggering, I agree that the silly and ironic overuse of faux trigger warnings is annoying.
On the other hand, I really appreciate being warned about vile, hateful, and graphic content. On a bad day that stuff can shut me down for weeks.
RE: sorcerers vs psionic characters
I don't see the magic itself as being inherent to sorcerers (at least beyond their other bloodline powers)...I see the ability to CONTROL the external force of magic as being inherent to them. If the magic itself was internal to them, then they would not suffer from the effects of dead magic areas, or other similar limitations on the use of magic.
Then again, because of the differences in the "fluff" between psionics and magic, I prefer the "psionics are different" approach.
On the contrary, a jamming signal that inhibits a cell phone from making a call doesn't change the fact that the cell phone can produce a signal. Thus, finding anti-magic a problem doesn't imply anything about the source of magic.
I tend to think of wizards as being laptops that need a usb wifi modem attachment with special software, while sorcerers have a built in wifi modem with the software built in into the os. Both run on an internal battery. Clerics and oracles are like desktops plugged into a network with a wifi (thus the network admins control access to the wifi). Psionics are like cell phones, built in battery and specialized wifi modems.
I guess part of the problem is I have no f~@@ing clue what "trigger warnings" are.
I'm as in the dark as you.
RE: sorcerers vs psionic characters
I don't see the magic itself as being inherent to sorcerers (at least beyond their other bloodline powers)...I see the ability to CONTROL the external force of magic as being inherent to them. If the magic itself was internal to them, then they would not suffer from the effects of dead magic areas, or other similar limitations on the use of magic.
Then again, because of the differences in the "fluff" between psionics and magic, I prefer the "psionics are different" approach.
With the telepathic mutation they get massive headaches when in an antimagic field. It's severing their connection to every other mind in the area.
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I would say so, yes. A real psychological issue that can have detrimental effects on someone's life is much more important than someone's hurt feelings.I would like to know how you separate real psychological issues from fake ones.
All mine are fake :-)
I would say so, yes. A real psychological issue that can have detrimental effects on someone's life is much more important than someone's hurt feelings.I would like to know how you separate real psychological issues from fake ones.
With a Mind Sifter.
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PsionicsI would say so, yes. A real psychological issue that can have detrimental effects on someone's life is much more important than someone's hurt feelings.I would like to know how you separate real psychological issues from fake ones.
S+%! I was about to say "Magic"
It all comes full circle.
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I have no idea what the f+@* Vancian means, and if anyone links to Wikipedia rather than explain it I will burn this thread to the ground:-D
Refers to the works of Jack Vance, where magic worked similarly to how it does in D&D/Pathfinder. Except wizards tended to know VERY few spells. If you knew three spells, you were an archmage of unparalleled power.
As such, I suggest Pathfinder 2.0 truely make the it's spellcasters Vancian. They can begin at 1st level knowing one cantrip. At 5th level they can learn one 1st level spell. At 10th level, one 2nd level spell. At 15th level, one 3rd level spell. And at 20th level, those paragons of magical might can even learn to cast a single one of the highly vaunted 4th level spells!
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PsionicsI would say so, yes. A real psychological issue that can have detrimental effects on someone's life is much more important than someone's hurt feelings.I would like to know how you separate real psychological issues from fake ones.S!+# I was about to say "Magic"
It all comes full circle.
Since sifting through another person's mind is more of a psionic power, I suggest that magic doesn't get it until a few levels AFTER the psionic power is availible.
However, this is Pathfinder, so I fully expect any "psychic magic" spells that are worth casting will also be given a wizard/sorcerer (or possibly cleric) level...and it will more than likely be at least sequel to, if not less than, the "psychic magic" spell level.
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I have no idea what the f+@* Vancian means, and if anyone links to Wikipedia rather than explain it I will burn this thread to the ground:-DRefers to the works of Jack Vance, where magic worked similarly to how it does in D&D/Pathfinder. Except wizards tended to know VERY few spells. If you knew three spells, you were an archmage of unparalleled power.
As such, I suggest Pathfinder 2.0 truely make the it's spellcasters Vancian. They can begin at 1st level knowing one cantrip. At 5th level they can learn one 1st level spell. At 10th level, one 2nd level spell. At 15th level, one 3rd level spell. And at 20th level, those paragons of magical might can even learn to cast a single one of the highly vaunted 4th level spells!
I'd try it.
20 lvl is a demigod. 5 lvl the limit of normal people, so that would be a bit slow on the progression, besides, it doesn't really makes sense to me that a spell can be written down but yet no one knows more than a handful of spells? It is like saying guns exist but armies don't use them. Just not sensible. Of course, I admit to not having read any of Vance's stuff yet.