Do you often see barbarians with 6 Int and 9 Cha put 15 ranks into Diplomacy? I can't say I've ever seen someone dump their mental stats then load up their penalized skills to make up for it. But I'll admit I haven't played in every game everywhere.Well to me and my rl group when we read the Stat reference for when a player has a intelligence if 6-7 (dull-witted or slow, often misuses and mispronounced words)
And that's from the paizo core book so we used that as a reference point for how a character can sound / act with a stat that is low
Or when you have a intelligence of 18 your a genius
So that would be your default role play setting as you talk with out a skill roll. So if a player dose make a skill check and rolls high yes even with a low stat they sound/do what they say how that state it.
So even if you have a 18+stat and roll low you sound/act as the gm decided how badly you fail by. So with a natural 1 , even on a skill check of trying to be stealthy natural 1 you stomp around, or nat 1 on diplomacy you scream or burp into the npcs face lol
Shouldn't the skill (and maybe the final total?) matter more to this than the stat?
If I've got a 6 Cha, but 15 ranks in Diplomacy, am I always rude?
If I've got a 18+ Cha, but 15 ranks in Diplomacy, so even with a natural 1, I still get over 20 on the check, do I burp in the npcs face?I don't mind a little of this kind of thing, but it's got to be used carefully. Failures like that should be tied to how the player wants the bad stat/skill to be portrayed or you wind up with the GM determining parts of the characters personality.
My first (and so far only) Barbarian, Crokus (THE UNSTOPPABLE WARRIOR!) had an 8 Int but maxed Linguistics because I thought it'd be funny.
Came in more handy than I thought it would, and was quite amusing when the only two people who could talk to and understand some people were him (and his 5 Cha) and the Wizard (with his 7 Cha).
We did not do social encounters well. But it was fun.
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I once made a character for Fallout. She had a 1 Intelligence/Intellect/Whatever.
She approached a villager and talked to him:
"Hnnnnnghhhh... wheeeer caaaaaave....?"
The very reasonable response:
"Go away. You're too stupid to talk to."
So, I made a new character, one that did not have a miserable intelligence stat. And you know what? I had fun despite not having uber-godly fighting stats! Yes, really! It's true!
I once made a character for Fallout. She had a 1 Intelligence/Intellect/Whatever.
She approached a villager and talked to him:
"Hnnnnnghhhh... wheeeer caaaaaave....?"
The very reasonable response:
"Go away. You're too stupid to talk to."
So, I made a new character, one that did not have a miserable intelligence stat. And you know what? I had fun despite not having uber-godly fighting stats! Yes, really! It's true!
drunk golf clap
I once made a character for Fallout. She had a 1 Intelligence/Intellect/Whatever.
She approached a villager and talked to him:
"Hnnnnnghhhh... wheeeer caaaaaave....?"
The very reasonable response:
"Go away. You're too stupid to talk to."
So, I made a new character, one that did not have a miserable intelligence stat. And you know what? I had fun despite not having uber-godly fighting stats! Yes, really! It's true!
But in Fallout, Intelligence IS a fighting stat. One of the most important.
It determines how many skill points per level you get, which can directly increase your skill and damage with firearms and the like.
Cornnuts the Cha 14 barbarian and Silverlisp the Cha 6 Bard are both trying to get a date with the single barmaid... Since this involves improving her disposition toward them from indifferent to friendly it needs a Diplomacy check. Cornnuts the barbarian feels she should automatically swoon for him because of the fluff text on their respective charisma scores and has no ranks in diplomacy. Silverlisp on the other hand recognizes the real number that is needed here IS the diplomacy check result and since he pumped a bunch of his otherwise unspent points into diplomacy he has a +9 modifier even after the penalty. They both make checks against diplomacy after much arguing from Cornnuts and guess what assuming the target number they need is a 20, Cornnuts has a 15% chance of success while Silverlisp has a 50% chance to win her heart. Even if they both succeed Silverlisp has a much better chance of landing that date. The game mechanics CLEARLY show Silverlisp as being FAR MORE eloquent a speaker than Cornnuts. Clearly the 3.5e monster comparison chart is totally useless in comparing PCs.If indeed, Silverlisp gets a chance to sweet-talk her for a whole minute. Have you ever tried to chat up a pretty girl? If you're a drooling ugly dude, you wont get past "Hey babe....." ;-)
Whereas Cornnuts will get her initial attention, but may fail his attempt as he bungles his conversation.
I talk to girls all the time... but then I am one so most of my friends are also girls. It really isn't hard to get a minute of chat with nearly anyone outside of combat. But remember also she starts indifferent to both of them, Cornnuts can't change that without gaining a minute to use diplomacy. Cha fluff DOES NOT AFFECT NPCs reactions, you NEED a skill for that.
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Cha fluff DOES NOT AFFECT NPCs reactions, you NEED a skill for that.
So...if you use the relationship system in Ultimate Campaign (and who doesn't), your starting relationship value is equal to your CHA modifier. You then get to make periodic skill checks to adjust it.
It is not unreasonable to use a similar mechanic to determine starting attitude before skills are rolled.
This punishment from bad GMs who will force you to act like a mentally disabled person if you dare drop below a 10 in any mental stat... I can't think of any better word to describe it than wrong. Stop and realize that the ONLY game effect of a low stat is a -1 or -2 on checks. If a 10% worse chance on a d20 equals mentally disabled to you then wow.
Count this as one of the many reasons I don't play 3.x/PF anymore. 5e handles skills better.
Edit: also, I think the "it's only 10% worse" argument is dumb. Using that, a person with 20 Int is only 25% smarter than average.
Even a 7 could be fairly capable of relaying information. As has been stated, IQ follows the same standard bell curve as 3d6, and Forest Gump had a 65IQ, which puts him between 6 and 7.
I don't recall him being unable to articulate, or a drooling simpleton.
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Here's something to consider with the stat dumping.
For intelligence - I've been a teacher for 17 years. Seen a range of people from the super bright to those with severe learning difficulty.
All of them were perfectly capable of holding a conversation with you. The really bright kids tended to get and use complex humour, pick up concepts really easily and people paid attention to their ideas because they sounded intelligent.
The kids with learning difficulties used more crass humour, take forever to pick up the gist of a concept and generally give themselves away in something they say or do. People rarely sought their advice on things even when the person knew a bit about it. People did spend time trying to help them though (which annoys many learning difficulty students to no end.)
Classic example, I taught a student all through his high school years who had Foetal Alcohol Syndrome. He was charismatic because it seemed that the entire student body adored this guy. From the moment he sarted to speak you could tell that his learning had been affected by the syndrome. He had trouble modulating his volume, he took longer than usual to formulate responses and he had no idea of personal space for holding conversations. However, he was good natured and kind and spoke out for what he believed in. He was also an expert on trains. Loved them. For those of us who knew a bit about the topic, we could listen raptured by his knowledge. For those who didn't know much about it, they merely laughed him off and ignored any possible usefulness he might have provided on the topic.
So, I use those experiences as my benchmark for intelligence stats. You dump stats into the range of 7 or lower and I'll ask you to come up with some quirks of behaviour or speech that give away your lower intelligence. I also have many people respond to you like the kids in my example above. People don't hate you or shun you, but they won't take you seriously even on topics you're an expert on. The people who get to know you well though, they will actively seek your advice on the topics you learn about.
I do this for all the stats a group has. Extreme high or extreme low. We explain the general idea of what people get of the character by how they act in general, not the 2 minutes of game time rolling the dice. This sets my initial reactions and then we go from there.
Given this thread title, I'm sure many in the Paizo forums will shun me for it.
As has been stated, IQ follows the same standard bell curve as 3d6,
It may have been stated, but it's not in the rules. Actually, on a random encounter* you wont find a human with less than a 8 int in all of Golarion. You dont normally roll, the normal array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. It's true the 3d6 system sorta a little follows the human bell curve, but since they are both bell curves, nothing surprising there.
* certainly the DM can assign a Int of anything he chooses.
Don't get me wrong the DM should not tell a PC what he sez. But "Hey Bob, is that in character, you have a pretty low INT & CHA?" is a reasonable thing to ask.
But I think those numbers are guidelines for how you run your PC, not strict rules.
As has been stated, IQ follows the same standard bell curve as 3d6,It may have been stated, but it's not in the rules. Actually, on a random encounter* you wont find a human with less than a 8 int in all of Golarion. You dont normally roll, the normal array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. It's true the 3d6 system sorta a little follows the human bell curve, but since they are both bell curves, nothing surprising there.
That's just a standard IQ bell curve with the outliers eliminated beyond two standard deviations. 92.5% of a population falls in that range (if I remember my numbers right - been a while since I had to remember the exact percentages).
People forget that adventurers are the rarity and even a 14 without racial adjustment is pretty rare, and thus a statistical outlier.
I certainly wouldn't shun you for it Wrath... though I would only welcome it in a game wherein it was explicitly noted in advance that we were 'roleplaying the sheets.'
Otherwise? The stats are just numbers, they don't define my character, nor do they define the characters of my players when I GM. They're there for nothing more than the mechanical impacts they are explicitly stated to have in the rules. I tend to get far more diverse, distinct and interesting characters [as in fictional entities, rather than in terms of builds] in my campaigns that way.
Meh, I've got computer games I can play if I don't want to play my stats. I assign stats that I want to play to, same with alignment.
A computer game doesn't give you the freedom of interactivity with the world and freedom of expression of your character that Roleplaying does.
If I wanted to play my stats I would play a videogame. In a videogame your character can't do anything the system doesn't explicitly permit him, where in roleplaying you can do and be anything you can imagine, within the limitations of the game.
Regardless of the character sheet you setup following those limitations apparently.
So you guys are saying my earlier referenced Pierce Brosnan goblin is legit, then? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying when you say stats don't matter.
As has been stated, IQ follows the same standard bell curve as 3d6,It may have been stated, but it's not in the rules. Actually, on a random encounter* you wont find a human with less than a 8 int in all of Golarion. You dont normally roll, the normal array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. It's true the 3d6 system sorta a little follows the human bell curve, but since they are both bell curves, nothing surprising there.
* certainly the DM can assign a Int of anything he chooses.
There are at least two officially statted NPCs with less than 8 Int.
The "Village Idiot" generic NPC from the NPC Codex, and "Owlbear" Hartshorn from Skull and Shackles both have 4 Int.
EVEN THEY aren't as dumb as people are suggesting an 8 Int person should be, with Hartshorn described as being "a bit simple" and the main signs of his idiocy being that he talks louder than he should, and takes to clowning around and calling random phrases in order to make friends. He can certainly speak more eloquently than "RAAAWRGH", and all of this while also having a Wis of 6.
I gave more examples than species differentiation.
Where's the line? What you can do is defined by who you are, and who you are is defined by your character sheet. My acrobatics says 2, but I want my character to be able to backflip on command. Your int says 7 but you want to be able to solve complex formulas. Your charisma says 8 but you want to be the kind of guy everyone loves and looks up to. Nope. That's not who you are, and like real life, tough $#!+, deal with it, or unlike real life, actually make your character reflect your concept instead of only where it's convenient.
As has been stated, IQ follows the same standard bell curve as 3d6,It may have been stated, but it's not in the rules. Actually, on a random encounter* you wont find a human with less than a 8 int in all of Golarion. You dont normally roll, the normal array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. It's true the 3d6 system sorta a little follows the human bell curve, but since they are both bell curves, nothing surprising there.
* certainly the DM can assign a Int of anything he chooses.
There are at least two officially statted NPCs with less than 8 Int.
The "Village Idiot" generic NPC from the NPC Codex, and "Owlbear" Hartshorn from Skull and Shackles both have 4 Int.
EVEN THEY aren't as dumb as people are suggesting an 8 Int person should be, with Hartshorn described as being "a bit simple" and the main signs of his idiocy being that he talks louder than he should, and takes to clowning around and calling random phrases in order to make friends. He can certainly speak more eloquently than "RAAAWRGH", and all of this while also having a Wis of 6.
Auchs in Kingmaker is a 3 IIRC
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Regardless of the character sheet you setup following those limitations apparently.A computer game doesn't give you the freedom of interactivity with the world and freedom of expression of your character that Roleplaying does.
If I wanted to play my stats I would play a videogame. In a videogame your character can't do anything the system doesn't explicitly permit him, where in roleplaying you can do and be anything you can imagine, within the limitations of the game.
Allow me to quote myself.
Otherwise? The stats are just numbers, they don't define my character, nor do they define the characters of my players when I GM. They're there for nothing more than the mechanical impacts they are explicitly stated to have in the rulesI roleplay to pretend to be someone else, I pour in the time and effort to painstakingly craft a unique and distinct identity for the character.
I'm not going to let the rules required to make him good at his job get in the way of his identity.
More power to ya, it's not going to effect my game. It just seems a little weird to me to play RPG for a while then break out character sheets to play wargame for a while then put the sheets away and go back to RPG. I suppose it doesn't seem like that to you, but that's exactly how it looks to me.
I suppose I may have been a bit unclear about what I meant.
A character's capabilities are dictated by the rules. You want backflipping there are rules for that.
A character's personality/identity is dictated by the story. Where and how they grew up, what their dreams and ambitions are, what sort of experiences they've had, all of it blended together with certain core personality traits to form a distinct 'person.]
That's how I run it and by far how I prefer to play it.
That phraseology I can agree with.
That being said, eloquence, articulation, and other aspects of communication are not personality, dreams, or ambitions. They are at best affectation, and at worst disabilities.
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It appears we've hit an impass, as I find that complete and utter seperation of the roleplayers from the game itself. You might as well play two seperate games, then.
As much as I disdain this phrase, I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Ugh, I don't even like typing that. It just means nothing.
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New confession! I feel players are far too entitled, and have little to no respect for the GM mandate. The game is for everyone, yes, but the GM does significantly more work than a player, so I think the right to make and arbitrate the rules is a fair trade off. If you want to play in an Eastern setting when the GM has decided it will be a world based on Mesopotamia, either shut up or start writing your own game, but in either case stop b****ing.
I also do not think character concept is of paramount importance, because there's billions possible, and if the GM shuts yours down or GOD FORBID the rules don't make it exactly as viable as you'd like, you can think of another.
There. Are. Billions. Of. Possibilities. Your snowflake doesn't mean the difference between enjoyment and disappointment unless you let it.
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New confession! I feel players are far too entitled, and have little to no respect for the GM mandate. The game is for everyone, yes, but the GM does significantly more work than a player, so I think the right to make and arbitrate the rules is a fair trade off. If you want to play in an Eastern setting when the GM has decided it will be a world based on Mesopotamia, either shut up or start writing your own game, but in either case stop b****ing.
I also do not think character concept is of paramount importance, because there's billions possible, and if the GM shuts yours down or GOD FORBID the rules don't make it exactly as viable as you'd like, you can think of another.
There. Are. Billions. Of. Possibilities. Your snowflake doesn't mean the difference between enjoyment and disappointment unless you let it.
In before special snowscape gets brought up.
If you are told beforehand what the game is going to be and you still try to get around any setting restrictions, you are a problem player.
I confess I wholeheartedly agree with thegreenteagamer. I've said it before on this topic: I'll gladly bend to help a player with their concept, but I won't bend over.
GTG I think you just might be the person on this thread I would shun most, if I were of a shunning mind :P
*shrug* I am used to being shunned. I went to high school and was intelligent...and I knew it. Arrogance is not conducive to easy socialization. Despite curbing that factor a lot . But I learned around college or so that for every person who shuns you there's another oddball who fits in with your isolation.
Looks - a favorite already to prove my point! Your potential shunning would not leave me alone good sir.
(Also, I hope you realize just because I disagree with your style and find it to be ludicrously silly and somewhat...flighty?...doesn't mean I hold any negative feelings to you as a person)
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I've said it before on this topic: I'll gladly bend to help a player with their concept, but I won't bend over.
Perfectly stated.
The numbers should be reflective of the concept despite not being a perfect description.
That is a two way street though, the numbers have limits which in turn should limit concept, if only to maintain the correlation between sheet and fluff.
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Confession: I actually think this thread is kind of just full of b~$*#%#% passive-aggression and I would be pretty fine with it not existing at all.
Don't shun me!
Here's a new confession, I don't believe that fried eggs have to have a runny yolk. Also, hamburgers taste pretty amazing with a fried egg on top.
Confession: I actually think this thread is kind of just full of b@#~#%!+ passive-aggression and I would be pretty fine with it not existing at all.
Don't shun me!
I hope you at least had a slight sense of self awareness as you were typing that.
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Kobold Cleaver does not trifle himself with awareness of any sort!
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Confession: I actually think this thread is kind of just full of b&*&+~&& passive-aggression and I would be pretty fine with it not existing at all.
Don't shun me!
There is some just plain aggressive aggressive in this thread. It feels like some get very angry that people do it "wrong" -- that is, not how they like. Funny thing is, they will never play with each other, so why get bent out of shape about it.
Kobold Cleaver,
Bro! Dude! My Hermono!
Now you get it! Here Homie have a Sheetcake, Don't eat it you might need it if you strike out, Ah, man did someone order another pitcher yet....
Okay guys so this may be totally out there, sorry if I get shunned, I know everyone disagrees with me and I am the plucky underdog, but I think modern music isn't as good as the Beatles, tabletop games aren't Satanism, freedom is good, beers should be cold, easily defended opinion, and The Phantom Menace wasn't as good as Return of the Jedi.
But this is probably totally out there because stupid GenericPoster16 some people recently disagreed with me on a thread with a mildly connected viewpoint keep saying I'm wrong, maybe I am, I dunno! Feel free to post and vindicate me now. But maybe I'm just crazy...
*Overwrought sigh*
Here's a new confession, I don't believe that fried eggs have to have a runny yolk. Also, hamburgers taste pretty amazing with a fried egg on top.
Yes yes yes.
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You were right this thread has gotten off its original light hearted intention, which almost never happens on the internet....
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You were right this thread has gotten off its original light hearted intention, which almost never happens on the internet....
Well the good news is, you and KC showing up to start throwing nonsense at each other is usually the herald of the end of a thread. So there's that.
I hate it when the player next to me hasn't bathed properly and will say so to his or her face.You are a true hero of our hobby (no sarcasm intended).
Absolutely
You were right this thread has gotten off its original light hearted intention, which almost never happens on the internet....Well the good news is, you and KC showing up to start throwing nonsense at each other is usually the herald of the end of a thread. So there's that.
I assure you good sir my nonsense hasn't even begun!
You were right this thread has gotten off its original light hearted intention, which almost never happens on the internet....Well the good news is, you and KC showing up to start throwing nonsense at each other is usually the herald of the end of a thread. So there's that.
C'mon, yesterday, let's start talking about the babies, just like old times!