Monks are Better than Fighters at high levels.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Lantern Lodge

Nicos wrote:

lormyr

Post here your non PFS 20th level monk and I will post a fighter to see what happens. If you go core then My fighter is just core, If you go non core then I will use wahtever book I have avalieable.

Use all your non-3rd party books bud (and no custom magic items - things get way out of hand at that point). For fairness, this monk uses the CRB and the following:

Advanced Race Guide, Blood of Angels, Cheliax, Empire of Devils, Dragon Empires Primer, Pathfinder Society Field Guide, Sargava, The Lost Colony, Seeker of Secrets, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Equipment, Ultimate Magic


core, isjust core rulebook.

Lantern Lodge

Understood Nicos, thanks for the clarification. And I agree, CRB only monks would definitely suffer.

Good thing we have a bunch of other options printed. ;)


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Lormyr wrote:
It just blows my mind that people think of monks so poorly. I by no means intend offense or insult, I simply wonder if folks who looked at the build had their minds swayed at all for a monk's potential. Thank you for looking it over and offering your analysis.

Parts of this come from 3.5, where the Monk class WAS fairly bad. More parts comes from the notion that a monk needs a high Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom to be effective (not true). More parts of this opinion come from abilities like "Tongue of Sun and Moon" and "Slow Fall" which aren't extremely optimized choices that most players look forward to getting.

In the long run, Archetypes saved the Monk class. It is possible to build a VERY powerful Monk using the right combination of archetypes, and unlike other classes (#1 Example: Bard), many monk archetypes combine with each other nicely.

Finally, the Lawful requirement of the Monk class has a lot of mental baggage behind it too. Even if a player would have picked a Lawful Monk anyway, there's a lot of negative mojo behind an option that dictates your roleplaying. That, and the Martial Artist is extremely hard to stack archetypes with. : /

I'd have to say that the big issue with the monk, aside from legacy problems, is the fact that making a good monk tends to require a lot more work that most other classes. With the right archetypes and gear anyone can make a scary monk, but most other classes can manage a lot better in their core build.

There's also the fact that monks seem to be built for mobile combat/skirmishing, which 3.5/Pathfinder just doesn't do much to reward as a combat style. Really, a lot of the monk's issues seem to stem from just having the bad luck of being tied to combat styles the system ended up making weak. Two-weapon fighting, skirmishing, and maneuvers are all (relatively) weak choices. There are also synergy issues, like Flurry being a stationary full attack ability on a mobile skirmishing class.

Hmm. Now I'm tempted to make a mobile skirmishing monk archetype, to see just how good they could get at it.

Lantern Lodge

Chengar Qordath wrote:


I'd have to say that the big issue with the monk, aside from legacy problems, is the fact that making a good monk tends to require a lot more work that most other classes. With the right archetypes and gear anyone can make a scary monk, but most other classes can manage a lot better in their core build.

There's also the fact that monks seem to be built for mobile combat/skirmishing, which 3.5/Pathfinder just doesn't do much to reward as a combat style. Really, a lot of the monk's issues seem to stem from just having the bad luck of being tied to combat styles the system ended up making weak. Two-weapon fighting, skirmishing, and maneuvers are all (relatively) weak choices. There are also synergy issues, like Flurry being a stationary full attack ability on a mobile skirmishing...

Well said. Making a very powerful monk requires a lot more research than it does the other classes.

A core rulebook only monk would also be somewhat sad. Why we would consider CRB only, however, baffles me when the ultimate and campaign lines really compensated.

Lantern Lodge

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Nicos,

Here's the de-PFS'd version. non-core, 20 point buy, 880k gold with no custom items.

Aasimar (Plumekith) Monk (Qinggong Monk) 20; AL LG
Medium Outsider (native)
Init +17, Senses Perception +35

DEFENSE
AC 52 (+12 Dex, +8 Wis, +5 monk, +8 armor, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +2 luck), touch 44, flat-footed 39; +4 sacred bonus against attacks of opportunity made with natural attacks
hp 263 (20d8+160)
Fort +28, Ref +33, Will +29

OFFENSE
Speed 90 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +34/+29/+24 (2d10+17/19-20 x2) or
Melee unarmed strike +37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22 (2d10+17/19-20 x2) with Flurry of Blows

STATISTICS
Str 11, Dex 34, Con 24, Int 13, Wis 26, Cha 7
Base Atk +15; CMB +41 (+43 disarm and trip); CMD 61 (63 vs. disarm, grapple, and reposition; 65 vs. trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Blind-Fight, Celestial Obedience, Combat Expertise, Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Traits Fate's Favored, Quain Martial Artist
Skills Acrobatics +25, Escape Artist +39, Perception +35, Sense Motive +37, Stealth +39, Use Magic Device +16
Features Abundant step (2 ki), barkskin (1 ki), blood crow strike (2 ki), cold ice strike (DC 28; 3 ki), courageous roar, darkvision, dauntless, deathless spirit, diamond body, diamond soul, empty body (3 ki), evasion, fast movement, flurry of blows, improved evasion, ki pool (adamantine, cold iron, lawful, magic, silver) 18, maneuver training, native outsider, obedience, perfect self, purity of body, quivering palm (DC 28) 1/day, scorching ray (2 ki), spell-like abilities (3/day- stilled greater heroism (as 7th-level spell); 1/day- heroism, see invisibility. CL 20th.), still mind, stunning fist (blind or deafened, fatigued, sickened, staggered; DC 28) 20/day, truespeaker, unarmed strike, wholeness of body (2 ki)
Combat Gear none Other Gear +4 agile amulet of mighty fists, bane baldric (attuned to unarmed strike), belt of physical might (Constitution and Dexterity) +6, boots of speed, bracers of armor +8, cloak of resistance +5, headband of inspired wisdom +6, dusty rose prism ioun stone, flawed pale green prism ioun stone, pale green prism ioun stone, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, ring of ki mastery (storing 2 ki), ring of protection +5, rod of balance, staff of minor arcana, stone of good luck, wayfinder
Ioun Stones Note The dusty rose prism ioun stone is slotted into Monk's wayfinder. All other ioun stones are implanted into his body.
Manuals and Tomes Monk has read a manual of bodily health +4, a manual of quickness of action +5, and a tome of understanding +5.

Notes: This statline does not include any of the following: barkskin, greater heroism, see invisibility, shield, Combat Expertise, or fighting defensively. With these things active, his combat statline appears as follows:

AC 71 (+12 Dex, +8 Wis, +5 monk, +8 armor, +5 deflection, +11 dodge, +1 insight, +2 luck, +5 natural, +4 shield), touch 54, flat-footed 48; +4 sacred bonus against attacks of opportunity made with natural attacks
hp 263 (20d8+160)
Fort +31, Ref +36, Will +32

OFFENSE
Speed 90 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +32/+27/+22 (2d10+17/19-20 x2) or
Melee unarmed strike +35/+35/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20 (2d10+17/19-20 x2) with Flurry of Blows

STATISTICS
Str 11, Dex 34, Con 24, Int 13, Wis 26, Cha 7
Base Atk +15; CMB +39 (+41 disarm and trip); CMD 71 (73 vs. disarm, grapple, and reposition; 75 vs. trip)

In addition to the above, he can spend ki for ki dodge (+4 dodge bonus to AC and CMD), and active his bane baldric and boots of haste. These things are of very limited duration however, so are not reflected in the stat blocks above.


Ok, how do you want to do this? a 1 vs 1 combat?

Lantern Lodge

Nicos wrote:
Ok, how do you want to do this? a 1 vs 1 combat?

That's fine. Or we can just toss the blocks out there and discuss them without dueling. My only interest in this is showing folks monks don't have to be subpar as they believe them to be.


Lormyr,

The discussion should focus on a party environment. What does the monk do? What does the fighter do? It should assume buffs and support from an average party against a particular monster a level 20 character would fight.

I've ran a lvl 20 Zen Archer with a lvl 20 two-handed fighter together. Both very well-equipped, though the Zen Archer wasn't using UMD, boons, or any of that stuff. The fighter vastly outdamaged the monk. He hit like a truck. Any crit was dead time for whatever he hit. Looking at your offense, you're not close to doing as much damage as the fighter. I think in the test you'll find that to be the case. A substantially subpar offense is the main complaint concerning the monk. I think you will see why when the test is conducted.

I hope Nicos made a two-hander fighter, since they are the beastly damage dealers of the fighter archetypes. Their damage is fricking sick. I think they must be the biggest single hit damage dealer in the game besides perhaps a pouncing barbarian using Raging Brutality (basically 3 rounds of rage to use a Cavalier or Samurai's ability for 1 round...which is all they need).

Just to give you an example of the damage output lvl 20 Two-hander fighter I ran with standard haste and party buffs:

His attack sequence at lvl 20 with a 36 strength:

Opening Attack: Devastating Blow:
To hit: +20 BAB +13 str +5 Adamantine Greataxe (He liked to sunder) +4 weapon training +2 Greater Weapon Focus +1 Haste -5 Devastating Blow -6 Power Attack = +34 attack (Good enough to hit most creatures even at lvl 20)

Damage: 1d12 +19 Str +24 PA +5 Weapon +4 Weapon Training +4 GWS =62 points on a base hit.
Crit for Devastating Blow: 248 points of damage.

This was his opening attack. A 248 point hit.

Then it got worse:

Attack Sequence while hasted with Backswing:
+39/+39/+34/+29/+24
All crits auto-confirmed. Crit range: 19-20

1st Attack damage: 62
2nd to 5th attack damage: 1d12 +26 +24 +5 +4 +4 =69

Average crit 1st attack: 248
Average crit 2nd to 5th: 276

Let's just say no one kept up with him for damage. They buffed this guy up and sent him at things like he was the party Eidolon or something.

The only reason he didn't use a Falchion is he liked the look of a Greataxe. A two-hander Falchion wielder is an even sicker damage machine over a few rounds.

At level 20 you're pretty well protected from negative effects. He wore a ring of freedom of movement to deal with difficult terrain and hold spells and paralysis. He usually received a protection from evil to deal with domination before heading into battle.

My monk can't compete with that damage. No monk can that I've seen. Then again not many classes can. A Come and Get Me barbarian, a disintegrate Magus if the opponent misses their save, or a smiting paladin or challenging cavalier/samurai. The fighter does it every round. His defensive weaknesses are mitigated by having a quality party around him healing him up and buffing him. They are vicious damage dealers at high level.

Lantern Lodge

Raith,

Let's examine one issue at a time. Some posts back, you had said to me at level 20, a fighter would kill a monk. I have posted this build in effort to contest that statement.

In a discussion of damage, I am well aware of the combat prowess of a fighter with the two-handed archetype. My PFS monk played beside one for 18 levels. They are hoss when they can get a full attack off. Depending upon the AC of an enemy, the monk is capable of putting out similar damage through volume of attacks.

Very shorthand damage build to compare with:

Monk 20
Str 38
Key magic items: +5 amulet of mighty fists, belt of giant strength +6, boots of speed, juggernaut's pauldrons, manual of gainful exercise +5
Party buffs: strong jaw

Important Feats: Arcane Strike, Dragon Style Feats, Power Attack

To hit: 18 BAB, 14 Str, -1 size, 5 amulet of mighty fists, 1 weapon focus, 1 competence (ioun stone), 1 morale (ioun stone), 1 haste, -4 power attack

Damage: 21 Str, 5 amulet, 8 power attack, 5 arcane strike

Final Attack Routine
+36/+36/+36/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21 (8d8+39/19-20 x2)

Average damage per hit is 75, higher than that fighter, and has almost double the fighter's number of attacks. The fighter's crits are better, however. All things considered, that is fine damage, wouldn't you say?

Edit: While I personally like monks better because I prefer defense to offense, I am not trying to blanket state monks are better or fighters suck or anything like that. Just trying to highlight what monks are capable of. They can be built in many ways for many purposes.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
You do not have to be blind to the faults of something to love it (ask any married man or woman).
If you talk about your spouse the way you talk about the monk, do not expect to be married long.

{looks at divorce papers}

Damn, so that's what she meant.

Seriously, though, the monk has some mechanical issues. I love the concept, I love some of what has been done with the class, and the rest is one big garb-bag of nerfness. It needs fixing, and it won't take a lot to fix it either.

Sangalor wrote:
You are still not getting the point.

One of us isn't, certainly.

Sangalor wrote:
The monk is not supposed to *best* at something, he is supposed to be competent and *good* at many things.

And you aren't getting that the problem here is that the monk is not *good* at a lot of things. He's good at two, mobility, and saves.

Skills? He's not good, he's baseline. Just because fighters and paladins are below the baseline does not make the monk good.
Combat? He's not good, he's the worst of the combat classes. He's only slightly better than the rogue for heaven's sake!
Special Abilities? Core monk gets a grab-bag that don't really work well together, although a few are nice they seem to arrive rather late in the game to make a difference.

Sangalor wrote:
The package of the monk is great, and though many arguments you make sound good, fact is none of your (counter) examples can do everything the monk can do.

Actually, they can with a few items of equipment. A barbarian with boots of speed pretty much beats the monk hands-down. He's not quite matching the monk at saves, but everywhere else...yeah, monk's out of the running. Builds have been produced to prove this in past threads.

Sangalor wrote:
Nothing is as mobile, as defensive,

That combo is all the mponk has

Sangalor wrote:
as self-sufficient,

Sorry but, (a) that really isn't the point in a team game and (b) it isn't even true, the monk is as equipment dependent as anyone.

Sangalor wrote:
as decent at damage,

No, sorry, just no. Fighter, paladin, barbarian all beat the monk hands down for damage. Ranger struggles at it, but has favoured enemy and a lot more than the monk in just about everywhere else.

Sangalor wrote:
as able to provide status effects etc. as the monk.

You missed the part where I pointed out that even a SPECIALIST at stunning fist couldn't make it work reliably, didn't you?

Sangalor wrote:
Many builds, regardless which class you use, can be better if not much better at 2 or 3 things, but they won't be able to do everything.

The sad thing is, Sangalor, that looking at that list of yours neither will a monk. And yes, many builds can be better (a LOT better) at two or three things than the monk, and passable enough at the rest that they are not a liability.

Sangalor wrote:
You seem to have a very fixed image of what the monk is supposed to be like and in what way a monk "contributes to a party".

And I have yet to see anyone say how the monk DOES contribute to a party save with a list of things that every other class does better than the monk - except run away.

What is the thing that makes the rest of the party pick a monk over any other class as a party member? No one has satisfactorily answered this question.

Sangalor wrote:
What you can't seem to accept is that the monk can be fine and adequate just the way he is - as another poster pointed out it is hard to look at all your posts and find love for the monk in it, at least as long as it does not fit your picture of the unarmed improved fighter. You may mean it, but it comes across differently.

The problem, Sangalor IS THAT I HAVE TRIED EVERY WHICH WAY YOU CAN MENTION TO CONTRIBUTE TO A PARTY WITH A MONK. Not theory-crafted, actually played and tried. None of them worked well.

I'm fine with people having fun playing monks, because I do. But I'd like to be playing the hero and not the sidekick with one.

Sangalor wrote:
I also cannot share your views on immunities. Immunities are *great*.

They are useful, I have not denied this, but they are not the be-all and end-all, and their value is less when you have good saves anyway. Also the monk gets them later than the threats themselves show up - for example, you can run into wererats at 2nd or 3rd level, but the monk gets immunity to disease at 5th - the paladin gets it at 3rd.

Sangalor wrote:
Your argument that the other classes "will save anyway" is a strawman.

It would be if I had argued that. I have argued that other classes get "good enough" saves, yes, but that's not the same as "will save anyway". "Good enough" means good enough not to be a liability (failing all the time), and able to be covered by another party member with a spell at need.

The monk's saves and immunities are nice, but they are not an asset, they are just not a liability.

Sangalor wrote:
Certainly they will save many times - but they will fail. For example, in a poison intensive adventure path such as serpent skull immunity to poison is invaluable. Immunity is completely different from having good saves.

In a poison-intensive adventure, immunity would be very good indeed. SO if there are any poison intensive adventures for 11th level characters and above, I will grant you that a monk will do well.

Sangalor wrote:
Regarding the spell resistance, you apparently neither read the thread I linked to nor what I wrote.

I read it all right, but clearly you did not read the reply.

SR clearly states that it effects even harmless, healing spells, unless you take a standard action to lower it.

Sangalor wrote:
You have your own view on how SR works, that's fine.

I use the RAW, end of.

Sangalor wrote:
To me it's perfectly clear it works differently in the case of cure spells. And apparently that view is shared by quite a few people, hence the FAQ thread.

I cannot find the FAQ answer that says SR does NOT effect cure spells in the FAQs. I can find the description of [urel=http://paizo.com/prd/glossary.html#_spell-resistance]SR[/url], and it mentions no exceptions. However even if cure spells are not effected, it still means that buffs-on-the-fly are.

Sangalor wrote:
Finally you asked what the point of flurry of blows is.

In the context that you clearly do not think the monk is meant to either fight unarmed, or use flurry of blows, yes. You have not explained here why you think the monk has these prominent offensive features if he is not meant to stand still and fight sometimes, which you maintained the monk should not do.

Sangalor wrote:
It's fine for you to have your view on the monk, and the way you present it is not wrong. It's just that what I expect of the monk and what I consider to be important is something completely different, and there the monk does really well - much better than a barbarian, a fighter, a paladin, a ranger or another martial class. :-)

I get that you do not expect the monk to be able to pull his weight in a party, which is cool if that's how you have your fun as a stand-in for an animal companion, but you will never persuade me that he shouldn't and I will continue to advocate that he be changed so that he can.

Raith Shadar wrote:

And one area I firmly agree with Dabbler on, I want my monk to be able to stand toe to toe flurrying an opponent with unarmed strikes doing great damage like a fighter, barb, or paladin does with a full attack. I did not make a monk to wander around a battle field giving flank bonuses to other characters so they can take the glory. That is not at all what I made a monk for. If that is what Paizo intended, that is just lame.

Monk should be like the Wuxia fighters in Kung Fu movies. There should be a few monks that are like two-handed fighters giving up defenses for damage. Just like the highly defensive monks should give up damage for defenses. They should definitely be able to stand toe to toe in combat more like the fighter or paladin than the rogue.

And that, basically, is what the monk is MEANT to be. And he isn't.


Lormyr wrote:

Average damage per hit is 75, higher than that fighter, and has almost double the fighter's number of attacks. The fighter's crits are better, however. All things considered, that is fine damage, wouldn't you say?

Edit: While I personally like monks better because I prefer defense to offense, I am not trying to blanket state monks are better or fighters suck or anything like that. Just trying to highlight what monks are capable of. They can be built in many ways for many purposes.

What's your monk's AC? HP? CMB/CMD? The damage is great, but what did he have to give up?


Lormyr wrote:

Raith,

Let's examine one issue at a time. Some posts back, you had said to me at level 20, a fighter would kill a monk. I have posted this build in effort to contest that statement.

I do not like half build sometimes they hide big weakness in the character.

I have posted 3 fighters in this thread, all with all the relevant numbers so you can see their CMB/CMD, hit points, AC, Touch AC, etc. and all of the build I posted are unbuffed and they are not particularly min maxed (They only have one dumped stat).

For example your monk need a party buff and a spend a standard action to active his pauldron. That is an entire round without attacking and the action of an ally (if you cast strong jaw yourself you need two rounds before start doing damage). And, also very important, you do not have a cloak of resistance so I doubt you have an advantage in saves against the fighter. Can he fly, can he see invisible opponets?

I will post new build in the evening, I can see your full dex based monk and I would like to see your full strength based monk too.

For example, using more or less the same numbers, a dervish of dawn level 20 (suming lead blades and enlarge person)

+20 BAB + 14 str + 6 Weapon training +1 competence +1 + 1 morale +1 haste -1 size -6 power attack +2 weapon focus +5 weapon -2 lighting strike = +41/+41/+41/+36/+31/+26 (3d6+54 15-20x3).


Personally I find it funny that people are arguing if the monk can begin to MATCH a fighter. Why? Because of all the martials, the fighter is often considered one of the weaker ones. So the monk can MAYBE match the figher. Now how about a barbarian? Or a Paladin? CAGM Barbarian would tear a monk to shreds and the mounted rager barbarian builds can 1 shot just about anything if given a charging lane.

@Sangalor:

Whoopie? You know who can provide better flanking, better de-buffing, better combat control, AND better combat ability than the monk? A summoner. So what you are saying is that the monk is about as useful as a summon monster spell. Pretty weak arguement. The monk literally provides NOTHING to a party that another class cannot do as well AND having other abilites while doing it. I would infinetely prefer having a alchemist over a monk (at least he can provide buffs to the party, can debuff/CC the enemy, heal the party OOC, AND has a rediculous wall of skills [4+int while being Int primary is pretty nice])

Lantern Lodge

Dabbler wrote:
Lormyr wrote:

Average damage per hit is 75, higher than that fighter, and has almost double the fighter's number of attacks. The fighter's crits are better, however. All things considered, that is fine damage, wouldn't you say?

Edit: While I personally like monks better because I prefer defense to offense, I am not trying to blanket state monks are better or fighters suck or anything like that. Just trying to highlight what monks are capable of. They can be built in many ways for many purposes.

What's your monk's AC? HP? CMB/CMD? The damage is great, but what did he have to give up?

I did not factor those things, as Raith appeared interested in a straight damage potential comparison. See full stat block below.

Lantern Lodge

Nicos wrote:
Lormyr wrote:

Raith,

Let's examine one issue at a time. Some posts back, you had said to me at level 20, a fighter would kill a monk. I have posted this build in effort to contest that statement.

I do not like half build sometimes they hide big weakness in the character.

I have posted 3 fighters in this thread, all with all the relevant numbers so you can see their CMB/CMD, hit points, AC, Touch AC, etc. and all of the build I posted are unbuffed and they are not particularly min maxed (They only have one dumped stat).

For example your monk need a party buff and a spend a standard action to active his pauldron. That is an entire round without attacking and the action of an ally (if you cast strong jaw yourself you need two rounds before start doing damage). And, also very important, you do not have a cloak of resistance so I doubt you have an advantage in saves against the fighter.

I will post new build in the evening, I can see your full dex based monk and I would like to see your full strength based monk too.

Ok, I will post out the full build. The saves work out ok because of otherwordly kimono. Also, the pauldrons can be used at will for 5 minutes per bout. There is no reason not to have it constantly active if you believe you may be facing trouble.

Normally I would not include party buffs either, but Raith wished too for his comparison. I will edit that out when I place the full build. The only buffs I will ever include in a build are self buffs with durations of several minutes or longer.

Lantern Lodge

Str build monk. non-core, 20 point buy, 880k gold with no custom items.

Human Monk (Qinggong Monk) 20; AL LN
Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +4, Senses Perception +31

DEFENSE
AC 48 (+4 Dex, +7 Wis, +5 monk, +8 armor, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +2 luck, +5 natural), touch 35, flat-footed 43
hp 203 (20d8+100)
Fort +22, Ref +22, Will +25

OFFENSE
Speed 90 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +36/+31/+26 (4d8+27/19-20 x2) or
Melee unarmed strike +39/+39/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24 (4d8+27/19-20 x2) with Flurry of Blows
Melee unarmed strike +35/+35/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20 (4d8+40/19-20 x2) with Flurry of Blows, Arcane Strike, and Power Attack
Ranged n/a

STATISTICS
Str 38, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 24, Cha 7
Base Atk +15; CMB +44 (+48 disarm, grapple, trip); CMD 70 (72 disarm, grapple, and trip)
Feats Arcane Strike, Blind-Fight, Dodge, Dragon Ferocity, Dragon's Roar, Dragon Style, Greater Disarm, Greater Grapple, Greater Trip, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Traits Fate's Favored, Quain Martial Artist
Skills Acrobatics +28, Escape Artist +28, Perception +31, Sense Motive +31
Features Abundant step (2 ki), barkskin (1 ki), blood crow strike (2 ki), cold ice strike (DC 27; 3 ki), diamond body, diamond soul, dual talent, empty body (3 ki), evasion, fast movement, flurry of blows, improved evasion, ki pool (adamantine, cold iron, lawful, magic, silver) 17, maneuver training, purity of body, quivering palm (DC 27) 1/day, scorching ray (2 ki), still mind, stunning fist (blind or deafened, fatigued, sickened, staggered; DC 27) 20/day, unarmed strike, wholeness of body (2 ki)
Combat Gear none; Other Gear +5 amulet of mighty fists, belt of physical perfection +6, boots of speed, bracers of armor +8, headband of inspired wisdom +6, 2 cracked pale green prism ioun stones (attack rolls and saving throws), dusty rose prism ioun stone, flawed pale green prism ioun stone, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, juggernaut's pauldrons, otherwordly's kimono, ring of protection +5, wayfinder, manual of gainful exercise +5, manual of quickness in action +2, tome of understanding +4
Ioun Stones Note The dusty rose prism ioun stone is slotted into Monk's wayfinder. All other ioun stones are implanted into his body.

Shadow Lodge

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monks are awesome.

my truestriking, face smashing, turtle clutching, dimentional agility-ing, tetori says hi!

any character who can grapple someone, pin them in the same round then dimension door up for the world most epic powerbomb, is just so awesome.

Lantern Lodge

While the damage of the strength monk is superior to the Dex monk, I personally find him too squishy for my play preferences. I know more folks prefer offense to defense however, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Lantern Lodge

Nicos wrote:

For example, using more or less the same numbers, a dervish of dawn level 20 (suming lead blades and enlarge person)

+20 BAB + 14 str + 6 Weapon training +1 competence +1 + 1 morale +1 haste -1 size -6 power attack +2 weapon focus +5 weapon -2 lighting strike = +41/+41/+41/+36/+31/+26 (3d6+54 15-20x3).

That is a fantastic attack routine, so I am not bashing it at all. This fellow still cannot hit the dex monk without a 20, however. Depending on how his AC and CMD turn out, he may get wrecked from reprisal attacks, or just have his weapon snatched from his hands with disarm.


Lormyr wrote:
Nicos wrote:

For example, using more or less the same numbers, a dervish of dawn level 20 (suming lead blades and enlarge person)

+20 BAB + 14 str + 6 Weapon training +1 competence +1 + 1 morale +1 haste -1 size -6 power attack +2 weapon focus +5 weapon -2 lighting strike = +41/+41/+41/+36/+31/+26 (3d6+54 15-20x3).

That is a fantastic attack routine, so I am not bashing it at all. This fellow still cannot hit the dex monk without a 20, however. Depending on how his AC and CMD turn out, he may get wrecked from reprisal attacks, or just have his weapon snatched from his hands with disarm.

true but your monk uses several buff for have that 71 AC and do not suffer that much in his offensive, note however that with one lucky roll the fighter does 9d6+162 of damage since he do not need to confirm his critical hit. Note also that he can not be disarmed or sundered and his CMD against trip and grapple is probably in the 70+. If he is allowed to have buff his Ac is probably in the 50+.

Still, I find that uber min maxed character are not that representative of the class, with a fighter (or any other class for the matter) I would prefer to do less damage but still have means to do the things like fly, deal with invisible foe, deal with incorporeal foes, etc.

Lantern Lodge

Nicos wrote:

true but your monk uses several build for have that 71 AC and do not suffer that much in his offensive, note however that with one lucky roll the fighter does 9d6+162 of damage since he do not need to confirm his critical hit.

Still, I find that uber min maxed character are not that representative of the class, with a fighter (or any other class for the matter) I would prefer to do less damage but still have means to do the things like fly, deal with invisible foe, deal with incorporeal foes, etc.

One hit every round would get completely negated with crane wing. If another lucky crit happened, the jingasa of the fortunate soldier would also negate the critical damage once per day. That particular monk is extremely tanky. I have not found a combat build that can rival it - only extreme luck on dice rolls. There are builds that it cannot hit without a natural 20 either, however.

I agree with you on many points, though. Core only monks are rough, fighters are much easier to make very effective, and their damage is almost always more impressive.

All I hope to show here is that monks can be made quite effective if one builds them properly.

If we wanted to do a straight surprise combat as well, with absolutely no self-buffs of any kind, the Dex monk will likely win initiative, run off or abundant step away to throw his 3 buffs, and come back ready.
In the vast majority of dungeon scenarios, however, 3 hr and 20 mins of barkskin and see invisibility, and an hour of greater heroism is more than enough to see it through. When I ran him in PFS scenarios and modules, he was never without the barkskin, as he would just spend 1 ki to reuse it 10 mins before the duration ran out.


Lormyr wrote:

Raith,

Let's examine one issue at a time. Some posts back, you had said to me at level 20, a fighter would kill a monk. I have posted this build in effort to contest that statement.

In a discussion of damage, I am well aware of the combat prowess of a fighter with the two-handed archetype. My PFS monk played beside one for 18 levels. They are hoss when they can get a full attack off. Depending upon the AC of an enemy, the monk is capable of putting out similar damage through volume of attacks.

Very shorthand damage build to compare with:

Monk 20
Str 38
Key magic items: +5 amulet of mighty fists, belt of giant strength +6, boots of speed, juggernaut's pauldrons, manual of gainful exercise +5
Party buffs: strong jaw

Important Feats: Arcane Strike, Dragon Style Feats, Power Attack

To hit: 18 BAB, 14 Str, -1 size, 5 amulet of mighty fists, 1 weapon focus, 1 competence (ioun stone), 1 morale (ioun stone), 1 haste, -4 power attack

Damage: 21 Str, 5 amulet, 8 power attack, 5 arcane strike

Final Attack Routine
+36/+36/+36/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21 (8d8+39/19-20 x2)

Average damage per hit is 75, higher than that fighter, and has almost double the fighter's number of attacks. The fighter's crits are better, however. All things considered, that is fine damage, wouldn't you say?

Edit: While I personally like monks better because I prefer defense to offense, I am not trying to blanket state monks are better or fighters suck or anything like that. Just trying to highlight what monks are capable of. They can be built in many ways for many purposes.

How did you get the 38 strength? The half-orc fighter was maxed. But somehow you researched some magic item to give you a higher strength?

You're using magic items to make up for a lack of class abilities. You are winning based solely on magic items, not class abilities. A fighter will kill a monk if he isn't some whacky build like yours with UMD. I am not going to take the time to find every optimal thing from every book to build the character as you have. I'm fairly certain if I did, you would have problems with the fighter.

For example, if you focus a two-hander fighter on Sundering, finding every little bonus you can find, he can sunder key items on your person. Your build is very non-standard. I'm quite sure someone maxing a fighter out using every book and magic item possible can find a way to beat that guy. Does Crane Style allow you to deflect a Sunder attempt?

When a character needs magic items far above and beyond what is normal to compete, you're not really on a level playing field.


Lormyr wrote:
Nicos wrote:

true but your monk uses several build for have that 71 AC and do not suffer that much in his offensive, note however that with one lucky roll the fighter does 9d6+162 of damage since he do not need to confirm his critical hit.

Still, I find that uber min maxed character are not that representative of the class, with a fighter (or any other class for the matter) I would prefer to do less damage but still have means to do the things like fly, deal with invisible foe, deal with incorporeal foes, etc.

One hit every round would get completely negated with crane wing. If another lucky crit happened, the jingasa of the fortunate soldier would also negate the critical damage once per day. That particular monk is extremely tanky. I have not found a combat build that can rival it - only extreme luck on dice rolls. There are builds that it cannot hit without a natural 20 either, however.

I agree with you on many points, though. Core only monks are rough, fighters are much easier to make very effective, and their damage is almost always more impressive.

All I hope to show here is that monks can be made quite effective if one builds them properly.

If we wanted to do a straight surprise combat as well, with absolutely no self-buffs of any kind, the Dex monk will likely win initiative, run off or abundant step away to throw his 3 buffs, and come back ready.
In the vast majority of dungeon scenarios, however, 3 hr and 20 mins of barkskin and see invisibility, and an hour of greater heroism is more than enough to see it through. When I ran him in PFS scenarios and modules, he was never without the barkskin, as he would just spend 1 ki to reuse it 10 mins before the duration ran out.

You mention your magic items more than your class abilities. Great, you picked a bunch of ideal magic items. What can the monk do?

Let's take off all the magic items and put you mano y mano versus the fighter. Fighter gets regular axe. You get your hands. Who wins then? Base class abilities?


Lormyr wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Lormyr wrote:

Average damage per hit is 75, higher than that fighter, and has almost double the fighter's number of attacks. The fighter's crits are better, however. All things considered, that is fine damage, wouldn't you say?

Edit: While I personally like monks better because I prefer defense to offense, I am not trying to blanket state monks are better or fighters suck or anything like that. Just trying to highlight what monks are capable of. They can be built in many ways for many purposes.

What's your monk's AC? HP? CMB/CMD? The damage is great, but what did he have to give up?
I did not factor those things, as Raith appeared interested in a straight damage potential comparison. See full stat block below.

Your attack routined can be eliminated by a dispel magic or mordenkainen's disjunction. An extremely common spell at level 20. You're relying on strong jaw to match the guy? I have no idea how you got to +75 damage. That sounds like horse puckey.

Lantern Lodge

Raith Shadar wrote:

How did you get the 38 strength? The half-orc fighter was maxed. But somehow you researched some magic item to give you a higher strength?

You mention your magic items more than your class abilities. Great, you picked a bunch of ideal magic items. What can the monk do?

Let's take off all the magic items and put you mano y mano versus the fighter. Fighter gets regular axe. You get your hands. Who wins then? Base...

Juggernaut's pauldrons allow enlarge person at will, in 5 minute durations. Perhaps you might consider taking just a moment to look everything over careful and understand where the numbers comes from before just calling horse puckey? Just a thought, and no offense intended.

I'm not trying to argue who is better. I just wish to showcase that monks can be awesome.

But sure, draw it up. The monk will roll no items at all, the fighter can have normal non-masterwork armor and weapons as necessary. This one probably goes to the fighter, but I'd be happy to offer comparison.

Lantern Lodge

Raith Shadar wrote:
Lormyr wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Lormyr wrote:

Average damage per hit is 75, higher than that fighter, and has almost double the fighter's number of attacks. The fighter's crits are better, however. All things considered, that is fine damage, wouldn't you say?

Edit: While I personally like monks better because I prefer defense to offense, I am not trying to blanket state monks are better or fighters suck or anything like that. Just trying to highlight what monks are capable of. They can be built in many ways for many purposes.

What's your monk's AC? HP? CMB/CMD? The damage is great, but what did he have to give up?
I did not factor those things, as Raith appeared interested in a straight damage potential comparison. See full stat block below.
Your attack routined can be eliminated by a dispel magic or mordenkainen's disjunction. An extremely common spell at level 20. You're relying on strong jaw to match the guy? I have no idea how you got to +75 damage. That sounds like horse puckey.

You have misread the post. It is not +75, it is an average of 75 damage per hit.

Factoring in mage's disjunction takes this comparison well out of the bounds of monk vs. fighter as well. It is likely to bone them both equally as all magic items would need to save or be turned off/destroyed as well.


Lormyr wrote:
Raith Shadar wrote:

You mention your magic items more than your class abilities. Great, you picked a bunch of ideal magic items. What can the monk do?

Let's take off all the magic items and put you mano y mano versus the fighter. Fighter gets regular axe. You get your hands. Who wins then? Base...

I'm not trying to argue who is better. I just wish to showcase that monks can be awesome.

But sure, draw it up. The monk will roll no items at all, the fighter can have normal non-masterwork armor and weapons as necessary. This one probably goes to the fighter, but I'd be happy to offer comparison.

You mean monks with the ability to pick perfect magic items are awesome. Regular monks that have to run in campaigns where you're often limited by the town's gp limit not so much.

You're builds completely rely on magic items to compete. The Fighter build I listed is standard magic items easily obtained. Most of them are Core Rule Book items. Your builds seem to come from sifting through every book to find every magic item possible to give you an advantage.

That fighter build I listed was a standard fighter who did his attacks every combat with only a haste spell active. A very common situation.

You're talking about taking the time to cast a shield spell using UMD. And you're using very non-standard magic items. To me that's not an awesome monk, that's awesome magic items.


Lormyr wrote:
Raith Shadar wrote:
Lormyr wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Lormyr wrote:

Average damage per hit is 75, higher than that fighter, and has almost double the fighter's number of attacks. The fighter's crits are better, however. All things considered, that is fine damage, wouldn't you say?

Edit: While I personally like monks better because I prefer defense to offense, I am not trying to blanket state monks are better or fighters suck or anything like that. Just trying to highlight what monks are capable of. They can be built in many ways for many purposes.

What's your monk's AC? HP? CMB/CMD? The damage is great, but what did he have to give up?
I did not factor those things, as Raith appeared interested in a straight damage potential comparison. See full stat block below.
Your attack routined can be eliminated by a dispel magic or mordenkainen's disjunction. An extremely common spell at level 20. You're relying on strong jaw to match the guy? I have no idea how you got to +75 damage. That sounds like horse puckey.

You have misread the post. It is not +75, it is an average of 75 damage per hit.

Factoring in mage's disjunction takes this comparison well out of the bounds of monk vs. fighter as well. It is likely to bone them both equally as all magic items would need to save or be turned off/destroyed as well.

It doesn't bone the fighter near as much. Your builds are almost solely dependent on magic items. The figthter loses 13 damage and 10 to hit. He was wearing Adamantine Full Plate. So he still gets his DR. He wasn't near as magic item dependent as the monk.


This is too strange for a comparison. Too many variables. I don't allow that level of magic item accumulation in general in our campaigns. I'm fairly certain that a fighter specialist probably has a better knowledge than I do of every single strange magic item that might boost his abilities.

I would much prefer the test be based on class abilities, not strange magic items a player has picked up from scouring every single source out there. Fighter versus Monk should stick to basics. If the monk is only better or equal when he has certain magic items, he's not really equal.

As an example, check out this character Raith Shadar. He is a Hungry Ghost Monk with Crane Style. I will never have access to the magic items your character has. I'm not even sure if my DM would have allowed the Agile Enhancement considering he uses only CRB, APG, UC, and UM. He doesn't use companions or the like.

That is the monk the majority of us have to play with. We don't get to scour every book to pick any magic item we feel like. Nor do we get a ton of boons. If you want to show the monk is fine, use the same rules I have to follow in the majority of my campaigns.

Lantern Lodge

Raith Shadar wrote:
He wasn't near as magic item dependent as the monk.

Agreed, monks are def more item dependent than other melee's. I still believe a good monk build would stand up better than you suspect vs. fighter in the no item match. I will post a build here in a bit when time allows.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Those goalposts sure are moving around here.

In any case, that's a fine build Lormyr, thanks for showing me it.


Raith Shadar wrote:
The Half Orc Fighter

Sohei 20, with more or less the same stats:

Damage:
1d10 + 13 Str + 18 PA + 3Weapon Training + 5weapon = 39 (15-20/x2)

To Hit when Flurrying: +20 BAB, +13 str, +5 Adamantine Nodachi, +3 weapon training, +1 weapon focus, +1 haste, -2 flurry, -6 power attack = 35

Attack Routine when hasted and using Ki
+35/+35/+35/+35/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21 (1d10+39 15-20/x2)

These numbers can be higher, but I'm using your stats and gear instead. You forgot a key fighter item by the way, the gloves of duelling, that I can use too.

There are two ways to gain a full attack without starting next to an opponent: Quick Runner's Shirt, and a store bought flying mount using the Mounted Skirmisher feat. Both ultimate equipment. Unfair to use a store bought mount you say? Its half the Sohei's class features, that's like saying your two hand fighter can only use one handed weapon. Opponent targets your mount? Use your ride check as AC. If there's a surprise round, the Sohei can act no matter what, so you can move to your opponent for full attack. Also his initiative is always counted as a natural 20. So surprise round move next to your opponent, negate the standard action attack using crane wing (or trick riding, if you allow a mount), then flurry. Your mount disabled due to a spell? Peel an onion, quick dismount as a free action, then full action flurry.

Add in other Paizo supplements and the Sohei (or any monk really) can automatically daze half the bestiary once per round as a swift action. Also, can use ride checks as its mount's saving throws.

Other stuff: Can flurry in armour (I don't factor this into my calculation because too many RAW vs RAI discussions)

Want a full build? Let me see yours first.


Although I really do not like builds that depends solely on a specific magic item (like the agile amulet of the migthy fist), a comparison without magic items was not a goal of this thread So do not think that is good now to move the goalpost now.


Sohei and zen archers are two of the archetypes that are generally considered to be fine. Nobody will argue that you can make a great sohei.

Also if yo use crane wings you can not make your AoO with then nodachi, .


Nicos wrote:

Sohei and zen archers are two of the archetypes that are generally considered to be fine. Nobody will argue that you can make a great sohei.

Also if yo use crane wings you can not make your AoO with then nodachi, .

Fair enough. A lot of that was done from memory, so you can remove crane wing from the build.

Sczarni

So what is the verdict guys? Too many pages to read through since I last checked after the OP posted a Monk build to go by...

Lantern Lodge

For those doubters:

non-core, 20 point buy, no items or gold of any kind, and just for Raith, I didn't go crazy on race or splat books.

Halfling Monk (Ki Mystic, Qinggong Monk) 20; AL LN
Small Humanoid (halfling)
Init +7, Senses Perception +27

DEFENSE
AC 51 (+2 size, +7 Dex, +2 Wis, +5 monk, +5 armor, +11 dodge, +4 insight, +5 natural), touch 41, flat-footed 33
hp 143 (20d8+40)
Fort +13, Ref +19, Will +14

OFFENSE
Speed 90 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +20/+15/+10 (2d8/19-20 x2) with Combat Expertise and fighting defensively, or
Melee unarmed strike +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8 (2d8/19-20 x2) with Flurry of Blows, Combat Expertise, and fighting defensively
Ranged n/a

STATISTICS
Str 8, Dex 24, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 9
Base Atk +15; CMB +17 (+19 disarm and trip); CMD 52 (54 vs. disarm and trip; 62 vs. bull rush)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Cautious Fighter, Celestial Obedience, Combat Expertise, Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Piranha Strike, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Traits Quain Martial Artist, Threatening Defender
Skills Acrobatics +30, Escape Artist +30, Perception +27, Sense Motive +25, Stealth +34
Features Abundant step (2 ki), barkskin (1 ki), blood crow strike (2 ki), cold ice strike (DC 22; 3 ki), divine defense, evasion, fast movement, fearless, fleet of foot, flurry of blows, greaves of gold, improved evasion, keen senses, ki mystic, ki pool (adamantine, cold iron, lawful, magic, silver) 14, living aurum, maneuver training, mystic insight, mystic persistence, mystic presience +4, mystic visions, obedience, perfect self, quivering palm (DC 22) 1/day, scorching ray (2 ki), small, stunning fist (blind or deafened, fatigued, sickened, staggered; DC 22) 20/day, unarmed strike, underfoot, wholeness of body (2 ki)
Combat Gear not a damn thing; Other Gear basic clothing and a rice hat for some style

The barkskin is from his archetype and can be maintained all day. The magic vestment is from a feat, and has a duration of 20 hours. Once again does not include ki dodge. Note his AC will drop by -1 if he faces another small sized creature.

Even without equipment of any kind, your fighter will still struggle to hit.

Raith, note that building a monk is not all about magic items. It's about system mastery, and knowing how to build a monk.

Lantern Lodge

Lotion wrote:

Those goalposts sure are moving around here.

In any case, that's a fine build Lormyr, thanks for showing me it.

Anytime bud. Hopefully more people will gain some enjoyment from them.


@Lormyr

shoudl the damage be 2d8-2? adn the sieze bonust o AC is not just +1?

Lantern Lodge

Nicos wrote:

@Lormyr

shoudl the damage be 2d8-2? adn the sieze bonust o AC is not just +1?

The figure is correct. -1 damage from poor strength, +1 trait damage from quain martial artist, so it's a wash.

The size bonus if correct if fighting a medium or larger creature because of his alternate race trait underfoot. I made a note that his AC would be reduced by -1 if fighting a small fighter after his stat block.

He is likely to end up killing a poor gearless fighter with swift cold ice strikes to the face anyhow, though.

In the spirit of an honorable fight, he would stand up there and flurry away with either aforementioned cold ice strikes or using ki dodge for more AC.

In reality, he'd zerg away and murder the crap out of the poor slow fighter with blood crow strike or scorching rays + cold ice strike each round until out of ki.

All in all, pretty scary for no gear don't you think?


Ok, I have to post a full geared fighter to deal with your original monk and someone to deal with last hafling monk, not bad althoug there is always a way to counter a build, when I find what counters yoru you will find what counters mine and the cicle begings again.

Lantern Lodge

I don't think there is a need to counter, per se. I have seen that you can build a very solid fighter.

All I aim to accomplish is to show people that, gear or no gear, one can also build a very solid monk. I built the stat blocks only so that the math could be seen and verified. Claiming such things without them as evidence wouldn't have gotten very far.

As soon as I can show a few folks like Raith that it's not just about gear, that feat selection, archetype selection, and stat distribution are all equally valid, I feel I'll have made my point well.

Thank you for acknowledging that they are viable options.


Nice build. Even though I agree with you, I kinda want to get in on this. What constitutes as gearless? No gear at all? No magic weapons? No mounts?

Lantern Lodge

Raith Shadar wrote:

This is too strange for a comparison. Too many variables. I don't allow that level of magic item accumulation in general in our campaigns. I'm fairly certain that a fighter specialist probably has a better knowledge than I do of every single strange magic item that might boost his abilities.

I would much prefer the test be based on class abilities, not strange magic items a player has picked up from scouring every single source out there. Fighter versus Monk should stick to basics. If the monk is only better or equal when he has certain magic items, he's not really equal.

As an example, check out this character Raith Shadar. He is a Hungry Ghost Monk with Crane Style. I will never have access to the magic items your character has. I'm not even sure if my DM would have allowed the Agile Enhancement considering he uses only CRB, APG, UC, and UM. He doesn't use companions or the like.

That is the monk the majority of us have to play with. We don't get to scour every book to pick any magic item we feel like. Nor do we get a ton of boons. If you want to show the monk is fine, use the same rules I have to follow in the majority of my campaigns.

None of the builds posted on this page have any boons whatsoever.

Also, please explain to me how choosing +5 armor, a +5 adamantine weapon, a belt of strength +6, and +5 strength tome for a fighter is any different than a monk using items that benefit his class and build, or any other character doing the same?

You have the naked monk above. Contend with that, and all of your magic item criticism should no longer be of relevance. It's purely feat and archetype selection vs. feat and archetype selection. That's as direct of a class comparison as one can achieve.

Lantern Lodge

Lotion wrote:
Nice build. Even though I agree with you, I kinda want to get in on this. What constitutes as gearless? No gear at all? No magic weapons? No mounts?

For the monk, I went with no items whatsoever.

For the fighter, appropriate plain old iron and steel non-masterwork arms and armor would be fine.

full plate, heavy steel shield, longsword for example.


I do have a build in mind, but it depends on how you would rule this:

If you are feinted, are you aware of the attack to use crane wing?

Lantern Lodge

You cannot use crane wing while flat-footed, and while feinting denies your opponent Dexterity, it does not cause him to become flat-footed (a separate but extremely similar condition).

Excellent line of thought, though.

Edit: the only non-caster build I have known to work well on the crazy AC crane monk is the gunslinger pistolero. When you use signature deed with up close and deadly, at level 20 even if you flat out miss your target it still suffers 1/2 of 5d6 damage. 12 attacks = 25d6 of damage a round even if all attacks miss. Hard to contend with, and I cannot help but wonder how on earth that made it past play testing.


Fair enough. I have GMs rule that it triggers the "unaware" part of the feat, but I'm fine with either interpretation.

I'll probably go with some sort of stealthy goblin fighter that tries to one shot its opponents with devastating blow. I'll stat him up once I get home.

Now I just need to look for ways to gain concealment...

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