about number 1, you know that gets an opposed sense motive check right? the balor has 30 in sense motive. The monk is unlikely to have amazing bluff, although that tactic is amazing for a ninja.You guys arguing that a monk can't do anything to support the party do know there are builds to support the party right?
Two off the top of my head:
1) Automatically shut down an intelligent foe a round. If properly built, same, it is effectively no save. That means said Balor won't be able to act at all during the three rounds the monk takes to kill it.2) Automatically allow party to take 20 on initiative. You just won "rocket tag" for your party.
The first one might not be done as often because of player etiquette, but its still there.
Which is why I said properly built (i.e. dump a whole lot (some would say unreasonable amount) of resources into it). 4 feats and a trait (as a human, 3 feats if gnome; this includes the koan) gives you a base of +35 if you put 20 ranks into it. The rest you'll fill with items. There's also an added benefit of uses in social encounters.
There's a benefit for monks against Ninjas for this feat. Tongue of the Sun and Moon lets the monk talk to any creature with an int score. So creatures like the Tarrasque is automatically shut down.
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1) Wizard does not get double WBL from crafting feats. Any GM worth his salt doesn't allow that. The one sorcerer I posted in this thread didn't pull BS like that. I know that certain Paizo designers say that you should double WBL with craft feats, but those same designers say crafting is broken.
Why don't they? They took the feat, they used a resource to do this. Do crafters who make their own weapons and alchemical items get punished in the same way for investing in their skills?
It's really rude to assume that a GM isn't doing things right to allow people to benefit from their feats, considering the character picked them for a reason. Do you also decide some of the time Power Attack doesn't work because no GM worth their salt would let a melee character do "that much damage?"
The game assumes item crafters are higher on their WBL than non crafters, so assuming otherwise isn't really relevant.
1) Wizard does not get double WBL from crafting feats. Any GM worth his salt doesn't allow that. The one sorcerer I posted in this thread didn't pull BS like that. I know that certain Paizo designers say that you should double WBL with craft feats, but those same designers say crafting is broken.Why don't they? They took the feat, they used a resource to do this. Do crafters who make their own weapons and alchemical items get punished in the same way for investing in their skills?
It's really rude to assume that a GM isn't doing things right to allow people to benefit from their feats, considering the character picked them for a reason. Do you also decide some of the time Power Attack doesn't work because no GM worth their salt would let a melee character do "that much damage?"
The game assumes item crafters are higher on their WBL than non crafters, so assuming otherwise isn't really relevant.
Item crafting allows you to get items you want.
Item crafters tend to make gear for their party too.
Your WBL doesn't go up in any sane game. Now this is not RAW, but by RAW the designers themselves have called item crafting unbalanced.
Furthermore, every build on this thread would have taken Item crafting feats to double their WBL, but they didn't because everyone knows in practice that crafting feats do not double one's WBL. Time is a big factor. So is the GM just handing out less loot.
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Item crafting allows you to get items you want.
Item crafters tend to make gear for their party too.
Your WBL doesn't go up in any sane game. Now this is not RAW, but by RAW the designers themselves have called item crafting unbalanced.
Furthermore, every build on this thread would have taken Item crafting feats to double their WBL, but they didn't because everyone knows in practice that crafting feats do not double one's WBL. Time is a big factor. So is the GM just handing out less loot.
There you go again, calling people insane if they're not playing your way, when the game itself assumes an item crafter is supposed to be above WBL. No one is saying time isn't a factor, and not every game is played at a breakneck pace. Saying you won't have time to craft isn't assured, but the actual gold value for taking the feat means you're selling it for gold.
And of course they make gear for their party too, so you can penalize the Fighter for picking up a +2 Strength belt because he didn't pay the opportunity cost of taking the feat, the mage did. That's among the benefits of taking the feat.
And if every build on this thread took the feats, it'd even out to how much it helped, and still not show the difference between the fighter and the monk, which is what you were asserting at the beginning of this thread. If either one needs more items to accomplish their job, then they weren't very good at it in the first place. Besides, unless they took Master Craftsman or qualified with a racial SLA (which again, speaks to the race rather than the class), the Fighter couldn't take it. The monk does have some SLAs though (at least Dim Door in core) which actually does give it another leg up on the Fighter.
There you go again, calling people insane if they're not playing your way, when the game itself assumes an item crafter is supposed to be above WBL. No one is saying time isn't a factor, and not every game is played at a breakneck pace. Saying you won't have time to craft isn't assured, but the actual gold value for taking the feat means you're selling it for gold.
And of course they make gear for their party too, so you can penalize the Fighter for picking up a +2 Strength belt because he didn't pay the opportunity cost of taking the feat, the mage did. That's among the benefits of taking the feat.
And if every build on this thread took the feats, it'd even out to how much it helped, and still not show the difference between the fighter and the monk, which is what you were asserting at the beginning of this thread. If either one needs more items to accomplish their job, then they weren't very good at it in the first place. Besides, unless they took Master Craftsman or qualified with a racial SLA (which again, speaks to the race rather than the class), the Fighter couldn't take it. The monk does have some SLAs though (at least Dim Door in core) which actually does give it another leg up on the Fighter.
Dude whatever. You know where I stand. I don't want to see people posting Monk and Fighter builds with crafting feats to boost their WBL.
This doesn't really work in actual games and brings little to the conversation.
ASIDE: Doing this is WAY in the monks favor. A non-core monk just pumps spellcraft and take craft wondrous item and he doubles his WBL for everything but rings. A fighter pays 3 feat (Master craftsman, craft wondrous item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor.) Regardless it's dumb. I refuse to compare builds and mechanics with anyone who feels they should be able to double their WBL with feats.
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Fine then. Cite the rules outlining proper guidelines to reducing monster HD and determining how that effects their special abilities.
Certain creatures (notably dragons) get different special abilities based on HD. Most creatures do not. There is no rule to quote because dropping HD does not affect special abilities (well, except for their DCs).
At this point, though, I'm curious why it is so important to you that the Wish factory not work. Why are you so invested in the rules not having problems like that? Of what value is it to your argument that this not be permitted by RAW? What did you do in the days of Pun-Pun and the Omniscifier?
The thing is, the Pathfinder rules are pretty heavily flawed because 3.5 was even more heavily flawed and there was a realistic limit as to what they could fix. This is just a fact--there are loopholes and problems that need a human being to pass judgment on to be playable. That is why we have a human GM and not a computer program.
Truthfully, the only reason any of this is an issue is because of PFS--without that, individual GMs would just fix the issues quietly to themselves as they always have. However, any organized play environment (PFS, the Camarilla, D&D's Living Campaigns) has to depower GMs to keep the experience uniform, and that is actually the real problem.
Other game forums have discussions about "how would you rule this?" or "I don't like this aspect, how can I houserule it?" Only global scale games have forums where people actually ask what the rule itself is. It's just not an issue in other games otherwise. No where is this more prevalent than in the World of Darkness, where the actual table top game see's lots of discussion about house rules and "what ifs" and various flavor elements, while the global LARP discussions are heavily about builds and rules abuses.
People don't lament the caster-martial disparity because they have problems around the table with their close friends, they're upset because GMs are depowered in PFS (and because of the focus on PFS, new GMs are more and more taught to be depowered in home games, too) and literally cannot reign in the more egregious errors like this Wish Factory. The only thing that can stop a player from creating said factory is GM Fiat, but GM Fiat requires a strong, empowered GM.
In other words, in your home game, I am willing to buy that Monks are better than Fighters and that melee in general is relevant for 20 levels. But you have to accept that you are playing in an environment tailored to stamping out all the terrible and stupid things that ruin Monks, Fighters, melee in general, etc. and give spell casters too much power. If you actually played the game as written, you'd probably be very disappointed by how different a game it really is from your experience. As I said, I faced that exact issue and it was an eye-opener to say the least.
Fine then. Cite the rules outlining proper guidelines to reducing monster HD and determining how that effects their special abilities.Certain creatures (notably dragons) get different special abilities based on HD. Most creatures do not. There is no rule to quote because dropping HD does not affect special abilities (well, except for their DCs).
Source?
Because most creatures do not have tables for themselves at different HD last time I checked, meaning you can't make that claim.
about number 1, you know that gets an opposed sense motive check right? the balor has 30 in sense motive. The monk is unlikely to have amazing bluff, although that tactic is amazing for a ninja.You guys arguing that a monk can't do anything to support the party do know there are builds to support the party right?
Two off the top of my head:
1) Automatically shut down an intelligent foe a round. If properly built, same, it is effectively no save. That means said Balor won't be able to act at all during the three rounds the monk takes to kill it.2) Automatically allow party to take 20 on initiative. You just won "rocket tag" for your party.
The first one might not be done as often because of player etiquette, but its still there.
Which is why I said properly built (i.e. dump a whole lot (some would say unreasonable amount) of resources into it). 4 feats and a trait (as a human, 3 feats if gnome; this includes the koan) gives you a base of +35 if you put 20 ranks into it. The rest you'll fill with items. There's also an added benefit of uses in social encounters.
There's a benefit for monks against Ninjas for this feat. Tongue of the Sun and Moon lets the monk talk to any creature with an int score. So creatures like the Tarrasque is automatically shut down.
Ah I see, I thought you were one one of those who claimed that RAW, because a sense motive check isn't explicitly stated in the feat, that there is in fact no save. This makes more sense. I would like to see a build though. If I combine that tactic with a sensei, I will basically recreate a very houseruled monk I had back in 3.5, which I would love another go at.
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Because most creatures do not have tables for themselves at different HD last time I checked, meaning you can't make that claim.
The lack of tables like that is exactly the source. There are no tables for special abilities at various HD, whereas there are always tables for Hit Points, Saves, Attacks, DCs, etc., so therefore, unless there is a table (specific beats general), there is no tie between HD and special abilities.
Because most creatures do not have tables for themselves at different HD last time I checked, meaning you can't make that claim.The lack of tables like that is exactly the source. There are no tables for special abilities at various HD, whereas there are always tables for Hit Points, Saves, Attacks, DCs, etc., so therefore, unless there is a table (specific beats general), there is no tie between HD and special abilities.
No that doesn't work.
The spell itself insinuates that special abilities are tied to HD. You need examples of reduced HD monsters to show that HD is not related to their abilities.
A creature without full racial HD does not exist outside of simulacrum.
Creatures that do (like dragons) show that SLA's can be tied to HD.
If you go back to 3.5 there were monster classes with HD and special ability progression.
Granted it is hard to cite a rule stating how things are not related. But there is a precedent for any creatures that can progress HD to gain special abilities from HD. It is easy to extrapolate the removing HD removes special abilities. This is why you need an example of a half-HD genie having wish FOR a half-HD genie to have wish.
Not really dude. Unless the rules specifically state that removing HD will remove special abilities, then they don't. You can do differently and claim its logical of course, but its still a house rule. As mpl has pointed out, unless you find some kind of rule quotation or table specifically referencing they do, then a 1 HD genie will still have wish and that will be RAW and possibly RAI
Then why does the spell state special abilities can change based on HD?
Look if you want to ignore parts of the spell that is up to you, but don't be surprised when wizards start making wish factories because you ignored restrictions in the spell.
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Then why does the spell state special abilities can change based on HD?
Because:
1) The DCs of special abilities do change based on HD
2) Dragons exist
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Ah I see, I thought you were one one of those who claimed that RAW, because a sense motive check isn't explicitly stated in the feat, that there is in fact no save. This makes more sense. I would like to see a build though. If I combine that tactic with a sensei, I will basically recreate a very houseruled monk I had back in 3.5, which I would love another go at.
The build would be pretty simple. If you want Sensei, here's the template in how I think I would build such a character:
Human Drunken Master/Sensei
Assuming 10 cha.
Trait: Any of the numerous ones that makes bluff a class skill. This might give a +4 depending on the DM.
Level 1: Racial Heritage (Gnome), Skill Focus: Bluff
Level 3: Power Attack (required if you're melee)
Level 5: Bewildering Koan
Level 7: Deceitful
At level 7 you would have around +19 (or +16) to bluff without items, depending on GM ruling. So if you're fighting a Rakasha (CR10), you'll have a little more than 50% chance of making it lose its turn every round. Becomes worse for it if you add in things like circlet of persuasion.
At level 10 you would have around +27 (or +24) to bluff without items, depending on gm ruling. You'll pretty much shut down a banshee (CR13), while it is a tossup against the Ice Devil (CR13).
I hate item digging, so lets just go with circlet of persuasion, a Mulberry Pentacle Ioun Stone, and a masterwork bluffing tool (I know I know) for an extra +10 to bluff. This would really start pushing monk into having a powerful "save or lose" ability.
The reason why I went with drunken master is because this allows the monk to spend Ki repeatedly without ever running out of Ki.
You got your monk bonus feats and your QingGong swap ins to further customize your monk.
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Then why does the spell state special abilities can change based on HD?
Because of Dragons, and possibly things with the Half Fiend/Celestial template, really the only examples of HD dependant abilities I can find, although if you can find more I'd love to see them, probably also from templates. Casting wishes is an innate part of the whole Djinni/Efreet package, regardless of HD.
Then why does the spell state special abilities can change based on HD?Because:
1) The DCs of special abilities do change based on HD
2) Dragons exist
*shakes head
I think I am beginning to understand how caster outclass your martials in high levels.
You guys think RAW means ignore parts of the spell.
"Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Perception check (opposed by the caster's Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check."
See I read:
Hit points change
Feats change
Skill ranks change
Special abilities change
I did not see only special ability DCs change or that that change only applies to Dragons.
I read that special abilities can be removed. As in entire abilities, not just reduced DCs.
Casting wishes is an innate part of the whole Djinni/Efreet package, regardless of HD.
Really? Because only Noble DJINNI can cast wish. Normal lower HD Djinni cannot.
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Casting wishes is an innate part of the whole Djinni/Efreet package, regardless of HD.Really? Because only Noble DJINNI can cast wish. Normal lower HD Djinni cannot.
I thought that was implied, that's my fault. But the Noble Djinni isn't just a higher HD version, it's a special version. And the Efreet is still pretty synced into its wish granting abilities.
To smack the snow cone wish factory discussion on the head, you do realize that you can simalcrum any creature in the infinite universe within the HD limits - 26 HD at 13th level (earliest possible wizard cast). You don't even have to have met them - you could read about them in a book somewhere.
The caster simulacrums a advanced efreet of 20 HD... post simalcrum, he gets a 10 HD efreet - a normal efreet - who can cast 3x Wish per day.
Simalcrum the spell is indeed broken... Next discussion please...
Monster has to exist to copy it. There is no such thing as an original copy.
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Then why does the spell state special abilities can change based on HD?
Look if you want to ignore parts of the spell that is up to you, but don't be surprised when wizards start making wish factories because you ignored restrictions in the spell.
No one is ignoring parts of the spell, bud. You just have a different understanding of those words than literally everyone else you are speaking too about this topic in this thread. I do not understand why you have that different view, nor what understanding I can impart upon you through words to correct your misunderstanding at this point. So I am just going to try to walk through this with you piece by piece and see what comes.
You asked why the spell states: "it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)".
It states that because most, but not all, of those things listed are directly based off of levels or hit dice. When making a simulacrum of a PC class, half level lets you know exactly what the simulacrum will or will not have. And I would imagine that using this spell on yourself is the classic use the game designers likely saw as being common place.
Things absolutely based upon levels and hit dice, always and forever:
base attack bonus
hit points
base saving throws
skill points
class features
the DC for most class feature, extraordinary, and supernatural special attacks
caster level for spells from class levels and monsters that "cast as a xth level y"
Things that are sometimes based upon levels and hit dice:
caster level for spell-like abilities (almost always only for PC races like aasimar, gnome, and tiefling)
Things that are never based upon level and hit dice:
possession of racial abilities that are not S-LA (ogre magi don't need to be xth level to fly, dwarves don't need to wait until level y for darkvision, ect.)
what spell-like abilities monsters have (I believe the game designers simply gave them what they felt appropriate0
caster level for those spell-like abilities outside of PC races (again, no formula exists, they appear to have been simply given what made sense for their CR)
The reason why efreeti, or other monster creatures, retain their spell-like abilities is because while these things might be based upon their hit dice or CR from a game designer point of view, there is no formula or game mechanic in pathfinder that describes how a monster's spell-like abilities scale with it's hit dice. Removing the wish s-la ability from an efreeti simulacrum would be the same as removing darkvision from the dwarf because he lost too many hit dice to retain it.
I understand you want a source that says that. Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, no such source exists. What does exist though is many charts, graphs, and lines of text that state precisely what is acquired through gaining hit dice. It stands to reason then that things not included on that list are not directly affected by levels or hit dice.
Let me offer you a reverse engineering of your logic as I see it.
Player 1: Sweet, I gained low-light vision this level!
GM: Why did you gain low-light vision this level?
Player 1: Because I made it to 6th level!
GM: Where does it say characters gain that at 6th level?
Player 1: Show me where it says that they don't and I will mark it off.
Another example:
GM: You are hit by the enemy's enervation spell. You gain *rolls dice* ouch, 4 negative levels.
Player 1: Damn, my 15th level monk doesn't like that. Ok, I run up on that jerk and standard action him with a quivering palm.
GM: What a second, you can't do that now. You have 4 negative levels.
Player 1: *flipping through book* Wait a second, it doesn't say you lose class features, just level dependent variables like DC and ow long joe's vanishing trick lasts.
GM: If you can show me specifically where it says you do not lose class features, you can retain them.
Player 1: Well, I can't show you where it says poisonous exploding frogs do not rain from the sky every time a PC is energy drained either, so does that mean we need umbrellas?
Wizards aren't that hard to keep in check as long as...
That was a fairly decent summary. Well done, I like it!
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I think I have a permanent solution to this argument.
Find someone(a level-headed DM) that isn't biased to either class. Have them create their own personal campaign that doesn't favor either class(nothing extreme or ridiculous). There should be a campaign for a group fight, and one for a 1v1 fight. Perhaps a level 5 campaign, a level 10, and a level 15. One for the fighter, then one for the monk. By campaign I may mean combat scenario.
They are now your DM.
The DM will give you options.
The DM should look over your stuff, and make sure you're not cheesing or forging.
Let the slaughter begin.
All of this should be done using www.rolld20.net. Recorded as well. Then put onto Youtube for eternity. We can all be adults here, so no bantering, "reaching" for options, or arguing aside from general questions and cooperation for the DM. Let's play this for the sake of numbers and endless inquiries of this topic instead of argument.
Let the results be seen.
Spectators should be invited too, but not too many as we don't want too much chatter.
This should be announced on here, or a new thread that's easy for the eye to pick up.
Do it -_-
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