No Coriat is right, I did not think DA blocked empty body, but I was wrong. If abundant step works EXACTLY like DD then so would empty body to etherealness.
The 10ft down bit putts you in the ground and makes you invisible to creatures with true seeing. You can go anywhere you want then to get away.
I would say the monks land speed counts as normal speed, because land speed is the normal speed. Only vertically would the monk move at half, horizontally in the monk moves at full base land speed regardless of elevation.
So he damages you first. Since you're not dropping him in one round and you're taking damage the whole time for hitting him this isn't a trivial obstacle. If you ever drop below 151 the fight is over.
Power word stun Does not effect creatures with more than 151 hit points.
Have you worked out the relative DPRs? The balor will be dead LONG before that happens. And stunning does not end the fight, it just gives the other guy some free attacks.
Unless you pre-buff because you are in the kind of place where you might run into a greater demon.Prebuff with a 1 minute duration buff? Really?
And most combats in D&D are the monsters jumping you, not the other way around.
Or potion of magic circle against evil...cheap enough to carry a couple at this level, duration nearly an hour, and stops any pesky summoned creatures irritating the fighter...
They have 20ft. reach with a touch attack, so not necessarily.
If he's close enough to AoO, he's close enough to full attack on a 5' step, and he's pretty much dead meat at that point (see above).
You should read the fighter I posted up: reach weapon + Lunge = total 15' reach, 280 DPR. Dead balor.
Armor Training has no effect on the Fly spell, which is what your boots use.
Nope, 60 ft
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
Seems pretty clear that he moves at "normal" speed, whatever that normal speed is, as if he were not wearing heavy armour. After all, he's only lightly encumbered and it's not like flying even needs you to move your legs like running does.
But the monk doesn't need a 1 minute buff to protect his mind, so teleporting away does nothing to him actually.
The teleport works against everyone, as has already been pointed out. The situation is artificial.
Well I suppose if you assume the fighter does nothing but stand around waiting for the balor to show up again, that might be relevant. But if he moves, and like, tries to do what he came to do (there not being a balor to stop him any more)...
As I pointed out above, Armor Training does nothing for the fighter's flight speed by RAW. The monk meanwhile not only has full speed, he can fly and even teleport without the boots.
As for speed, it's a flying creature and both monk and fighter are using their winged boots, the monk has no advantage.
No, it's not by RAW at all, the RAW makes clear that the fighter at level 7 becomes an exception to the movement restrictions of wearing heavy armour - it makes no specific mention of which restrictions, which means all of them. You are of course free to house-rule otherwise in your own games, but I'm going by the RAW.
Even if the monk is slightly more maneuverable by dint of not wearing armour it doesn't make much difference as the balor has to stay within 75' anyway to use his dominate power, and he can fly faster than either monk or fighter if he wants to run away. If he wants to play tag-and-run, the fighter's extra reach means it makes no practical difference.
Yeah that's why I said a monk can 'technically' fly. Not particularly useful outside of GTFOing.
Although DD plus Empty body is the best non-caster GTFO in the game.
Yes, I've never disputed that the monk can run away better than anyone else short of a teleport spell. What do you think the rest of the party would like, a guy that can run away if there's a TPK, or one that has better odds of preventing a TPK in the first place?
... so what we're doing wrong is that we're presuming the Monks come more from the eastern philosophy of martial arts, but what you're saying Dabbler, is that they're more European than most people think?!
Dang it! You just took something away from all those "Anti-Eastern Theme" people! What will they complain about now?!
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If we are really going to get in deep to balor vs. core fighter or monk, we need to go at it from a ruthless position from the balor.
At +11 initiative, that is very competitive to what either the monk or fighter is likely to acquire.
Round 1: move action = fly 90 ft. up; standard action = targeted dispel magic on whatever allows either to fly; swift action = quickened telekinesis to hurl 15 rocks/daggers/whatever is around at either to slowly whittle down hit points (+28 on said attack rolls; not great, but not terrible)
Priority moving forward: repeat dispel on fly granting item as necessary to keep it completely locked down.
Round 2: move action = fly to 180 ft.; standard action = summon 2nd balor; swift action = telekinesis again
Moving forward: both balors spam greater dispel to strip fly, cloak of resistance, and weapon(s) as necessary. They chuck firestorms and quickened telekinesis to whittle down hp. When hp comes within power word stun range, they chain stun you while wrecking you with full attacks.
Such tactic would prove extremely troublesome for either character.
The end? I hope. :p
Round 2: move action = fly to 180 ft.; standard action = summon 2nd balor; swift action = telekinesis again
Lormyr!
The Balor can't summon anything higher than CR 19
In this situation, I think the fighter would die and the monk would be forced to run away.
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Round 2: move action = fly to 180 ft.; standard action = summon 2nd balor; swift action = telekinesis againLormyr!
The Balor can't summon anything higher than CR 19
In this situation, I think the fighter would die and the monk would be forced to run away.
Whoops, you are totally right! I completely overlooked the CR 19 limit.
In that case replace with flying nalfeshnee, who replaces firestorm and telekinesis spam with call lightning and unholy nimbus spam to whittle hp. The most vital part of targeting greater dispel magic it is still capable of.
The outcome is likely to be similiar.
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Regarding the summon - a Vrolikai (CR 19) can make the Fighter eat 8 negative levels in one round with no save. The monk at least has the protection of his SR. I didn't count it because this was a core challenge, but we already acknowledged that outside core the Monk pulls way ahead.
Have you worked out the relative DPRs? The balor will be dead LONG before that happens. And stunning does not end the fight, it just gives the other guy some free attacks.
Stunned characters drop everything held (no weapon) and in the case of your build will lose at least 7 AC/9 CMD. Combined with the whip he gets free chances to grapple you from 20' away while you take no actions. On top of all that, your touch AC - being lower than that of the monk - will put you at greater risk of the Vorpal strike.
Or potion of magic circle against evil...cheap enough to carry a couple at this level, duration nearly an hour, and stops any pesky summoned creatures irritating the fighter...
Except with Magic Circle, you only get one chance to suppress a dominate per potion. So he just needs to cast it twice.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.Seems pretty clear that he moves at "normal" speed, whatever that normal speed is, as if he were not wearing heavy armour.
Right, but flight speed is not "normal speed" for a Fighter. Fly says:
"The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, OR if it carries a medium or heavy load)."
There is nothing in there about Armor Training applying to the spell effect. The spell simply says "are you wearing medium/heavy armor? If yes, speed reduction." The load doesn't matter if the armor itself meets the condition.
Even if the monk is slightly more maneuverable by dint of not wearing armour it doesn't make much difference as the balor has to stay within 75' anyway to use his dominate power, and he can fly faster than either monk or fighter if he wants to run away. If he wants to play tag-and-run, the fighter's extra reach means it makes no practical difference.
75 + 90 is beyond even a 4x move range for the Fighter, and we're assuming a battlefield with no cover or other obstacles even. And lacking pounce, his DPR drops considerably.
Such tactic would prove extremely troublesome for either character.
Hence why I posted that Archer Fighter that did slightly less DPR than the two-handed fighter, but remained more relevant, especially in situations like this. I don't think the Balor would have any hope of killing such a fighter. It'd basically come down to a choice:
1) Run away (which he can do with little issue, thanks to teleport at well), but I'd consider that a Fighter win2) Gamble that he could land a Dominate before the Fighter could kill him
Not good odds.
Such tactic would prove extremely troublesome for either character.Hence why I posted that Archer Fighter that did slightly less DPR than the two-handed fighter, but remained more relevant, especially in situations like this. I don't think the Balor would have any hope of killing such a fighter. It'd basically come down to a choice:
1) Run away (which he can do with little issue, thanks to teleport at well), but I'd consider that a Fighter win
2) Gamble that he could land a Dominate before the Fighter could kill himNot good odds.
3) ports into melee range and uses his reach + combat reflexes to devour the archer.
3) ports into melee range and uses his reach + combat reflexes to devour the archer.
Would not be an issue. The Balor, even with extra AoOs, can't beat the fighter before the Fighter beats him. The DPR is too lopsided.
And yeah, just one book out of Core only and the Fighter doesn't provoke anymore, anyway.
Stunned characters drop everything held (no weapon) and in the case of your build will lose at least 7 AC/9 CMD. Combined with the whip he gets free chances to grapple you from 20' away while you take no actions. On top of all that, your touch AC - being lower than that of the monk - will put you at greater risk of the Vorpal strike.
Why the hell is anyone being stunned by stunning fist?
At level 20, a successful stunning fist paralyses the target for 1d6+1 rounds.
Combat over.
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Such tactic would prove extremely troublesome for either character.Hence why I posted that Archer Fighter that did slightly less DPR than the two-handed fighter, but remained more relevant, especially in situations like this. I don't think the Balor would have any hope of killing such a fighter. It'd basically come down to a choice:
1) Run away (which he can do with little issue, thanks to teleport at well), but I'd consider that a Fighter win
2) Gamble that he could land a Dominate before the Fighter could kill himNot good odds.
An archer definitely fairs better in this particular instance.
@Lormyr: Rod of Absorption ruins that tactic. Targeted Dispel Magic is non-issue, really. Telekinesis is only hitting a level 20 Fighter or Monk on a natural 20.
Slows down the tactic. He can still hang out of reach and spam you until the rod is done.
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Stunned characters drop everything held (no weapon) and in the case of your build will lose at least 7 AC/9 CMD. Combined with the whip he gets free chances to grapple you from 20' away while you take no actions. On top of all that, your touch AC - being lower than that of the monk - will put you at greater risk of the Vorpal strike.Why the hell is anyone being stunned by stunning fist?
At level 20, a successful stunning fist paralyses the target for 1d6+1 rounds.
Combat over.
Talking about the Balor's at-will PW:Stun there (which the monk can resist but the fighter can't), not stunning fist.
... so what we're doing wrong is that we're presuming the Monks come more from the eastern philosophy of martial arts, but what you're saying Dabbler, is that they're more European than most people think?!
Dang it! You just took something away from all those "Anti-Eastern Theme" people! What will they complain about now?!
LOL, no worries. How people interpret monks is up to them, I don't think Eastern or Western themes need to come into it. How the monk is flavoured is however people make it flavoured, all they need to be are ascetic warrior-priests specialising in using their bodies as weapons rather than fighting like conventional soldiers.
Guys let the CORE monk/fighter vs Balor thing go. Neither of them win vs the Balor(if its played correctly). IMO the fighter would bring more to the group dynamic of that situation since its easier for the group to cover his weakness, but again that's my opinion. now outside of core both move forward a lot. But the issue still remains(to me at least) that using equipment to shore up character weakness shows a lack of useful character abilities in both classes.
It's a lot easier to cover the fighter's weaknesses on the occasions that they show than it is to shore up the monk's whose show all the time, on the whole. Lormyr came up with a lot of buffs that can stack to make the monk fairly devastating if he hits, but they aren't usually spells your standard 4-man party would necessarily have available.
I agree, it's what you can offer the party that matters. Party context is important in this respect, because the rest of the party can hit the balor (for example) with dimensional anchor so that it cannot escape, they can cover the fighter's mental weakness very easily with protection from evil, and ensure he can always catch it.
Honestly, mind blank becomes common fare for my groups at that level. It lasts 24 hours so you can prepare it, cast, and get 2 or more adventuring days worth of use out of it, or make it into an item (since it has a duration of 24 hours or more it gets a very big discount on its price if the bard/cleric/paladin/ranger/sorcerer/wizard wants to craft one for peoples).
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I've actually got what I wanted from this thread.
Monks are playable and fill a role.
Fighters also have a niche.
Different parties would benefit more from one or the other.
I've actually got what I wanted from this thread.
Monks are playable and fill a role.
In all seriousness, what is that role?
Different parties would benefit more from one or the other.
Again, seriously, what party benefits more from a Monk than from any other class?
Different parties would benefit more from one or the other.Again, seriously, what party benefits more from a Monk than from any other class?
Decent damage + defenses and skills.
Like a tankier TWF ranger.
but we didn't prove they had skills at all O.o The vast majority of people showed the numbers on skills at monks and said they were absolutely meh at best.
and awww I never got to post any of my builds :(
I don't know what monks you are playing...
Perception, Stealth, Acrobatics, Climb, Sense Motive
That's a good kit.
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I've actually got what I wanted from this thread.
Monks are playable and fill a role.
Fighters also have a niche.
Different parties would benefit more from one or the other.
How dare you sir!
That is a reasonable response and people have preconceived notions that they are either unable or unwilling to back up with evidence that disagree with you, and therefore you are insulting them to the core.
Because disagreeing with them is heinously cruel.
While them disagreeing with you is just their genius being showcased and your ignorance showing.
I think that is how it works, right?
@Thomas Long 175
>_<
I have a feeling you can make equal comments about any skill. So it really doesn't matter to you how skilled the monk is.
As someone who has played a monk, I can tell you that these skills have routed armies, broken sieges, and crippled monsters.
Personally, I would say the monk is distinctly average at skills. He's got a middle-of-the-road 4+Int skills, supplemented by a list of decent but not amazing skills. It doesn't help that while the monk has several good skills, they don't have a skill list that puts them in a very solid role. They have a couple scout skills, but are missing some important ones like disable device and knowledges. They have a solid selection of face skills, but monks rarely have a positive charisma modifier.
The monk doesn't get much in the way of class bonuses to skills, or anything that really encourages him to focus on skills as a role. MAD makes it hard to invest in intelligence, and means a lot monks will want to put the favored class bonus into HP instead of skills.
Overall, I just can't see the monk as a skill class. They're better off than the fighter when it comes to skills, but so is every other class in the game. However, compared to actual skill classes like the rogue, bard, inquisitor, and ranger they're left far in the dust.
Here is my take on a high level monk . . . my alter ego/namesake, Arminas. He isn't optimized. He doesn't have all of the so-called "must have" feats and items. But he was always fun to play, and my group didn't really build for 100% maximum DPR and combat effectiveness anyway.
So without further ado, here he is. And I hope that I got the math right . . . LOL. Any questions, just ask.
Arminas tar Valantil
XP 3,742,188
Male Human Monk 20
LN(E) Medium humanoid (human)
Init +11; Senses Darkvision 60 ft., Perception +30
DEFENSE
AC 43, touch 35, flat-footed 35 (+8 armor, +5 deflection, +7 Dex, +7 Wis, +5 Monk, +1 Dodge)
hp 234 (20d8+140)
Fort +24, Ref+24, Will +24 (+12 base, +5 resistance, +7 Con/Dex/Wis)
Defensive Abilities Improved Evasion, SR 30; Immune disease, poison; DR 10/chaotic
OFFENSE
Speed 90 ft.
Melee flurry of blows +31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16 (2d10+12/19-20) or unarmed strike +28 (2d10+12/19-20) or masterwork quarterstaff +23 (1d6+7/20)
Ranged flurry of blows masterwork shuriken +26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11 (1d2+7/20) or masterwork shuriken +23 (1d2+7/20), 10 ft. range increment
Special Attacks flurry of blows, stunning fist (21/day, DC 27), quivering palm (DC 27)
STATISTICS
Str 24, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 14
Base Atk +15, CMB +27 (+35 on Disarm, Sunder, and Trip; +29 on Grapple); CMD 57 (65 vs Disarm, Sunder, and Trip; 59 vs Grapple)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus (Unarmed Strike), Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike), Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa’s Wrath, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Skills Acrobatics +30 (+74 when jumping), Climb +20, Craft (Wood-working) +29, Intimidate +25, Perception +30, Perform (Dance) +25, Sense Motive +30, Stealth +30, Swim +20, Knowledge (History) +29*, Knowledge (Religion) +29*, Ride +30*
*Skills from Headband of Mental Prowess
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven (and his native Suel dialect which isn’t spoken in Golarion)
SQ abundant step (1 ki), diamond body, diamond soul (SR 30), empty body (2 ki), fast movement, high jump, ki pool (17 points), maneuver training, perfect self, purity of body, quivering palm (DC 27), slow fall any distance, still mind, timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon, wholeness of body (heal 20 hp for 1 ki)
Gear Amulet of Mighty Fists +5, Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Bracers of Armor +8, Campfire Bead, Cloak of Resistance +5, Decanter of Endless Water, Gloves of Reconnaissance, Goggles of Night, Handy Haversack, Headband of Mental Prowess (Int/Wis) +6 (Know/His, Know/Relig, Ride), Hood (Helm) of Underwater Action, masterwork Quarterstaff, Monk’s Robes, Ring of Ki Mastery, Ring of Protection +5, Rope of Climbing*, Sustaining Spoon*, Traveler’s Any-Tool*, Unfettered Shirt, Winged Boots, 8 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds*, 4 Potions of Neutralize Poison*, Potions of Remove Blindness/Deafness*, 4 Potions of Remove Curse*, 4 Potions of Remove Disease*, 4 Potions of Water Breathing*, 12 Potions of Cure Moderate Wounds*, 4 Potions of Lesser Restoration*, 4 Potions of Remove Paralysis*, 16 Potions of Cure Light Wounds*, 4 Potions of Endure Elements*, 4 Potions of Pass without Trace*, 4 Potions of Remove Fear*, 2 Bedrolls*, 2 Blankets*, 2 Hammocks*, 4 blocks of Soap*, Fishing Tackle*, Fishing Net*, Compass*, Small Steel Mirror*, 100 ft. Silk Rope*, 50 ft. Sting/Twine*, Signal Whistle*, Signet Ring*, 10 Candles*, Everburning Torch*, 10 days of Trail Rations*, 4 Waterskins*, Adventurer’s Chronicle (blank)*, 10 sticks of Chalk*, 10 sticks of Charcoal*, 5 vials of Ink*, 2 Inkpens*, Map/Scroll Case*, Block of Sealing Wax*, 4 vials of Holy Water*, 50 masterwork shuriken, Manual of Bodily Health +2 (used), Manual of Gainful Exercise +4 (used), Manual of Quickness of Action +2 (used), Tome of Clear Thought +1 (used), Tome of Understanding +1 (used)
*Items marked with an asterisk are stored in the Handy Haversack
Money 6,300 gp on-hand in a mixture of gems, gold coins, and silver coins
DESCRIPTION
Born in another reality, the powerful Grand Master Arminas tar Valantil has recently arrived on Golarion, pursuing his Quest to find his way home to the World of Greyhawk. A descendant of the Suel population of that realm, Arminas is a fair-skinned individual with eyes and hair of a dark brown coloration. He stands tall at six feet and his lean frame is well-toned, his musculature and fitness evident to the naked eye. Although he appears to be in his mid-30’s, he is much older and experienced (thanks to the Timeless Body special ability). His real age is sixty (or thereabouts, given the many different worlds with differing year lengths he has inhabited). He struggles to find his way home, but several of the Gods of Greyhawk work behind the scenes to ensure that he never discovers the true path. So far, at least, their plan has worked.
Although he carries powerful magical items among his equipment, in appearance, Arminas appears as little more than a traveling monk. His black hooded robes are worn (though of the highest quality), as are his boots and gloves. His only (visible) possessions are an old knap-sack suspended from his shoulder and neck via a leather strap, a finely crafted broad leather belt about his waist with a knife (not a dagger, just a knife) in a belt sheath, and a quarterstaff hewn from a dark polished wood and capped with iron ferrules on both ends.
Not one to suffer fools lightly, Arminas has a tendency to get involved in the affairs of others which do not really concern him. While he is now neutral in outlook between Good and Evil, he has no qualms whatsoever about killing those who stand in way. However, he will never (deliberately) injure or otherwise harm a child, nor a woman with child. He follows his own Code, not that of any God or other divine being . . . and regardless of the consequences he honors his Code and his Convictions. For further information on his philosophy, it is suggested that one read the Strictures and Morals of the Order of the Ebon Rose.
Enjoy.
MA
I think much of the ops premises are built on false assumptions. Mobility? The fighter will presumably be flying 90 in mithril full plate.
You have just neatly encapsulated the essence of why I hate pathfinder past about level 8-10.
I've actually got what I wanted from this thread.
Monks are playable and fill a role.
Playable if you have a Master's degree in system mastery and all the splat-books, yes. Otherwise, no.
As for role...which role, exactly, other than "guy who runs away and survives the TPK"?
Fighters also have a niche.
A very solid and essential niche, unlike the monk's.
Different parties would benefit more from one or the other.
Actually, most parties would benefit more from the fighter. I'm not saying that some parties wouldn't do better with a monk, but I think they are on the fringe.
Decent damage + defenses and skills.Different parties would benefit more from one or the other.Again, seriously, what party benefits more from a Monk than from any other class?
Decent damage - compared to what? On the whole, Lormyr's trick-build aside, he's not anywhere near the same playing field as the full-BAB classes, and damage is his only reliable offensive tool. That's poor damage.
Defences - check, he's good on those, but is he so good as to offset his poor offences, and do his defences do jack for his team-mates?
Skills - we've already systematically debunked this one.
So basically, he brings less across the board than a superstitious barbarian, who can at least do decent damage.
Like a tankier TWF ranger.
...only not as good at just about everything that a ranger could do.
The monk is a weak generalist in a game that rewards specialisation. That doesn't mean they cannot contribute, and are not fun to play, but mechanically they are weaksauce and need improving.
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The monk is a weak generalist in a game that rewards specialisation. That doesn't mean they cannot contribute, and are not fun to play, but mechanically they are weaksauce and need improving.
I disagree.
The mechanical advantages are there. I think most of you want to play class either with the best DPR, the best skill set, or spells. The monk has OK DPR and decent skills. Aside from their list and skill points, a monks class features help make their skills better (no armor check penalty, fast movement, dimension door, etherealness, tongues).
So no there has been no debunking on the monks skill advantage. Their DPR is still greater than 9th lvl spells. And they have solid defenses.
I cannot even begin to understand what sort of games you are playing where that is weaksauce and needs improving.
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Actually, most parties would benefit more from the fighter.
Very generally speaking, for a typical 4 man party of 1 martial, 1 arcane, 1 divine, 1 specialist, I would be inclined to agree.
Do many people still play this way? I can't remember that last time I sat down and made a balanced party. We all typically just roll up what we think sounds fun, and just make sure we are very self sustaining in whatever we build.
As for role...which role, exactly, other than "guy who runs away and survives the TPK"?
I personally like the story of the "guy who was the last man standing after the rest of the party got smoked, and proceeded to wipe the floor with the remaining baddies over the course of the next couple rounds because they just couldn't affect him, thus being able to carry his dear friend's corpses back to town for resurrection". :p
I think most of you want to play class either with the best DPR.
If that is one's heart's desire, they are probably better off with a fighter or barbarian, unless they are very good at building a monk. I'd put a tetori gargantuan earth elemental shifted monk over a fighter for pure damage any day, though. That DPR is easily over 700 - close to double that if we measure from a round where the foe started pinned.
Does the typical fighter fight better than the typical monk? Probably. That's ok with me though. My monk would not only outlast any fighter in any "oh crap" or overwhelming odds situation (of appropriate CR obviously), but would also most likely emerge victorious. That is what I personally enjoy from the monk class. That survivability is worth some DPR to me personally.
*Snipped irrelevant part*
So no there has been no debunking on the monks skill advantage. Their DPR is still greater than 9th lvl spells. And they have solid defenses.
I cannot even begin to understand what sort of games you are playing where that is weaksauce and needs improving.
Better damage than 9th level spell? Well I guess if you take run of the mill caster that is wasting their spellslots sure. But since the monk is most certainly optimized to an extenct let's do the same to the spellslot. Battering blast(3rd)+intensify(+1)+Empower(+2)+Maximize(+3), with spell perfection, spell specilization, and Varisian(mage's) tattoo, Spell penetration, Greater spell penetration, Elf.
Damage on average 265.025, assuming 95% chance of hitting the touch AC. And with 1d20+32 against SR auto success.
Yes it is rather specilized but that is not even the best you can do, just something of the top of my head. My basic point is that you can't compare apples to oranges in this case Meteor shower(Assumption on my part) and monk dpr, when the monk is optimized and the 9th level slot could be used a lot better for damage.(added insult injury is that the spell would actually only use 6th level slot, spell perfection is there to just raise the CL or that you could use quickened in the same round for even more damage.)
On the basic idea that Monk>Fighter at high levels, in a vacuum sure. In a party context however fighter all the way, even that said fighter is pretty lackluster too and needs work.
You can use either class to make a character that contributes, but in far fewer ways and with far more effort than with others. If same effort is placed on "better" classes they would knock the fighter and monk out of the park.
I make these statements for core only. Outside of core, a monk is doing ridiculous damage as Lormyr has shown.
Inside core monks do more damage than 9th lvl spells. Outside core, they still do more damage than 9th lvl spells. Everything gets cranked up to 11.
For many people DPR != 'everything' when they are playing classes that don't cast spells.
As far as the claim goes that monks are harder to optimize, just look at this thread for Lormyr's builds. That is basically a guide on "How to the Monk". If he ever gets around to making a guide (like there is for all the 'easier' to optimizes classes) then the effort complaint becomes moot.
Don't even try to say that obscure sources is a problem. Just about every magus on these forums takes dervish dance, which is an equally obscure feat to anything that Lormyr is doing.
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As far as the claim goes that monks are harder to optimize, just look at this thread for Lormyr's builds. That is basically a guide on "How to the Monk". If he ever gets around to making a guide (like there is for all the 'easier' to optimizes classes) then the effort complaint becomes moot.
I suppose I could start writing up an in-depth guide over the course of the next few weeks if there was enough demand for it. I threw out 85% of the goodies in this thread already, but there are still a handful of trade secrets I left undisclosed. :p
As far as the claim goes that monks are harder to optimize, just look at this thread for Lormyr's builds. That is basically a guide on "How to the Monk". If he ever gets around to making a guide (like there is for all the 'easier' to optimizes classes) then the effort complaint becomes moot.I suppose I could start writing up an in-depth guide over the course of the next few weeks if there was enough demand for it. I threw out 85% of the goodies in this thread already, but there are still a handful of trade secrets I left undisclosed. :p
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You can use either class to make a character that contributes, but in far fewer ways and with far more effort than with others. If same effort is placed on "better" classes they would knock the fighter and monk out of the park.
Cleric, Druid, Oracle, Sorcerer, Witch, or Wizard vs. fighter or monk? Yes, I agree. That is like comparing the deadly weapon potential of a ball point pen to a gladius, though.
If we take those options away, I would still feel great about the chances of the defense monk against any other class with one exception - a gungslinger pistolero with signature deed up close and deadly (specifically that - I'd compete against other gunslinger builds all day).
A single double-barrel pistol wielding pistolero at 20th level can make 12 attacks around. Even if every single attack completely misses, the target will still eat 1/2 of 60d6 damage. That right there is the most personally ass-chapping game mechanic I have ever encountered in 18 years of gaming. I have absolutely nothing for that until mythic tier mythic deflect arrows (outside of a few spells like winds of vengeance, and emergency force sphere, ect.)
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Ya know my favorite part about this thread?
I'm pretty sure that Marthkus is the only one to actually include the extra HP from "Toughness" in his stat-blocks.
Which is why stat-blocks are dumb. People tend to forget to math. :P
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That is like comparing the deadly weapon potential of a ball point pen to a gladius, though.
Yeah, and everybody knows that the pen is mightier than the sword.
By the way Lormyr, I would love to see you write a guide.
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But I am relativly certain that if we take 20 even rather good people at optimizing and let them make builds then the same people used each and every class to make a build, I am pretty certain monk is going to be very far from the top.
It depends on what we are measuring. You will be hard pressed to acquire superior defensive capability than the monk. Better DPR or utility, though? Agreed.
Later this evening I will post a crazy non-core (core is so boring) magus and paladin side by side with the monk to entreat further discussion.
I would also love to read a guide written by you, Lormyr. You and Marthkus seem to play games that are quite similar to those I know.
Though we do not use splat books, only hardcover, quite a bit of what you posted could be used directly.
It has been very refreshing to read a thread with "monk" in its title that did not end with just the same statments that monks suck, defenses don't matter, SR is worthless etc. :-)
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This build is a little better on the to hit bonus and AC than the falcata version due to less MAD from Dervish Dance. The falcata version was only slightly behind on attack bonus and AC, but hit considerably harder.
Tiefling Magus (Bladebound, Kensai) 20; AL N
Medium Outsider (native)
Init +22 (automatic 42), Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +26
DEFENSE
AC 55 (+11 Dex, +10 Int, +8 armor, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +2 luck, +7 natural), touch 40, flat-footed 33; +4 sacred bonus against attacks of opportunity made with natural attacks
hp 243 (20d8+140)
Fort +25, Ref +24, Will +19
Defensive Abilities evasion; Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +5 black blade scimitar +34/+29/+24 (1d6+25/15-20 x3) with Arcane Strike
Ranged sling +27/+22/+17 (1d4+7) with Arcane Strike
Special Attacks accurate strike, greater spell combat, perfect strike, spellstrike
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th; concentration +17)
3/day- stilled greater heroism
1/day- darkness, heroism, symbol of fear (DC 13; casting time 1 minute)
Magus Spells Prepared (CL 20th; concentration +30)
6th- disintegrate (+27 ranged touch; DC 26), greater dispel magic (x2), flesh to stone (DC 26), true seeing, wall of iron
5th- acidic spray (DC 25), cloudkill (DC 25), cone of cold (DC 25), overland flight, teleport, wall of force
4th- arcana theft (+27 touch), intensified fireball (DC 23) (x2), fire shield, greater invisibility, stoneskin
3rd- blink, cloak of winds, dispel magic, displacement, haste, stinking cloud (DC 23)
2nd- frigid touch (+27 touch) (x3), gust of wind, mirror image (x3)
1st- shield (x2), intensified shocking grasp (+27 touch) (x5)
STATISTICS
Str 15, Dex 32, Con 22, Int 30, Wis 10, Cha 5
Base Atk +15; CMB +20 (+36 with weapon); CMD 49 (immune to disarm)
Feats Alertness, Armor of the Pit, Arcane Strike, Blind-Fight, Celestial Obedience, Combat Expertise, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Greater Weapon Focus (scimitar), Greater Weapon Specialization (scimitar), Improved Critical (scimitar), Intensified Spell, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (scimitar), Weapon Specialization (scimitar)
Traits Fate's Favored, Magical Lineage (shocking grasp)
Skills Acrobatics +33, Bluff +26, Escape Artist +33 (+43 to escape grapple), Fly +24, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (arcana) +35, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +35, Knowledge (planes) +35, Perception +26, Perform (dance) +1, Sense Motive +18, Spellcraft +35, Stealth +40, Use Magic Device +22
SQ arcane pool 16, black blade, canny defense, counterstrike, courageous roar, dauntless, diminished spellcasting, fighter training, holy terror, iaijutsu, iaijutsu focus, iaijutsu master, magus arcana (bane blade, enduring blade, ghost blade), prehensile tail, superior reflexes, weapon mastery (falcata)
Combat Gear rod of extend metamagic (x2), rod of lesser quicken metamagic; Other Gear amulet of natural armor +5, belt of physical perfection +6, blessed book, bracers of armor +8, headband of vast intelligence +6, highwayman's cape, cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attack rolls), cracked pale green prism ioun stone (saving throws), dusty rose prism ioun stone, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, otherwordly kimono, ring of evasion, ring of protection +5, stone of good luck, wayfinder
Manuals and Tomes Magus has read a manual of bodily health +2, manual of quickness of action +4, and a tome of clear thought +5.
Standard buffs:
greater heroism 20 min
true seeing 20 min
overland flight 20 hr
stoneskin 3 hr, 20 min
cloak of winds 20 min
mirror image 20 min
shield 20 min
Changes stat block as follows:
Init +22 (automatic 42), Senses darkvision 60 ft., true seeing; Perception +30
AC 59 (+11 Dex, +10 Int, +8 armor, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +2 luck, +7 natural, +4 shield), touch 40, flat-footed 37; +4 sacred bonus against attacks of opportunity made with natural attacks
hp 263 (20d8+140)
Fort +29, Ref +28, Will +23
DR 10/adamantine; Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune fear; Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 40 ft.
Melee +5 black blade scimitar +38/+33/+28 (1d6+25/15-20 x3) with Arcane Strike
Ranged sling +31/+26/+21 (1d4+7) with Arcane Strike
Base Atk +15; CMB +24 (+40 with weapon); CMD 49 (immune to disarm)
Skills Acrobatics +37, Bluff +30, Escape Artist +37 (+47 to escape grapple), Fly +28, Intimidate +26, Knowledge (arcana) +39, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +39, Knowledge (planes) +39, Perception +30, Perform (dance) +5, Sense Motive +22, Spellcraft +39, Stealth +44, Use Magic Device +26
Further combat options:
fight defensively (+3 AC and CMD; -4 attack rolls and CMB)
Combat Expertise (+4 AC and CMD; -4 attack rolls and CMB)
arcane pool (in particular to add brilliant energy, ghost touch, and/or bane)
accurate strike (make all melee attacks touch attacks for 1 round - cancels use of Arcane Strike however)
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Aasimar (Angelkin) Paladin (Oathbound Paladin) 19/Oracle (Seeker) 1; AL LG
Medium Outsider (native)
Init +12, Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +30
Aura courage (10 ft.), faith (10 ft.), justice (10 ft.), resolve (10 ft.), righteousness (10 ft.)
DEFENSE
AC 55 (+11 Cha, +14 armor, +5 deflection, +1 insight, +2 luck, +5 natural, +7 shield), touch 29, flat-footed 44
hp 264 (20d10+140)
Fort +36, Ref +22, Will +30
DR 5/evil; Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune charm, compulsion, disease, fear; Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5; SR 24
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 30 ft. (20 ft. in full plate)
Melee holy avenger +35/+30/+25/+20 (1d8+19 plus 2d6 holy/19-20 x2) with Arcane Strike
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +20/+15/+10/+5 (1d8+15/20 x3) with Arcane Strike
Special Attacks channel positive energy (DC 30; 9d6), smite evil (+11 attack and AC, +19 damage) 7/day
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th; concentration +31)
At will- detect evil
1/day- alter self
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 19th; concentration +30)
4th- greater angelic aspect, chains of light (DC 25), death ward, freedom of movement
3rd- archon's aura (DC 24), blade of bright victory, daylight, deadly juggernaut, greater magic weapon, see invisibility
2nd- heroism, litany of entanglement (DC 23) (x2), resist energy (x2), weapon of awe
1st- divine favor (x5), expeditious retreat (x2)
STATISTICS
Str 28, Dex 7, Con 22, Int 15, Wis 11, Cha 32
Base Atk +20; CMB +32 (+37 with weapon); CMD 60
Feats Angel Wings, Angelic Blood, Arcane Strike, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Noble Scion (war), Power Attack, Quick Channel, Selective Channeling, Unsanctioned Knowledge (expeditious retreat, freedom of movement, heroism, see invisibility)
Traits Fate's Favored, Threatening Defender
Skills Diplomacy +26, Disable Device +28, Knowledge (religion) +16, Perception +30, Sense Motive +25
SQ auras, divine bond (weapon +5) 4/day, divine grace, divine health, lay on hands (9d6) 20/day, mercies (blinded, dazed, exhausted, nauseated, sickened, staggered), mystery (nature), oracle's curse (legalistic), revelation (nature's whispers), skilled, tinkering
Combat Gear rod of lesser extend metamagic; Other Gear +5 full plate, +5 heavy steel shield, holy avenger, +1 adaptive composite longbow, amulet of natural armor +5, belt of physical might (Constitution and Strength) +6, boots of speed, eyes of the eagle, headband of alluring charisma +6, cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attack rolls), cracked pale green prism ioun stone (saving throws), dusty rose prism ioun stone, scarlet and blue sphere ioun stone, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, otherwordly kimono, ring of evasion, ring of protection +5, stone of good luck, trapspringer's gloves, wayfinder (lesser)
Manuals and Tomes Paladin has read a manual of bodily health +2, manual of gainful exercise +4, and a tome of leadership and influence +5.
Standard buffs:
greater angelic aspect 19 min
death ward 19 min
freedom of movement 3 hr, 10 min
archon's aura 19 min
blade of bright victory 19 min
deadly juggernaut 19 min
greater magic weapon on bow, 19 hr
see invisibility 3 hr, 10 min
heroism 3 hr, 10 min
2 resist energy 3 hr, 10 min
weapon of awe 19 min
expeditious retreat 19 min
Changes stat block as follows:
Init +12, Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, see invisibility; Perception +32
Aura archon's (20 ft.), courage (10 ft.), faith (10 ft.), justice (10 ft.), protective (20 ft.), resolve (10 ft.), righteousness (10 ft.)
Fort +38, Ref +24, Will +32; +4 vs. death effects and poison
DR DR 10/evil; Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune acid, charm, cold, compulsion, disease, fear, movement impeding effects, negative energy, petrification; Resist electricity 30, fire 30; SR 24
Speed 50 ft., fly 60 ft.
Melee holy avenger +37/+32/+27/+22 (1d8+21 plus 2d6 holy/19-20 x2) with Arcane Strike
Ranged +4 adaptive composite longbow +25/+20/+15/+10 (1d8+18/20 x3) with Arcane Strike
Base Atk +20; CMB +34 (+39 with weapon); CMD 60 (68 vs. disarm and sunder)
Skills Diplomacy +28, Disable Device +30, Knowledge (religion) +18, Perception +32, Sense Motive +27
Further combat options:
Combat Expertise (+6 AC and CMD; -5 attack rolls and CMB)
Power Attack (+12 damage; -6 attack rolls and CMB)
smite evil (+6 to AC and CMD; +11 on attack rolls and CMB; +19 damage) vs. valid target
weapon bond (in particular to add axiomatic, brilliant energy, defending, holy, keen, speed) 19 mins
divine favor (+4 luck bonus on attack rolls, CMB, and damage)
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Aasimar (Plumekith) Monk (Qinggong Monk) 20; AL LG
Medium Outsider (native)
Init +13, Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +40
DEFENSE
AC 53 (+12 Dex, +9 Wis, +5 monk, +8 armor, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +2 luck), touch 45, flat-footed 39; +4 sacred bonus against attacks of opportunity made with natural attacks
hp 223 (20d8+120)
Fort +25, Ref +32, Will +29; +2 vs. death effects, enchantment spells and effects, energy drain, necromancy spells and effects, and negative energy
DR 10/chaotic; Defensive Abilities improved evasion; Immune disease, poison; Resist negative energy 5; SR 30
OFFENSE
Speed 90 ft.
Melee +4 agile unarmed strike +33/+28/+23 (2d10+16/19-20 x2) or
Melee +4 agile unarmed strike +36/+36/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21 (2d10+16/19-20 x2) with flurry of blows
Ranged n/a
Special Attacks bane (5 rounds/day), blood crow strike (2 ki), cold ice strike (DC 29; 3 ki), flurry of blows, quivering palm (DC 29) 1/day, scorching ray (2 ki), stunning fist (DC 29) 20/day
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th; concentration +17)
3/day- stilled greater heroism
1/day- heroism, see invisibility
STATISTICS
Str 13, Dex 34, Con 20, Int 15, Wis 28, Cha 7
Base Atk +15; CMB +40 (+42 trip and disarm); CMD 63 (65 vs. disarm, grapple, and reposition; 67 vs. trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Alertness, Blind-Fight, Celestial Obedience, Combat Expertise, Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Piranha Strike, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Traits Fate's Favored, Threatening Defender
Skills Acrobatics +39 (+73 when jumping), Escape Artist +39, Perception +40, Sense Motive +42, Stealth +42, Use Magic Device +22
SQ abundant step (2 ki), barkskin (1 ki), courageous roar, dauntless, deathless spirit, diamond body, diamond soul, empty body (3 ki), fast movement, ki pool (adamantine, cold iron, lawful, magic, silver) 19, maneuver training, native outsider, obedience, perfect self, purity of body, still mind, truespeaker, unarmed strike, wholeness of body (2 ki)
Combat Gear scroll of strong jaw (x2), staff of minor arcana; Other Gear +4 agile amulet of mighty fists, bane baldric, belt of physical perfection +6, +1 brilliant bodywrap of mighty strikes, bracers of armor +8, cloak of resistance +5, goz mask, cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, 5 cracked magneta prism ioun stones [/i](Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Perception, Sense Motive, Use Magic Device), cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attack rolls), cracked pale green prism ioun stone (saving throws), pale ruby trillian ioun stone, handwraps of blinding ki, headband of inspired wisdom +6, dark blue rhomboid ioun stone, dusty rose prism ioun stone, scarlet and blue sphere ioun stone, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, ring of ki mastery (storing 2 ki), ring of protection +5, rod of balance, stone of good luck, tremor boots, wayfinder
Manuals and Tomes Monk has read a manual of quickness of action +5 and a tome of understanding +4.
Standard buffs:
greater heroism 20 min
barkskin 3 hr 20 min
see invisibility 3 hr 20 min
shield 8 min
Changes stat block as follows:
Init +13, Senses darkvision 60 ft., see invisibility; Perception +44
AC 62 (+12 Dex, +9 Wis, +5 monk, +8 armor, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +2 luck, +5 natural, +4 shield), touch 45, flat-footed 48; +4 sacred bonus against attacks of opportunity made with natural attacks
hp 243 (20d8+120)
Fort +29, Ref +36, Will +33; +2 vs. death effects, enchantment spells and effects, energy drain, necromancy spells and effects, and negative energy
DR 10/chaotic; Defensive Abilities improved evasion; Immune disease, fear, poison; Resist negative energy 5; SR 30
Speed 90 ft.
Melee +4 agile unarmed strike +37/+32/+27 (2d10+16/19-20 x2) or
Melee +4 agile unarmed strike +40/+40/+35/+35/+30/+30/+25 (2d10+16/19-20 x2) with flurry of blows
Base Atk +15; CMB +44 (+46 trip and disarm); CMD 63 (65 vs. disarm, grapple, and reposition; 67 vs. trip)
Skills Acrobatics +43 (+77 when jumping), Escape Artist +43, Perception +44, Sense Motive +46, Stealth +46, Use Magic Device +26
Further combat options:
fight defensively (+6 AC and CMD; -1 attack rolls and CMB)
Combat Expertise (+6 AC and CMD; -5 attack rolls and CMB)
Piranha Strike (+12 damage; -6 attack rolls and CMB)
ki attack w/ handwraps of blinding ki (1 additional attak at highest attack bonus as well as one additional stunning fist attempt)
ki dodge (+4 AC and CMD)
bane baldric (+2 attack rolls and CMB; +2d6 damage)
use scroll of strong jaw (raise base damage to 6d8+16/19-20 x2) for 7 min
Bwuah! It would take me 4 hours to do something like that only using the CRB. 0_0