Brainstorming: Alternatives to Books


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5/5

As I see it, the problem that this topic is addressing is, "How does someone who has a bootload full of books bring a legal character to a PFS table without getting a hernia?"

The goal of the current system is to Prove ownership and to Make rules available for reference.

Noone seems to dispute that the rules must be available for reference, and that the PDF or physical book is the only actual source for it. It goes without saying that a photocopy would satisfy the "rules available for reference" criteria.

So, to prove ownership, we refer to the guide:

Guide 5.0 p5 wrote:

You must inform the Game Master that you plan to use Additional Resource material before play begins, so he has a chance to familiarize himself with the new material.

We already have an inventory tracking sheet. Why not just create an additional resources tracking sheet, that has columns for Resource, Source, Page number, and GM/VO signature. This would be the sheet that can satisfy both the "prove ownership" and "inform the GM" criteria - and also allow players to know which pages they need to print out.

It would be used in conjunction with other rules sources (aka hardcopies, watermarked PDFs, printouts or photocopies) in order for the relevant rules to be viewed.

It also has the side benefit of deterring the people who rely solely on unofficial third-party websites (they generally don't include page number - also making checking against Additional Resources a challenge).

Dark Archive

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This might be a crazy idea, and I could see where it would have some legal issues that need to be ironed out, but here goes:

There could be a subscription option for the PRD. For some dollar figure each month, you could be a financial contributor to the PRD. Something as simple as paper car insurance cards could be distributed by email to those who request them: name, #, and what the start and end date of your paid for subscription is. These would be mere vanity items for those who don't play PFS, but for PFS they could authorize you in that time period to use the PRD on your phone, photocopies of hardcopy books the PRD includes, or direct PRD print outs. The player would be responsible for having the material ready to access, but it would be considered a legal source. When Paizo decides on an end date for the PRD, when they are taking down, they stop selling subscriptions for anything after that date. Like an MMORPG, the license agreement would have normal provisos about server maintenance and downtime and whatnot.

This would give interested people the ability to pay Paizo for the great service the PRD is. Even those of us who own many of the books in the PRD in some form still reference the PRD often. I own 7/12 of those books, but they are not hyperlinked, and when doing my gaming homework it is much faster to bop around the PRD than through my 7 books. This would let people in that position put defray the cost of Paizo's that it is costing Paizo. People who prefer physical books could have the convenience of electronic print outs without guilt, and those in the PRD represent most of the really heavy ones. Those with little income could have a way of contributing to Paizo when they can.

The physical books, the PRD, and PDFs have very different strengths and weaknesses.

The PDFs let you own a Paizo book for a very affordable sum, they give you that "ctrl-F" ability, but otherwise are less readable, and you rarely discover new things by flipping the way you do with a book. They are very light to carry, and don't require internet access. PDF versions of books have extra info that doesn't make the PRD, such as which god grants which subdomains in the APG. Many more books are available in PDF than the PRD or physical books. PDF's have some copyright issues that make them less than ideal for a gaming group that buys its books together.

The PRD requires and app or internet access, but allows you to search all 12 books currently included in a single search box. The hyperlinking is great, as is the fact that it is always up to date. You can't own the PRD, so it doesn't help long term game collectors in that way, but in the present it is a fantastic resource. The PRD doesn't have some of the world-specific details, but those tend to be much more important when building your character at home than running it at the table. It is much more accessible to screen readers and easier to make visible via other software for the visually impaired. You can't forget to bring it, lose it, or have it stolen from you. It is also not heavy.

Physical books don't require batteries, and have a very different reading experience for some folks. You can sell or lend them, or even physically modify them to your needs. They are a lot easier to pass around a table without fear of breaking your device. You can keep them for posterity without worrying about backwards compatible software. They are heavy, and they don't have the convenience of electronic searching.

In my mind, the perfect price point would be $5/month. That would leave you the option of either buying a PDF every 2-3 months or subscribing, whichever was better for you. Individually it would be very affordable, but if it turned out to be popular it could add a nice monthly income for Paizo. Permanent book ownership matters to most people enough that I don't think it would just replace purchasing the hardcover line.

In terms of "is it worth it for Paizo", I think that comes down to how much it costs to run a program like this, send out the little insurance cards, and deal with billing and complaints. I know it costs something, but how much is outside my experience.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Mekkis wrote:
Guide 5.0 p5 wrote:

You must inform the Game Master that you plan to use Additional Resource material before play begins, so he has a chance to familiarize himself with the new material.

We already have an inventory tracking sheet. Why not just create an additional resources tracking sheet, that has columns for Resource, Source, Page number, and GM/VO signature. This would be the sheet that can satisfy both the "prove ownership" and "inform the GM" criteria - and also allow players to know which pages they need to print out.

It would be used in conjunction with other rules sources (aka hardcopies, watermarked PDFs, printouts or photocopies) in order for the relevant rules to be viewed.

It also has the side benefit of deterring the people who rely solely on unofficial third-party websites (they generally don't include page number - also making checking against Additional Resources a challenge).

People don't want to deal with the inventory tracking sheet now. Adding another tracking sheet won't increase compliance.

In order to actually prove ownership, the sheet would have to be checked each session and updated as needed. Otherwise, it wouldn't prove ownership at all. It would just prove that at some point the player showed someone a copy of that book that he might still own and might have never actually owned. That would mean the player would have to produce all their books each time to be checked again which would mean they have to bring them all anyway making this a waste of time.

If it's a GM's signature, this whole exercise is just a waste of time and paper to satisfy a few people that the rules are being followed. Anyone inclined to bypass the rules could easily get a buddy to sign off on it in exchange for signing off on his. It would only work for people who are inclined to follow the rules and none of this is needed for them anyway.

Those sites might not have it but pirated PDFs certainly do. It wouldn't take more than a minute to find that information.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **

mgcady wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
I HIGHLY doubt that you have a have to lug heavy books issue when you play online...just saying. So this wouldn't be an issue for that. Now IF your nearest VO is not easily reachable...maybe a provision for a GM or a store coordinator to do it maybe?

It's not so much "lugging books" around, but "how do I prove to a GM online that I have X physical book I purchased at a game store/won as a prize at a con so I can use it as a source." Just scanning the page(s) from your book isn't sufficient proof because its not a watermarked PDF.

A tracking sheet that can be signed by an approved authority can be scanned and emailed to the GM with page scan for the rule(s) in question I think is a good solution.

I don't think proof of ownership is part of the requirements for online play as under the current system, there is ZERO possibility of compliance if your using physical books.

Shadow Lodge 2/5 5/5 *

Something important to remember is that if you start making more rules that assume you don't trust your players then the tone of the entire community changes.

I've been in a group for a long time that by default assumes every player is out to cheat and lie. The solution from the game staff was to implement more rules rather than just trust the players (and kick out the bad apples). This has given rise to a culture that leads to endless appeals up the GM chain, and insane rules for auditing and requesting special permission for things that really should be no brainers.

I see discussions like this and see people diving down the same rabbit holes I've seen before. Not saying you shouldn't look at rules, but just be carefull your rules don't make all the players focus on themselves over the community.

5/5

yosemitemike wrote:
Mekkis wrote:
Guide 5.0 p5 wrote:

You must inform the Game Master that you plan to use Additional Resource material before play begins, so he has a chance to familiarize himself with the new material.

People don't want to deal with the inventory tracking sheet now. Adding another tracking sheet won't increase compliance.

I think it would be impossible to reduce compliance of that rule: where I game, it's very rare for a player to come forward at the start of a game saying "these are the additional resources I'm using". This sheet would encourage it.

yosemitemike wrote:


In order to actually prove ownership, the sheet would have to be checked each session and updated as needed. Otherwise, it wouldn't prove ownership at all. It would just prove that at some point the player showed someone a copy of that book that he might still own and might have never actually owned. That would mean the player would have to produce all their books each time to be checked again which would mean they have to bring them all anyway making this a waste of time.

If it's a GM's signature, this whole exercise is just a waste of time and paper to satisfy a few people that the rules are being followed. Anyone inclined to bypass the rules could easily get a buddy to sign off on it in exchange for signing off on his. It would only work for people who are inclined to follow the rules and none of this is needed for them anyway.

It would provide a means for a player who has bought a crateload of Pathfinder books a way of playing a legal character using photocopies, rather than rebuying PDFs, or "bypassing the rules" and pirating PDFs, then adding watermarks.

If watermarking fraud becomes commonplace, then the integrity of the "watermarked PDFs prove ownership" premise is out of the window, and everyone loses.

Don't lump the paying customers who photocopy their books for convenience with the non-customers who pirate.

yosemitemike wrote:


Those sites might not have it but pirated PDFs certainly do. It wouldn't take more than a minute to find...

This is a Good Thing. It allows a GM to determine whether the feat "Master of Wonders", from Gnomes of Golarion is legal for PFS play. Without knowing the page number, it's impossible to check legality.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

casts greater thread necromancy

I apologize for reanimating this topic, but rather that creating a new one asking about the "let GMs doodle in our books and give us a special books ownership sheet" option. I seems to work for the boons from the novels, so has player/GM/VO opinion on this issue changed?

Personally I have already shifted to PDFs since I have no FLGS in my area and hardcover shipping cost to Germany is quite expensive (of course pawns really are even more expensive), but quite a number of my fellow players like to support their local gaming store/book store.

A solution like this could be beneficial to those players, and since Paizo actually wants to sell the dead tree versions (apparently printing cost scale in a way, that makes books more expensive once you print fewer of them, IIRC someone once claimed that the cost to print the old 3.5 PHB was about 2-3 $) it makes actually buying them a more attractive option.

Dark Archive 5/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

casts greater thread necromancy

I apologize for reanimating this topic, but rather that creating a new one asking about the "let GMs doodle in our books and give us a special books ownership sheet" option. I seems to work for the boons from the novels, so has player/GM/VO opinion on this issue changed?

Personally I have already shifted to PDFs since I have no FLGS in my area and hardcover shipping cost to Germany is quite expensive (of course pawns really are even more expensive), but quite a number of my fellow players like to support their local gaming store/book store.

A solution like this could be beneficial to those players, and since Paizo actually wants to sell the dead tree versions (apparently printing cost scale in a way, that makes books more expensive once you print fewer of them, IIRC someone once claimed that the cost to print the old 3.5 PHB was about 2-3 $) it makes actually buying them a more attractive option.

The fundamental issue remains "have the source of a rules item available for the GM who must adjudicate it at the time they need it".

No system of signoffs plus alternative sources is going to provide as much policy-stable simplicity as "you want to use it, be able to provide a copy of the rule from (list of acceptable sources)".

The only improvement I'd like to see to favor those who pay for dead tree is "legible" photocopies are OK... i.e. black toner, white paper, 95%+ scale. (to accommodate scanner/copiers that don't actually make 100% fidelity copies).

3/5

Nice necro. :)

As a huge fan of dead tree books (and supporting my local FLGS so they let me keep scheduling PFS games there), I'm somewhat very interested in a solution that doesn't involve me petitioning Paizo to do a kobold-themed Pathfinder Wheelbarrow™ (mostly because the shipping cost would probably be the price of a city streets map pack these days - waaay to damn expensive).

Would love to be able to travel to more cons to play using my characters that use a variety of additional resources.

-TimD

Lantern Lodge 5/5

TetsujinOni wrote:
The fundamental issue remains "have the source of a rules item available for the GM who must adjudicate it at the time they need it".

This is the key. If I (as a GM) cannot read it, I should have every right to disallow it.

Tangential Question::
If someone's character runs out of batteries, am I allowed to boot them? It's an incredible hassle, but it penalizes all of the other players

5/5 5/55/55/5

Dammit, there goes plan c

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

TetsujinOni wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

casts greater thread necromancy

I apologize for reanimating this topic, but rather that creating a new one asking about the "let GMs doodle in our books and give us a special books ownership sheet" option. I seems to work for the boons from the novels, so has player/GM/VO opinion on this issue changed?

Personally I have already shifted to PDFs since I have no FLGS in my area and hardcover shipping cost to Germany is quite expensive (of course pawns really are even more expensive), but quite a number of my fellow players like to support their local gaming store/book store.

A solution like this could be beneficial to those players, and since Paizo actually wants to sell the dead tree versions (apparently printing cost scale in a way, that makes books more expensive once you print fewer of them, IIRC someone once claimed that the cost to print the old 3.5 PHB was about 2-3 $) it makes actually buying them a more attractive option.

No system of signoffs plus alternative sources is going to provide as much policy-stable simplicity as "you want to use it, be able to provide a copy of the rule from (list of acceptable sources)".

Essentially this solution would just increase the number of acceptable sources, think of it like a boon.

Instead of showing pathfinder novels to your GM and letting him initial that chronicle sheet (free download chronicle sheets) and then being able to use that selection of boons on your selected character, you show your VO your copy of ultimate equipment, he or she makes an initial on the to be constructed special chronicle/boon sheet, and then you can use photocopies from your hardcover, a print out from the PRD website or the website itself, or a printed page from the pdf of one of your friends (that last point is pretty bad since Paizo really doesn't want to add restriction to pdf use) as a legal source.

So it pretty much works exactly like those novel chronicles, you only have to bring the novel once, and you still have to provide a source. GMs are literally losing nothing, other than the fact, that players can more easily highlight material on the printed pages.

TetsujinOni wrote:


The only improvement I'd like to see to favor those who pay for dead tree is "legible" photocopies are OK... i.e. black toner, white paper, 95%+ scale. (to accommodate scanner/copiers that don't actually make 100% fidelity copies).

Some (pretty expensive) can print at 100 % but most can't you are correct.

Of course if this doesn't work out, players could just take their books apart and bring the individual pages.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

TimD wrote:

Nice necro. :)

As a huge fan of dead tree books (and supporting my local FLGS so they let me keep scheduling PFS games there), I'm somewhat very interested in a solution that doesn't involve me petitioning Paizo to do a kobold-themed Pathfinder Wheelbarrow™ (mostly because the shipping cost would probably be the price of a city streets map pack these days - waaay to damn expensive).

Would love to be able to travel to more cons to play using my characters that use a variety of additional resources.

-TimD

I have started using the trolley I once bought for short business trips, to transport my material. Going to a convention with a giant Ikea box on my shoulders... seemed like overkill... and I brought that box at least 5 times to my regular weekly PFS games.

And of course.... rain can be a problem.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Jayson MF Kip wrote:
TetsujinOni wrote:
The fundamental issue remains "have the source of a rules item available for the GM who must adjudicate it at the time they need it".

This is the key. If I (as a GM) cannot read it, I should have every right to disallow it.

** spoiler omitted **

After playing MTG for far too long I have seen a number of previously quite expensive cards... mostly destroyed by young inexperienced players.... I would not be surprised to learn that players bring beer/cat urin/??? soaked books. We really don't want that.

Regarding your tangential question, well this is one of the reason why they disallowed digital character sheets (and the chronicles always had to be physical), I suspect, that if you are nice and another player has the require source (or access to the PRD) things can continue.

But if that is not the case, or you have reason not to be understanding, the player can only use the parts of his character that are from the CRB so that figher2/brawler 9 suddenly has the saves of a fighter two (or assume slow progression in all areas like HP, BAB etc.).

That said this should be unlikely to happen and the guide is pretty clear if your can't produce that source, you can't use it on your character. As a GM you have to make a judgement call, when this renders the character unplayable, and I think that switching to a fresh pregen should not be an option.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


Regarding your tangential question, well this is one of the reason why they disallowed digital character sheets (and the chronicles always had to be physical), I suspect, that if you are nice and another player has the require source (or access to the PRD) things can continue.

To be clear, digital character sheets are not disallowed in PFS. Rather they are not official and a GM may request a physical character sheet if they so choose. But you are perfectly able to use a digital character sheet in PFS as long as the GM is okay with it.

TetsujinOni wrote:

The only improvement I'd like to see to favor those who pay for dead tree is "legible" photocopies are OK... i.e. black toner, white paper, 95%+ scale. (to accommodate scanner/copiers that don't actually make 100% fidelity copies).

While I would still like to see Paizo work with Lone Wolf to make Hero Lab an official source, the photocopy issue is the easiest and biggest thing to fix.

As I understand it, there are apparently two reasons photocopies are not allowed:

1) Photocopies are not proof of ownership because there is no proof they were photo copied from books you actually owned.

2) Photocopies can be (and apparently have been in the past) altered.

Regarding #1, this is what a Proof of Ownership sheet that is signed off on would fix.

Regarding #2, since .pdfs are allowed sources, and .pdfs can also be altered, I do not see how this is a legitimate argument against photo copies.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Jayson MF Kip wrote:

If someone's character runs out of batteries, am I allowed to boot them? It's an incredible hassle, but it penalizes all of the other players.

If there's still anything mechanical left in the session, like a combat, I don't see how you can NOT boot them. The player no longer has a character sheet.

(Since you have to bring the actual, physical Chronicles with you to a game session, I don't understand why you wouldn't also bring a print-out of the PC. Did it just rise a level?)

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ****

Chris Mortika wrote:
Jayson MF Kip wrote:

If someone's character runs out of batteries, am I allowed to boot them? It's an incredible hassle, but it penalizes all of the other players.

If there's still anything mechanical left in the session, like a combat, I don't see how you can NOT boot them. The player no longer has a character sheet.

(Since you have to bring the actual, physical Chronicles with you to a game session, I don't understand why you wouldn't also bring a print-out of the PC. Did it just rise a level?)

This, especially when the requirement to always have a physical (printed) has been ruled. Thus, in fact, I would be within my rights to disallow a character without a printed character sheet in the first place.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

(nods to Jack) I know a number of people who bring a (hand-written) paper copy to the table, but choose to use HeroLab on their device. Which is fine. But I generally don't ask them at the beginning of the session, "Do you have a back-up paper copy?" I think Jayson is right; this is a real hassle. I suppose I should start asking ...

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Chris Mortika wrote:
Jayson MF Kip wrote:

If someone's character runs out of batteries, am I allowed to boot them? It's an incredible hassle, but it penalizes all of the other players.

If there's still anything mechanical left in the session, like a combat, I don't see how you can NOT boot them. The player no longer has a character sheet.

(Since you have to bring the actual, physical Chronicles with you to a game session, I don't understand why you wouldn't also bring a print-out of the PC. Did it just rise a level?)

Yeah, but technically you would also have to boot them if someone stole their backpack with all their source material in it too. Because, while they had been able to prove legal ownership, they no longer can and can no longer supply the materials to the GM. Having your stuff stolen AND not getting to play your character double sucks.


This has happened at several games I have been to, or its a HUGE hassle when player X MUST be close to a plug or they lose access to everything.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

The 'must be near an outlet' thing can be very annoying. Especially when the power cord is at just the right length to create a tripwire trap for anyone tying to hug the walls to avoid squeezing through the mass of sweaty gamers and backpacks in the middle of the room. Inevitably someone fails their perception check and gets yell at by the trap setter for triggering the trap.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thefurmonger wrote:

This has happened at several games I have been to, or its a HUGE hassle when player X MUST be close to a plug or they lose access to everything.

This is why it's better to use Herolab on an Ipad. a fully charged Ipad has the stamina to outlast your average game session.


I use HeroLab on my Surface Pro. Even though it's a 1st gen machine, by turning off Wi-Fi it'll last well past one slot, and more than two with the battery keyboard attached.

But I also have a print copy in my binder along with my chronicles, because I'm not stupid.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Just don't forget, Hero lab is not a valid rules source, and has many errors in it.

Make sure you have the pdfs on your tablet as well.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

FLite wrote:

Just don't forget, Hero lab is not a valid rules source, and has many errors in it.

It doesn't have near as many errors as most hand written character sheets I have looked at and, quite frankly, it knows the rules better than most of the people I know.

But, yes, it currently is not a valid source and you need to supply valid sources. Though, those too can contain errors if they have not been updated for errata.

4/5 ****

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I have found that characters built with herolab are much less likely to have +1/- errors from things like ACP or favored class, or HP rounding for companions etc.

I've found that character built with herolab are much more likely to to have noticable errors in play such as combining things that don't work or taking options that are restricted in PFS while ignoring that restriction.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Robert Hetherington wrote:
I've found that character built with herolab are much more likely to to have noticable errors in play such as combining things that don't work or taking options that are restricted in PFS while ignoring that restriction.

Oddly, I have found that Hero Lab is much more likely to tell me something is illegal when it isn't, than tell me it is legal when it isn't.

Dark Archive 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Robert Hetherington wrote:

I have found that characters built with herolab are much less likely to have +1/- errors from things like ACP or favored class, or HP rounding for companions etc.

I've found that character built with herolab are much more likely to to have noticable errors in play such as combining things that don't work or taking options that are restricted in PFS while ignoring that restriction.

Find a bug, report a bug, product gets better (eventually).

Though the last one I found is a doozy to fix. (Oracle reveleation progress FCB, bonus feats, and how they're added)

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

TetsujinOni wrote:
Robert Hetherington wrote:

I have found that characters built with herolab are much less likely to have +1/- errors from things like ACP or favored class, or HP rounding for companions etc.

I've found that character built with herolab are much more likely to to have noticable errors in play such as combining things that don't work or taking options that are restricted in PFS while ignoring that restriction.

Find a bug, report a bug, product gets better (eventually).

Though the last one I found is a doozy to fix. (Oracle reveleation progress FCB, bonus feats, and how they're added)

Yeah, they still haven't fixed the problem with my Fire Theologian not being able to take Preferred Spell (fireball) and they have known about it for a while. But for the most part they are quick to fix bugs and it is not uncommon for me to report a bug only to find out they were right and I was wrong.

1/5

This thread has been re-necro'd recently and it seems to be tangential now but I had a thought.

Hostage Photos

The issue as I understand it is that a subset of PFS players own physical but not PDF versions of additional resources. They want to be able to travel to games as freely as those who own all resources in PDF form. Nobody wants to put in any extra effort, so any solution should focus on that subset.

We already have to rely on the PRD instead of the physical version of the books or you end up with players using pre-errata versions of things. So we are already requiring people to lug around dead tree talismans as a way to access the version of the rules on the PRD.

It won't work as a solution for everyone, but I imagine that most of the people who use physical books have access to a camera. It wouldn't matter whether the camera is digital analog or part of a phone. If there was a new rule saying that a photograph of the player next to a stack of hardback books with something showing the date that is hard to forge counted as proof, and then required anyone who uses such proof to have printouts of the relevant rules section, I think that could work.

You would have to set up specific guidelines, such as the photo is only valid proof for one week and then a new one is needed or the Paizo website showing the date must be in the background. I think it might be something that solves the issue and doesn't make anyone else put in extra effort. Softcover books still need to be hauled, but just being able to leave the CRB, APG, UC, UM, UE, and ACG at home would be a lot of weight out of a lot of backpacks. People would still need to bring the rule for the GM to peruse.

What do other people think of this idea?

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

Printing out a new photo every week would be a lot of hassle and could be costly.

That said, I support your efforts to come up with new solutions.

5/5

I think we should stop talking about forgery. When it comes to supplying additional resources, the easiest thing to forge would be the watermark.

I would be happy with Photocopy of the pages + a one-off sign-off by a Figure of Authority (GM/VL/VC - whatever satisfies Paizo).

The Exchange 3/5

I think my favorite suggestion someone had was Hardcover books would come with a PDF redemption code. Just make sure the code included with the book is secured in some way so that anyone just picking it up won't be able to redeem it. Honestly this would greatly benefit Local Game Stores because I'm sure they lose a lot of business to people who want the hardcover but don't purchase it because of how convenient PDFs are.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Ragoz, I imagine that retailers would lose many more sales if they were restricted to selling sealed hardcovers that people would have to buy sight unseen.

The Exchange 3/5

Just include a sealed code on the inside back cover. You don't have to seal the whole product.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Or give every store a display copy with no code, and seal the rest.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Joe Ducey wrote:
Or give every store a display copy with no code, and seal the rest.

I don't think most smaller stores distinguish between display and inventory.


Honestly while I find the rule livable as it is, if we did make photocopies legal again my life would get a LOT easier.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Ragoz wrote:
I think my favorite suggestion someone had was Hardcover books would come with a PDF redemption code.

Nobody has come up with a secure and foolproof way of getting this to work.

Also, if you could just get the PDF when buying the book from Amazon, etc. then Paizo would lost most of their subscribers overnight.

The Exchange 3/5

Is there really a difference? They are buying your product still.

Also I don't understand what's not foolproof. We have been sealing products for retail for ages. Are you saying we can't do it for this because someone might open the package and steal the redemption code? That's literally an issue for any product ever. It's not like Paizo's books are a special exception to theft.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Ragoz wrote:
Is there really a difference? They are buying your product still.

See this post from Vic Wertz, in particular the last couple of paragraphs. If the bonus PDF for subscribers gets eroded (by providing free PDFs to all), then given that there might be the odd book I don't want, or the product (and shipping) from Amazon is cheaper, or I might want to hold off buying for a couple of months (maybe to see the first reviews roll in), then there's no reason for me to subscribe.

Quote:
Also I don't understand what's not foolproof. We have been sealing products for retail for ages.

Have you?

Quote:
Are you saying we can't do it for this because someone might open the package and steal the redemption code? That's literally an issue for any product ever. It's not like Paizo's books are a special exception to theft.

How do you catch someone shoplifting an activation code?

Here's another relevant post from Vic Wertz on this topic.

The Exchange 3/5

The current subscriptions are at cover price with a bonus PDF. Make the PDF part of the product and offer another subscription bonus (discount, reward?).

Have I personally sealed a product for distribution? No. Vic Wertz mentions they don't want to seal the product entirely so I suggested a sealed pocket for the code on the inside back cover to reduce its inconvenience.

I would catch someone shoplifting my product the exact same way I would be vigilant anyway. If I see someone cutting open the back cover of my book I might say something.

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