Planar binding weirdness and aligned casters


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I realized today that planar binding has some weird interactions with non-neutral casters.

If I am an Chaotic Evil wizard and want to bind a demon to my service, I have to use magic circle against evil or magic circle against chaos. Those are [Good] and [Lawful] spells respectively. That's a little weird, but hey, wizards can cast whatever spell they want, right? It's not broken, just a little weird.

Let's say I'm a sorcerer instead. Suddenly I need to know a magic circle spell to get use out of spending a spell known on planar binding. Possibly more than one type of magic circle spell if I want to be able to conjure up things of different alignments. Or buy scrolls or something. It would be neat if planar binding specified what happens if you try to use it without a circle. Also, I need to take dimensional anchor, since so many things I might conjure can just slip out of the circle.

Okay, so maybe sorcerers aren't meant to be making pacts with Outsiders, and shouldn't take planar binding in the first place. But it's a bloodline spells for Infernal sorcerers, restricted to devils only. Or for Djinni or Efreeti bloodlines. It's a free gift with a hefty shipping and handling charge to use. (Especially for the Infernal sorcerer, who needs to invest in the magic circles that oppose his bloodline. Sure, this isn't a mechanical penalty on being opposite the bloodline, but it bothers me anyway.)

Digression:
I'm also skipping over the part where fiendish animals are not Outsiders, so they technically can't be summoned with planar binding or planar ally in the first place, since the design intent is clear that they should be able to, even if that isn't what the spell says.

Okay, now for the things that just don't work. If I'm a cleric with the Devil subdomain, I get to cast planar binding as a domain spell. But only to get devils. But to contain those, I need magic circle against law, or magic circle against chaos, neither of which I can cast because either I'm LE or my patron is if I have the Devil subdomain. Demon has the same problem. Domain spells you can't use!

Daemons are NE, so you can sort of cheat and use magic circle against chaos or magic circle against law on them as being nonchaotic/nonlawful, so they're only sorta broken.

Interestingly, the Good creature subdomains get planar ally instead of binding and don't have the same issue.


Planar binding's magic circle is meant to be a trap for a uncooperative outsider.

However, in all the examples given, it looks like the evil outsiders would be cooperative because of the similar nature of the characters. At least, cooperative enough not to kill them instantly, since they know they're generally going to get some benefit out of it.

Magic circle against X probably wouldn't be needed.

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The spell text describes the trap as necessary to planar binding's function.

Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell's range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.

To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward. The kind of creature to be bound must be known and stated. If you wish to call a specific individual, you must use that individual's proper name in casting the spell.

I agree with you that the trap should be optional in some cases (mostly for Good characters summoning Celestials.) Summoning a Daemon or Demon without a trap is probably folly no matter your alignment, and summoning a Devil not much smarter (the only respite there is Devils probably enjoy negotiating a binding contract more than just murdering you.)

But from the spell description it very much sounds like the trap is vital to its functioning.

My ideal fix would be replace "To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell," with "The trap created is similar to a magic circle against the specific creatures called," and a tweak to the duration line to say 'calling is instantaneous, trap persists 24 hours/level'.

That would remove the 'two spell' requirement, while still leaning on magic circle's rules text where important. It would also allow removal of words from magic circle that specifies how the two spells interact. It would get rid of the awkward alignment interactions.


It seems like your reading of RAW is correct- the trap is needed for it to function.

As for the summoning of daemons and demons being a horrible idea, you could use their preferred sacrifices to stop them from killing you, or at least occupy them long enough to make them an offer that seems more tempting than just eating you.


Well, just seems to be an unintended side affect of mixing Sor/Wiz spells into domains.

Dark Archive

A sorcerer (or Dark Tapestry oracle, who also gets planar binding as a bonus spell) could use a scroll to fake the magic circle of X, although that just adds a 375 gp. extra charge for use of planar binding, if he doesn't want to blow one of his precious 3rd level slots on magic circle of X.

Why planar ally is outsider only (when so many of the 'planar allies' listed in the gods articles are not outsiders) and planar binding is 'outsiders and elementals only' (aren't elementals already outsiders?) and the infernal bloodline spell is devils and fiendish animals only, I have no idea. There should probably be a subtype 'Ally' that determines that a non-outsider can be called via ally/binding spells, or just a rewrite of the spells so that they can summon extraplanar creatures of any type (and the extraplanar subtype added automatically to celestial/fiendish/resolute/anarchic template creatures).

Spells as domain or bloodline spells that have prerequisite spells seem to be a blind spot. There's instant summons on the Artifice Domain list (which requires arcane mark to use, which clerics don't get) and the original playtest summoner list, which included planar binding spells but not magic circle vs. X spells, etc.

I suppose it just follows that sort of precedent that the Demon, Devil, Inevitable and Protean sub-Domains would offer up planar binding spells that the users most likely won't be able to use, since they won't be able to use the requisite magic circle of evil, law or chaos spells.


Ipslore the Red wrote:
However, in all the examples given, it looks like the evil outsiders would be cooperative because of the similar nature of the characters. At least, cooperative enough not to kill them instantly, since they know they're generally going to get some benefit out of it.

I would disagree with this. I don't think it matters what your alignment is to a devil whom you've trapped and are trying to force your will on. You will taste equally good to him regardless of your moral affiliations, should he manage to free himself and exact his revenge for your affrontery.

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Magic circle against X probably wouldn't be needed.

Riiiiight.


Ross...you've brought up some great points. I agree with samasboy1

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Well, just seems to be an unintended side affect of mixing Sor/Wiz spells into domains.

But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be cleaned up/fixed.

An easy fix would be to remove the need for the actual Magic Circle spells and roll that into Planar Binding itself, perhaps with a material cost attached.

"Casting Planar Binding includes a special version of a Magic Circle Against <alignment>, which requires X gold in materials and functions in all ways as the spell." Or somesuch.


Lord Pendragon wrote:
Ipslore the Red wrote:
However, in all the examples given, it looks like the evil outsiders would be cooperative because of the similar nature of the characters. At least, cooperative enough not to kill them instantly, since they know they're generally going to get some benefit out of it.

I would disagree with this. I don't think it matters what your alignment is to a devil whom you've trapped and are trying to force your will on. You will taste equally good to him regardless of your moral affiliations, should he manage to free himself and exact his revenge for your affrontery.

Quote:
Magic circle against X probably wouldn't be needed.
Riiiiight.

I suggest you think just a little bit about why an evil character would summon an evil outsider. Evil outsiders have agendas of their own. These often overlap with evil characters' agendas, since both have much to do with evil and the spreading thereof.

Evil outsiders enjoy interfering with the Material Plane. Many evil outsiders cannot travel the planes by their own volition. They must rely on something else such as, say, an evil spellcaster casting planar binding.

Furthermore, contracts and agreements often stipulate some sort of benefit to the outsider for its trouble.

Do you understand yet?


Ipslore the Red wrote:
I suggest you think just a little bit about why an evil character would summon an evil outsider. Evil outsiders have agendas of their own. These often overlap with evil characters' agendas, since both have much to do with evil and the spreading thereof.

And while I'm doing that, I suggest you think just a little bit about the nature of demons and devils, and how tolerant they are of anyone, let alone mortals they likely consider inferior, imposing their will on them. It isn't about what the demon might get or be able to do, it's about dominance and control.

Planar Binding isn't a "hello, my name is Bob the Wizard, welcome to the Prime Material Plane! How was your trip? Would you consider perhaps doing what I ask?"

Planar Binding is "I am the mighty Bob the Wizard, and you will bend to my will--demon--or I will break you!" yadda yadda

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Evil outsiders enjoy interfering with the Material Plane. Many evil outsiders cannot travel the planes by their own volition. They must rely on something else such as, say, an evil spellcaster casting planar binding.
Sure. But once they're here, they are free to do whatever "interfering" they like, regardless of whether they've eaten the person who tried to bind them or not.
Planar Binding wrote:
If it breaks loose, it can flee or attack you.

There's nothing there to suggest it has to go home immediately. It can eat you, then go about its "interfering" on a full stomach. That's why you need to compel it to serve you by trapping it, and force it to agree to a service in exchange for its freedom.

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Furthermore, contracts and agreements often stipulate some sort of benefit to the outsider for its trouble.
The wizard can choose to try and offer some benefit for the outsider to get it to agree to his terms. Because it is trapped the demon has to consider this. If it isn't trapped, for instance, if there were no Magic Circle Against Evil holding it imprisoned, it would be in a much stronger bargaining position. And once you had given it what it wanted, would be free to eat you regardless.
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Do you understand yet?

You seem to be under the impression that being insulting adds weight to your arguments. It does not.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Ipslore - Even if you assume a summoned fiend doesn't immediately attack you, most of them can greater teleport at will, and they've gotten 90% of what they want just from getting a ride to the material plane. Without a magic circle and dimensional anchor, they have no reason to negotiate with you instead of just nipping off to do whatever they want.

That's the difference between planar binding and planar ally. A planar ally is a servant of a common divine power who is being friendly, rather than being compelled.

(Related to that, I think that while ally should allow non-outsiders, the restriction should stay on binding: myth is full of the idea of binding demons and genies (and to a lesser extent angels) to a magician's will. That's less true of things like Cloud Giant clerics that might otherwise make good planar allies.)


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And this is another fine example of why alignment is F'd up.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Zhayne wrote:
And this is another fine example of why alignment is F'd up.

Like many human mistakes it consists of a number of decisions that each look reasonable on their own, but when added together are a huge mess.


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Solution I sometimes use. Sort of, at least

Binding Circle:
School Abjuration; Level Cleric/Oracle 3; Druid 3; Sorcerer/Wizard 3; Summoner 3; Witch 3
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (a circle made of mixture of powdered silver, cold iron, rare herbs and salt; wax and chalk used to draw diagrams)
Duration 1 day/level (D)

Binding circle works as inward-focused, alignment-independent magic circle against evil, serving as a trap for conjured extraplanar entity of any alignment.

The caster may spend additional time drawing trapping diagram within the circle as per regular magic circle.

Binding Circle, Greater:
School Abjuration; Level Cleric/Oracle 6; Druid 6; Sorcerer/Wizard 6; Summoner 6; Witch 6
Casting Time 1 hour
Components V, S, M (a circle made of mixture of powdered silver, cold iron, rare herbs and salt; wax and chalk used to draw diagrams; alchemical or herbal incenses or candles)

Greater binding circle works as inward-focused, alignment-independent magic circle against evil, serving as a trap for conjured extraplanar entity of any alignment, with an added dimensional anchor effect.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Does binding circle have any use besides use with planar binding?

It seems like it would be simpler to just merge the circle into planar binding itself.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Set wrote:

A sorcerer (or Dark Tapestry oracle, who also gets planar binding as a bonus spell) could use a scroll to fake the magic circle of X, although that just adds a 375 gp. extra charge for use of planar binding, if he doesn't want to blow one of his precious 3rd level slots on magic circle of X.

Also, it isn't just requiring spending a spell known (or cash for a scroll/wand/whatever), it's for a spell opposed to what the caster would normally be using. A Good (PC) Sorcerer might actually want to spend a spell known on magic circle against evil, but definitely won't want to spend on on magic circle against good so he can start calling Angels. Likewise, and Evil (NPC/Villainous) Sorcerer won't normally have magic circle against evil to start calling Demons, even if he had against good already.

I suppose a PC Infernal sorcerer might have magic circle against evil, since he's a PC and its handy, which would work nicely when he calls a Devil (since he just can't call something of a more agreeable alignment).

Personally, though, I prefer to give sorcerers tightly-themed lists that make sense as the kind of thing their bloodline would unlock, which means an Infernal or Abyssal sorcerer taking magic circle against evil kind of bothers me, no matter the character's actual alignment.

(Likewise, I don't think a Fire Elemental sorcerer should know Cold or Water spells.)

Sovereign Court

Oops, looks like we missed some stuff when we were doing the alpha and beta playtests.

Shows how often we're evil and try to summon stuff.


Well, evil summoners have a reason to have Magic Circle vs. Evil.

Evil things attack other evil things all the time. Part of being evil. In fact, even for an evil spellcaster, Prot v. Evil is probably more useful than Prot v. Good.

But Good doesn't usually attack Good. So a good spellcaster having Magic Circle v. Good would probably be just for calling.

Dark Archive

I think the best solution would to make the devil subdomain grant planar ally instead of binding.

And sorcerers make the best planar binders, due to their awesome charisma scores, and their ability to just keep spamming the binding spell until the target fails their will save.

And as someone who is playing a LN Infernal Sorceror who binds Devils, Magic circle vs evil is still pretty useful otherwise, while the Protection from good that the bloodline gives you has never been cast. Evil(ish) things often have to fight other evil things


Sorry to necro, but there's some very interesting stuff here.

1) Definitely some broken bits with the infernal bloodline. Bloodline design generally has not been one of the game's brilliant bits.

2) I have absolutely no problem with the Chaotic Evil sorceror casting Magic Circles against Chaos or Evil in order to summon the demon. That makes sense both in game terms and thematically. The evil caster struggling to contain the evil monster is a trope that goes back to Robert E. Howard and beyond.

3) Yes, sorcerors are kind of ganked in the sense that they need to take multiple spells known. The clear intent of Planar Binding is that you need at least two spells, Binding and Circle, plus a third -- Dimensional Anchor -- if the creature can teleport. Oh, plus a Spellcraft check to draw the circle plus whatever other protective spells you want to cast and maybe also Agonize and Dismissal. The designers obviously wanted to make calling and bindng a sort of mini-game within the game involving multiple castings, instead of having you just throw a Summons-style spell and have an outsider pop out of the slot.

So, yes, hard cheese for the sorceror: she either has to invest a painful number of spells known, or spend a lot of money on scrolls and wands. But on the other hand, this is balanced by the fact that sorcerors have high Cha, which is needed for the opposed Cha check. While the 10 Cha wizard may have to struggle for days of opposed checks to get the dang outsider to come around, the 20 Cha sorceror snaps her fingers and has a deal toute suite. That very roughly balances IMO. (I don't think they planned it that way, but still.)

Also, at the highest levels -- 17 and up -- the sorceror has enough spells known that this is much less of an issue. It's less painful to take magic circle and dimensional anchor when they're 1 out of 7 spells you know at that level, instead of 1 out of three or four.

Doug M.


I also think the designers wanted to balance Planar Ally and Planar Binding. At that, I think they failed. The high cost of Planar Ally makes it really unattractive except at the highest levels. -- Yes, I know the bit about how you can get a discount by asking the creature to do something that is "strongly aligned with its ethos". You're not always going to manage that, and even with the discount it's still dang expensive. Furthermore, you are restricted only to creatures of your own alignment that your god chooses to send you, while Binding can reach out across the multiverse to grab the right outsider for the job, alignment be damned. Mechanically, there's just no comparison. As icing on the cake, the "strongly aligned with its ethos" language is vague enough to almost guarantee a bout of special pleading every time it's cast -- "Surely the Goddess of Love and Mercy sees that it's in her best long-term interests for me to kill these monsters and take their stuff!"

The game tries to balance this by making bound outsiders cranky, forcing you to perform an elaborate ritual with multiple spells followed by one or more opposed Cha checks. Alas for balance: with a modest amount of preparation and planning ahead an arcane caster of 10th level or higher can tip the odds far in his favor, making Planar Binding a very safe and reliable spell as long as he doesn't get too ambitious with it.

Doug M.


And a final thought: although the designers probably didn't intend it that way, the Infernal Bloodline's specialized form of Planar Binding -- "Devils and creatures with the fiendish template only" -- is potentially quite powerful. You can't normally summon things with the fiendish template, since they're not outsiders. This special version unlocks that. And it's fiendish *creatures*, not fiendish animals. Which means that under RAW you could slap the fiendish template on any nongood creature of up to 12 HD and then announce that you're summoning it. This opens up all kinds of crazy-ass options: fiendish fey, fiendish dragons, fiendish vermin and plants and oozes. Giving SR, DR and a once/day Smite Good to creatures that don't normally get it can be pretty powerful.

At higher levels this gradually fades -- an 18th level sorceror isn't likely to get much benefit from summoning a creature with maximum 12 HD, even with the fiendish template. But from 13th to about 16th level, it's pretty sweet.

Doug M.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Sorry to necro, but there's some very interesting stuff here.

1) Definitely some broken bits with the infernal bloodline. Bloodline design generally has not been one of the game's brilliant bits.

Quote:
2) I have absolutely no problem with the Chaotic Evil sorceror casting Magic Circles against Chaos or Evil in order to summon the demon. That makes sense both in game terms and thematically. The evil caster struggling to contain the evil monster is a trope that goes back to Robert E. Howard and beyond.

Oh, I agree that struggling to contain the evil monster is a trope that planar binding is trying to serve - I just think it odd that one has to cast a [Good] spell to cast an [Evil] spell quite odd. It makes calling demons weird and adds an odd moral ambiguity to Good casters trying to bind Angels. I guess trying to bend a paragon of Good to your will is never going to be all happiness and rainbows, and arcane magic has always (deliberately) worked better with Evil than Good, but its still weird.

If the magic circle spells didn't have alignment descriptors, then I wouldn't find it weird. I'd still be bothered that the Evil spellcaster would want two different magic circle spells: against evil for calling stuff, and against good to keep pesky paladins out of his stuff, but it wouldn't feel as contradictory.

Aside:
I kind of want to make the detect alignment spells and magic circle and protection from spells into a single spell. You don't have to learn protection from fire and protection from cold as two different spells.

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3) Yes, sorcerors are kind of ganked in the sense that they need to take multiple spells known. The clear intent of Planar Binding is that you need at least two spells, Binding and Circle, plus a third -- Dimensional Anchor -- if the creature can teleport. Oh, plus a Spellcraft check to draw the circle plus whatever other protective spells you want to cast and maybe also Agonize and Dismissal. The designers obviously wanted to make calling and bindng a sort of mini-game within the game involving multiple castings, instead of having you just throw a Summons-style spell and have an outsider pop out of the slot.

I think that because this particular mini-game was designed several editions ago, when a wizard needing to prepare different spells on Binding Day was less of an issue than a Sorcerer trying to change their spells known.

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So, yes, hard cheese for the sorceror: she either has to invest a painful number of spells known, or spend a lot of money on scrolls and wands. But on the other hand, this is balanced by the fact that sorcerors have high Cha, which is needed for the opposed Cha check. While the 10 Cha wizard may have to struggle for days of opposed checks to get the dang outsider to come around, the 20 Cha sorceror snaps her fingers and has a deal toute suite. That very roughly balances IMO. (I don't think they planned it that way, but still.)

I agree (bolded for emphasis).

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Also, at the highest levels -- 17 and up -- the sorceror has enough spells known that this is much less of an issue. It's less painful to take magic circle and dimensional anchor when they're 1 out of 7 spells you know at that level, instead of 1 out of three or four.
Doug M.

The ARG favored class bonus also takes some of the sting out, since you can grab the magic circle and dimensional anchor when they are no longer your highest and most relevant spell levels.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

And a final thought: although the designers probably didn't intend it that way, the Infernal Bloodline's specialized form of Planar Binding -- "Devils and creatures with the fiendish template only" -- is potentially quite powerful. You can't normally summon things with the fiendish template, since they're not outsiders. This special version unlocks that. And it's fiendish *creatures*, not fiendish animals. Which means that under RAW you could slap the fiendish template on any nongood creature of up to 12 HD and then announce that you're summoning it. This opens up all kinds of crazy-ass options: fiendish fey, fiendish dragons, fiendish vermin and plants and oozes. Giving SR, DR and a once/day Smite Good to creatures that don't normally get it can be pretty powerful.

At higher levels this gradually fades -- an 18th level sorceror isn't likely to get much benefit from summoning a creature with maximum 12 HD, even with the fiendish template. But from 13th to about 16th level, it's pretty sweet.

Doug M.

I think that is a misreading. It seems to me that the intent was to limit you to devils and generically evil creatures, while forgetting that in Pathfinder the fiendish template no longer makes the creature into an Outsider.

Dark Archive

Regarding Infernal Bloodline's version of planar binding;

My take on that, would be that by 'creatures with the fiendish template' it's referring to the standard fiendish template animals and vermin that you could conjure up with summon monster, on that list, and not that this opens up the possibility of calling up fiendish template versions of *anything you want* (like fiendish pugwampis or fiendish lantern archons or fiendish shadows or fiendish clay golems).

(Although, regardless of specific wording or assumed intent, if functioning as a GM, I'd handwave some leeway for using this specific spell to call up hell hounds and hellcats and nightmares, which are not fiendish template anything *or* devils, but would seem perfectly thematic for this purpose.)


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Ross Byers wrote:


I think that is a misreading. It seems to me that the intent was to limit you to devils and generically evil creatures, while forgetting that in Pathfinder the fiendish template no longer makes the creature into an Outsider.

Is "misreading" what you mean to say here? Because it seems to me that we're reading it right -- they just wrote it wrong.

I note in passing that this also mitigates the Dimensional Anchor issue for sorcerors, since the fiendish template doesn't give creatures the power to teleport.

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My take on that, would be that by 'creatures with the fiendish template' it's referring to the standard fiendish template animals and vermin that you could conjure up with summon monster, on that list, and not that this opens up the possibility of calling up fiendish template versions of *anything you want* (like fiendish pugwampis or fiendish lantern archons or fiendish shadows or fiendish clay golems).

I see the sense of what you're saying, but the RAW doesn't say any particular sort of fiendish creature... it just says fiendish creature, full stop.

While I do think this is a mistake on Paizo's part, it's probably not a very big deal. It's certainly nice, and opens up some interesting options for the Infernal sorceror, but I don't think it's really game-bending. (Especially given that the Infernal bloodline is, mechanically speaking, one of the weaker ones.) Is being able to summon fiendish creatures really that much better than being able to summon non-devil outsiders, like everyone else can? And, as noted above, it's only really good for three or four levels -- before too long, the sorceror reaches a point where being able to conjure a creature with 12 or less HD just isn't very helpful, even if it does have the Fiendish template.

Doug M.


I have a number of issues regarding planar binding, that aren't necessarily related to the mechanics.

For starters: say you are a CG Wizard... if you bind an Azata, haven't you really committed the absolute worst crime you can commit against it??? and well, against your own nature???

In a way, isn't that true if you are LG or LE and binding a powerful archon or devil? You are upsetting very clear plans and hierarchies for a momentary need.

The spell requires a lot of DM adjudication and allowance just on basic principle. It almost seems like you should have to have had some kind of contact with the outsider prior to the first binding for it to have any possibility of success.


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It's an interesting question! Personally, I don't think a CG caster would go in for planar binding much. It's mechanically permissible, but seems a harsh thematic mismatch. But... would a CG caster be cool with using Charm on someone? Okay, how about Dominate? Does the alignment of the target make a difference? CG bards are constantly throwing Suggestions around; how does that fit in?

I definitely think it's not a problem for a Lawful Evil character. You're recruiting this creature for YOUR needs, and giving it clear orders. If it didn't want to be snatched off to another plane, it should have invested in Iron Will. Yes, you may be causing some minor and temporary inconvenience in some tiny corner of Hell, but it's far more important that YOU get the protection and service that YOU need. After all, one day you're going to be epic, mythic, and spreading the unholy red light of Asmodeus all across this pathetic excuse for a kingdom. So clearly your safety and prosperity are FAR more important than anything that fiend might have been doing.

Doug M.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Indeed. The LE ethos is that the weak suffer to serve the strong, and if that Outsider was strong, then you wouldn't be able to bind it so easily.

Especially if you're a full on Diabolist or Asmodean: Devils are made to serve. That is what they are for.


I finally tracked down the thread where a similar thing came up before,
discussing the Qadira Player's Companion (the very first 'Pathfinder RPG' product, in fact):
SKR in fact weighed in that if your intent is to use Planar Binding in a 'consensual' manner, dropping the requirement for Magic Circle (and the Saving Throw) is a good idea. Of course, by RAW that doesn't work. Given the other scenarios raised here by Ross, I think Errata to achieve that is justified.

Please hit FAQ on the top post if you haven't already done so.

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I still really think the circle should be built into planar binding, because otherwise the name is misleading.

As it stands, without a magic circle, the spell is more of an inverted plane shift: something comes from another plane to your current location. It isn't bound in location (because there is no circle) and it isn't bound in action (because without the circle you can't negotiate.)

It's weird because it supplies its own Compulsion effect, but only if you get the outsider to agree to it. It would almost make more sense to break it down into two spells: planar calling and a geas-like effect called bind outsider. Because you're already having to build a Rube Goldberg machine of spells to use it magic circle, dimensional anchor, planar binding, what's one more?

And in that case, you could use bind outsider on demons and stuff you encounter already on the material plane, kind of like hijacking undead with Command Undead. That could create interesting situations where PCs are trying to get a demon to do stuff for them, and it wants to betray them, instead of the current rules blind spot that comes up because most PCs are Good and will use planar binding to call Neutral or Good outsiders instead.


Ross Byers wrote:

That's the difference between planar binding and planar ally. A planar ally is a servant of a common divine power who is being friendly, rather than being compelled.

(Related to that, I think that while ally should allow non-outsiders, the restriction should stay on binding: myth is full of the idea of binding demons and genies (and to a lesser extent angels) to a magician's will. That's less true of things like Cloud Giant clerics that might otherwise make good planar allies.)

Just wanted to agree that ally should likely work on non-outsiders. For example, Star Monarchs are described as sacred to Desna and able to be called by her priests, but they're Magical Beasts. Lots of things exist like that in the deity articles, but hopefully the upcoming Inner Sea Gods will fix that!

Ross Byers wrote:

My ideal fix would be replace "To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell," with "The trap created is similar to a magic circle against the specific creatures called," and a tweak to the duration line to say 'calling is instantaneous, trap persists 24 hours/level'.

That would remove the 'two spell' requirement, while still leaning on magic circle's rules text where important. It would also allow removal of words from magic circle that specifies how the two spells interact. It would get rid of the awkward alignment interactions.

Also, this seems like an appropriate fix for now!

Set mentioned an Ally subtype possibility above; maybe that's worth looking into?


Personally, I can get behind the idea of consensual Planar Binding.

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aceDiamond wrote:
Personally, I can get behind the idea of consensual Planar Binding.

Consensual planar binding is what the planar ally spell is for.


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Ross Byers wrote:

I still really think the circle should be built into planar binding, because otherwise the name is misleading.

As it stands, without a magic circle, the spell is more of an inverted plane shift: something comes from another plane to your current location. It isn't bound in location (because there is no circle) and it isn't bound in action (because without the circle you can't negotiate.)

It's weird because it supplies its own Compulsion effect, but only if you get the outsider to agree to it. It would almost make more sense to break it down into two spells: planar calling and a geas-like effect called bind outsider. Because you're already having to build a Rube Goldberg machine of spells to use it magic circle, dimensional anchor, planar binding, what's one more?

It is sensible idea. I think that planar calling should be merged with planar ally - you call an outsider, which might or might not be friendly and opt to bind it if you are not feeling like being nice to what you conjured.

Quote:
And in that case, you could use bind outsider on demons and stuff you encounter already on the material plane, kind of like hijacking undead with Command Undead. That could create interesting situations where PCs are trying to get a demon to do stuff for them, and it wants to betray them, instead of the current rules blind spot that comes up because most PCs are Good and will use planar binding to call Neutral or Good outsiders instead.

Assuming there would be some sort of advantage to using bind outsider instead of a charm monster, geas and at higher levels dominate monster.


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Ross Byers wrote:
aceDiamond wrote:
Personally, I can get behind the idea of consensual Planar Binding.
Consensual planar binding is what the planar ally spell is for.

Which is problematic, because wizards or sorcerers can't cast planar ally normally.

Dark Archive

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Sometimes I think that summoning devils (etc.) shouldn't be a spell, so much as an incantation that *anybody* can use (since devils like being summoned, and would be all sorts of okay with non-spellcasters being able to call them up, and, more importantly, lack any sort of ability to put them down again...).


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Set wrote:

Sometimes I think that summoning devils (etc.) shouldn't be a spell, so much as an incantation that *anybody* can use (since devils like being summoned, and would be all sorts of okay with non-spellcasters being able to call them up, and, more importantly, lack any sort of ability to put them down again...).

Wait... You mean that it does not work that way in the first place?!

Spoiler:
I GM it that rituals similar to incantations can be used to contact and sometimes actually conjure various outsiders or fey.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Drejk wrote:
Assuming there would be some sort of advantage to using bind outsider instead of a charm monster, geas and at higher levels dominate monster.

A geas or a mark of justice can be broken if you're willing to suffer the consequences. I'm imagining a spell that compels obedience in a semi-unbreakable way (i.e. Will save daily, not the ability to arbitrarily backstab with poor timing), but doesn't allow the same fine-grained control of dominate.

And only affects Outsiders, since being magically compelled to do things is part of what makes an Outsider an Outsider.


Ross Byers wrote:
aceDiamond wrote:
Personally, I can get behind the idea of consensual Planar Binding.
Consensual planar binding is what the planar ally spell is for.

Except that is Cleric/Oracle-only, yet Paizo has published the Daivrat which is supposed to be compatable with consensual/friendly Djinii relations, whether based on Arcane or Divine.

I'm OK with the Circle being built in (as an option, not needed if you're aiming for consensual),
as-is it is adding functionality to the Circle specifically (to function as a trap) which seems extraneous to the broader function of the spell.
How the hell do you adjudicate that if the target is Immune to Abjuration? (the normal school of Magic Circle)
We aren't really caring about the normal effects of (Abjuration) Magic Circle, but the special effects of it as augmented by (Calling) Planar Binding.
If it's being built in to Planar Binding, then it can reference Magic Circle re: how you build the Circle if you wish to use one.

Sorcerors should be BETTER Planar Binders/etc, because their CHA should help with related CHA checks,
which Planar Binding invokes twice, once for an explicitly CHA-based Caster Level check, and for opposed CHA check.
Needing to rely on many Spells Known or Scrolls/Wands just seems overly penalizing for the Class that should be better at it.

Dark Archive

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Consensual planar bondage just screams Kyton, and leads inevitably to Hellraiser...


So, two new spells.

Combining planar ally + planar binding to create a planar calling spell (hopefully available on both cleric/oracle and sorcerer/wizard spell lists), that has a built in but optional magic circle effect specific to the creature called.

Along with a bind outsider spell which is like a geas and compels obedience in a semi-unbreakable way (Will save daily), but that doesn't allow absolute control like dominate spells.

While I really like the idea of this, it seems like it would be a significant and fairly large errata, and way above what Ross suggested with the simple editing of the wording of planar binding to include a built-in magic circle.

I still wouldn't mind seeing it expanded to include non-outsiders, or having creatures that are associated with a deity having an [ally] subtype that allows them to be called. Then again, saying specifically that they can be called with such spells where they're mentioned would suffice as well.

Also, the witch doesn't have planar ally or planar binding on her spell list; only the Dimensional Occultist archetype have it listed as patron spells. Seems a bit odd, considering the historical myths and flavor of the witch summoning up and dealing with fiendish forces.


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I would happily go with having planar call(ing) spell and having the option of combining magic circle and dimensional anchor to trap the conjured entity and attempt to force it into service instead of peaceful negotiations. Or maybe just make trapping an alternate function of dimensional anchor spell.


Clerics/Oracles aren't supposed to get access to Planar Binding under normal circumstances.
Allowing Planar Binding without a Magic Circle Trap and Will Save is not the same as Planar Ally.
Planar Ally is a different set of creatures, and they automatically are interested in serving you because of your Deity/Divine connection.
Using Planar Binding without a trap relies on personally persuading the creature that was called.

If you insist on converting every trope associated with every historical connotation of "Witch" you have a vastly broad list of powers.
If you want the powers associated with one specific trope, you can take that Patron or Archetype.


Quandary wrote:

Clerics/Oracles aren't supposed to get access to Planar Binding under normal circumstances.

Allowing Planar Binding without a Magic Circle Trap and Will Save is not the same as Planar Ally.
Planar Ally is a different set of creatures, and they automatically are interested in serving you because of your Deity/Divine connection.
Using Planar Binding without a trap relies on personally persuading the creature that was called.

The planar call[ing] spell mentioned would replace both planar ally and planar binding, if I'm understanding things correctly. The creatures called would likely be friendly to you if you have shared interests (like in planar ally), or they may be less than friendly and thus require convincing (like in planar binding). No more planar ally or planar binding, and instead the planar call[ing] spell on both the cleric/oracle and sorcerer/wizard spell lists. Hence why I said it would be a fairly large errata; again, if I'm understanding things correctly.

Quandary wrote:
If you insist on converting every trope associated with every historical connotation of "Witch" you have a vastly broad list of powers. If you want the powers associated with one specific trope, you can take that Patron or Archetype.

Off-topic:

Spoiler:
Did some digging, and seems like the issue was actually noticed by James, who created the Dimensional Occultist archetype in response. I'd still consider planar binding iconic enough to give to the standard witch, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I'm glad it's an official option with that archetype, though. An easy thing to house-rule, in any case! :)

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Varisian Wanderer wrote:


The planar call[ing] spell mentioned would replace both planar ally and planar binding, if I'm understanding things correctly. The creatures called would likely be friendly to you if you have shared interests (like in planar ally), or they may be less than friendly and thus require convincing (like in planar binding). No more planar ally or planar binding, and instead the planar call[ing] spell on both the cleric/oracle and sorcerer/wizard spell lists. Hence why I said it would be a fairly large errata; again, if I'm understanding things correctly.

That was my idea, at least. For balance reasons, you should still probably need some way to win the creature's favor: either cash and diplomacy (like planar ally), or intimidation and mental compulsion (a la planar binding, but requiring you to put it together yourself from other spells and/or skill checks.)

Dark Archive

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Quandary wrote:
If you insist on converting every trope associated with every historical connotation of "Witch" you have a vastly broad list of powers.

And yet, making a Pact with an otherworldly Patron is kind of the PF Witches entire point, not just a random witchy trope like flying broomsticks or cooking children in ovens, making summoning / binding / calling sorts of magic far more appropriate to the PF Witch class than less game-specific 'witchy' stuff like Cackle or 'bake people into cookies.'

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The witch has a couple of odd duck cases... such as the patron who grants planar binding spells, but the magic circle spells that are not part of the witch's spell list.


The last 20 or so posts deal with the fact that the Planar spells, as currently written, are at best a kludgy mess and at worst kinda broken. I firmly agree. I got into this topic when I started writing a guide to the Diabolist, and it turns out to have complications on its complications. The Planar spells are inherited from earlier editions -- I'm pretty sure the first versions go back to 1e. (They didn't make a lot of sense there, either.)

That said, I kinda like the mini-game of Planar Binding, kludgy as it is. You have to use a bunch of different spells, there are multiple rolls, things can go wrong in different ways... while it breaks down if you look at it hard (okay, not that hard) it has a feel to it that I like. Calling up a demon shouldn't be simple. Maybe it shouldn't be complicated in this particular way, but it should be flavorful and have multiple failure modes.

Mechanically, my current biggest issue with Planar Binding is that it's turning out to be very hackable. If you restrict yourself to creatures with a CR 2-3 below your level, by the low teen levels you can call and bind large numbers of creatures with a very high chance of success -- either enough to stock a dungeon, or to make a small army around you whenever you enter a dungeon. I don't think it's quite game-breaking, but it's definitely way unbalanced.

Doug M.


The Dimensional Occultist is an odd archetype. You'd think from the name... but no; in fact it's not at all relevant to calling and binding. AFAICT there aren't any archetypes that help much here.

Another oddity I noticed: the aasimar makes a much better Diabolist (or arcane caller generally) than the tiefling. If you want to play a character built around calling and binding, and you're really minimaxing, play a peri-blooded aasimar (+2 Int and +2 Cha)with either celestial crusader or exalted resistance.

Doug M.

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