I am still pretty new to PF. I like to play with my kids. So my 9 year old son does research and comes to me with questions. His latest, "Dad, if I ever get a wish, can I wish for a second bloodline?" He is crazy about his elf sorcerer, absolutely loves the class and everything about it...and he wants a second bloodline.
So researching it I found Eldritch Heritage feats that give some of the bloodline powers. I don't think a wish would be worth 3 feats. Thoughts?
I found crossblooded archetype. I think it would be way beyond the power of a wish to grant the bonuses of both bloodlines (this is not how crossblooded works, I know). Would a wish be worth granting either/or choices of two bloodlines--essentially crossblooded without the penalties?
Maybe I should take a different approach altogether, just let him have it (powers from both bloodlines) if he ever gets a wish. He's 9. There is no optimization going on except for some coaching from me (and my knowledge is quite limited, I haven't even bothered to read the rules on AoO or flanking yet). Just let him have what he thinks is fun since that is what playing games is for.
I would appreciate some advice.
Couldn't you just let him "wish" for a new bloodline and then make him use Ultimate Campaign's downtime system to retrain for the Crossblooded archetype?
go with whats fun just make it a magic item or some thing it can grow with him
If it's fun, just let it go, as long no-one feels overshadowed.
If you're worried about too much power, consider letting him have one bloodline power he qualifies for but didn't take with cross-blooded for each casting of wish.
Alternatively, work with him for a custom bloodline.
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Maybe I should take a different approach altogether, just let him have it (powers from both bloodlines) if he ever gets a wish. He's 9.
Go with this. 20 years from now he won't remember any of the rules and probably none of the adventures. He'll just remember how much fun he had with his Dad.
Maybe I should take a different approach altogether, just let him have it (powers from both bloodlines) if he ever gets a wish. He's 9.Go with this. 20 years from now he won't remember any of the rules and probably none of the adventures. He'll just remember how much fun he had with his Dad.
This is very very very true. Some of the wisest words I've read on these boards recently.
For a kid...I'd roll with it and let him have fun...
For an experienced player...I'd remind him "had" is past tense and say you did long ago but now you have what you have...
Dang , past tense has blown more wishes than I can remember.
Maybe I should take a different approach altogether, just let him have it (powers from both bloodlines) if he ever gets a wish. He's 9.Go with this. 20 years from now he won't remember any of the rules and probably none of the adventures. He'll just remember how much fun he had with his Dad.
What he said. Rules are there to help make it more fun for everyone. If you know something would be more fun, you don't need rules.
By the way, in case you care -- and you shouldn't -- the official rules on wish come out to "a wish can do anything if the GM thinks it's cool."
Maybe I should take a different approach altogether, just let him have it (powers from both bloodlines) if he ever gets a wish. He's 9.Go with this. 20 years from now he won't remember any of the rules and probably none of the adventures. He'll just remember how much fun he had with his Dad.
Y'know, the jaded GM in me was actually going to say that he should allow the crossblooded, but say no to anything beyond that, just to get the kid used to hearing no sometimes from the GM. But this got me right in the feels and reminded me of when I started learning D&D with my dad at age 8.
I say let him have both bloodlines. If I can have Batman the Half-Orc Barbarian, he can have two bloodlines :)
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Maybe I should take a different approach altogether, just let him have it (powers from both bloodlines) if he ever gets a wish. He's 9.Go with this. 20 years from now he won't remember any of the rules and probably none of the adventures. He'll just remember how much fun he had with his Dad.
This plus infinity. Pendragon sir you have won the internets. Here is your trophy. ~Hands Pendragon biggest trophy ever.
Man...I'm touched...sincerely so. Thank you to each of you for your responses. There is some very sound advice here.
retrain for the Crossblooded archetype
Nice idea, make him earn it...both in game and out--learning more rules (and me too :-) ).
20 years from now...
Right on, thanks for reminding me.
work with him for a custom bloodline
Super good idea, let the kid exercise some imagination and learn to establish his own boundaries.
By the way, in case you care -- and you shouldn't -- the official rules on wish come out to "a wish can do anything if the GM thinks it's cool."
Cool. Glad to hear that. Not sure yet if I care.
Batman the Half-Orc Barbarian
Dude...that sounds like a good story.
I am going to work with him on this and see what he wants to do. He is old enough to be reasonable and if we identify how powerful this will make him (both bloodlines) and that there should be a comparable price for it, I'm sure there is something we can come up with. He definitely wants it bad and, who knows, maybe the cost he comes up with will be more severe than anything I could come have up with (I have found that this is occasionally true when I have my kids come up with their own punishments for misbehavior).
Thanks again. This community is pretty amazing.
Maybe I should take a different approach altogether, just let him have it (powers from both bloodlines) if he ever gets a wish. He's 9.Go with this. 20 years from now he won't remember any of the rules and probably none of the adventures. He'll just remember how much fun he had with his Dad.
As a young man who should be a father within a few years and also lost his dad at a young age, this was very meaningful to me.
Pendragon is 100% spot on. Let it ride. Have fun.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with giving the characters unusual powers or granting progression by means other than the normal experience system. Granting unstructured bonuses does mean that you need to do more work on your end if you want to keep things balanced/fair/even-handed, but that's not impossible and the analysis can be very informative on a variety of levels.
For my purposes, what I do is track the effective CR of every party member. Whenever they gain a benefit (or detriment) outside of the normal structured progression of gaining XP and level-appropriate loot, consider how it might impact their CR. This will give you a benchmark of how much deviation in power there is within your party. So long as the spread isn't very, you're probably fine. If one player gets significantly more powerful than the others, you may want to step in.
What you choose to do from there is up to you. I'd say an extra bloodline is about a +1 CR shift. That's well-within tolerance; optimization is far more significant a factor than a mere +1 CR. You may want to give the other players comparable benefits, and the benchmark of 1 CR will help you figure out what is appropriate.
My group consists of me and my brother as adults, and five of our children ages 9 - 13. One of the players has changed her character class between sessions twice now, and race once. Two of the players have changed classes once each. Now everyone is happy with their characters. Sure, we could have said "too bad, start over" but the healing potions, XP, and money magically transfer to the new character. For most of the kids this is their first character, so it is hard to pick one that they wanted to play initially.
My brother's daughter was first an Elf wizard, but she saw that my Gnome had a high Charisma, and realized that the Druid had a higher Charisma than her Wizard, so she remade her character into a Human Sorceress. But she liked the Druid's wolf. Now she kept the Sorceress' stats and she is a Summoner. I figure that it is likely that her Eidolon will change between sessions. :)
The funniest part about her character switching is that the mini she was using looks a lot like Brittney Spears. We joked that when she became the beautiful sorceress that she traded her brains for beauty. It is also funny that she pulled off her ugly Elf mask to become a beautiful Human.
I'd probably just allow him to retrain on the spot, or just say "yes" and mentally count it as some portion of permanent "treasure."
And really, if this revolves around a found wish, I might just say yes. It would be different if the PCs were using wish spells to double up all their class features.
I agree that you should give it to him, but don't "just give it to him." Weave it in as part of the story. Which second bloodline does he want? If it's something like draconic, you could set up a scene where he comes across a mortally wounded silver dragon, and in its' dying breath it grants him the bloodline powers, but gives him the quest of "slaying my enemy, the evil barbarian king who gave me this mortal wound." Something like that.
Maybe the wish could create a crown that bestows the second bloodline if you wear it continuously for 24 hours.
... that's actually a really good idea for a magic item.
Maybe I should take a different approach altogether, just let him have it (powers from both bloodlines) if he ever gets a wish. He's 9.Go with this. 20 years from now he won't remember any of the rules and probably none of the adventures. He'll just remember how much fun he had with his Dad.
To throw in some extra info, one of my friends (and GMs) built his ENTIRE campaign setting up around his treasured PCs that he created in his older brother's games. When he was about 9 or 10.
You'd be amazed how far little things like that go. :-P
"Dad, if I ever get another wish, can I wish for a third bloodline?"
We all know where this is headed!
I agree, there should be real consequences. Each bloodline should give him another set of parents.
let him retrain into crossblooded (as was suggested and such earlier in the thread), if for some reason he wants a third bloodline later, have him grab the eldritch heritage feat line for the relevant one.
Anyone can rule 0 anything for a home game. Since your asking on the forums I will assume your asking for what the rules allow.
Ideally, wish spells are not powerful enough to permanently grant class features or feats.
Otherwise anyone able to CAST wish would be a godlike character within months of being able to do so.
Nothing wrong with teaching him the right rules from the get go.
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"Dad, if I ever get another wish, can I wish for a third bloodline?"
We all know where this is headed!
Heheh, Avatar-1 you prove to be prophetic, I had him go do some research and then,
"Dad, I want Celestial and Starsoul...and Stormborn."
"What?"
"...I want three bloodlines!"
Was really funny, especially since you called it. Basically he has Shiny Syndrome, whenever he sees something new and cool he wants it. He hasn't even looked at all of the bloodlines yet.
So, there's no way I'm going to do 3. But we can work out a double bloodline. He's going to have to make the hard choice of which two he really wants (gonna drive him nutso, heh).
We are in the middle of a campaign where I will likely reward them with a wish when they complete it (just for the fun of having a wish). So if he uses the wish for a second bloodline then that will open the way. Then he will basically have to quest for each of the bloodline powers (they won't manifest automatically, nor will they come easily). Should be great fun. Especially if I can weave some other story arcs into it. Man, I love this game.
Again, I really appreciate everyone's feedback here. The concept of "earning" the second bloodline would have never occurred to me, but several of you made suggestions that helped solidify a reasonable way forward, and one that will certainly catalyze much more fun scenarios. Kudos.
In the vein of what you are looking for.I use this to take advantage of two bloodlines on a PFS sorcerer. It really depends on what you want to keep if it will work for him.
Wow, that Ampoule of False Blood is pretty awesome too. There's so many possibilities.