Two-Weapon Warrior + Vital Strike

[Zotsune]

At level 9 the Two-Weapon Warrior gets the ability

Doublestrike:

At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 2.

Does this mean that it can be used with

Vital Strike:

When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage.

and attack with both weapons?

If so then add 2 levels of Titan Mauler and exotic weapon prof. (Bastard Sword) and give him a Great Sword for his primary hand and see what damage you can get out of this feat line!

[CyderGnome]

Zotsune wrote:

At level 9 the Two-Weapon Warrior gets the ability ** spoiler omitted ** Does this mean that it can be used with ** spoiler omitted ** and attack with both weapons?

If so then add 2 levels of Titan Mauler and exotic weapon prof. (Bastard Sword) and give him a Great Sword for his primary hand and see what damage you can get out of this feat line!

No. Doublestrike is its own standard action. The Doublestrike action is different from the basic "attack" action called out by vital strike.

[Zotsune]

*Sigh* Okay thanks scraping that idea and back to square one.

[blackbloodtroll]

Two weapon fighting, and Vital Strike, could not be a worse combo.

[Zotsune]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Two weapon fighting, and Vital Strike, could not be a worse combo.

Did you -not- see my question??? Please -read- the question before putting in your personal comment.

The question was if I could use the Doublestrike ability (from Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype) with Vital Strike the answer is no because doublestrike is a different standard action as the normal attack.

EDIT: I already knew that Vital Strike with a -normal- TWF build would suck but I was wondering if a Greatsword + Bastard Sword VS on the same attack would provide enough damage to overcome VS's "weakness".

[voska66]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Two weapon fighting, and Vital Strike, could not be a worse combo.

If Vital strike could be used with Double strike it would be better than with Two Handed weapon as you'd vital strike with a light and one handed weapon. That would 1D8 and 2D6 instead of 3D6. Assuming you hit with both attacks. Since it doesn't work it's not better.

[Claxon]

Zotsune wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Two weapon fighting, and Vital Strike, could not be a worse combo.

Did you -not- see my question??? Please -read- the question before putting in your personal comment.

The question was if I could use the Doublestrike ability (from Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype) with Vital Strike the answer is no because doublestrike is a different standard action as the normal attack.

EDIT: I already knew that Vital Strike with a -normal- TWF build would suck but I was wondering if a Greatsword + Bastard Sword VS on the same attack would provide enough damage to overcome VS's "weakness".

You can't wield a greatsword and bastard sword together unless you have some ability that I'm unaware of from two-weapon warrior. A greatsword is two-handed weapon, and unless you have an ability that says to treat it as a one handed weapon you're using 3 hands worth of weapons.

[Zotsune]

Did no one read this line??
|
v

Zotsune wrote:

If so then add 2 levels of Titan Mauler and exotic weapon prof. (Bastard Sword) and give him a Great Sword for his primary hand and see what damage you can get out of this feat line!

I'm talking about having a Great Sword and Bastard Sword with the Doublestrike + VS if it could work (which I know now it doesn't) that -would- have been 4d6 + 2d10 which means a base of 6-42 damage in one shot (with normal VS if Improved VS it would go up to 9-64 if Greater VS 12-86 but because it doesn't work those numbers are irreverent.)

[Kazaan]

Zotsune wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Two weapon fighting, and Vital Strike, could not be a worse combo.

Did you -not- see my question??? Please -read- the question before putting in your personal comment.

The question was if I could use the Doublestrike ability (from Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype) with Vital Strike the answer is no because doublestrike is a different standard action as the normal attack.

EDIT: I already knew that Vital Strike with a -normal- TWF build would suck but I was wondering if a Greatsword + Bastard Sword VS on the same attack would provide enough damage to overcome VS's "weakness".

That's why he made the comment; VS and TWF are fundamentally mutually exclusive. It is in no way possible to combine them so it's better to specialize in one or the other; and given the bigger gist of the build is focusing on TWF with a dip into Mauler to 1-h the greatsword, it's better to just stick with that. The Attack action is a specific standard action, not just any standard action that involves attacking. That's why you can't combine it with Cleave, Doublestrike, or any other standard Use Feat or Use Special Ability action; only the specific standard action called Attack, which allows one to make a single melee, ranged, or natural attack qualifies for VS.

[Mofisto]

I know your question was about DOuble Strike and Vital Strike stacking...
But if you're looking at dealing heavy damage with each strike on a TWF'er, go with Half-giant TWF Ranger, wielding a standard of 2d6/1d8 (longsword/swortsword), and from level four on cast lead blades on yourself, upping those to 3d6/2d6. You'll probably have 14 dex at first but that's why you rely on Comba Style to give you the TWF feats while waiting for your stat bonuses to boost your dex up.

[Zotsune]

*Sigh* I thought that reading the entire thread before posting was a norm with stuff like this but the more people that post the more I want to say Read the entire thread before posting!

Because some of the things people are saying I have already conceded to and I have acknowledged that I was in the wrong.

(This doesn't count for Mofisto)

[Claxon]

Zotsune wrote:

Did no one read this line??

|
v

Zotsune wrote:

If so then add 2 levels of Titan Mauler and exotic weapon prof. (Bastard Sword) and give him a Great Sword for his primary hand and see what damage you can get out of this feat line!

I'm talking about having a Great Sword and Bastard Sword with the Doublestrike + VS if it could work (which I know now it doesn't) that -would- have been 4d6 + 2d10 which means a base of 6-42 damage in one shot (with normal VS if Improved VS it would go up to 9-64 if Greater VS 12-86 but because it doesn't work those numbers are irreverent.)

I'm sorry, I totally missed that line.

Do remember to take full penalties from two-weapon fighting for using two one-handed weapons, as appropriate for the two-weapon warrior and his abilities that reduce those penalties. I would calculate the values, but without knowing exactly what level you are I wont attempt it because of all the abilities that modify it.

[Zotsune]

Zotsune wrote:

stuff I've previously said:

Did no one read this line??

|
v

Zotsune wrote:

If so then add 2 levels of Titan Mauler and exotic weapon prof. (Bastard Sword) and give him a Great Sword for his primary hand and see what damage you can get out of this feat line!

I'm talking about having a Great Sword and Bastard Sword with the Doublestrike + VS if it could work (which I know now it doesn't) that -would- have been 4d6 + 2d10 which means a base of 6-42 damage in one shot (with normal VS if Improved VS it would go up to 9-64 if Greater VS 12-86 but because it doesn't work those numbers are irreverent.)

[Kazaan]

Zotsune wrote:

*Sigh* I thought that reading the entire thread before posting was a norm with stuff like this but the more people that post the more I want to say Read the entire thread before posting!

Because some of the things people are saying I have already conceded to and I have acknowledged that I was in the wrong.

(This doesn't count for Mofisto)

1) If someone starts composing a post, and someone else submits a post in the meantime, the person still writing doesn't see any intervening posts until after finishing their own. So, very often, two or more people will be writing about the same or similar things (or writing opposing analysis, for that matter), and they aren't aware of what the other is doing until after they're finished.

2) Off-hand comments do you no harm. Yes, you concede the point, and someone points out, just for iteration, that it's an overall bad idea, makes a clarification, adds a detail, or even makes a snarky comment; that's no good reason to go off on them... ever. Moreover, after conceding the point, you go on to criticize for "not reading your question" when, in fact, there was no comment that involved "not reading your question"; just ones that involved a better understanding of the ramifications of your question than even you did. TWF meshes poorly with Vital Strike... that stands both for "normal TWF" as well as "fancy TWF" because the core issue is that Vital Strike meshes poorly with anything that involves use of Use Special Ability or Use Feat actions as well as Full-Attack actions. Even the Mobile Fighter who gets to make a Full-Attack as a standard action is SOL because doing so doesn't transform it from Full-Attack into Attack.

3) You attract more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. When someone gives you advice, even if you had already received it from another source, take it in stride. There is never a good reason to get upset at someone for giving you good advice. In the event that you come up with a good reason, that reason is wrong. It also gives you a bad reputation and, eventually, people will start recognizing you as the guy who gets pissed when people answer your questions.

[Zotsune]

Kazaan wrote:

Zotsune wrote:

*Sigh* I thought that reading the entire thread before posting was a norm with stuff like this but the more people that post the more I want to say Read the entire thread before posting!

Because some of the things people are saying I have already conceded to and I have acknowledged that I was in the wrong.

(This doesn't count for Mofisto)

1) If someone starts composing a post, and someone else submits a post in the meantime, the person still writing doesn't see any intervening posts until after finishing their own. So, very often, two or more people will be writing about the same or similar things (or writing opposing analysis, for that matter), and they aren't aware of what the other is doing until after they're finished.

2) Off-hand comments do you no harm. Yes, you concede the point, and someone points out, just for iteration, that it's an overall bad idea, makes a clarification, adds a detail, or even makes a snarky comment; that's no good reason to go off on them... ever. Moreover, after conceding the point, you go on to criticize for "not reading your question" when, in fact, there was no comment that involved "not reading your question"; just ones that involved a better understanding of the ramifications of your question than even you did. TWF meshes poorly with Vital Strike... that stands both for "normal TWF" as well as "fancy TWF" because the core issue is that Vital Strike meshes poorly with anything that involves use of Use Special Ability or Use Feat actions as well as Full-Attack actions. Even the Mobile Fighter who gets to make a Full-Attack as a standard action is SOL because doing so doesn't transform it from Full-Attack into Attack.

3) You attract more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. When someone gives you advice, even if you had already received it from another source, take it in stride. There is never a good reason to get upset at someone for giving you good advice. In the event that you come up with a good reason, that...

@1) I understand that and some even edit "ninja'd" or post after their post "ninja'd" but as you can see on this thread there weren't even over laying posts most of the time. Now I'm not trying to sound like I'm pissed at people not doing this I'm just saying that I thought it was common courtesy that if you are going to post on a thread that you should read it before making your comment because it could have already been made.

@2) I would have expected the OP of the "that's an overall bad idea" post to post why it is instead of just shooting it down.

Lets say (hypothetically speaking) someone were to say that Star Trek (the entirety of it) was the worst Sci-Fi television show out there and not even give an example as to why. It would cause one of two things to happen: The Trekies/Trekers would be posting in rage at this comment and give reasons as to why it is the best Sci-Fi television show or people would dismiss this as a troll looking for attention.

The whole point of this thread that I made was to find out if I could use Doublestrike with VS and because people have posted reasons as to why it doesn't work I now know that it doesn't because Doublestrike isn't a normal attack its a special attack that -only- the Two-Weapon Warrior can preform and as such counts as its own Standard Action.

I knew that TWF + VS was a bad combination from the start I just wanted to see if I could do this one thing but I can't because my previous understanding of VS was "If it is a Standard Action Attack I can do it." Now it is "If is the normal attack as defined by Standard Action Attack then you can add VS with it."

@3) That is great advice I just wish that if they shoot down something they would give reasons as to why it is bad instead of just saying that it is, because reasons gives understanding to those who don't know any better.

I am sorry that I "blew up" I am trying to work on controlling my anger and it would appear that it isn't working... All of the posts here have been good (except for blackbloodtroll's) because they have been given reasons as to why this isn't a good idea or why it doesn't work. And just remember if you see me posting anything just think of it as theory craft see what could be done at level 20 for x class(es) because I prepare my characters before actually putting them in game, I think things through and figure out what their strengths and weaknesses are and for this particular character his weakness will be AC so I have to compensate that with a bunch of health and/or a lot of damage output. (The latter being what I'm leaning more towards)

The original thought for this particular character was 10 Synthesist Summoner/10 Titan Mauler but then I got to reading about how bad the Titan Mauler is and thought that a 2 level dip would be better and then I was thinking about how awesome it would be to duel-wield 2 two-handed weapons but taking the -4 to attack would have been too brutal and then the Two-Weapon Fighting Feats would have only done so much. I remembered that I had made a Two-Weapon Warrior before with the Two-Bladed Sword as his main weapon and took his template and morphed it into this mess (now he didn't have VS because he was a magic weapon/armor crafter (profession Blacksmith so I could do both armor and weapons) but as you can see about my previous understanding of VS how I would have thought this could have worked)

[blackbloodtroll]

We have no way of knowing what you know.

Now, the two handed Fighter archetype, with Vital Strike, is a viable combo.

[Zotsune]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

We have no way of knowing what you know.

Now, the two handed Fighter archetype, with Vital Strike, is a viable combo.

Now that isn't that bad of an idea...

*Starts next Theory Crafting Character*

[blackbloodtroll]

Zotsune wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

We have no way of knowing what you know.

Now, the two handed Fighter archetype, with Vital Strike, is a viable combo.

Now that isn't that bad of an idea...

*Starts next Theory Crafting Character*

You may want to check out this thread.

Also, be cool bro.

I promise, not everyone is out to get you. ;)

[Claxon]

Zotsune wrote:

This is just theory craft and I was thinking that at level 11 the Two-Weapon Warrior can use one-handed weapons in his off hand as a light weapon so I was just thinking long term now obviously at level 1 he would be using a Great Sword or a Bastard Sword and a Short Sword but in the 11-20 range he would be doing more of this stuff with a Great Sword and Bastard Sword for 2d6 + 1d10 damage

My objection to that would be that while you could take Titan Mauler to use a greatsword one handed, if you truly intend to utilize a bastard sword just take exotic weapon proficiency and dual wield bastard swords (at higher levels). A greatsword is 2d6 vs 1d10. Once you get to sufficiently high levels your damage comes from Power Attack and Strength Bonuses. The difference between the greatsword and bastardsword is the feat and 1.5pts of average damage vs 2 levels of titan mauler. And while those two levels aren't terrible, they delay the advancement of the real powers you want by two levels. So you couldn't wield a one handed weapon as a light weapon with the two weapon warrior archetype until 13th character level being a titan mauler 2/two weapon warrior 11.

Also, he couldn't wield the greatsword or bastard at level 1 and wield another weapon. The titan mauler doesn't get that ability till 2nd level.

So at 2nd level he could wield a greatsword and a light weapon and two weapon fight, taking the -2 for Jotungrip and -2/-2 for two-weapon fighting with a light weapon. He can't wield the one hand weapon as a light weapon until 11th two weapon warrior level, which if stacked with two levels of titan mauler means level 13 minimum to wield a greatsword and a bastard sword, so it would be 13-20, not 11-20.

[Zotsune]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Zotsune wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

We have no way of knowing what you know.

Now, the two handed Fighter archetype, with Vital Strike, is a viable combo.

Now that isn't that bad of an idea...

*Starts next Theory Crafting Character*

You may want to check out this thread.

Also, be cool bro.

I promise, not everyone is out to get you. ;)

Thank you for this thread I am loving it right now!

[Zotsune]

Claxon wrote:

Zotsune wrote:

This is just theory craft and I was thinking that at level 11 the Two-Weapon Warrior can use one-handed weapons in his off hand as a light weapon so I was just thinking long term now obviously at level 1 he would be using a Great Sword or a Bastard Sword and a Short Sword but in the 11-20 range he would be doing more of this stuff with a Great Sword and Bastard Sword for 2d6 + 1d10 damage

My objection to that would be that while you could take Titan Mauler to use a greatsword one handed, if you truly intend to utilize a bastard sword just take exotic weapon proficiency and dual wield bastard swords (at higher levels). A greatsword is 2d6 vs 1d10. Once you get to sufficiently high levels your damage comes from Power Attack and Strength Bonuses. The difference between the greatsword and bastardsword is the feat and 1.5pts of average damage vs 2 levels of titan mauler. And while those two levels aren't terrible, they delay the advancement of the real powers you want by two levels. So you couldn't wield a one handed weapon as a light weapon with the two weapon warrior archetype until 13th character level being a titan mauler 2/two weapon warrior 11.

Also, he couldn't wield the greatsword or bastard at level 1 and wield another weapon. The titan mauler doesn't get that ability till 2nd level.

So at 2nd level he could wield a greatsword and a light weapon and two weapon fight, taking the -2 for Jotungrip and -2/-2 for two-weapon fighting with a light weapon. He can't wield the one hand weapon as a light weapon until 11th two weapon warrior level, which if stacked with two levels of titan mauler means level 13 minimum to wield a greatsword and a bastard sword, so it would be 13-20, not 11-20.

Here is how I'm going to break it down level by level, At level 1 he is a Human Two-Weapon Warrior Fighter with the feats Exotic Weapon Prof. Bastard Sword, Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice. At level one he will use a Bastard Sword and a Short Sword. At level 2 he is a Titan Mauler Barbarian and same goes for level 3 and his new feat will be Power Attack. At level 4 and from then on he will stay as a Two-Weapon Warrior Fighter using the Great Sword and Short Sword until Two-Weapon Warrior level 11 (total level 13) when he will use the Great Sword and Bastard Sword. Yes I know that I'm fighting at -4/-4 until then (which at level 13 it becomes -3/-3 and at level 17 it becomes -2/-2 but that is why I'm going to get the Weapon Focus Feat and Greater Weapon Focus Feat for the Great Sword and the Bastard Sword knocking those penalties down to 0).

Here is the list of feats I was thinking of getting in no particular order (I just looked at the d20pfsrd feat tree and thought that these could synergies well with what I was thinking of doing. Again these feats do not reflect what level they will be taken and if you are asking how I got 21 as the feat total 1 for being a human, 18 levels of Fighter (nine bonus feats)(at level one this character is a Fighter so at level one I have 3 feats) and an odd level in Barbarian (the rules do say that every total odd level a character receives the character gains a feat right? Or am I reading that rule wrong as well?)
1. Power Attack
2. Furious Focus
3. Quick Draw
4. Two-Weapon Fighting
5. Double slice
6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7. Two-Weapon Rend
8. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
9. Two-Weapon Defense
10. Exotic Weapon Prof. Bastard Sword
11. Weapon Focus (Great Sword)
12. Weapon Specialization (Great Sword)
13. Greater Weapon Focus (Great Sword)
14. Greater Weapon Specialization (Great Sword)
15. Penetrating Strike (Great Sword)
16. Greater Penetrating Strike (Great Sword)
17. Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
18. Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
19. Greater Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
20. Greater Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
21. Combat Reflexes

[Claxon]

I still think that this sort of build is better off avoiding Titan Mauler all together and ignore the slight weapon damage bonus that the greatsword has over the bastard sword. You'll get to Two Weapon Fighter level 11 faster which will be nice. You can also avoid having to pickup the same set of weapon feats twice by just dual wielding bastard swords once you get there. This would open up 4 feats in your current build and you damage would only be lower by 1.5 pt of average damage. Thats not much gain for a whole lot of cost IMO. At the end of the day it's your character and you can do what you want, I just think mechanically the benefit you get doesn't justify the cost.

That said, the build you posted above does appear to be all correct so go for it if you want.

[Zotsune]

Or I could just go for the Sun Blade as posted by Volkspanzer in the link that Black Blood Troll posted earlier and get the feats for Short Sword instead and save me a feat with Exotic Weapon Prof. and do what you said to do for an extra 5 feats to the build. And if my damage is only lowered by 1.5 points then I think it would be worth it, maybe I could even go Half Orc and get the Deathless feat line!

[Claxon]

Zotsune wrote:

Or I could just go for the Sun Blade as posted by Volkspanzer in the link that Black Blood Troll posted earlier and get the feats for Short Sword instead and save me a feat with Exotic Weapon Prof. and do what you said to do for an extra 5 feats to the build. And if my damage is only lowered by 1.5 points then I think it would be worth it, maybe I could even go Half Orc and get the Deathless feat line!

The Sun Blade is awesome, affording a pair is the only problem there. But yes, if you go that path you'll free up 5 feats and would allow yourself to do some pretty damn cool stuff with them.

If you can be bothered to also purchase a headband or charisma or otherwise get yourself 15 charisma (I personally recommend just have 10 charisma and buy the headband) you can spend a feat on Skill Focus(X), Eldritch Heritage, and Improved Eldritch Heritage with the Orc, or Abyssal, and maybe another Bloodline and get yourself a +6 inherent strength bonus from it. The Skill Focus required depends on the bloodline you decide to take. You could also do a whole lot of other things with the feats depending on your fancy. 5 feats is a whole lot of options.

[Kazaan]

If you're starting action from lvl 1, that -4/-4 is gonna murder your hit rate. Also, Furious Focus only works with 2-h weapons or 1-h weapons wielded in 2 hands. Jotungrip explicitly states that the weapon counts as a 1-h weapon for associated feats so it won't work there. Furthermore, focusing on two sources of slashing damage probably isn't the best idea because then, DR/B or P happens and penetrating strike doesn't come up until lvl 12. Two-Weapon Rend requires +11 BAB and you have it listed at lvl 7, which is illegal. Lastly, you don't really even NEED TWF for TWW until lvl 3 at the very earliest where your first "two-weapon" ability comes into play; even then, if you're taking the -2 from Jotungrip, it's better to beef up your BAB first and get some additional attack benefits to make it worth while. For that matter, you don't really need GTWF at all because the -10 to hit isn't worth the 19 Dex you need to get it. So cap yourself at ITWF and save the 2 Dex to round out Str and Con for better DPR and survivability. Here's a possible improvement:

Stats and Traits

Spoiler:

Str: 19 (13)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 13 (3)
Int: 8 (-2)
Wis: 14 (5)
Cha: 7 (-4)

Indomitable Faith
Mentored (Profession)

Level and Feat Progression

Spoiler:

1) Titan Mauler Barbarian 1: BAB +1, Power Attack (lvl 1), Weapon Focus (Lucerne Hammer) (human); wield a Lucerne Hammer 2-h
2) Barbarian 2: BAB +2, Jotungrip (Ex); can 1-h the hammer now, but don't bother as you need accuracy more than damage.
3) Two-Weapon Warrior Fighter 1: Bab +3, Quick Draw (lvl 3), Cleave (fighter); note the Cleave as a fighter bonus feat as you'll be trading it out at Fighter 4.
4) Fighter 2: Bab +4, Weapon Focus (Gladius) (fighter) Again, note this as a fighter bonus feat, Bravery (Ex), +1 Dex
5) Fighter 3: Bab +5, TWF (lvl 5), Defensive flurry (Ex)
6) Fighter 4: Bab +6, Hammer the Gap (fighter), Cleave->Lunge (fighter retraining); You don't need Cleave too much now as you have an iterative attack and Lunge will let you hit out farther with your off-hand weapon later.
7) Fighter 5: Bab +7, Nimble Moves (lvl 7), Twin Blades(Ex); Start wielding your Gladius as an off-hand now as Twin Blades will net you -3 on your main and -1 on the off-hand attacks.
8) Fighter 6: Bab +8, Doubleslice (fighter), +1 Dex
9) Fighter 7: Bab +9, WSpec (Luc Hammer) (lvl 9)
10) Fighter 8: Bab +10, EWP (Bastard Sword) (fighter), WFoc (Glad)->GWFoc (Luc Hammer) (fighter retraining)
11) Fighter 9: Bab +11, Improved Sunder (lvl 11)
12) Fighter 10: Bab +12, Weapon Focus (BS) (fighter), +1 Dex
13) Fighter 11: Bab +13, ITWF (lvl 13), Improved Balance (Ex); start wielding your Bastard Sword as your off-hand.
14) Fighter 12: Bab +14, Two-Weapon Rend (fighter)
15) Fighter 13: Bab +15, Penetrating Strike (lvl 15), Equal Opportunity (Ex)
16) Fighter 14: Bab +16, WSpec (BA) (fighter), +1 Con
17) Fighter 15: Bab +17, GWFoc (BA) (lvl 17), Perfect Balance (Ex)
18) Fighter 16: Bab +18, Greater Penetrating Strike (fighter)
19) Fighter 17: Bab +19, Greater Sunder (lvl 19)
20) Fighter 18: Bab +20, GWSpec (Luc Hammer) (fighter), +1 Str
------------< Epic Levels >-------------
21) Fighter 19: Bab +21, Combat Reflexes (lvl 21), Deft Doublestrike (Ex)
22) Fighter 20: Bab +22, GWSpec (BS) (fighter), Weapon Mastery (Bastard Sword)
...
23) Continue with Barbarian levels and work towards Greater Beast Totem.

Strategy and Tactics

Spoiler:

Levels 1-6 will largely be about charging with your hammer at reach and, if the enemy has medium or heavy armor, attempting a sunder to try and damage it. The hammer gets a +2 to sunder medium or heavy armor and, if broken, its AC value is cut in half (easier to hit them) and the check penalty doubles (harder for them to acrobat past you, climb away, etc). Since you're attacking at reach, you won't provoke an AoO unless they also have reach (in which case, just attack them). Cleave at lvl will help you get in an extra attack if the enemy is already close by and lunge will let you hit them at 10-15' when you get your second Bab iterative.

Levels 7-12 will see you start really bringing the TWF style to bear. You'll use a Gladius at first as a cheap throw-away weapon so your TWF penalties are light-weapon manageable and it also lets you do slashing damage so you have the whole damage type assortment now and can do piercing with either weapon. Lunge will overlap the reaches of your weapons so you can attack with both from 10', or attack with the hammer at 15' followed by a 5' step to attack with the off-hand. Remember that you are allowed to make all main-hand attacks first, all off-hand attacks first, or intersperse them as you see fit so long as each hand follows its own proper order of attacks (BAB for main-hand, standard>ITWF for off-hand). Also remember that you can charge first with the hammer out for a 2-h charge and then quickdraw your gladius to threaten adjacent and perform your full-attack next round. Utility abilities like Nimble Moves and Hammer the Gap will let you 5' step through difficult terrain (important for you to get proper positioning) and deal extra damage on continuous attacks respectively.

Levels 13-22 are just about added perks such as wielding your Bastard Sword as your off-hand at normal light off-hand penalties and reducing DR via Penetrating Strike, as well as your "weapon buff" feat trees. At some point in here, you'll probably want to trade your normal Bastard Sword for a Sunblade because it will count as a light weapon in the off-hand and allow you to TWF at -1/-1 at lvl 13, and no penalty at lvl 17; the Focus and Spec feats for Bastard Sword will even translate for you and you'll have the option of using the Hammer or the normal Bastard Sword as your main-hand weapon depending on the circumstances.

Lvls 23+ are epic level gravy and it would be very nice to work on your long forgotten barbarian roots to get Pounce going, ideally by lvl 31.

[Zotsune]

Kazaan I said twice that these Feats are just what I'm thinking of getting not that they are going to be taken in that particular order...

I thought that Power Attack worked with all attacks not just those from 2 handed weapons or one handed weapons being used in 2 hands... I thought that only gave a 50% bonus to damage if done in that way.

And interesting Level and Feat Progression, I never saw the usefulness of Fighter Re-training because I thought that you would effectively lose feats in the long run.

[The Vulture]

Zotsune wrote:

I thought that Power Attack worked with all attacks not just those from 2 handed weapons or one handed weapons being used in 2 hands... I thought that only gave a 50% bonus to damage if done in that way.

Power Attack works with any weapon just fine, but Furious Focus specifies a 2H weapon or a 1H weapon in two hands.

Furious Focus:

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack’s penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn. You still suffer the penalty on any additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity.

[Zotsune]

And it looks like I have been caught not reading the post...

Well isn't that a wrench in the gears...

So would Power Attack even be worth it after taking 6 attacks at level 20? What would that be a -5 on attack rolls? Or is it -5 for the first attack then -10 for the second? I could be reading the penalty/benefit thing wrong for Power Attack... Anyway at that point would it really be worth it for +10 to damage?

[Kazaan]

Power Attack has its uses, even at higher levels. Keep in mind that you use it on a round-by-round basis so, if you're up against a high AC target, you can opt not to use it, but vs mooks, you can situate yourself within reach of several and mow down multiples in a single round at higher levels. It's all about tactical use of your abilities. Furthermore, in the build I suggested, Power Attack is a prereq for both Cleave and the Improved Sunder tree.

[Jessica Price]

Removed some personal sniping and response.

[Deylinarr]

sorry, but Im been searching and cant find the answer, so Im going to hijack this thread with my 'dead horse beater'........can you vital strike and power attack?

PRD wrote:

You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls.

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

doesn't say "standard action" or "attack action" or "confusing term that may or may not be an action", just "all melee attack rolls" soIm thinking yes....making it a decent choice for my two-handed fighter with power attack and furious focus. Or did I miss something else?

[Dennis Deadsky]

Yes, you can combine Power Attack and Vital Strike. Personally, I think Vital Strike sucks and would never take it (because it rarely applies), but reasonable people disagree about that.

[Kazaan]

Power Attack isn't associated with any particular action so you use it completely at your discretion. You could even use it in a round you don't attack and it will apply to your AoOs (that's generally a stupid thing to do, but there it is).

[Driver 325 yards]

Dennis Deadsky wrote:

Yes, you can combine Power Attack and Vital Strike. Personally, I think Vital Strike sucks and would never take it (because it rarely applies), but reasonable people disagree about that.

Oh, and I be one of those reasonable people.

Just finished building a 13th level Barbarian who springs in and out of combat with Bestial Leaper and Vital Strike chain for upto 100 points of damage with one strike and then springs back into the shadows hiding in plain sight. What is not to like baby? What is not to like?

[Zotsune]

Driver 325 yards wrote:

Just finished building a 13th level Barbarian who springs in and out of combat with Bestial Leaper and Vital Strike chain for upto 100 points of damage with one strike and then springs back into the shadows hiding in plain sight. What is not to like baby? What is not to like?

Okay so Improved VS + Devastating Strike + Power Attack + (weapon damage guessing Great Sword for max weapon damage) + Str bonus... Am I missing anything?

6d6 + 4(Devastating Strike) + 9 (Power Attack + 6 normal + 50% for 2 handing the Great Sword) + 5-9 (? Str Bonus depending on how stats are... you would hope that before raging a Barbarians Str is higher than 14 but I don't know what point buy people are doing... My group likes to use 25 but others like lower powered games or even random point buys for some freaky numbers.)

So what am I missing? Powerful Blow Rage power with Bleeding Blow for another + 6 (total) to the damage...

Seriously what am I missing???

[Driver 325 yards]

Zotsune wrote:

Driver 325 yards wrote:

Just finished building a 13th level Barbarian who springs in and out of combat with Bestial Leaper and Vital Strike chain for upto 100 points of damage with one strike and then springs back into the shadows hiding in plain sight. What is not to like baby? What is not to like?

Okay so Improved VS + Devastating Strike + Power Attack + (weapon damage guessing Great Sword for max weapon damage) + Str bonus... Am I missing anything?

6d6 + 4(Devastating Strike) + 9 (Power Attack + 6 normal + 50% for 2 handing the Great Sword) + 5-9 (? Str Bonus depending on how stats are... you would hope that before raging a Barbarians Str is higher than 14 but I don't know what point buy people are doing... My group likes to use 25 but others like lower powered games or even random point buys for some freaky numbers.)

So what am I missing? Powerful Blow Rage power with Bleeding Blow for another + 6 (total) to the damage...

Seriously what am I missing???

No powerful blow, bleeding blow or devastating strike yet. That would come down the line. You are missing that he can hide in plain sight and can always pre-buff with lead blades and/or enlarge person. He makes for a pretty good hit and go archer as well. Barbarian Striker Build. Furious Finish also allows him to max his vital strike damage

[Zotsune]

Thanks for this build and yes I did forget the pre-buffing before the fight starts... I am surprised that it is an urban barbarian though... don't they have a reduced Rage mechanic? Even so this is an amazing build and well more knowledge to help beef up one hits is amazing!

EDIT: Oh now I see why Urban Barbarian is needed because you can't use Stealth in normal Rage but because the Urban Barbarian's Rage is different you are allowed to.