0-armor characters


Advice

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What's the best class (non-caster) to build an armorless character? I know If you have ridiculously high dex, it can be worked out, but I was wondering if there was a specific class that could use that better. Could you make a high-dex barbarian for example? They always make the pictures of them unarmored, so I as wondering if it was possible to try.

ote: This is mostly a flavor choice. However, I still like to be at least semi-optimised, just so I dont end up being too fragile/useless.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, they usually are wearing a belt with a big buckle, right? Sounds like +5Haramaki to me. Otherwise Kensai Magus or Dex Fighter into Duelist. Or Monk. That's what I've got off of the top of my head.


Why not just reskin your outfit to be a bit skimpy? You see chainmail bikini's in media all the time.

That said, the only martial who innately wears no armor is monk you can switch to no armor once you reach +10 dex modifier which... isn't happening at level 1 probably. Wearing no armor into battle in game is about as smart as it is irl, understandably. No magic makes that even harder.

CAGM barbarians might be an option, seeing as how some of those builds drop all armor in exchange for DR and a bulk of HP. Come and Get Me lets you retaliate against attacks and hit first, and if you take dazing assault its possible to daze them and keep them from hitting you at all!(If I understand correctly anyway). But that also comes online pretty late in the game, 12th.

Scarab Sages

A High-DEX Barbarian would sort of be counterproductive, due to the fact that the Barbarian will still sacrifice its AC to Rage.

A Monk would be the best bet for maximizing AC since they take two attributes to add to Armor Class (DEX and WIS). The drawback is that you have to still balance 4 attributes (Multi-Attribute Dependant) as a monk: STR for Damage, DEX for AC/Saves, CON for Health/Saves, WIS for AC/Saves. Moreover, you are not running a 1/1 BAB character, so you might have a bit of trouble hitting.

You can reduce this penalty by purchaing an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, so that you can add damage modifiers through Dexterity instead of Strength.

With that, you have both Armor/Shield Bonus open for variation. Mage Armor can boost your AC by 4. Having a weapon with the Blocking-subtype can give you a Shield Bonus if you fight defensively.

At 4th level, you gain an additional AC for being a monk with no armor/encumberance.

In addition to Fighting Defensively, you can increase your AC through that as well. As a monk, Crane Style can increse your Dodge bonus by 1, as well as reduce the penalty for attacking defensively by 2. If you go into the Crane Wing portion of the style, you can negate the first melee attack that actually hits you. Placing 3 ranks into Acrobatics can increse the Dodge Bonus by 1 as well.

So let us say you have a 20-point buy:

STR - 8
DEX - 18 (16 + 2 Enhancement)
CON - 15
INT - 7
WIS - 20 (17 + 2 Enhancement + 1 Level)
CHA - 7

You purchaced the Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, as well as the Belt of Incredible Dexterity and Headband of Inspired Wisdom. Your Feats include Weapon Finesse, Crane Style, Crane Wing. When you leveld up to Level 4, you added a point into Wisdom, increasing the Base to 18. You also have 3 Ranks into Acrobatics. Purchaced a Tonfa, but use your Unarmed Strikes to attack. Finally, a Mage casted Mage Armor before the fight on you. You are Fighting Defensively to gain the bonus from the Crane Style.

10 - Base
4 - DEX (16+2)
5 - WIS (18+2)
1 - AC Bonus
4 - Armor (Mage Armor)
1 - Shield (Tonfa's Blocking)
3 - Dodge (Acrobatics Rank 3)
1 - Dodge (Crane Style)

29 - AC when Fighting Defensively

Also note that since you are a monk with Good Saves for all 3 Saves, as well as focusing on the Attibutes that increses your Saves, you do not need to worry much on that aspect.


Of course if your a monk the downside is... your a monk.

Scarab Sages

MrSin wrote:
Of course if your a monk the downside is... your a monk.

With the changes to Crane Wing and Deflect Arrows, that might be a good thing.

Then again, looking like Brother John might dismay some potential Pathfinders...


And a question from a player vastly more familiar with 3.5 than PF. Why do Bracers of Armor +8 never seem to enter the picture when I see these threads? It would seem to be the starting point for any of these builds leaving you with essentially (and roughly) +5 in bonuses difference between an armored build and one wearing no armor (since any actual armor could also be enchanted up to a +5 bonus).


There are some options:

Savage barbarian. Gets bonuses as long as he doesn't wear armor. But shield are ok.

If 3pp is ok the serene barbarian could work. More so if combined with the martial artist monk. You get +dex and +wis from raging.

A melee guy with a twohanded weapon and shield of swings. Use the feat when you think you could be attacked.

Make a char that has other ways to avoid being hit. Like concealment.


Cao Phen wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Of course if your a monk the downside is... your a monk.
With the changes to Crane Wing and Deflect Arrows, that might be a good thing.

Changes? Was there a recent change I don't know about?

Kayerloth wrote:
Why do Bracers of Armor +8 never seem to enter the picture when I see these threads?

Because they cost exactly the same as just enhancing regular armor. If it only goes up to +8 then it will never be as well off as a +5 chainmail(9 AC), and it'll be ridiculously more expensive!


Well, thanks for the advice. The main reason for the question was, condsidering how many "chainmail bikini" or "loincloth armor" stuff we see out there, I was wondering if it was possible to fight as a completely nude character. Chainmail bikini is not armor (not in my book anyway) so I was wondering if somebody with "cosmetic" armor (or NOTHING AT ALL) was playable.

The monk really seems like the best option. I guess I'll try to build Ronaldo, the nude monk. It would make the whole "low-int, low-cha" thing work well in character. For the moment, the interesting classes would be (from an RP perspective) either dwarf, human or vanara. I'll probably never get to play them, but heck, they might make an interesting NPC in a campaign or something.

Note: How does the monk get a wisdom bonus to armor?

Lantern Lodge

My favorite no armor class is Synthesis Summoner were you pet is technically your armor lol.

Also i built a Monk Duelist once using a Fan as the weapon. The ac got really high but it was MAD as all hell. The only reason i did it was because i was allowed to roll my stats and they were all 14+.

Lantern Lodge

williamoak wrote:

Well, thanks for the advice. The main reason for the question was, condsidering how many "chainmail bikini" or "loincloth armor" stuff we see out there, I was wondering if it was possible to fight as a completely nude character. Chainmail bikini is not armor (not in my book anyway) so I was wondering if somebody with "cosmetic" armor (or NOTHING AT ALL) was playable.

The monk really seems like the best option. I guess I'll try to build Ronaldo, the nude monk. It would make the whole "low-int, low-cha" thing work well in character. For the moment, the interesting classes would be (from an RP perspective) either dwarf, human or vanara. I'll probably never get to play them, but heck, they might make an interesting NPC in a campaign or something.

Note: How does the monk get a wisdom bonus to armor?

Monks get wis to ac as well as dex when they wear no armor and have no shield. Its a class ability.


Synthesis summoner is frequently banned though. And you still technically armored. Still, never thought of the fan as a weapon.


there's also a barbarian archetype that gets natural armor and dodge bonuses, and is not supposed to wear armor. It's like you're tarzan or something. In practice i sort of think it's worse than a normal barbarian would be because it gives up the DR. But maybe i'm wrong.


MrSin wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:
Why do Bracers of Armor +8 never seem to enter the picture when I see these threads?
Because they cost exactly the same as just enhancing regular armor. If it only goes up to +8 then it will never be as well off as a +5 chainmail(9 AC), and it'll be ridiculously more expensive!

?

Yes they'll cost the same as enhancing regular armor (and I mention the approximately +5 armor bonus difference) but the point isn't best AC, with or without armor, it's to build without armor ... cost doesn't really enter the picture unless the build has some restriction on it (such as WBL or PFS rules or whatever). Or in other words if the issue is cost why aren't Bracers of Armor +5 always the starting point then (which actually starts to sound like a 9 point swing between armored and unarmored (Full Plate vs nothing with either enchanted up to +5)?


I'll have to check the barbarian archetypes more deeply. If it works out, I'll build Fears-Cloth, the pantless barbarian, who abandoned clothing after his parents where killed by a ravenous herd of pantaloons.

Are there any monk archetypes that could work better with this? I was thinking drunken master or monk of the empty hand (for flavor reasons mostly)


It'll take some work, but there is an empyreal lord in Chronoicle of the Righteous that can provide you with an AC bonus based on your charisma(minimun 1) if you wear revealing clothes and no armor. Just be warned, actually getting the bonus requires a feat(and is pretty high level normally, unless oyu take a prc) and that you do something that might get you some strange looks from the other players...

Also there is the urban barbarian. It can rage to increase its dex and doesn't have the -2 ac of most rages(among other differences from normal rages).


Ok, the empyreal lord thing makes me laugh. I wasnt trying to build a "sexy distraction"-AC type character, more of a "survivable despite being naked" character. Still, interesting stuff.

Shadow Lodge

the best character you can play with a 0 armor class, and i mean literally o if you want, is an unbreakable fighter/invulnerable rager barbarian, with toughness and full orc alternate racial for barbarians (+2 under con before dying) with tenacious survivor, and the deathless feat chain. my god that character had 120 hp at 6th level and walked around with an AC of 6. make sure you take either the celestial or beast totem rage powers for increased healing or pounce.

if you want to add in adamantite full plate you can give yourself an extra 3 dr on top of your nat dr8 from invulnerable rager, at level 12. then add in extra feats and magic items to increase your dr. you can tank a dragon and not care about how much HP damage you take.


Kayerloth wrote:
if the issue is cost why aren't Bracers of Armor +5 always the starting point then

It's 25,000gp and only one AC better than getting the party wizard to cast Mage Armour on you, a level 1 spell.

Scarab Sages

MrSin wrote:
Cao Phen wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Of course if your a monk the downside is... your a monk.
With the changes to Crane Wing and Deflect Arrows, that might be a good thing.

Changes? Was there a recent change I don't know about?

When you negate an attack via Crane Wing/Deflect Arrows/Missile Shield, you negate any other aspect of the attack.

Oh, a bomb was tossed? Missile Shield to negate the damage, as well as splash damage/cloud effect.

Specter attacking you with an incorporeal touch attack? Crane Wing negates the attack, no chance to gain negative levels.

Magus about to strike you with a Shocking Grasp through touch or the weapon? Negate the attack, you do not take Electricity Damage. They still have the charge, though...


williamoak wrote:

I'll have to check the barbarian archetypes more deeply. If it works out, I'll build Fears-Cloth, the pantless barbarian, who abandoned clothing after his parents where killed by a ravenous herd of pantaloons.

Are there any monk archetypes that could work better with this? I was thinking drunken master or monk of the empty hand (for flavor reasons mostly)

I would say the monk of the empty hand is practically required for this. Anyone else has to hold his sword (or whatever) in his hand all day since he has no scabbard to put it in, nor a belt to put the scabbard on....

Oh, and try to play a reptilian race. Reptiles have penile sheaths IIRC.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy: In that case, a Vanara could work well since they're covered in hair. But yeah, I think a belt (or two) would be ok with the idea.

Scarab Sages

MrSin wrote:
Of course if your a monk the downside is... your a monk.

And what downside would that be, given the monk can match fighters for damage and AC.


Artanthos wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Of course if your a monk the downside is... your a monk.
And what downside would that be, given the monk can match fighters for damage and AC.

The downside is that they likely won't and require a decent amount of in game knowledge to attempt to do so? They aren't the most intuitive class in the world.

edit: You need proof of that btw.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:
if the issue is cost why aren't Bracers of Armor +5 always the starting point then
It's 25,000gp and only one AC better than getting the party wizard to cast Mage Armour on you, a level 1 spell.

Yes and that would be an option (or using UMD for a wand) but I'm assuming builds occur in a vacuum not with the assumption you have a pocket wizard (or druid using barkskin or a shield bearer carrying a tower shield etc.). And again (and not just this thread but seems like ALL threads which is what got me wondering) unless it's stated to be a build with some sort of wealth or spending limit why are we assuming an unwillingness to buy a set of Bracers AC +8 (64,000 gp, a drop in the bucket for a 20th level character). In this thread part of the answer would seem to be no items included which would seem to be a good assumption until discussions come around to what sort of items might be used on top of the build itself (which in fairness this thread has barely done outside of my own slight tangent).

All this aside it would appear an unarmored vs armored character is looking for ways to make the roughly 9 point armor bonus difference minimal whether it is via DR, +hp, feats, class choice etc. in a manner unavailable to an armored build.

Grand Lodge

Glamered Armor.


bbt are you saying that someone could trick fears-pants into wearing pants, by using illusion magic?

Grand Lodge

Yes. Wear pants, and look like you are in a bikini.

Also, you can have Invisibility made permanent on an object, like a suit of Armor.


INVISIBLE ARMOR! Now that takes the cake. I still made a build for a nude monk though.

Grand Lodge

It's the Emperor's New Clothes of armor.


That would be a hilarious cursed item: A set of really good armor that, when you wore it, would make you appear nude.

Scarab Sages

Charisma-heavy characters would love that item.


This thread should help.

It's a post I made on this exact idea, though taking it a bit to the extreme. I messed up a bit, as Shield of Swings only gives +4 Shield Bonus to AC, but that still means you're hitting 31 AC at level 6 (only 4 of which is coming from a buff, the Alchemist's mutagen) at the price of having absolute garbage for damage. It does not account for magical items either, so you could easily have a 35 AC (Bracers of armor, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor).

It's an extreme case, but you can use the ideas in here to piece together a character of your own. Best of luck!


I've been curious, what's the average high-level AC? A well armored, well trained fighter would have what kind of AC at level 20 (without too many shenanigans).

Scarab Sages

MrSin wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Of course if your a monk the downside is... your a monk.
And what downside would that be, given the monk can match fighters for damage and AC.

The downside is that they likely won't and require a decent amount of in game knowledge to attempt to do so? They aren't the most intuitive class in the world.

edit: You need proof of that btw.

Builds are posted beginning here

You are more than welcome to post fighter builds in that thread proving me wrong.

Scarab Sages

williamoak wrote:
I've been curious, what's the average high-level AC? A well armored, well trained fighter would have what kind of AC at level 20 (without too many shenanigans).

Without too many shenanigans? 50-60 is not too difficult to hit. After a certain threshold, extra AC is pointless.


Artanthos wrote:
You are more than welcome to post fighter builds in that thread that prove me wrong.

I'm also welcome to critique you and point out many of the things you did to try to play catch up don't actually involve being monk at all. Its like saying your fighter has a lot of skill points and playing a human with all your favored class bonus in skill points. That isn't a fighter class feature, its something anyone can do. Dependency on things like mage armor are a little ridiculous.


williamoak wrote:
I've been curious, what's the average high-level AC? A well armored, well trained fighter would have what kind of AC at level 20 (without too many shenanigans).

this thing is useful for ballparks: http://paizo.com/PRD/monsters/monsterCreation.html

e.g. it says a level 20 monster might have AC 36
And it might have a +30 to hit ... so you should hope your AC is somewhere around 40 if you want to not get hit sometimes. Or 50 if you don't want to get hit at all.

as a guess, this would be easy for that fighter...
10 base
9 full plate
5 enhancement to armor
5 amulet of natural armor
5 ring of protection
3 dex
---------
37 total

and then maybe he could go up a little from there.

Scarab Sages

MrSin wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
You are more than welcome to post fighter builds in that thread that prove me wrong.
I'm also welcome to critique you and point out many of the things you did to try to play catch up don't actually involve being monk at all.

Such as?

. race selection?
. purchasing magic items?
. choosing feats that work with with each other?
. choosing a decent weapon?
. including core rulebook class features in the DPR calculations?

The unarmed human monk with no archetypes is the highest DPR build posted in the thread.

By RAW, all the builds I've posted work and keep up with the fighter. I've done it with and without archetypes, armed and unarmed, using both strength and dexterity builds.

As stated, your welcome to prove me wrong. All you have to do is post a PFS legal fighter that is significantly better.

If you can.

Shadow Lodge

I don't know if this has been said already, because I admit I haven't already read the thread, the title made me need to answer the question: Kensai Magus, you get int to armor as well as dex. So a high dex, high int build would get you a high AC and you would get cool things like int to Init as well as spellstrike.

Scarab Sages

Daedalaman wrote:
I don't know if this has been said already, because I admit I haven't already read the thread, the title made me need to answer the question: Kensai Magus, you get int to armor as well as dex. So a high dex, high int build would get you a high AC and you would get cool things like int to Init as well as spellstrike.

The Kensai is very good at obtaining a high AC without armor. It is one of my favorite archetypes.


Artanthos wrote:
Such as?

The link you posted was to an Oni-Spawn with natural armor(armor of the pit) and arcane strike. Neither of which are monk class features. Was there another one you were pointing to?

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