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Another option would be a way, on the Pathfinder site, to key in the number off the back of a purchased book to download the PDF.
Which means anyone can walk up, write down the number, and download the PDF -- thereby depriving the purchaser. Unless you mean a non-unique number, in which case Paizo is effectively giving the PDF away.
Nor could you easily have some a "scratch-off" code inside the book. First, it's a logistical nightmare, but more importantly, it requires books be sealed/shrink-wrapped, which deprives the FLGS of one of its few remaining advantages against online retailers.
There isn't a simple solution to this problem -- believe me, it has been looked at many times.
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As a GM, I may let you look something up in one of my books. However, me owning the book and bringing it to the game day does not absolve you of the requirement to provide the material yourself. Expecting the GM to no only run the game you get to play in, but also be the source for all of your characters abilities, is rude at best.
It's also been my experience that players without access to the source material also tend to be players with the poorest grasp on what their characters can actually do.
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In my opinion, the optimal strategy for a PFS GM who wishes to travel light (and without an electronic device) is:
1. Buy the CRB in hardback. Buy every other book "in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line of hardcover rulebooks" in PDF. They're only $10, and you can print the rules elements you need in advance. Attach the print outs to the relevant scenario(s). Done.
2. ?
3. Profit.
(For the record, I have the ISG, NPC Codex, APG and B1/2 and a few others in hardback, because I find I use much of that stuff frequently, and I like to show the FLGS a little love. But I certainly don't have to carry them with me.)
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Well, I carry all my books around all the time, as well as each companion booklet I purchaced. These are all to reference anything that people need clarification from. I do this even if I DM or not.
ATM, weight totals into 49.6 lbs of books/booklets.
Not fond of moving this through a convention, but if it helps though clarificaton of rules, I do not mind. I could have bought the majority of these as a pdf, but then this would not help promote my local store and such.
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Realize that I carry the Andoran book for Liberating Command, the Chel. book for Infernal Healing, the Dwarvs book for Watchful Eye, Gods and Magic for Pick Your Poison, ARG for Ironbeard, UM for Murderous Command, UC for Forbid Action.... and that just covers my Clerics 1st level spells, ... I question that decision to run a Cleric (and gain access to these spells on his spell list) may have been silly... He could have chosen a fighter or Oracle and not had this issue.
Is this one reason Clerics are "rare"?
;)
Or you could have chosen to play a cleric using just the CRB and not have to carry a single book, and still have strong 1st-level spells like bless, protection from evil, divine favor, command, and plenty others.
Or use just CRB+APG, and have plenty of material to go nuts with and still only be carrying a single book.
The fact that some players can't fathom the idea of playing a character without ALL OF THE THIIIINGS and also are not willing to assess their personal needs/circumstances as part of their decision-making process, is not the fault of the campaign.
Jiggy - I do carry all that. I realize that I have to. I understand that I bought the Andoran book to save PCs other than my own when they are grappled and about to die (the spell cast is on another players PC - it doesn't work if I need it cast on my PC). I guess I could start requireing the other players to have the book before I prepare it... Kind of like being responsible for your own healing..."your responsible for the buff spells cast on your PC, even when you can't cast them".
"I didn't bring my copy of Cheliax, so if you want healing from a wand of Infernal Healing, you need the source... yeah, I have a wand, but it's only working if you have the book."
I get access to these spells thru three things...
1) run a Cleric.
2) buy the book
3) bring the book.
It still adds up. It means I trim down other things I bring (I bring less scenarios to run as "pick up games", less flip mats, less minis to share, less food...
I have a rolling cart now. 12 PCs and my books. My wife is pushing me to get a Tablet like she has... and often I borrow her's.
so I understand the OPs pain. I can't offer anything to fix it. (other than to say "stop buying hardbacks, buy only PDFs" which is what I've started doing. I only own a PDF of UC, no hardcover for that reason.)
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I have a tablet.
I have a USB that is larger than the hard drives in some computers.
I have a PDF of every book I wish to use or think I may use.
GM says "Do you have the source for this thing you are using on you?"
I say "Yes please give me one moment to pull it up on my tablet. Meanwhile here is my hard copy of the additional resources for you to review."
GM says "Ok so how do I know you didn't just torrent these?"
I say "The watermark at the bottom of the page should say my email address *email address redacted*, if you like I can log into my Paizo account and show you the document there too."
In the unfortunate event that there was no internet and a GM refused to believe the watermark I would play without the shiny toy I wanted and then complain to the event staff.
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Solution.
Own PDF.
Not counting possible taxes? Core 5 books would be about $50 US total as PDF, a savings of $100-$150 roughly. Cost of the inevitable tablet or laptop to carry to the table? Lowest price being around $250 I think for an Ultrabook, or around $200 for a low end tablet like a Nook.
nook at barnes and nobel is $179 they might even be on sale :) for less
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as mentioned that forces you to rebuy the PDF, it is a deterrent playing PFS. An exception for spells should be made in my view. Just that solves this. If you want to play a class bring the book, got it cool, but having to bring a book for just a spell in that book is beyond the pale.
No, it is a requirement to have that option. No one is forcing you to not bring the book, no one is forcing you to use that option, no one is forcing you to play PFS. You want to, but you don't want to be inconvenienced when doing so. Unfortunately, that means what you want to do is inconvenience Paizo and the PFS campaign staff. There is no difference between having to bring a book to play a class and bring a book to use a spell. Just your own opinion.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Far be it for me to tell anyone how to spend their money, but I did just purchase a tablet for my GF, and one of the requirements was that it would be suited for referencing Pathfinder PDFs at the gaming table. So I did quite a bit of research on tablets, and have some pros and cons for a handful of models. Prices included.
Nexus 7 - This tablet is made by Google and runs an Android OS. It has a 7 inch screen and is easily held in the palm of your hand while you roll dice, write things down, or drink a soda. Downside is: the actual screen is only 6.5 inches tall, which is pretty small.
Because it runs Android, you'll have to get a PDF reading app in order to make full, unfettered use of the bookmarks etc that come with Paizo PDFs. So expect to spend about $5 on a good PDF reading app. That said, there are tons of other great apps that make the Nexus worth considering. Free emulators exist for old gaming systems (SNES, NES, PS1, etc), and you can use Chrome to browse (which I prefer to IE), which is a big plus. You can also spend $5 and get the Pathfinder Masterwork Tools app, which is excellent for quick reference of monsters, feats, and spells.
The 16 gb version will run you about $230, which the 32 gb one will be around $250. If it goes on sale, you can get the 32 gb version for around $200. Given all that, if you can find it for $200, it's a good purchase. it doesn't require a proprietary cable to power, and is easy to drag and drop files onto.
XPS 10 - This tablet is made by Dell and runs Windows RT. For those that don't know, RT got a huge amount of flak when it came out for essentially being a really lame version of Windows 8. This is entirely true. That said, if you think of the XPS 10 as tablet, rather than a tablet computer, then RT doesn't really make a different. Just don't expect to load your favorite PC games onto this and play them. It won't be happening.
The actual screen is about 8.5 inches long, which is pretty large, and the tablet is surprising light. Battery life with this device is amazing. One charge should last you an entire day of PDF reading at a convention -- no problem. A secondary battery/keyboard dongle can be purchased as well, but it's not really needed. This tablet has a proprietary charging cable.
The apps for RT are lackluster at this point, so you'll be running just PDF, internet, and Office 2013 with this tablet. The PDF viewer is very, very powerful though -- which is excellent for quick loading and searching. So if that all sounds good then the price is right too. Originally priced at $630, it's been dropped to $300 by Dell. They just raised the price back up to $450, but if you do some searching, you should be able to find it at $300 from various retailers online. The keyboard dongle would run you about another $120.
Samsung Galaxy Tab 3 8.0 - This is another Android OS tablet, but is slightly larger than the Nexus 7. It's also slimmer, as it's a little newer. It has a decent battery life and goregous display, but has been known to have occasional performance issues. The Tab 3.8.0 is essentially a simpler, smaller model of the Galaxy Note 8.0. The note is slightly wider, and comes with a pen, but adds another $100 to the price tag. So if you're looking to just look up PDFs on a budget, I'd vote the Tab over the Note. The charging cable is also proprietary.
The Tab 3.8.0 comes in 8 gb or 16 gb size, and the price variance between the two is about $20. On Samsung's website, the Tab 3.8.0 is listed at $300, but you can find it for around $200 easily (see Amazon). And at that price, it's a good contender against the Nexus -- if you want display size over storage space.
My point in posting this is that tablets aren't the super-expensive devices of the future they were 5 or 10 years ago. They're cheaper than smartphones and will ultimately save you a lot of money in the long run.
Five hardback core books is around $250.
One $200 tablet and five PDF core books is around $250.
You can do the math after that. They're a good investment if you're looking to continue playing RPGs in general, and they'll save you a lot of back pain if you're actually toting those fifteen books to every game.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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You can do the math after that. They're a good investment if you're looking to continue playing RPGs in general, and they'll save you a lot of back pain if you're actually toting those fifteen books to every game.OK, but I want to support my local gaming store, AND I like hardcover books.
Support your gaming store by purchasing minis, occasional books, snacks, drinks, and drumming them up business by drawing new players in to PFS.
Many methods exist for showing support to an FLGS that don't require you to purchase all your books from them.
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You can do the math after that. They're a good investment if you're looking to continue playing RPGs in general, and they'll save you a lot of back pain if you're actually toting those fifteen books to every game.OK, but I want to support my local gaming store, AND I like hardcover books.Support your gaming store by purchasing minis, occasional books, snacks, drinks, and drumming them up business by drawing new players in to PFS.
Many methods exist for showing support to an FLGS that don't require you to purchase all your books from them.
I mentioned this in the other thread a few weeks ago, but I really am running out of stuff to buy to support the local stores. I buy books as PDFs, I already have as many minis and dice as I can stand, the stores don't sell snacks, so the soda machine tends to be the only way for me to spend money when I play there. I actually wish there was more stuff I could buy direct from the store instead of from this web site. But I have to buy the PDFs so I can carry them around easily on my tablet.
There's really no simple solution to this. It's the new economic reality, and it's killing a lot of local businesses.
In the mean time, I'll be picking up the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game locally instead of direct from Paizo, just because it's a way to support the local store that lets us use their space to play.
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Because none of those other books you listed provide rules for the game that are absolutely necessary to run it. The Core does. The Bestiary books do. Those are required, because you need to have the required rules.
Everything else is optional. If the player chooses to use it, it shouldnt be the GMs job to have it available for them.
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ok so back to the core book topic, some other people seem to agree that a core assumption would be good.
if your source material is out of.
Ultimate magic, combat, equipment, core book, or PG... your good you dont need to bring that , the GM should know it and life moves onIf your material is out of anything else you best have it on hand.
That what i brought up originally. You would still support your local stores... this sit would still make money. So what is the issue with that thought... give me a reason why not.
I'll give you a few.
1. I don't have the rules memorized from everything even in the core rulebook. It's impractical to expect GMs to know every spell, every feat, every class feature, every archetype, etc.
2. People make mistakes in things they think they have memorized. It happens all the time. For example, I thought Stoneskin was a third level spell for wizards/sorcerers, and I had potions of it. Oops, it's a fourth level spell. Without a book to back something up, we're just hoping we're always right.
3. I can't tell a player to look at an ability again to make sure it does what they think it does. I have to stop the game and do it myself.
4. People disagree on rules regularly. Without a book, the GM will just have to make a decision in every case. While I usually do that anyway in many situations that last longer than a minute, some people will be upset by it.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Let's pretend, for a minute, that Mike might require all GMs to buy the Core Rulebook, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Equipment, and the Advanced Players Guide -- all of them -- and bring them all to the table, every time they run a game, so that they might reference spells/feats/magic items that a player might want to use.
In that world, what's the initial outlay of cash for a player to start GMing? Either $50 of PDFs and a tablet, or else about $180 worth of books. (Bear in mind, I know at least three 4-star GMs who don't own anything other than the Core Rulebook, Bestiaries I and II, and the Field Guide. They GM a lot, and refer to the PRD when they're prepping their scenarios at home.)
I don't think that's a reasonable burden to place on everyone who wants to GM. The campaign would fold, almost immediately.
--
neferphras, far be it from me to suggest that you actually have entitlement issues, but you should understand that that's how you're coming across. You want somebody else to carry your books for you. (And buy them, to boot.)
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There are also sometimes the issue of people running uncommon builds from the main sources. A cavalier with the animal companion who has the Additional Traits Feat, as well as Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes, etc. Or how about a Tetori Grappler, A kitsune with Realistic Likeness, a Musket Master with Deadshot, a Sunderer Fighter, Dirty Trick Rogue, or even a halfling that can provide a large AC bonus by standing next to you, while still providing ways to negate/redirect attacks.
Not everyone will know EVERYTHING. This is a fact.
Actually what I find interesting is that the GM doesn't have to bring hard-copies of the books he can use the pdf's. But there is an onus on the player to provide them, whilst the GM may have that at his finger-tips. Of course, as Mr Brock said in home-PFS games all you need is a copy of the rules at the table. (It was referenced in the above thread, in the clarification).
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Actually what I find interesting is that the GM doesn't have to bring hard-copies of the books he can use the pdf's. But there is an onus on the player to provide them, whilst the GM may have that at his finger-tips. Of course, as Mr Brock said in home-PFS games all you need is a copy of the rules at the table. (It was referenced in the above thread, in the clarification).
Actually players can bring PDFs or print outs of PDF pages with the watermark showing they own the PDF.
Player's can't use the PRD as a source to claim a feat, spell, class, etc. GM's can use the PRD for reference and prep.
EDIT: nor can they claim use via having Herolab.
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Infernal Healing isn't in the Cheliax book, its in Inner Sea Guide - which is another hardback rather than a paperback.
Realize that I carry the Andoran book for Liberating Command, the Chel. book for Infernal Healing,
;)
Moreover, it is in the Gods and Magic booklet. Lots of neat things about gods in that one.
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Infernal Healing isn't in the Cheliax book, its in Inner Sea Guide - which is another hardback rather than a paperback.
Realize that I carry the Andoran book for Liberating Command, the Chel. book for Infernal Healing,
;)
that's right darn it! I need the Chel book for burning disarm, not the Infernal Healing - which my cleric can't cast anyway.
just goes to show that old gamers should rely not on memory...|
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Are we still talking about GM expectations?well yes i think
so if i bring just the printed out pages, and gms are supposed to have access to the core 5 books mentioned, am i good to go?
GMs are not required to have anything at the table book wise except Core - they can use the PRD for the things they need in their games. As many have been saying - you do not have to use those spells. And if you are a non-spontaneous caster, you can pick different spells and lower your load.
From a company standpoint PFS exists to sell material - books, PDFs, gaming aids. It should not be a surprise that to use something you have to own the source.
In a culture where many segments of society routinely, and often without thought, pirate copyrighted works, it should not be a surprise people are concerned with having to actually own an item. Because of the routine and thoughtless pirating of copyrighted works, Paizo cannot afford to let anyone have book page copies, because they have no proof you bought it (and the whole second hand book market is something else altogether that the copyright holders lose over).
Yes, a book owner has more issues than a PDF owner.
In a previous thread it was described that after the big convention season that they would look at some sort of proof of purchase to allow copies from books - but even that means that if you bought it from non-Paizo sources you might be out of luck.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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In the mean time, I'll be picking up the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game locally instead of direct from Paizo, just because it's a way to support the local store that lets us use their space to play.
I was going to do this, but then my wife saw the PACG promotional cards; the only way you could guarantee to get all of them was to buy the card game on subscription.
So I've dropped the rulebooks from my subscription (although I'll still buy the PDFs from Paizo), and I'll be buying the hardbacks from my FLGS.
It might cost me a few $$ more overall, but not enough to make a significant difference to the bottom line.
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ok so back to the core book topic, some other people seem to agree that a core assumption would be good.
if your source material is out of.
Ultimate magic, combat, equipment, core book, or PG... your good you dont need to bring that , the GM should know it and life moves onIf your material is out of anything else you best have it on hand.
That what i brought up originally. You would still support your local stores... this sit would still make money. So what is the issue with that thought... give me a reason why not.
Just to be clear, you're suggesting that the burden of ownership and knowledge of anything from the APG, UM, UC, and UE be transferred from the players to the GM?
So, what are the alternatives? Assuming we want PFS to continue and Paizo to stay in business...
1) Paizo writes and develops rules and choices, which we print out for free? No thanks, that's how game companies die.
2) Paizo walls off PFS to be core-only? Fair, but hurts sales of new products. See #1.
3) Paizo cuts back on its development staff, so there aren't as many options. Possible, and many smaller game companies run this way. Is this what you want?
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In the mean time, I'll be picking up the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game locally instead of direct from Paizo, just because it's a way to support the local store that lets us use their space to play.I was going to do this, but then my wife saw the PACG promotional cards; the only way you could guarantee to get all of them was to buy the card game on subscription.
I think what they mean by 'guarentee' is that youll get them straight from Paizo, instead of having to hope you get to your retailer on time to get the promo card with the pack it comes with. At least thats how I understand them to be sending the promos out.
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Why is this conversation still happening?
1) If you GM, you can use the PRD to help you in preparing, in case the scenarios reference things that you don't have access to. You are not responsible for knowing or being able to look up on-the-fly anything that is not in the Core Rulebook.
2) If you play, the onus is on you to provide access to non-Core material that your character uses, in case the GM doesn't have it and doesn't have access to the 'net from the game space. You can do that by bringing the book, bringing a legal copy of the PDF on a device of your choice, or by printing out a page from a PDF that you own and that shows your email in the watermark. If you don't want to have to bring a book, then don't use stuff from that book.
___
As an aside, neferphras, I challenge you to refrain from playing in favour of GMing for your local community or home group over the next few weeks, and then revisit this thread and re-read what you're asking GMs to be responsible for. I expect that your attitude will change significantly, and you might understand why a lot of people in this thread are seeing your request as unreasonable.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I think what they mean by 'guarentee' is that youll get them straight from Paizo, instead of having to hope you get to your retailer on time to get the promo card with the pack it comes with. At least thats how I understand them to be sending the promos out.In the mean time, I'll be picking up the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game locally instead of direct from Paizo, just because it's a way to support the local store that lets us use their space to play.I was going to do this, but then my wife saw the PACG promotional cards; the only way you could guarantee to get all of them was to buy the card game on subscription.
Not all of the promotional cards are going to be available from the retail stores, and even for the ones that are you can't be sure that your FLGS will have enough available (although I'm pretty sure mine would reserve one for me).
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@Neferphras: Spells are almost exactly one of the worst offenders for having to be looked up mid-game.
Is that spell affected by:
Silence?
Having your spell component pouch sundered?
Having your holy symbol disarmed?
Wielding a weapon while using a light, medium or tower shield?
Usable while grappled?
SR?
What gets reduced/negated by the saving throw?
Target/Area of Effect?
Actual written effect?
Spells can be ugly to adjudicate, even if you have the rules source for the spell. Without it? Sorry, Charlie.
And that is a commonly used Core spell.
@Rerednaw: If you look around, Paizo, among others, sells the pawn bases as a separate product.
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Buy the PDFs; be ready to pull up your purchased PDF list if someone asks for it.
Then use d20pfsrd for all your lookup needs :).
And discover that it has errors.
Latest found: combat scabbard is listed as a weapon accessory, but it was changed to a Martial weapon with the Improvised special ability with an errata to the Adventurer Armory in July 2011.
GMs are not required to have anything at the table book wise except Core - they can use the PRD for the things they need in their games. As many have been saying - you do not have to use those spells. And if you are a non-spontaneous caster, you can pick different spells and lower your load.Are we still talking about GM expectations?well yes i think
so if i bring just the printed out pages, and gms are supposed to have access to the core 5 books mentioned, am i good to go?
Yes, so thus there is less of an onus on GM's than players. Which is doubly interesting because GM's usually purchase more 'books' than players and it creates a strong divide between the 2 groups. This divide seems to be getting wider, at least on the forums - which is not representative of the real world, when it should be getting smaller as that would help Pathfinder community understand each other better.
Buy the PDFs; be ready to pull up your purchased PDF list if someone asks for it.
Then use d20pfsrd for all your lookup needs :).
And discover that it has errors.
Latest found: combat scabbard is listed as a weapon accessory, but it was changed to a Martial weapon with the Improvised special ability with an errata to the Adventurer Armory in July 2011.
But that also means the Adventurer Armoury print version is also wrong. And the d20pfsrd is more likely to be updated than my print version.
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But that also means the Adventurer Armoury print version is also wrong. And the d20pfsrd is more likely to be updated than my print version.Buy the PDFs; be ready to pull up your purchased PDF list if someone asks for it.
Then use d20pfsrd for all your lookup needs :).
And discover that it has errors.
Latest found: combat scabbard is listed as a weapon accessory, but it was changed to a Martial weapon with the Improvised special ability with an errata to the Adventurer Armory in July 2011.
The second printing (it is one of the few [the only one?] soft cover with a second printing) includes the corrections and there is a official errata that can be downloaded here for free.
So there are all the reasons to have a up to date printed version.Heirloom Weapon has been heavily redone, not printing the errata page and relying on the outdated version would create problems.
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Yes, so thus there is less of an onus on GM's than players. Which is doubly interesting because GM's usually purchase more 'books' than players and it creates a strong divide between the 2 groups. This divide seems to be getting wider, at least on the forums - which is not representative of the real world, when it should be getting smaller as that would help Pathfinder community understand each other better.GMs are not required to have anything at the table book wise except Core - they can use the PRD for the things they need in their games. As many have been saying - you do not have to use those spells. And if you are a non-spontaneous caster, you can pick different spells and lower your load.Are we still talking about GM expectations?well yes i think
so if i bring just the printed out pages, and gms are supposed to have access to the core 5 books mentioned, am i good to go?
I'm sorry, as your Gm would you like me to wipe your nose at the table as well? How is the GM supposed to know which books you need for your character?
When does the onus for being responsible for your own character finally fall on the player of that character?
The GM is already responsible for the scenario, minis, maps, core assumption and whatever else they are bringing. Let's not make the responsible for the player's character as well. There is enough on GMs as it is for providing a game that people don't immediately come tot he boards and complain about.
I'd love to see the fallout if we had a thread started about bad players... guarentee that ones of the boards that are only players and not GMs would start complaining about how they are treated on the boards, but yet as GMs we are just supposed to shut up and take it.
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Ok slight derail but at least marginally related to this topic....
This discussion has me thinking about my son. Next year he will be old enough to play PFS at Gencon. He currently plays in my home game and is more than capable, but he uses all my pdf's. Not that it matters for a home game, but it will for PFS. Am I required to buy him his own copy of any pdf he wants to use content from?
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Mike Brock has said that members of the same household that are sitting at the same table may use a "family set" of books. He has said that if you're sitting at different tables, each person should have their own copy, but I don't know what that means for kids using their parents' legally purchased PDFs. At the very least, he'd need access to them, so printed pages or his own tablet.
Your phrasing, "Next year he'll be old enough to play at Gen Con..." suggests to me that he would probably be at your table anyway, but it might be worth asking the question for later on. I'll poke around and see if I can find if/where this particular situation was addressed already.
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This discussion has me thinking about my son. Next year he will be old enough to play PFS at Gencon. He currently plays in my home game and is more than capable, but he uses all my pdf's. Not that it matters for a home game, but it will for PFS. Am I required to buy him his own copy of any pdf he wants to use content from?
You'll be glad to know that Mike Brock has already stated that you aren't required to buy another PDF:
If a family member, significant other, or other members of the same household living together (such as college room mates) are playing at the same table, they may share the same resources instead of having duplicates of the same resource at the same table.
If two members of the same household wish to share a PDF, and find themselves playing at separate tables, one can utilize an electronic version on an iPad or similar item, while the other utilizes a printed watermarked copy.