A Community for Good


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

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Ryan Dancey wrote:


If I were you, my whole approach now would be to create a community not to set policies. Gather together a large number of people who share common objectives and create a shared sense of purpose.

Worrying about alignments, reputation, and security policies is not going to have much effect on your long term success at this juncture. Those are things that are still going to undergo a tremendous amount of crowdforging and will almost certainly change many times in Early Enrollment as we all seek good compromises.

In response to this notion, I would like to see those interested in playing a more cooperative and benevolent character establish a loose community around defending the ideals of being able to successfully play Good characters with the intent of affecting positive change in our server. This is not speaking to a Good-alignment as defined by whatever the game mechanics end up being, but as the Good alignment described by the tabletop version. Guardians, Builder, Healers, Mediators, Vigilantes and all of the other good archetypes listed.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/additional-rules

Bluddwolf wrote:
Wolf or Lamb, which will you be? There is no Sheepdog in PvP (no offense).

I am also speaking to those who would vehemently disagree with this statement. If there are no sheepdogs, then we shall create them. We shall work to provide an encouraging environment for the lambs to do their play and work. It shall not be an easy endeavor, and there will be losses along the way. But if we stand together and stand strong, we can create a place for lambs and sheepdogs in this realm of wolves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock_guardian_dog

Anyone else wishing to strive for this mission? Anyone willing to help provide a foothold for benevolence to blossom? Naysayers need not speak up. I am not interested in attempts to sabotage the endeavor. It shall succeed or fail through strength or lack of supporters.

Goblin Squad Member

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There IS a sheepdog role in PVP and I've played is successfully many times. I've tried the whole wolf thing before. I built a pirate ship, loaded up with pirate weapons, hunted down a trader, hit him with a cruise disrupter and demanded he hand over his goods or die. He refused to hand them over, and I... couldn't bring myself to kill someone who had done nothing to me, or anyone else.

This was preceded and proceeded by years of killing people who gave me a good reason to do so. Nothing tastes as sweet to me as the tears of griefers.

So I instinctually will not harm sheep, but hunt the wolves with a vengeance. What would you call that except a sheepdog?

I will of course support this, but I'm sure you already knew that. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:

...

In response to this notion, I would like to see those interested in playing a more cooperative and benevolent character establish a loose community around defending the ideals of being.

Brilliant thought: I certainly want to hear more about this popular uprising!

Goblin Squad Member

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I'm planning on being a sheepdog, a sheep-dog, or a dog-sheep. Not sure which, yet. Maybe I'll call it a shepherd, which has a connotation of protection and guidance, but also is also a class of sheepdog.

I think there is a huge resource in somewhat casual players. The sheepdogs that can protect the weak but industrious, and mold militias out of new-to-PvP - they might do well. They should have an edge over small bands of wolves.

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:
...Builder, Healers...

Check and check. But I hope you already knew that :)

Goblin Squad Member

Woof

Goblin Squad Member

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Protect the sheep , hunt down the wolves , don't play a good aligned character like they are evil, count me in. I would like to see half the map being a place like you describe , the other half being where evil alignment type deeds are the norm . I hope to see an online fantasy world that is played like something out of a fantasy book. We can make it what we want it to be.

Goblin Squad Member

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Half the map would certainly be ambitious! Though I dare not set my expectations quite so high. I can also imagine some borders being a gradual fade into 'sometimes bad stuff goes down there, since we cannot watch it a lot' and other borders being stark boundaries, where if you cross the line of skulls, danger is sure to find you! That would be very flavorful.

And we'll probably wind up with smaller spots spread throughout. Unless our good aligned companies and settlements really band together to create a larger good-aligned region.

Goblin Squad Member

I kinda feel like this sub-community already exists, even if not officially.


Is there any way to begin the process now? A nation or settlement name that people can start to rally around. I imagine there will be some seperartion to begin with, but with some fast consolidation, it could become big quickly.


Just saw the empyrean order, people on that already

Goblin Squad Member

Count me in. Like Andius, I've been on the killer end of things quite a bit. Unfortunately, since I got married in May and will hopefully be starting a family in the next couple years, I'm much more of a casual gamer these days. Still, I think I'll be able to bring something small to the table, so count me in on this initiative.

Goblin Squad Member

hopefully to no surprise you can count me in as well;)

Goblin Squad Member

First I would like to welcome you to my way of thinking. You are finally realizing what it is to become a wolf. The more players willing to enter the PVP fray, the more content there will be for all of us.

Let me correct your concept of a “sheepdog” and its role. I sheepdog is a warden, it stay in and about the sheep and it wards off predators. It may also help in herding the sheep into a better area, more safe for them.

A sheepdog never hunts down and exacts revenge upon the wolves that threaten the sheep. This is why I metaphorically welcome you to my way of thinking. Only wolves can take the fight to wolves.

I also welcome you to another sub-community as well, although I don’t think you fully realize it yourselves (I will get to this later)

”Andius” wrote:

Re: The Treaty of Rovagug

[IMG]by Andius » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:50 pm

The Treaty of Rovagug Explained

This is a rough draft of the Treaty of Rovagug, in order to provide enough details for a sensible debate about what should be added, left out, and changed. The final intention of this treaty is to present a means for the community to show a unified front in opposing groups taking actions they deem harmful to the community. It is not exclusively an anti-griefer treaty, and being condemned or having war declared on you through the Treaty of Rovagug does not mean you are a "griefer." It simply means that your actions are harmful to the community, whether you intend them as such or not.

1. “The Community” : I know form our conversations that you do not mean to limit your philosophy to just those that agree with it, but to all of the community, whether they like it or not. You believe that you speak for “The Community”, not just “Your Community”.

2. “Opposing groups that take actions that YOU deem to be harmful to the community”.

3. This treaty does not limit itself to just anti griefing, but any action that you deem harmful.

4. The result of being “harmful” in your opinion is condemnation or death.

”Andius” wrote:

Article 1 - Structure

Section 1 - Major Signatories: The idea of major signatories is obviously that they should be groups who hold settlements, or are roughly equal in power and influence to settlement holding organizations. The treaty of Rovagug aims to represent each organization equally to some degree, but in the end the treaty of Rovagug is meant to represent the will of those enforcing it. Not the entire community, many of whom will believe destructive behavior is acceptable and should be tolerated. As such the power should be granted to those who have the power to enforce it, or else the decrees made by the Treaty of Rovagug will not be taken seriously. To this end the representatives are loosely modeled after the US senate, which strikes compromise between having to hold power (As you must be an official state to have senators) and granting equal representation (Each state get's two senators.)

1. Equality to some degree, is not equality. It sets up a hierarchy of thought or decision making. I’m sure that if the consensus was to remove the “server wide community” from this treaty and just limit it to the signatories, you will abandon the idea again. Same goes for it becoming just a community based anti griefer , you want to limit play styles you disagree with as well.

Andius wrote:

TEO is as likely to provide services to the chaotic as it is to the lawful. We will be employing our own rogues, smugglers, and other chaotic-good individuals. It is unlikely we will allow any evil players to join TEO. That does not necessarily mean we won't allow evil groups (Especially non-RPK evil groups) in our greater alliance, and we have made no demands the Viel cease their efforts with Shadow Haven.

We are primarily concerned with evil due to the threat it poses to good, and any aggressive actions against evil will be prompted by a threat they pose either to us or the general populous. Not simply "because they are evil."

1. You state that being Evil is by its very nature a threat. You will therefore direct your aggression at them, because they pose that “threat” in your mind. But, your contention that it is not because they are simply evil, is a contradiction.

2. This is alignment profiling. You assume that all evils are a threat, but instead of doing the “Stop and Frisk”, you will just kill them.

Andius” wrote:
whether you intend them as such or not.

3. Whether the intent of the evil’s actions are meant to cause harm or not.

From Andius’ signature on his forums:
[quote”Grimpy Mel”]"Furthermore since Andius is a Head of State, by definition he IS a lawful authority..." -Grumpy Mel

Summary:

This "Community of Good" is best described as:

Quote:

Lawful Evil

A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.

Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.

Lawful evil represents methodical, intentional, and organized evil.

So I welcome you to the sub-community of Lawful Evil. The PVP content that you will bring to the game will be most welcome. I expected with prodding I could bring you around, and I would like to leave you with one of my favorite quotes:

“Look at the strength in your body, the desire in your heart, I gave you this! “ ~ Thulsa Doom

I do not begrudge you to form your own community, with your own sense of purpose. I do not begrudge you your freedom to play the game the way you wish to play the game. I do want you to realize the meaning behind your words, and how contradictory or even hypocritical they sound to some (and not just me).

But what I will not grant you is this sense that your play style is more legitimate or positive for the community than mine, or any other PVP oriented or Evil aligned player’s play style.

I will also not grant you the position of being the arbiter of what is “harmful action” of the community as a whole. I’m certain based on our conversations, and your written words, all non consensual PVP will be deemed harmful in your view and you will attempt to stop it. Your methods will be to do the very thing against them, that you claim you are trying to stop.

So again, I welcome your Lawful Evil community to the forums. I as a Chaotic Neutral Bandit will enjoy the “Wolves vs. Wolves” that you will bring to the table.

Goblin Squad Member

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How about you stop hijacking threads?

Goblin Squad Member

Character Alignment

See you on the other side! Tbh I hope to see lots of diversity. Also hope to see LG community supported by the design.

On sheepdogs: Rhodesian Ridgeback, Barbet etc are lovely dogs, if you've met any. Very potent defense as most wild animals make a risk/reward assessment: One minor injury is life-threatening for animals and they know it. Eg Honey Badger is formidable opponent for this reason.

Goblin Squad Member

Papaver wrote:
How about you stop hijacking threads?

I hijacked nothing, I welcomed their settlement and game play on multiple occasions.

I look to playing a LN or LG character as my DT, however I don't see how he would fit in with such a heirarchal, vengeful and violent community philosophy.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
I hijacked nothing,

Yes you did. Nothing of what you quoted has to do with this thread or even anything adjesent topic wise to this thread.

You keep on clinging to you opposition to The Treaty of Rovagug and use every opportunity to state that you are against it even if the topic at hand has nothing to do with it.

This thread has nothing to do with The Treaty of Rovagug so keep The Treaty of Rovagug out of it. simple as that.

Goblin Squad Member

AvenaOats wrote:

Character Alignment

See you on the other side! Tbh I hope to see lots of diversity. Also hope to see LG community supported by the design.
.

I hope there is as well. My DT would be best RPd as a LG Monk. But he will not seek out and destroy evil, he will only interfere with their actions when he comes upon them. He will also make the effort to convince them to stop, while coming short if killing them if he can.

Goblin Squad Member

Papaver wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
I hijacked nothing,
Yes you did. Nothing of what you quoted has to do with this thread or even anything adjesent topic wise to this thread..

You are failing to see or recognize the forest through the trees. The OP is proposing the creation of a community, based on the gaming principles and beliefs that Andius holds.

The OP contends that the purpose of this community is to affect a change throughout the entire community. Andius' written and spoken record is that the change will be affected through threat of condemnation and force.

I use Andius' own words to point out a counter point, not to his or the OP's right to create such a community, but at the contention that this community speaks for the entire PFO community. The contention that to oppose this community is to oppose being a "good member" of the PFO community.

I also used Andius' words to contest the OP's contention that this community represents the alignment view of "Good", according to the D20 definitions. I have shown evidence that its founding principles are more closely aligned with Lawful Evil, than any of the Good alignments. There is noting wrong with it being Lawful Evil, the only thing wrong is the lack of understanding what the good alignments truly represent.

I fully support your right to create and join this community. I welcome the PvP opportunities that it will create for both my company, and any if those who do not wish to be labeled as "harmful to the community or for the game."

I have also stated, I would support such community with my DT, but it would not match my RP intentions as a LG or LN Monk to associate with it, in its current founding principles.

I intend to affect change through his actions of generosity and service, not through vengeance and violence.

Goblin Squad Member

What you do is putting a bunch of words into the Lifedrgn's and Andius' mouth to make it fit your point. At least try to stick to the topic and don't go around inventing crap to make your point.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

@ Lifedragn,

I support your idea of creating a truly cooperative and benevolent community. I will protect the weak and ward off those that threaten them. I will wander the River Kingdoms and through my deeds of healing and generosity, affect the change you wish to represent.

When confronted with evil, I will try to dissuade it from its path, resist it at my own demise, or defeat it if all else fails. I will not seek it out or kill it where it sleeps.

If this fits within your concept, then I may find myself supporting such an endeavor.

Goblin Squad Member

@lifedragn, I suggest that you edit the OP and delete Bluddwolf's quote and any reference to anything he said. His comments here are so far from the reality of your OP .... what word comes to mind? Calling what you propose Lawful Evil is just an attempt to put himself at the center of the conversation. This thread will be ruined if it becomes all about what a troublemaker says .

Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:

A sheepdog never hunts down and exacts revenge upon the wolves that threaten the sheep. This is why I metaphorically welcome you to my way of thinking. Only wolves can take the fight to wolves.

Why not read about the subject before stating something that is blatantly wrong. The article I linked even states:

"Livestock guardians may actively look for predators within protected territory to catch and destroy them, and there are known cases of dogs luring coyotes to the source of food to hunt them."

The difference between Sheepdogs and Wolves is that we will leave the sheep alone. And this community is meant to include the Sheep as well as the Sheepdogs.

We are not wearing your label because we see your playstyle as fundamentally different from our own. Without the existence of wolves, many of us would happily become sheep. We would not turn to prey upon the flock. We are not wolves because attacking sheep is not in our nature.

These sheepdogs are not about hunting down evil wherever it can be found. These sheepdogs are about defending from bandits and slavers and various other other aspects that may prey upon us. We are not advocating attacking anyone because they are evil. We are attacking because they have been performing these activities in the area very recently or because they are well known for performing such activities.

You also assume much about the nature of this community based on my personal associations with Andius and his statements made regarding TEO policy and the Treaty of Rovagug. This is not a crusade led by Andius. This is not an initiative to hunt down evil wherever it exists.

This is an initiative to rally those who do not wish to be preyed upon into a group that mingles them with those who seek to prevent them from being preyed upon. The idea is to establish connections and contacts between people who wish to promote certain ideals and those who will assist them.

We are not establishing a settlement or nation. Many of us already belong to such groups. And while I certainly invite those who share my vision to join TEO or one of our allied groups, I am not going to be turning this initiative into a recruitment drive.

We are not establishing a formal treaty or any binding agreements.

At this time, we are merely gathering like-minded individuals. Nations, Settlements, Treaties, all of that can be discussed as we get closer to EE. Those things may arise from this community, but they will not be mandatory to this community.

I am not arguing that you must be part of this community for us to have a "good community". A good community is a non-toxic atmosphere where we can discuss and disagree in a civil and respectful manner. This is about a Community of Good, similar to your Outlaw Council being a place for Chaotics. I have already stated that we are seeking to advocate what is Good and promote it in the game by definitions spelled out by the tabletop rules and not by game mechanics. I expect a majority of Sheep to be Good-Aligned and a fair number of Sheep-Dogs to be neutral by actual mechanics based on their actions.

Bluddwolf, you may attempt to pick and choose from the message here. You may attempt to label us as you choose based on whatever misunderstanding you have of our purpose or of the nature of Good and Evil. But I feel that it is pretty clear that you are trying to shout loudly and often to get your point across because you hope repetition will lead people to think that your position is true. I want this thread to stay focused on those who wish to form a Community of Good. If you wish to argue whether or not we are actually representing good, then I invite you to start a new thread for that argument in order to keep this one clean.

Further posts in this thread trying to disprove the purpose or otherwise naysay this community from yourself will be ignored and left unresponded by myself as this is not an argument thread. I will respond to you in a new thread if you create one (possibly after the weekend).

I highly suggest everyone else take this same stance. We do not want this thread turning into a fight. Thanks!

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:
similar to your Outlaw Council being a place for Chaotics

Technically not just for chaotics, otherwise I'd have nothing to do with it. My group will be aiming for very lawful, only we won't be following normal social laws, but rather our own codes.

We, and I speak for my group only, are not opposed to good players nor to this community of good. Goodness has certain weaknesses, and we don't intend to allow those weaknesses to stand in our way of establishing order. Too much harassing of newer players, and even not so new players who are weak, is not in our vision of an orderly society.

Goblin Squad Member

@Bludd: had you only put your monks responds here i would have congratulated you for good roleplaying.
But first puting someone elses worths into the op´s mouth to prove the endeaver is in fact LE to then declare possible support through your lg monk?
i fail to see the point.

As you obviously don´t see the op point.
You obviously don´t know livedeagon at all, otherwise you would just read what he actually wrote in his initial post instead of making it something else.

Oh, and before you label my comment as:

Bluddwolf wrote:
Then in fly your lap dogs... crying and whining about how ungrateful we all are not to place ourselves under your(=Andius´s) yoke.

This is not what i do, i just tell you, you got this wrong.

Nobody in TEO is Andius`s Lap dog, we can have and express our own toughts. and O_O we don´t even have to ask permission too do so.

Goblin Squad Member

Notmyrealname wrote:
@lifedragn, I suggest that you edit the OP and delete Bluddwolf's quote and any reference to anything he said. His comments here are so far from the reality of your OP .... what word comes to mind? Calling what you propose Lawful Evil is just an attempt to put himself at the center of the conversation. This thread will be ruined if it becomes all about what a troublemaker says .

Unfortunately, I am not sure how to edit nor delete posts after a given amount of time. Open discussion is welcome, but as I have stated, I would like it to occur in a separate thread in order to avoid this one from being hijacked.

Goblin Squad Member

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Qiang Tian Zsu wrote:

@ Lifedragn,

I support your idea of creating a truly cooperative and benevolent community. I will protect the weak and ward off those that threaten them. I will wander the River Kingdoms and through my deeds of healing and generosity, affect the change you wish to represent.

When confronted with evil, I will try to dissuade it from its path, resist it at my own demise, or defeat it if all else fails. I will not seek it out or kill it where it sleeps.

If this fits within your concept, then I may find myself supporting such an endeavor.

In case it was not clear in my lengthier reply, yes. This path fits within the concept. If anything, a Good community requires agents of peace even more than it does crusaders against evil. Crusaders halt evil. Redeemers spread good. If only crusaders were to exist, attrition would dim the light of any beacon.

@Gedi - I think the flip to "support" from the LG monk is partially feeling out whether we are promoting a 'destroy evil at all costs' stance or not. It was more tacit, conditional support.

@Blaeringr - Our position regarding you and your affiliates will be directly related to whom your actions are directed against. As a group, I do not want to gather up the torches and pitchforks if you decide an undead army is the best way to put down unwelcome slavers in your territory. Individuals may take up the cause, based on their personal stance against evil. We probably won't be best friends nor make good neighbors, but so long as you are not frequently victimizing the innocent, then your methods should be fine by us.

Goblin Squad Member

@Lifedragn undead to put down slavers? That's like expecting a lawful good person to use a horde of spiders to chase out the elves.

Goblin Squad Member

I doubt I'll be a very effective sheep dog but even a Jack Russell or a Yorkie can make a lot of noise and annoy the wolves (before it gets swallowed whole). Count me in too.

Goblin Squad Member

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I am for dynamic balance: No extreme should dominate the game uncontested.

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:

You also assume much about the nature of this community based on my personal associations with Andius and his statements made regarding TEO policy and the Treaty of Rovagug. This is not a crusade led by Andius. This is not an initiative to hunt down evil wherever it exists.

This is an initiative to rally those who do not wish to be preyed upon into a group that mingles them with those who seek to prevent them from being preyed upon. The idea is to establish connections and contacts between people who wish to promote certain ideals and those who will assist them.

@Lifedragn,

If you are in fact able to keep this initiative separate and pure, from the other TEO policies and initiatives, then as I said before.... I support it.

If it turn out to be yet another one of those "If you don't play by our rules, you are toxic to the community", then I was right in the first place. I hope you can prove me wrong, because it is quite frankly tiring to read the steady stream of "this is a fight for the soul of the community" or "evil characters are a threat to all that is good, and is harmful to the community" or the worse of the comments, "Chaotic Evil is for as**** and their settlements will suck.'

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, since you have said this is not meant to be anything but a community of Good Aligned characters, working to defend and protect the weak.

I just thought I should note, I have no issue with you arming yourselves and hunting down those that have harmed you. That is a part of the game. What I vehemently disagree with is the label that one play style is "harmful to the community" if it comes from one segment of the population, but it is perfectly acceptable from another.

Goblin Squad Member

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Lifedragn wrote:
Naysayers need not speak up. I am not interested in attempts to sabotage the endeavor.

Regarding the long screed against the Treaty of Rovugug, Sheepdogs must be LE, etc... I guess the entire "Be Respectful" thing lasted about a week, huh?

Seriously, Bluddworth - "Be Brave", admit you were wrong in diverting the thread with that, and remove that post so the thread can be cleaned up.

Mods: this can be removed after Bluddworth's 4:43 post is gone.

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:
Lifedragn wrote:
Naysayers need not speak up. I am not interested in attempts to sabotage the endeavor.

Regarding the long screed against the Treaty of Rovugug, Sheepdogs must be LE, etc... I guess the entire "Be Respectful" thing lasted about a week, huh?

Seriously, Bluddworth - "Be Brave", admit you were wrong in diverting the thread with that, and remove that post so the thread can be cleaned up.

Mods: this can be removed after Bluddworth's 4:43 post is gone.

You would not expect that an initiative proposed by one member of a company is not known, endorsed or influenced by other initiatives of the same company?

However, since Lifedragn has said the initiative he is proposing is not connected to or influenced by Andius' other initiatives, I will take his word for that. I have not had any other dealings with Lifedragn, and so he is entitled to be taken at his word.

If I did not question the motives, the clarification and distancing from the other Initiatives would never had been made.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
Urman wrote:
Lifedragn wrote:
Naysayers need not speak up. I am not interested in attempts to sabotage the endeavor.

Regarding the long screed against the Treaty of Rovugug, Sheepdogs must be LE, etc... I guess the entire "Be Respectful" thing lasted about a week, huh?

Seriously, Bluddworth - "Be Brave", admit you were wrong in diverting the thread with that, and remove that post so the thread can be cleaned up.

Mods: this can be removed after Bluddworth's 4:43 post is gone.

You would not expect that an initiative proposed by one member of a company is not known, endorsed or influenced by other initiatives of the same company?

However, since Lifedragn has said the initiative he is proposing is not connected to or influenced by Andius' other initiatives, I will take his word for that. I have not had any other dealings with Lifedragn, and so he is entitled to be taken at his word.

If I did not question the motives, the clarification and distancing from the other Initiatives would never had been made.

I've talked to many members of several organizations at length, and I believe that anything that any member of TEO proposes is their own idea, even when it is 'known endorsed, or influenced' by other members of the group which has self-selected for the same interests and ideals.

Nobody should have to say that they aren't associating one post with another; the default is that every top-level post is a new thought, unless it is stated otherwise, such has been several times with a note along the lines of "broken off from the X thread".

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:


I've talked to many members of several organizations at length, and I believe that anything that any member of TEO proposes is their own idea, even when it is 'known endorsed, or influenced' by other members of the group which has self-selected for the same interests and ideals.

This is very true. While we have collected around some shared central ideologies, we are still all quite individual and capable of driving our own initiatives. Several members of TEO have expressed support, but that is far different from being a TEO led initiative.

And to poke a little good-natured fun, if this was really Andius's baby do you think he could possibly have left off with only a single post here so far?

Questions were raised, and hopefully addressed. We need not nitpick over past posts. I have no desire to silence dissenting voices. As mentioned, I would favor future debate to be in separate threads, but we do not need to argue about removing what has already been said.

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