Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth (GM Reference)


Wrath of the Righteous

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magnuskn wrote:
Thanks, that seems like a great suggestion, Lochar. If only the module writer had thought of that instead of resorting to "use sound torture to get what I want" with her.

I think you and I are in agreement. I already stated that the "sound torture" for failure is too much and should be removed. I just think the earlier part about antagonizing her is fine.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Lochar wrote:

Honestly, there's a much easier answer to this but relies on your party having actually had morals in the four previous books.

If/When they fail a question, the entire cathedral is blasted by the sound, shattering the stained glass windows. It reforms into murals that depict the PCs at one point or another actually having followed the true answer to the question.

The PCs are dazed for a moment as Iomedae tells them to remember and wake up, before moving onto her next question.

Since she would True Rez them anyways, there's no particular need to actually roll damage dice or anything stupid such as that.

This is indeed a pretty good variant to the situation.

My only concern there is that by removing the actual game mechanics where your PCs are affected via damage and the like could be interpreted as "sugar coating" and "codling" the PCs. The Abyss isn't going to do this, and so Iomedae wants to make sure she chose the right heroes for the mission.

That said... the whole point of the first part of the adventure is to prepare them for the tough part of the AP, to let them learn a bit of backstory, and to be awed by a goddess. How you pull that off in your game is up to you, since you know your players better than me... but the method in the adventure should at least serve as a starting place.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

Iomedae isn't the most friendly of all the good gods, and she's sending them into what she fears might be a suicide mission, so she's trying to make damn sure the PCs can take what the Abyss has to give out. Which is as much psychological as it its physical, if not more so.

I can certainly see some players reacting negatively to the way she comports herself and treats some PCs. The comparison to a drill sergeant and boot camp is a good one, though.

Of course, if you think it'd work better to have her be less strict and more friendly in your game, by all means do so... but her personality, I feel, is accurately represented. If we wanted someone who was more friendly and supportive of the PCs in this position, we would have used Sarenrae or Shelyn—a deity who's pursuit of good isn't tempered or adjusted by an equal pursuit of something else (in Iomedae's case, Law).

Sorry, but in this case I am not buying it. The PC's already were in the Abyss. And I don't get how being lawful translates to blasting helpless guests with deadly sound.

Grand Lodge

Lord Snow wrote:

Another part I disliked so far (haven't finished reading yet) is the city of Blackburgh. Presenting it as a city where monsters wonder about and attack the PCs every now and then is... boring as hack.

If I ever play the adventure, I'll present the city as a sort of a dark reflection on urban loneliness. The city streets will be deserted, and echoing sounds of distant conversation could lead visitors in circles in it's bleak, empty streets. The physical confusion of the twisting alleys and empty houses should be like the physical manifestation that a lonely human could feel in a city - his social seclusion makes him feel lost, and in Blackburgh he will be literally lost. While the city is filled with abyssal life, for visitors it should be very hard to spot that. Encounters with demons will happen rarely, as the city is built in a way to prevent it's inhabitants from meeting each other.
It will, in short, be what a city in a labyrinth realm of torment should be like.

I don't entirely agree with your base idea of Blackburgh being boring, I do really like your idea for changing it to a labyrinth of despair and isolation. I'm still a bit away form that one (both of my groups are just about to wrap Sword of Valor), but I'm going to make sure this idea is rocked out for when they get there.


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Lord Snow wrote:

Thinking about it, I suspect part of the reason that the Iomedea section is so poorly executed is probably because of the (misguided) attempt to make it into an "encounter" with all the things an encounter entails - rolling dice, a chance to fail and just generally building the entire event as an obstacle for the players to overcome.

I think this is a bigger blunder than part 5 of Second Darkness, honestly. I'm surprised to see Paizo making the same mistake twice, especially given just how much the first time stung (I think most people still consider SD to be the worst AP despite colossal screw ups like Serpent's Skull that followed it).

Which "blunder" do you speak of, something to do with how the Elven authorities were depicted in that campaign?

I would say this is just as bad of a characterization fail as Erastil's misogyny. I could see Ragathiel battering people for not answering questions correctly, but he's a wrathful, impulsive son of an Archdevil. Iomedae is supposed to be a paragon of justice and righteousness.

Scarab Sages

James Jacobs wrote:
Lochar wrote:

Honestly, there's a much easier answer to this but relies on your party having actually had morals in the four previous books.

If/When they fail a question, the entire cathedral is blasted by the sound, shattering the stained glass windows. It reforms into murals that depict the PCs at one point or another actually having followed the true answer to the question.

The PCs are dazed for a moment as Iomedae tells them to remember and wake up, before moving onto her next question.

Since she would True Rez them anyways, there's no particular need to actually roll damage dice or anything stupid such as that.

This is indeed a pretty good variant to the situation.

My only concern there is that by removing the actual game mechanics where your PCs are affected via damage and the like could be interpreted as "sugar coating" and "codling" the PCs. The Abyss isn't going to do this, and so Iomedae wants to make sure she chose the right heroes for the mission.

That said... the whole point of the first part of the adventure is to prepare them for the tough part of the AP, to let them learn a bit of backstory, and to be awed by a goddess. How you pull that off in your game is up to you, since you know your players better than me... but the method in the adventure should at least serve as a starting place.

Like my first part said, your players have to actually had morals in the beginning. If Iomedae doesn't have anything to remind them of the answer, by all means blast them a bit and have the murals form of either NPCs doing the right thing, or an alternate scene of when the PCs COULD have done the right thing.

Or, if you're looking for actual effects beyond d6s of damage. The first wrong answer staggers them. The second puts them at disabled. The third wrong answer they literally black out, only waking later knowing what their failures were. Perhaps with the suggested quest to prove they actually have the fortitude.


Yeah Lochar's version is superior. The one as written reminds me too much of why I stopped being Catholic. And not in a good way.

The Exchange

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James Jacobs wrote:

Iomedae isn't the most friendly of all the good gods, and she's sending them into what she fears might be a suicide mission, so she's trying to make damn sure the PCs can take what the Abyss has to give out. Which is as much psychological as it its physical, if not more so.

I can certainly see some players reacting negatively to the way she comports herself and treats some PCs. The comparison to a drill sergeant and boot camp is a good one, though.

Of course, if you think it'd work better to have her be less strict and more friendly in your game, by all means do so... but her personality, I feel, is accurately represented. If we wanted someone who was more friendly and supportive of the PCs in this position, we would have used Sarenrae or Shelyn—a deity who's pursuit of good isn't tempered or adjusted by an equal pursuit of something else (in Iomedae's case, Law).

There are several important, GM viewpoint things I want to say about this, and while they only represent my personal feelings, I feel pretty sure some of the others in this thread who had a problem with Iomedae will agree with me on most of these.

1) First to address your concern that players might feel like sugar coating is happening if a goddess of good doesn't try to blast them to death... I don't think most people would feel that way. Why would a goddess of good be interested in attacking you? And while we are at it,players would feel even more cheated if they happened to die in the encounter and then get resurrected and still have the entire ordeal be counted as a completed mythic trial. That's real sugar coating.

2) "a deity who's pursuit of good isn't tempered or adjusted by an equal pursuit of something else (in Iomedae's case, Law)" - pretty sure what Iomedae is putting the PCs through would be illegal in most good or neutral aligned civilizations, so I fail to see how this has much to do with anything.

3) And finally... something that has to do with the larger picture... I get it that Iomedae is not about being nice. I understand that not all good aligned gods should be "soft". But really, in a world as grim and dark as Golarion, I was kind of hoping that at least the good gods, supposedly the pinnacles of the forces of good in the universe, could have been a bit less morally ambiguous. There are ways of being stern without dashing out lethal sonic attacks, and in an AP so focused on good vs evil like WotR, I'd expect a meeting with a good god to be a bit more of a contrast from meeting a demon lord. So far, Nocticula has been much more pleasant, likable and (to be honest) supportive than Iomedae. Not every single encounter has to be an obstacle, and I feel if ever there was a time to make sure that an encounter is 100% positive, this is probably it. It feels important to me that there be some sort of light at the end of the tunnel for the poor residents of Golarion, and I always assumed the gods were it. But after having read that particular encounter, I'm starting to become an in-game atheist as well as a real life atheist. as Odraude said, we have quite a spoonful of vengeful, forceful gods in our real world.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just to provide honest customer feedback, which I reckon is part of the reason that this thread exists.

The Exchange

magnuskn wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:

Say, this might sound like a stupid question, but... have you ever tried some *really* drastic tinkering with monster stats?

I mean, something like, raising HP by a factor of 10, not 1.5? Because it sounds like most of the problems come from the fact that players are able to deal waaay to much damage way to fast. But if a monsters would have had enough HP to withstand a nova for a round or 3, and could even start an offensive of it's own in that time, it will cause a chain reaction of players not only losing their resources faster but also being forced to invest more resources in defensive measures. In short, several successive encounters with monsters who have 10 times the HP they should could really make things challenging. In addition, bumping attack bonuses and armor classes to more appropriate numbers - your fighter can dish seventy five attacks per turn, all of them with a +1000 to hit? give the monster 1013 AC. You know? just patch the numbers to work specifically for your group.

Did you ever try that?

Not yet. Partly because I haven't figured out the best medium for raising monster HP (x10 seems a bit WoW'ish, to be honest) and also because encounters have to fit into the three hour sessions we get once per week. High level encounters do get progressively more difficult to play, both from my side (rule calls, keeping track of many opponents and so on) and from the players side (options paralysis is the most obvious culprit here). Hence it is in the interest of everybody to keep things rolling. And I already maximise HP and sometimes just use fantasy numbers, i.e. the opponent drops when I want it to.

Makes sense. Maybe if you multiply by a more reasonable number (4, or maybe 5), but only in important encounters. That way important encounters take more tahn a single round to complete, and the players are challeneged while not getting stuck on filler encounters all day long. The only thing you sacrifice is a tiny bit of verisimilitude as sometimes creatures will arbitrarily have much more HP than their identical brethren, but that seems like a small price to pay for a potential step towards solving the gameplay problems you have been encountering.


For something positive, I love the labyrinth mechanics. I think it does a good job of evoking the feeling of being lost while keeping it simple. Plus, it's a lot like the "Finding your way" mechanics in the Environment section of the CRB, so it's easy to remember it. I definitely want to throw my players into one at low levels against a legitimate minotaur and see what happens.


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I like the intent behind the Iomedae event, and it is plain that it is designed to feel mythic, or epic or whatever.

I agree however that the Inheritor comes off as petty in her attempts to "waken the heroes", who didn't ask to be transported to heaven and interrogated, and sent to the Abyss, again...

The point Lord Snow makes about keeping it positive, well I think it's more a matter of making it feel real, and humbling.

I'll probably change this quite drastically, starting with the beginning. I will probably have Iomedae visit them, not having them shock and awe'd up in heaven, it seems like a cheap trick from the start. The Inheritor should be more comfortable in her power and self-confidence than to have to resort to such tactics.

She'll approach them as a mortal, really as her self, a soldier and a leader of men.

The feeling I want to evoke is one of brotherhood, Iomedae isn't one that should be feared, or failing to answer her questions should be met with trumpet blasts. (Why the hate on brass bands?)

It's difficult I'll admit, but Iomedae should be portrayed as one who would fight with the PC's in the trenches, and on the beaches, getting bloodied and dirty, doing her best to save the team, and expecting the same in return. Respect born from love, not fear or awe.

To accomplish this, perhaps her questions will instead take place as visits to the actual sites they deal with. Individual scenes from the battles will be pulled out, slowed down and rewound until the message is clear. Her mortal self would be shown as one who sacrificed her safety to save as many as possible, throwing herself at the enemy in a bloody melee, time and time again.

Scenes of heroism from the HBO series Band of Brothers spring to mind. I happen to know that my players enjoyed this show immensely, so I'll have that to draw from.

When the event ends, I'd like both characters and players left with the sense that this mission isn't something to think about or hesitate about, they'll do it because they love and respect Iomedae, and it won't feature a single horn-blower.

Terendelev's sacrifice at the beginning of the adventure struck my player's as something profound, and I'll be working my ass off to make this event with The Inheritor feel the same way.

The Exchange

I quite like your approach as well, friluftshund.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
friluftshund wrote:

I like the intent behind the Iomedae event, and it is plain that it is designed to feel mythic, or epic or whatever.

I agree however that the Inheritor comes off as petty in her attempts to "waken the heroes", who didn't ask to be transported to heaven and interrogated, and sent to the Abyss, again...

The point Lord Snow makes about keeping it positive, well I think it's more a matter of making it feel real, and humbling.

I'll probably change this quite drastically, starting with the beginning. I will probably have Iomedae visit them, not having them shock and awe'd up in heaven, it seems like a cheap trick from the start. The Inheritor should be more comfortable in her power and self-confidence than to have to resort to such tactics.

She'll approach them as a mortal, really as her self, a soldier and a leader of men.

The feeling I want to evoke is one of brotherhood, Iomedae isn't one that should be feared, or failing to answer her questions should be met with trumpet blasts. (Why the hate on brass bands?)

It's difficult I'll admit, but Iomedae should be portrayed as one who would fight with the PC's in the trenches, and on the beaches, getting bloodied and dirty, doing her best to save the team, and expecting the same in return. Respect born from love, not fear or awe.

To accomplish this, perhaps her questions will instead take place as visits to the actual sites they deal with. Individual scenes from the battles will be pulled out, slowed down and rewound until the message is clear. Her mortal self would be shown as one who sacrificed her safety to save as many as possible, throwing herself at the enemy in a bloody melee, time and time again.

Scenes of heroism from the HBO series Band of Brothers spring to mind. I happen to know that my players enjoyed this show immensely, so I'll have that to draw from.

When the event ends, I'd like both characters and players left with the sense that this mission isn't something to think about or hesitate about, they'll do it because they...

*bows before friluftshund*


Thirded on that one. Not going to lie, but Iomedae treating the heroes like fellow brethren that's been "in the shit" like her would go over very well.


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I've also dislike this portrayal of Iomedae, mostly because she is tough yet not direct to the players. She summons them in heaven, i presume, then talks about first trivia then broad phylosophy for a while, blasting theme if they are a bit awkward after being abducted, and only at last asks them "By they way, my right hand is now imprisoned in the abyss. will you go there and do what must be done, will you?"

I believe, however, that the problem is in the introduction. the pcs are, basically, teleported in front of her without warning and Bam! Goddes-Sergent Steel. In my campaign, i would have done something like a Cassiran angel comes to them and say that he has a message for the higher choir, and to touch him. When it happens either they plane swift or they become part of a mental meeting while remaining where they are.
Or maybe the spirit of a long passed mentor figure could manifest to them and guide them to the goddes, showing us a bit of heaven and some war preparation, i believe. Through this npc the players can understand the mood by asking few questions, and he can warn them about how must the goddes is down for the abduction of his closest servant.

Also, Iomedae is an human born 1000 years being and before becaming a goddes she was basically what the pcs are now. I believe some degree of empathy is needed. Like, she could talk about their trials if some of them mirror hers, and how she faced epic failures and how to discover hidden depts of resolve and such


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"So wait, you want us to rescue your Herald or put him down if he's been irrevocably corrupted, but you beat us over the head with your damn trumpets and badmouth us while doing so. You are acting like a petulant little girl. So no. Your Herald can sadly rot in the Abyss. This whole thing smells like a trap, and my companions and I can do far more good fighting the demons in the Worldwound than we can following your pointless little quest. You want your Herald back? You go get him yourself."

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Tangent101 wrote:
"So wait, you want us to rescue your Herald or put him down if he's been irrevocably corrupted, but you beat us over the head with your damn trumpets and badmouth us while doing so. You are acting like a petulant little girl. So no. Your Herald can sadly rot in the Abyss. This whole thing smells like a trap, and my companions and I can do far more good fighting the demons in the Worldwound than we can following your pointless little quest. You want your Herald back? You go get him yourself."

Which is exactly the kind of attitude that would deserve the rebuke in the first place, no doubt.

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

Hope you're not a worshiper of Iomedae, or you'd be looking for a different deity. And probably not having too much luck with that, as I don't see the other gods wanting to deal with mortal back talk either. Just saying...

Scarab Sages

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Iomedae wrote:
“Welcome heroes. I am Iomedae. You are those who have proven most worthy to strike back against the Abyss’s latest injustice: the kidnapping of my own herald. Answer my questions truthfully and be found worthy of the great task I would set before you. Remain silent, and be known as cowards in the face of evil.”

"Sure, I'll answer you questions as best I can."

At least one horrible sonic attack later.

"Look, you're the one asking me to go get your Herald. QUIT ATTACKING ME AND I MIGHT!"

--Edit

Additionally, Iomedae's sentence makes no sense. "You are those who have proven most worthy" and then a line later "be found worthy"

Uhh, lady you just said I've already proven worthy...

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You forgot "deliberately provokes goddess" in there, Lochar. Because 'as best I can' should be automatic success.

==Aelryinth

Scarab Sages

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No, because for the second question if no one is conflicted about their answer, then it's an auto failure of that question. Even though they answered it to the best of their ability.

Grand Lodge

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I think the problem is with seeing it has something Iomedae is doing out of spite, and not a reflection of her displeasure.

Why don't the gods interact with mortals that often? Well, for starters, it's hard. Mortal's just don't get it. They don't get their religions right. They scuttle around, confused and miserable, and b%@+@ing at the gods to fix everything. But the gods can't. They've all agreed to be hands off, and work through intermediaries. Because if they were to fix everything, they'd all try to fix that everything in their own way, and mortals could never get better or grow.

But then something happens, and they do need to take a more direct hand. So, they call a bunch of mortals, hero's, up to their divine realm. They dumb themselves down from a manifestation/aspect/interpretation/yougettheideadon'tyou? of a concept that they normally exist as, and try to talk to them. Now, Iomedae has a bit of a leg up here, she was once a mortal, and kinda remembers what its like to have fleshy bits and a limited understanding of the workings of concepts, so there she is. She knows that mortals are just, well, mortals. They have limitations. She's cool with that, and because of the agreements not to go and kick over everyone else's concept/sandcastles, she's going to ask for some help. Task some of her champions with a job. But first, she needs to make sure they're on board. That they have some basic understanding of what's going on, feel them out. Make sure they're not a pack of sword monkeys, half-crazed murder bots, and madmen poking at reality until it spits out spells (you know, like almost every band of adventurers in the history of D&D is, I know I play that way more often than not, it's part of the fun). She asks them a few of what she figures are softball questions to warm them up, and than throws in the open ended philosophical question.

If they get it wrong, they're blasted by the trumpets of the heavenly chorus in attendance, which is kind of an extension of her will/subconscious/being. She rolls her eyes, and get frustrated, and the mortals start coming apart at the seems? What? Whatever, I'll put them back together, right as rain, before I send them home.

If they get it right, whew! Looks like the Inheritor is betting on the right mortals! Maybe they won't be utter bores (like she was, way back in the day), if any of THEM figure out a back door to divine status. That'd be nice! Anyway, here's a few tools to help you out, looks like you'll use them right and not just go and pawn them off for more ale and whores. Maybe you'll even be able to redeem and save my herald. Looks like you have the right frame of mind for it.

TL;DR
Don't think about it like this is a mortal, but like an extension of the universe that's trying to talk to you. It's not that she's being vindictive, necessarily, that's just how the annoyance of a god who doesn't have the time to fold themselves into an avatar manifests. Hence it being a mythic trial to simply experience and survive the encounter.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I fail to see how a 4 person party is going to have exactly a non-conflicting answer even if they are all LG. A very firm "There is no absolute answer, but this is what WE believe, and others may disagree" will nicely take care of that. Everyone has opinions. You're basically trying to assert they are all worshippers of Ragathiel and smiting is the only way, or some variant thereof? In an AP that's all about redemption.

But even in such cases, any serious LG person knows there is more then one way to be LG, which is what she is asking, so what you seem to be saying is you're deliberately playing an idiot to cheese her off, metagaming that you know what will happen and you want to provoke her to get pissed at her.

Mmmm. Well, then, she's definitely going to see the behavior for what it is, and act accordingly to your disrespect.

==Aelryinth

Scarab Sages

We're going to have to agree to disagree then. I forsee a fair number of groups stumbling on the first or second question just based off of how Iomedae is looking for answers.

The first question requires self-confidence AND humility in an answer.

The second requires "Iomedae is not looking for a specific answer to this question; rather she’s seeking hesitancy and conflict."


Sprain Ogre wrote:
Hope you're not a worshiper of Iomedae, or you'd be looking for a different deity. And probably not having too much luck with that, as I don't see the other gods wanting to deal with mortal back talk either. Just saying...

I'm sorry, but just where in that page-long bit of bullpucky was there anything that seemed worth worshiping? While a worshiper of hers would be far more respectful and probably not want to say a thing against her, I honestly cannot see most of my players accepting her portrayal.

This depiction of a divinity smacks of the old Awful Good jokes of the LG alignment. Admittedly, I consider alignment to be an outdated system and barely use it in my games. Seriously, the only reason that alignments are at all needed is to give targets to paladins and specific spells. (And it's sad that someone who is mildly evil is such a threat that a Paladin Smite can do such harm to him or her, but a neutral character who inflicts far more harm but not for personal gain but instead because of a goal that is greater than him or herself gets away with not being a target of Smite.)

Of course, it honestly doesn't matter because I only GM these days. I've far too many bad experiences with GMs who would use this style of GMing to lord it over players to ever let one have that opportunity again. I'm too old to put up with it, and my time is far too valuable. (Not to mention I find it more fun GMing and rolling with the players' punches.)

Grand Lodge

I think alignment can work as a guideline, something to aspire to, for mortal's, and an aspect of being for outsiders and certain other monsters (undead come to mind). Maybe as something a powerful mortal being can become bound up in as well. It's a tool, and it's not hard to drop it. Just makes certain spells less potent, or just in need of a redesign.

After all, detect evil(good/law/chaos/whatever) could be looking for acts that the caster's religion/philosophy considers evil(/etc.) after all, not the static alignment. But that could be a lot of work as well, and require a list of sins/vices for each different caster's worldview, and than tracking if the target has done so within a certain reasonable time that it would be lingering about them. And smite good(/etc.) could simply become "smite" and just get extra boosts again the truly vile(/whatever), and those beings for which their moral/ethical aspect is a part of their very being. After all, alignment as Aspirations takes into account a reality where the conflict of law/chaos and good/evil have tangible battles, and beings that manifest aspects of these things and can serve as a guidepost for comparison and aspiration.

It just takes time to dig through all the books, and shave those alignment names off, and set forth guide lines to actions (like the paladin codes from the various Faith books) that a previously aligned class needs to aspire to.

Which is way more work than I've ever wanted to do. So, instead, I take alignments as something of a reflection of PC's actions, let them play the characters they want to play, and if they start to take actions that I think are outside of their stated alignment, and if alignment plays a role in their class, I talk to them about it and make sure we're all on the same page.

As for Iomedae, how else do you apply a spanking to petulant high level heroes that makes them really think about the consequences of casually flipping the bird to a god's face? There's also a need to get the hero's thinking about this in concepts like redemption and hope, before she throws them up against a hostile demon lord's realm. An act that is as much out of a desire to try and save her herald/deny an asset to an enemy, as well as in preparation for a conflict with another demon lord? No, it's not nice from the PC's point of view. No, it's not ideal from her point of view. But it has to be done. They have to be ready for what's to come. They have to know that in the grand scheme of things, they need to be on their guard and thoughtful.

Also, maybe have some sonic protection going? That can't hurt either...


Because it's not just for being flippant to the deity. It's also answering "wrong."


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Aelryinth wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:
"So wait, you want us to rescue your Herald or put him down if he's been irrevocably corrupted, but you beat us over the head with your damn trumpets and badmouth us while doing so. You are acting like a petulant little girl. So no. Your Herald can sadly rot in the Abyss. This whole thing smells like a trap, and my companions and I can do far more good fighting the demons in the Worldwound than we can following your pointless little quest. You want your Herald back? You go get him yourself."
Which is exactly the kind of attitude that would deserve the rebuke in the first place, no doubt.

It's an attitude that results from Iomedae's actions. So the message is "kowtow to me or get smacked because I'm a goddess and you're not" rather than asking in a way that would make the PCs want to help.

I'm pretty sure my group, at least, would refuse on the grounds that (1) she's being a **** to them when she is the one who needs their help, not the other way around, which will get their backs up, (2) as Tangent101 pointed out it sounds like something that would have Admiral Ackbar screaming himself hoarse, and (3) her Herald is her business, not theirs, because they have a demonic invasion to deal with rather than running off on what will sound like a glorified sidequest no matter who it comes from.

Unless somebody is a follower of Iomedae, or perhaps her son/daughter (although given how she acts, I'll speculate that a lot of said children will immediately decide that in addition to being a poor example of a deity, she's also committing child abuse), I don't really see the encounter working as advertised.

Scarab Sages

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Honestly, you can make the whole encounter go better by having Iomedae give some background.

1) I can't fix this on my own due to divine compact. If I go beat the hell out of Baphomet, that gives [insert evil diety here] the right to go cause just as much damage to the Empyeral Lords. Granted, Ragathiel is a dick, but we kinda need him.

2) Heralds are a backdoor into a diety's power. I cannot rescind the power I gave my Herald, and if he is corrupted then Baphomet can use my Herald to draw divinity to himself. None of us want Baphomet to ascend to true godhood by drawing all of MY divine power, do we?

Dark Archive

I have a question for everyone. Have any of you actually played through this part yet? I understand you do not like the way it was written but so for with my experience with this scene there was not trouble she did not blast anyone. The first question is not that hard if you allow for a knowledge check and have Knowledge (history or religion). The second question might be a little harder but they can either have been working with a redeemed succubus or killed her off and that should help them answer. If the players think about there answer for a second then there is the hesitation. The third question is probably the easiest cause all the players have to say is something with conviction.

Scarab Sages

I think you and your group are the only ones I've seen to make it that far Brad.

However, just because your group didn't get blasted doesn't mean everyones won't. And we're discussing what an utter dick move it is to blast the group you're asking a favor of.

Grand Lodge

But part of this mission from Iomedae is to prep the characters for their confrontation with Deskari. Part of why she's upset and causing damage to them is when they don't get it. And them not getting it means that they might not make it through the Ivory Labyrinth. If they can't make it through that, they'd have no hope against Deskari.

Yes, it's heavy handed. And it's not like you can't change it if you don't think your group would react well. As much as I don't really have an issue with the presentation myself, and don't see my players having any issues with it as written, I'll be making adjustments as well to fine tune it, like I've done for pretty much the entire path.

Also, is this asking a favor of the PC's, or is it giving them their marching orders? Iomedae is the patron of the crusade. Her church is the major supporter of the Crusade, and she probably has some hand in guiding its course. While this mission is one the PC's could choose not to go on, its expected that they will. Just like any volunteer mission in heroic fiction really. So, a favor? Not so much. An important mission that will test their mettle, deny an asset to the enemy, prepare the hero's for the inevitable end game, and maybe, just maybe, remove a powerful enemies forces from the equation? That's more of what this is. And I think that's supposed to be Iomedae's approach to this. Not begging a favor like a farmer who's children have been abducted by the local goblin tribe, but a general, asking her troops to go on a dangerous mission.


To each their own.

That said, don't be surprised if your players dig their heels in and say "Excuse me? You need our help and act like this? You couldn't even keep Aroden alive. Go take care of this yourself."

There are plenty of players who'd say something like that and screw your campaign railroad because when they get pushed, they push back. Think about it. You're talking about high-level adventurers. They just went into the Abyss and made it out. And then this "goddess" turns around and starts smacking them around because they don't act subservient (and even if they DO act subservient that gives this goddess grounds to sound-blast them)?

And when your players do this, you'll either need to back down or force them into the module at which point you just turned a Lawful Good goddess of honor into a tyrant worthy of Asmodeus. Either way the goddess ends up looking bad.


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If someone is playing an Order of the First Law cavalier, then the scene with Iomedae is going to be hilarious.

He's going to go all Richard Dawkins on her, then the trumpets will break from overuse. At that point, she'll just throw up her hands and toss the party back onto the material plane.

Grand Lodge

I'm not overly concerned with how my delightfully chaotic friends playing a pack of lawful good heroes will handle this. A heavy handed LG goddess who doesn't take shit from mortals and will wrap them on the knuckles with really loud music if they can't get their answers together? I think it'll go fine.

Besides, I'd always planned to adjust the encounter a little. Add in some asides for the players with Touched by Divinity. Watch the tone and delivery of what she says to try and get my idea of what's going on across. And if they do answer wrong, present the trumpet blasts and damage in the right way.

Frankly, I think both of my groups will probably be eager to take the fight to the abyss again, including the ex-paladin of Iomedae (or re-paladin(?) I'm not sure where that part of his story will be at that point). I think they'll try and figure out if they know the history (one or two players might), and if they don't, I know they'll have the skill checks to know. I'd planned to prep some handouts with the information to give to the player(s) making the checks, and let them answer from there.

I admit, the answers I accept will be a bit broader, and I might give a sense motive check to know what sort of answer the Inheritor might be looking for in vague terms. And I'm honestly looking forward to the answers to the second question. I think my players will be creative and varied with them. I see two strong answers from one group, as the oracle of Sarenrae and the demon hating Paladin of Iomedae might have very different takes on that. Or not. It might be the long bickering argument, in which case I will certainly have the celestial chorus ring out and deal damage. I'm not worried at all about the third question.

That said, if I needed to change them, or find myself needing to change them, I will. I get what Iomedae is asking for. Are they confident and bold in their ability to succeed? Are they thoughtful about the redemption of evil? Will they let their fear make them hesitate? Are they mentally ready for the task ahead. Not just the Ivory Labyrinth, but for what lies ahead.

But, sure, it could all go sideways. Then I'll just have to figure out some other way to get the group three levels and two tiers. Not ideal, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. *shrug*


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sprain Ogre wrote:
But part of this mission from Iomedae is to prep the characters for their confrontation with Deskari.

Tell me, how exactly does using sound torture on them prep them for that mission?

Grand Lodge

It doesn't. That's to see how tough they are. Do they break under the pain, or do they endure it. How do they react to it. The trip into the abyss to rescue her Herald, and maybe confront a demon lord, is how they prep for that mission.

And come on, real sound torture would be over a much longer period.

Grand Lodge

Oh, and could we call it "auditory enlightenment encouragement" instead? There are strong indicators that this will test better in markets currently under threat of demonic invasion...

The Exchange

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Sprain Ogre wrote:

I think the problem is with seeing it has something Iomedae is doing out of spite, and not a reflection of her displeasure.

Why don't the gods interact with mortals that often? Well, for starters, it's hard. Mortal's just don't get it. They don't get their religions right. They scuttle around, confused and miserable, and b#@&~ing at the gods to fix everything. But the gods can't. They've all agreed to be hands off, and work through intermediaries. Because if they were to fix everything, they'd all try to fix that everything in their own way, and mortals could never get better or grow.

But then something happens, and they do need to take a more direct hand. So, they call a bunch of mortals, hero's, up to their divine realm. They dumb themselves down from a manifestation/aspect/interpretation/yougettheideadon'tyou? of a concept that they normally exist as, and try to talk to them. Now, Iomedae has a bit of a leg up here, she was once a mortal, and kinda remembers what its like to have fleshy bits and a limited understanding of the workings of concepts, so there she is. She knows that mortals are just, well, mortals. They have limitations. She's cool with that, and because of the agreements not to go and kick over everyone else's concept/sandcastles, she's going to ask for some help. Task some of her champions with a job. But first, she needs to make sure they're on board. That they have some basic understanding of what's going on, feel them out. Make sure they're not a pack of sword monkeys, half-crazed murder bots, and madmen poking at reality until it spits out spells (you know, like almost every band of adventurers in the history of D&D is, I know I play that way more often than not, it's part of the fun). She asks them a few of what she figures are softball questions to warm them up, and than throws in the open ended philosophical question.

If they get it wrong, they're blasted by the trumpets of the heavenly chorus in attendance, which is kind of an extension of her will/subconscious/being. She...

This is all fine and dandy, except for the part where the gods of GOOD have to actually be good. And emphatic. And understanding. I think you must agree it will be utterly absurd if most of Iomedae's clerics turn out to be better people than their goddess.

Iomadae is supposed to be the embodiment of the soldier who fights in the name of good. Everything about her should be inspiring, impressive, magnificent. The petty, self obsessed psychopath who talks with the PCs in the adventure's start is not even remotely close to any of those things.

I mean, ok, let me get this straight. Attacking Iomedae is a chaotic and evil act because she is by definition good. Right, ok, cool. But, when Iomedae tortures the PCs with pains that should rightfully kill most mortals (20d6!), that is somehow a lawful and good act? what the hell?

I'm sorry, but if a mortal doesn't get away with something because it's evil, a god doesn't either. Had my PCs captured a bunch of, say, good aligned children, and tortured them with sonic blasts (all in the sake of educating the kids, of course!), I would certainly make an issue of it. And a goddess abusing mortals? that's even more extreme than adults abusing children. It's the largest power disparity possible - an infinity versus a human.

Aelryinth wrote:


Which is exactly the kind of attitude that would deserve the rebuke in the first place, no doubt.

But it doesn't matter how the players perceive the encounter, Aelrynith. They didn't play it yet, and I'm sure some GM fiat from most of us will help keep the encounter a positive and fun part of the game.

But this is a GM thread. And some of us, as GMs invested in the setting, read the published adventure and felt that something about the way Iomedae has been presented is way off.
Reading the section on Iomedae feels like reading an encounter meant as an obstacle for the PCs. The goddess who is the patron of the forces opposing the evil of the Worldwound is mostly shown to be a very negative creature. It makes us feel bad. It honestly does. I love the golarion campaign setting, it's the first one Iv'e ever truly invested in. And I wanted to feel awe, to be inspired and impressed, when I read about the kind of meeting the PCs will have with one of the most essential, powerful and fundamental forces of good in the setting. I wanted to see one of the reasons the good guys fight. I wanted to see a good god, in short.
Instead I got a goddess who's "good" nature is arbitrary. Attacking her is an evil act, but she has no problem at all with attacking you without the slightest provocation. Where is the elation, the grace, the amazement I should have felt when reading about her? Because when I read of the bad guys of Golarion, I am always properly revolted. They are truly horrible in essence, and it makes the prospect of fighting them more exciting.
But Iomedae was so far away from any sane definition of good or righteous that I could never be excited about fighting for her.

And that, to me, is really sad. A true missed opportunity.


Lochar wrote:

Honestly, you can make the whole encounter go better by having Iomedae give some background.

1) I can't fix this on my own due to divine compact. If I go beat the hell out of Baphomet, that gives [insert evil diety here] the right to go cause just as much damage to the Empyeral Lords. Granted, Ragathiel is a dick, but we kinda need him.

2) Heralds are a backdoor into a diety's power. I cannot rescind the power I gave my Herald, and if he is corrupted then Baphomet can use my Herald to draw divinity to himself. None of us want Baphomet to ascend to true godhood by drawing all of MY divine power, do we?

I think the same.

The modules don't seem to analize the ripercussions for the herald's lost
What happen, other than a strike at the moral of the crusaders ( the no more than 50 people that actually see the deed. For others, it cannot really be so a big deal)
For all the Pc know, being an herald may be like an honorific position, and nothing more,

This idea about baphomet draining in some way her divinity, or maybe infecting her throught the abduction is a far more interesting threat. She may actually be feeling "metaphysically" bad for this (like a thorn in his foot) and so be veery rude.

Also, the conseguences of her direct intervent, and why she cannot give the pcs an host of Angels for back up, should be a bit. more explored
I this something like this should be enough
" If i attack/invade domains in such way the/ of the progeny of lamashtu, then the mother of monster will respond by commanding his blasphemous cult and any hideous beast that reverse her to invade Mendev and we cannot allow the opening of such Another front."


Also, Another thing that bugs me.
In the description of Hand of the Inheritor his halo shield, called brightsword, is referred to as something alive, probably an arti fact of some think.
In game therms in a + 2 spiked holy Heavy shield from which the Inheritor can pull of swords. It's strange for me to not find any mention of it, nor in the process of redeeming the herald.
Was it:
1) broken and le ft in peaces
2) taken in the abyss?
3) taken sa a relic by the crusaders?
4) returned to iomedae?
I think give some importance to such weapon my also be cool, since is a simbol. He may be a gift like the others and represent later the status of the new herald.

Dark Archive

brad2411 wrote:

I have a question for everyone. Have any of you actually played through this part yet? I understand you do not like the way it was written but so for with my experience with this scene there was not trouble she did not blast anyone. The first question is not that hard if you allow for a knowledge check and have Knowledge (history or religion). The second question might be a little harder but they can either have been working with a redeemed succubus or killed her off and that should help them answer. If the players think about there answer for a second then there is the hesitation. The third question is probably the easiest cause all the players have to say is something with conviction.

Yep played through it and pretty much threw out the entire trumpet blowing bit (Would have made even less sense with my group since one of them is Iolmodaes daughter) Did mention how the part is supposed to work afterword and they all pretty much agreed that as written she just comes across as rather petty


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And last, what about Ragathiel?
This module is about the abduction and saving of the Herald of Iomedae. Now, put aside that such figure may have tons of allies more than happy to risk their life to help and save him, said Herald has been the Hand of Vengeance, herald of Ragathiel, for probably way longer time than his service with Iomedae, yet the name Ragathiel is not even present in the Pdf!

How does he react? Should he intervene or assist the PCS in some fashion?

By my point of view he should. A good moment for him to show up is during the third question. I may seem overkill, since the PCs are already in front of a Godess, but may be a good roleplay situation and give PCs a chance to hear some interesting news.

Here is how I would handle it

Ragathiel visit:
Just after the Goddes has asked her third question the Pcs hear another voice. the choir changes and becames a war theme, in respect of the visitor. He comes and, after blowing, speak in the most polite manner, asking what shall be the goddess reaction for such dire move, so dire that he felf the need a meeting in person and didn't wait for the goddess call. When Iomedae answer that she's offering to the heroes of the fifth crusade the job right now he laugh,saying something like "To retrive my old and thrusted comrade ye want send the slayers of the horned lord daughter? If it was a trap before, now shall be a slaughter. He'll personally hunt them in the moment they'll put a foot in his heinous labyrinth". Then, by the goddes answer, Pcs may learn about Baphomet actual condiction, and that she believes he will not show up. But then Ragathiel rebattles that he will indeed appear should PCs succeed and they should decide then to flee or fight, then ask the goddess if they are able to fight on pair against a demon lord. Now pcs must answer and convince him. If they do it (through players skill), he'll be pleased and grant them a paladin-like boon, apologizing to the goddess for his righteous wrath and leaving.
An idea may be the second of the third boon from here .
If he's not pleased, he may provoke a martial or divine empowered PC to "make him bleed", saying that if the cannot scratch him, the have no chance to even touch baphomet, nor his thrusted servants.
This is basically a roll of dice that blatantly ask the players to show their moves. Ragathiel does Not strike back (though he may let think otherwise). They simply have to overcome a fixed AC, RD and RI and infert him at least 50 point of damage (that he recovers after 1-3 rounds). My values would be AC 50, RD 15/epic and evil, RI 41 and a primal aura effect that had them make a Will between 35 and 40 or being shaken by his fury and unable to hit him. Also, for the purpose of smiting evil, i think that Ragathiel could be really kind and allow to suffer this kind of strikes as if he was a devil. After this, he grant's the boon and goes away. (In truth, all this scene is a ruse. An elaborate play of IOMEDAE to really test the Pcs by making them strike a foe they never suspect to encouter, since battling the corrupted herald could be equally heart-breaking. As divine or semidivine being with Int > 25, those two have already talked and know everything about the heroes. This almost human bickering from Raga is just the better way to approach nascent proto-divine beings like the Pcs are, like heroes of myth, and seems to me more epic that having invisible trumpeth blasting them)


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Think of it like this, she's a stern teacher rapping them on the knuckles with her ruler. Because at that level, that is pretty much all those sound blasts are doing, a minor sting.


Squeakmaan wrote:
Think of it like this, she's a stern teacher rapping them on the knuckles with her ruler. Because at that level, that is pretty much all those sound blasts are doing, a minor sting.

Yeah ok, discounting the fact that it's not very effective method of teaching the question remains why?

The PC's have done everything they could, and far more than could reasonably be expected from someone who got mythic by accident. They have travelled across dangerous terrain and encountered majestic foes beyond compare. One false step in front of Nocticula and they'd have been eaten alive.

Why the need to be rapping them for doing their best, and doing it way better than anyone else?


Sadly, Paizo's creative team seems to think this is in line with a Lawful Good deity talking to powerful mythic heroes who not only stopped the corruption of thousands of crusaders, but also retook a city, restored an artifact banner, possibly assisted in the redemption of a succubus, killed hundreds of demons while working to redeem corrupted people (potentially), and then went into the Abyss and stopped the Mythic Potion Trade. Obviously these heroes are inept and need to be told how it is.

What this means is that the GMs will have to rewrite this segment of the story to better fit our players and their playing style. But let's face it: WotR is not for lazy GMs, what with the introduction of new rules, the use of other rules for "downtime" (which I honestly don't like to be honest), so rewriting sections is pretty much par for the course for the experienced crew.

Hopefully some of these GMs will post their revisions (perhaps on a separate thread) for the GMs with less time on their hands.

The Exchange

Tangent101 wrote:

Sadly, Paizo's creative team seems to think this is in line with a Lawful Good deity talking to powerful mythic heroes who not only stopped the corruption of thousands of crusaders, but also retook a city, restored an artifact banner, possibly assisted in the redemption of a succubus, killed hundreds of demons while working to redeem corrupted people (potentially), and then went into the Abyss and stopped the Mythic Potion Trade. Obviously these heroes are inept and need to be told how it is.

And if that's the way Iomedae is treating those mythic PCs (I think you forgot to mention how they also saved the warpstones from corruption and blew them up in the face of thousands of demons, essentially enabling the start of the new, and hopefully final, crusade), how will she treat just normal, rank and file soldiers displaying their courage in normal ways?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sprain Ogre wrote:
Oh, and could we call it "auditory enlightenment encouragement" instead? There are strong indicators that this will test better in markets currently under threat of demonic invasion...

Nope, I call a spade a spade. It's torture, plain and simple.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tangent101 wrote:

Sadly, Paizo's creative team seems to think this is in line with a Lawful Good deity talking to powerful mythic heroes who not only stopped the corruption of thousands of crusaders, but also retook a city, restored an artifact banner, possibly assisted in the redemption of a succubus, killed hundreds of demons while working to redeem corrupted people (potentially), and then went into the Abyss and stopped the Mythic Potion Trade. Obviously these heroes are inept and need to be told how it is.

What this means is that the GMs will have to rewrite this segment of the story to better fit our players and their playing style. But let's face it: WotR is not for lazy GMs, what with the introduction of new rules, the use of other rules for "downtime" (which I honestly don't like to be honest), so rewriting sections is pretty much par for the course for the experienced crew.

Hopefully some of these GMs will post their revisions (perhaps on a separate thread) for the GMs with less time on their hands.

Quite exactly so. The problem I am having here is not that I'll have to rewrite the whole thing extensively (nonetheless it's an unnecessary additional chore which I could do without in a comercially sold module), but that apparently "likes to use torture on helpless subjects" is a trait which the official account on Ioemedae now endorses. And that's despicable.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So, I don't think anyone can disagree with the "If the PCs are uppity and openly mock her, trumpet blasts and divine light". Also, the first two questions deal trivial amounts of damage, and can be healed immediately. No PC should have trouble surviving wrong answers to those two, and they fit very well in the stern teacher rapping the knuckles or drill sergeant shouting at/punishing a recruit in boot camp.

3rd question wrong is 20d6 (Fort 25 to halve). For a level 15/tier 7 character, that fortitude save is high, but not too bad. The lowest Fort save will probably be around +10. Paladins and Fighters will probably have an easy time passing, and thus halving the damage. On top of that, assuming HP average rolls, the weakest PC should have 71 HP + 15*Con Mod. So, a wizard with 12 Con would be rocking ~86 HP. On average, the final blast does 70 damage. A lot, to be sure, but it should not be fatal. Other PCs should not care as much. Even at max damage, this would be barely enough to kill the level 7/Tier 1 Paladin in the group I DM. And even if a PC dies, they are instantly resurrected.

This all can be circumvented by the PCs acting heroic, which, you know, they should be doing. That is kind of expected in this AP. They way I read it, they don't even need to have a good plan at all, they just need to say, "We shall find a way, he no doubt has some form of weakness we can exploit". That is it! They just need to have an attitude of "We can do it! We will find a way!". On top of that, only one of the PCs really needs to respond this way, as she asks the question to the group. If none your PCs are capable of being heroic in book 5 of this AP . . . then you are running the wrong AP.

Iomedae is not a "supportive, nurturing, caring" goddess. She is a warrior goddess. She doesn't have time to coddle these warriors, and they need to step up. I don't see her as a "petulant child", I see her as a somewhat frustrated commander making sure that the people she has in front of her are right for the job. Them answering wrong is no doubt frustrating to her because she has no other options. If you are really concerned about them missing the 3rd question, have it so the damage only increases from 5 -> 10 -> 20 d6 each time they get a question wrong. Then, the 20d6 is a punishment for the all of the PCs completely failing to live up to the standards of "warrior for good", which is kind of what the PCs are supposed to be in this AP.

I really don't see Iomedae as coming across as a demanding, petulant child to anyone other than PCs who are uppity or mistake Iomedae for Sarenrae or Shelyn. Iomedae may not be as harsh as Ragathiel, but she is no where near as cuddly as her NG counterparts.

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