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Reminds me of an old old modified Night Below campaign I was running where the PCs managed to save part of a city of Drow elves from someone seeking to become a God (that part not being in NB) and convinced the Drow that Lolth had sent them... and that worship of Lolth had been distorted by powerhungry Matron Mothers.
In essence they helped establish a new hidden community of Drow who worshiped Lolth as a Chaotic Good deity who truly loved her worshipers, hoping that worship itself can modify a divine entity.
Folks interested in finding out a little bit more about Ayavah and Nocticula's possible redemption might wanna check out Pathfinder #100 in a few months...
Will that be in the adventure itelf, or in one of the supporting articles?
Oh, and, I believe we never got an answer to this. Maybe James can clear up what was referred to there?
Make sure you’re familiar with the Midnight Isle planar traits listed below, and use the Ten Abyssal Traits notes in the foreword to help bring home the fact that the PCs have left the Material Plane behind.What exactly is the bolded part referring to?
Creative Director
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Folks interested in finding out a little bit more about Ayavah and Nocticula's possible redemption might wanna check out Pathfinder #100 in a few months...I can only favorite that post once.
Will it help me decide whether/how to proceed with any redemption of Nocticula in my own game? I'm hesitant to go ahead if it'll disrupt a future AP...
It might, yes.
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Creative Director
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Folks interested in finding out a little bit more about Ayavah and Nocticula's possible redemption might wanna check out Pathfinder #100 in a few months...Will that be in the adventure itelf, or in one of the supporting articles?
It's part of the NPC I wrote for the big NPC retrospective. So... one of the supporting articles.
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Creative Director
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Oh, and, I believe we never got an answer to this. Maybe James can clear up what was referred to there?
Make sure you’re familiar with the Midnight Isle planar traits listed below, and use the Ten Abyssal Traits notes in the foreword to help bring home the fact that the PCs have left the Material Plane behind.What exactly is the bolded part referring to?
It's talking about the "Facts about the Midnight Isles" part in the foreword, which was originally written out as a list of ten bullet points genericized to the abyss, but which I then decided to focus more on the Midnight Isles since that's where the adventure takes place and in order to save space (fewer paragraph breaks = more words) I simply compressed the ten notes into four larger paragraphs.
Thanks, for clearing that up, James!
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Creative Director
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It's part of the NPC I wrote for the big NPC retrospective. So... one of the supporting articles.Folks interested in finding out a little bit more about Ayavah and Nocticula's possible redemption might wanna check out Pathfinder #100 in a few months...Will that be in the adventure itelf, or in one of the supporting articles?
Alas... looks like that information got cut for space or some other reason. Ayavah is still in the retrospective, but the information about a redeemed Nocticula is not. Sorry for the misinformation, folks!
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Alas... looks like that information got cut for space or some other reason. Ayavah is still in the retrospective, but the information about a redeemed Nocticula is not. Sorry for the misinformation, folks!It's part of the NPC I wrote for the big NPC retrospective. So... one of the supporting articles.Folks interested in finding out a little bit more about Ayavah and Nocticula's possible redemption might wanna check out Pathfinder #100 in a few months...Will that be in the adventure itelf, or in one of the supporting articles?
Now I'm trying to figure out what could be more interesting than a redeemed Nocticula?!?
Contributor
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Alas... looks like that information got cut for space or some other reason. Ayavah is still in the retrospective, but the information about a redeemed Nocticula is not. Sorry for the misinformation, folks!It's part of the NPC I wrote for the big NPC retrospective. So... one of the supporting articles.Folks interested in finding out a little bit more about Ayavah and Nocticula's possible redemption might wanna check out Pathfinder #100 in a few months...Will that be in the adventure itelf, or in one of the supporting articles?
I thought you were saving that for a future, much larger arc...
I'm sure we can bother you for more once we've seen #100. ^_^
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Alas... looks like that information got cut for space or some other reason. Ayavah is still in the retrospective, but the information about a redeemed Nocticula is not. Sorry for the misinformation, folks!It's part of the NPC I wrote for the big NPC retrospective. So... one of the supporting articles.Folks interested in finding out a little bit more about Ayavah and Nocticula's possible redemption might wanna check out Pathfinder #100 in a few months...Will that be in the adventure itelf, or in one of the supporting articles?Nuuuuuuuu! :(
Any chance of that info maybe being posted in a blog or something? Or even right here >_>
I dunno how much it is, but I'm dying to know it.
I'm pretty precious and proud about that plotline, and I don't want to jettison it yet. Just means I need to find a new place to feature it. I'd rather not jump the gun an put it in a blog post or here, as a result, and I kinda wish I'd not mentioned it at all in the first place. I had really assumed it would make it into print, though.
Good catch, totally missed that. I was getting very concerned about what I was going to do with her. Crisis averted.Just into part 1 right now. Something that really jumps out at me, Minagho is listed as a CR 16, but the lilitu in Worldwound book is listed at CR17, and that's before her class levels. Now assuming that skill is not a "key" role for a Lilitu, Minagho should be a CR 20, that's 17 + 3 (1/2 class level). Since at this point the party is only level 12/tier 5 (APL of 14-15) this will be a nearly impossible fight for them.** spoiler omitted **
My party of level 11, tier 5 (5 party members) crushed the sc8rpi8n version of her (i.e., no debuff, but not mythic). She also has some flaws in her tactics in the Fane (she can't teleport away from party).
While I would expect followers and minions of other Demon Lords I can't see Nocticula allowing a temple to a rival in her realm it seems to be a challange to her power and authority.
However that does not mean your player cannot find cultists and followers of the Demon Lord in her city going about their nefarious plans or find Information brokers willing to sell him the information he needs or if you want to set up a side quest information on where they can go to get the information he needs.
Except that is one way to build up Notoriety to eventually get a meeting with Nocticula.
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It depends on you and how you want to tell the story, or what story you want to tell.
Celestial beings are not presented anywhere as being assaulted. Yes people are being abused and enslaved there, but they are on Galarion too.
In Alushinyrra might makes right, and Nocticula's might reigns supreme. She wants the city to be as 'friendly' as possible to visiting outsiders so typically local demons won't attack. She also had daemons to help enforce her will.
The paladin can also exercise good judgement. It is a much better use of his power and might to help close the Worldwound and save thousands or the whole planet rather than one or two souls at a time.
Also, if you're using mythic rules you may be surprised how many CR 18s a mythic paladin could take on and destroy.
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You are free, of course, to run and interpret things as you see fit.
By those guidelines though, you had better be willing to change all of your PCs alignment to evil as they will likely do nothing when they see those events too. They too will be committing evil acts by inaction and that should reflect in their alignment.
You are also implying a sort of hive mentality to the demons. Several of them would probably be delighted if a paladin (or the whole PC group) killed off some fellow demons as it would be less competition for them.
Let the paladin kill of some and save a few people. As stated that can raise their notoriety and then have Nocticula invite them for a meeting.
Conversely, by not letting the Paladin travel to the Midnight Isles, the Paladin will lose their Paladinhood for refusing to help their companions and for cowardice.
This is also dependent on you as the GM. The Paladin will be given a little magic item that will let the Paladin know if a fall will happen by not acting.
Don't forget. The Paladin's mission is to stop the flow of war materials from the Midnight Isles, stop negotiations between the other Demon Lords and Nocticula, and ultimately hopefully close the Worldwound. Also, there are different methods by which the Paladin could gain the freedom of the good-aligned outsiders - including buying those outsiders from the slavers.
And if it bugs you that much, then don't forget: you are the GM. You can just leave those scenes out. Thus the Paladin doesn't have to become a murderhobo to retain their paladinhood.
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So not to be a PITA, but you're really setting yourself up for this entire conflict. In your world, a paladin MUST act, even if the act is suicidal, and not acting causes the paladin to fall.
"Oh, you're a level 1 paladin and you see a balor demon tormenting an innocent soul? And you don't run in there and get yourself killed? You FALL!"
You're removing any and all aspects of self-determination from the paladin class.
"If I do XXX I die, but if I don't do XXX I fall" is the textbook definition of 'lawful stupid'. And it sounds like you want to enforce that on your paladin.
If that's the case, then yes, by all means, don't let your paladin travel to Alushinyrra, because you've already predetermined that any paladin who travels there must necessarily fall for not assaulting every single evil-doer he or she sees there.
Your quote is very apropos: A paladin must help those in need, and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Taken absolutely, all paladins must die through their own stupidity because they cannot exercise judgement as to whether or not they are singularly capable of dealing with such atrocities.
In the game I'm currently watching, the paladin is using some semblance of sense: King's Castle to get the innocent out of there, then his allies cast Bard's Escape to get him out of there. The innocent is saved. The paladin survives to fight another day. There is no absolute requirement that the paladin must fight all evil-doers, no matter how powerful.
If your interpretation as a GM is that a paladin MUST fight the evil-doer, no matter how outclassed he or she is, then yes, you should not allow the paladin to travel to the city.
But if you simply focus on, "You must save the innocents you see," it can work.
Depends on your take on things as a GM.
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I was going to respond very similarly to NobodysHome (high five)
This is a creation of your own doing. It is also very poor form to take away someone's character, by your rules there would be no paladins.
I'm running this sequence right now for a group that includes a paladin. I agree with NH and Seannoss, you don't have to put that much of a restriction on the paladin's player. However, i'll add this...
My group can kill just about any demon I've thrown against them at this point. If you want to run a very combat heavy game, with the paladin leading a total slaughter of every demon he runs into, I think you can. It will be fairly combat heavy, it will remove much of the angst that my paladin feels in every game as he walks a tightrope between doing, and suffering, but it will likely work. The key is, the demons are chaotic and certainly not loyal to each other. Weak ones will flee, strong ones may attack; but not likely working together, more likely out for the glory of the solo kill.
I suggest you plan out encounters that fit well with the character levels and allow your paladin to kill them. After a few dozen he will get his Nocticula invite and then it will be a question of "deal with the demon or die". That will likely be the TPK that ends the game, but maybe not. Noticula maybe won't "do evil things" in front of a paladin she wants to use... She's smart that way.
Good luck!
Yes in my world, self preservation takes a distant second place to protecting innocents for paladins. Someone else may have a different view of this, but that's the way I run it.
If you're going to play a character who will tolerate innocents being tortured and enslaved without lifting a hand, then why bother playing a paladin at all?
If Captain America (the closest thing to a paladin in comics) saw a balor torturing a kid, he would attack in a heartbeat and wouldn't hesitate for a second even at the cost of his own life.
Your world, your rules. And yep, if that's the ruleset, I think you're correct in keeping the paladin out of the Abyss. He'd have no hope there.
What's the point of Paladins as a PC class.
It sucks to get up to 12th level only to have to abandon them.
That's what I meant actually. :-)
Fall or die doesn't seem like the path I'd make them go.
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So my players did some epic fail moves last session. They threatened a Nascent Demon Lord...
Gelderfang and Nezirrius went amazingly well for them. They were good fights, but not as momentous as I had built them in my mind.
After that, they rested and were spooked by the idea of Rapture of Rupture. The city is not tempting to them, so that's probably my fault or they are just thinking "It's a demonic city, I shouldn't want any of this" even though at least one character is not super-good in outlook.
So they hear rumors about people trying to get noticed by Shamira at The Harem of Ardent Dreams. They barely make the diplomacy check, and she brings them in. The Sorceress takes point, instead of the Ranger who HAS Diplomacy. She rolls poorly on the check, and her points are mediocre. Shamira is unimpressed as per the book on a fail, and tells them to leave. Sorceress play says "my Intimidate is much better, I'll try that". Only the Fighter protests. She rolls super low as well, saying something along the lines of "yeah, well you better tell Nocticula etc..."
I took this as they linger, as described in the book. Shamira enters combat, Time Stop and Delayed Blast Fireballs kills 3/4 party members. Ranger is left standing asking if he can leave with his friends corpses. We stopped the session there for the night.
So I know there is an out for them as per the module of Nocticula raising them and having them give her something in return, separate from what the adventure outlines. But what? Also, would Shamira kill the last character, or maybe Dominate him and send him away? The latter is more interesting, as her goals could be slightly different than Nocticula's.
Thank you for any help you guys can give.
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Always tempted to TPK people who ask for it.
Shamira I would say has little to no interest in the party they don't play an obvious role in schemes for or against Nocticula so I don't see her investing much in them.
I ended up doing rather a lot with Nocticula, so I would go with Nocticula bringing them back and asking for a long term favour. In the future she is going to want to off another demon lord , or do something dodgy to aid her theoretical divine ascension so having a favor from a bunch of good aligned high level mythic characters could be useful.
My Paladin player was rather worried when Nocticula turned up at his wedding to Arushalae and sat on the brides side of the cathedral (Arguably she was his mother in Law). That's the sort of thing I found fun to do with her , acting as a reasonable and rational person and doing them a few favours made them much more worried than if she had been unpleasent to them. (She also managed to use the pc's as stalking horses to set up Baphomat and Deskari for her letting her get both kills while gaining points with the forces of good for being 'helpful')
Funny.
Yesterday the sorceror of my group made some serious mistakes. The group knew , fighting in the city is okay as long no harm to the city itself happens.
I had some homebrewn fights in the arena for them and they wanted to challenge the infamous "Dark brothers". The sorceror wanted to ask a young cambion about it, but the youngling did not want to speak to him (Paladin behind scared him).
Sorceror got angry, hurt the kid, a whole bunch of spectators got mad and yelled at him. So he decided to launch a fireball into a the crowd, killing a lot of citizen including kids and women , and setting a part of the arena ablaze.
Well, long story short : Shamira appeared an sentenced him to long-life-prison. Group wanted to fight. All dead, Shamira did not even took a scratch.
hey - the Buzzing Doom random encounter - pg 83 - how many Warmonger wasps is this supposed to be, it just says a flight of them with avg cr of 12. A flight in B5 is 3-12 of them, 3 would be CR 10, 12 would be CR 14, 8 would be CR 12. At the beginning of the book the PCs are lvl 12, MT 5 which is APL 14.5, 14 if rounding down, so minimum encounter should be CR 13 - so would minimum 8 W.Wasps max 12, i.e. d5+7, be good? not sure why it says avg CR 12 and why it's possible by the current numbers to easily get some encounters less than 13 at all given the PC's lvls. As is I'm gonna have to modify the rolls for amounts of the enemies to have minimum CR of 13 atm, d3+1 hezrous etc.
Anyone spotted the fact that Melazmera the Umbral dragon with negative energy affinity (healed by negative energy hurt by positive) uses Heal when brought below 150 hit points thus killing itself?
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If someone is interested, I did a map of the Midnight Fane for using in Roll20 or a screen battle map Midnight Fane Map