Guidance, Railroading, and Free Form


Advice


So I consider my self a pretty decent and experienced DM, I've been playing for 15 years or so own tons of books and the greatest measure my players always have fun and indicate happiness with our games.

I like to think that I avoid the ultimate DM sin or railroading my players but I do try to provide them with guidance and at times may describe a specific set of critiera that will equate to greatest success.

But after reading some comments on here, I am curious how other players/DMs feel about it.

1)When does guidance become railroading.

2)How do YOU define railroading.

Thoughts?


Railroading is when you can't/won't accept an outcome to a given scenario other than the one you have planned. You plan out a scenario in which the PCs are captured. No other outcome is permissible. You plan out a scenario where the PCs join a caravan as guards and meet a dragon on the road out of town. No other action is permissible. Etc. etc.

It's perfectly fine, even encouraged, to have plans. You just have to be ready and willing to see those plans fall apart. You have to be willing to roll with the punches, to see your BBEG go down on a lucky crit, or fail to do any damage when you roll a string of 1s on his attacks.

On another forum, one DM's greatest story is how he'd planned out this great planar adventure with Modrons, only to have his group completely ignore the plot hook and head off to other things. He didn't force them to find out why the Modrons were marching, he rolled with it and let the PCs determine what goals were important to them.

Have plans. Have backup plans. And at the very end of it, be prepared to wing it now and again until you can come up with new plans after the PCs manage to surprise you yet again.

Have fun with it.


Thanks Pendragon,

I typically try to do just that, I especially love when players ignore a very real world/local threat and then are shocked that the events they ignored happened anyway when they come back....


Doesnt sound like you rail road... I have 2 example to provide:

1) RailRoading - Our Party was charged with breaking in to a store and stealing everything (which we did do). When questioned by the gaurds I rolled a nati-20 bluff (we were 3 or 4th level in 3.5 - so the result was ~30 - I was a sorcerer)... DM said nope, your going to jail.

2) Not Railroading - As sith, On the way out of a Jedi temple I "searched the elevator for the temple's self destruct button." Nati-20... 2 players and most of the Jedi died as a result :)

My normal group is REALLY bad at picking up subtle hints, and our DM knows this... he doesn't rail-road but provides "strong guidance" but at the end of the day we are allowed to do what we want... and sometimes we die :)

Sovereign Court

I define railroading as offering no alternate choice to the players. There is one answer, one door, one outcome that is fixed and no matter what it will happen.

As long as the guidance is subtle and not absolute it is fine and expected. My group learned early I'm not afraid of using red herrings. I'll even let them fully investigate them. Sometimes folks feel that is a waste of time so obviously the level of guidance depends on the context of each individual group.

I have one really clear example of bad guidance. One of the members of my group and I sometimes butt heads. He is really into the gamist aspect of TTRPG and I am more of a simulationist. If our characters decide to go somewhere he will flat out say, "You are not high enough level to go there and do that." To him that's no big deal in fact he is doing us a favor by avoiding a TPK.

On the other hand, I believe there are other ways to approach that that are not so immersion breaking. There was a really good example recently about a guy mentioning using owlbear corpses as a sign that the PCs are out of their league. (PCs finding a single owlbear a challenge and seeing a bunch of them killed should send a red flag.) This puts the power in the players hands and allows them to decide their fate.

So for me by letting the players investigate whatever they want I keep immersion intact and allow them some power over their PCs fates. My other player finds that to be off track from the adventure and a waste of time. When guidance turns into railroad really depends on the individuals and there is no solid marker.

Grand Lodge

Hop on the Railroad


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Mr. Fishy's railroad goes though a swamp...and then ends abruptly. Good Luck suckers.

Mr. Fishy rail road his player all the time, you kick the kings dog...get on the train. You eat WHAT!?!? Get on the train.

Mr. Fishy's hates in the AP where no matter how careful you are the villian still escapes or the secret info is revealed, choo choo... You have to go to point A and get item G or the game ends. the villian steals item G even if it's shoved up your butt.


I've been the GM for players that like railroading. Usually if have group like that they are heavy into role playing in character and you as GM are just providing them vehicle to do so. The railroad works best because it's what the GM is prepared for and offers the optimum role playing experience.


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Okay. Here is my best (rambling) advice, and one that has held the most true through my years and years of running games. As much as players scream about railroading, they want direction and prodding. Too much however, and they feel like they don't have "agency" and their choices do not matter.

In reality, what is needed is a "Stealth Railroad" where the tracks are not visible so players are convinced their choices are radically affecting the outcome even if in certain circumstances they are not. Carefully written plots and timetables will crumble at the first PC. Your Stealth Railroad must be flexible, having an overarching plot but being less like a written story and more like a series of 3x5 notecards with a quick bit about what happens but keeping the details rather loose. Details firm up the closer they are to that plot point, but the further off it is the less detail and work you should put into it because more often than not that detail and work will end up being wasted because of what the PC's did a dozen story points ago. Be able to switch out notecards and write new ones and change the order.

Second is to ensure the players and their characters are invested in some way. Insist on a page of character background, with at least two NPC's (who are STILL ALIVE) no, not everybody you know can be dead. Even Batman had Alfred. Play them up as important and helpful, not just shackles they have to drag along so when you threaten them the players actually care. Speed is not important, player investment is. Sometimes the most rewarding stories are not battles Against The Ancient Evil Which Has Arisen (tm) but rather stories about a small village. Encourage the players to build their own stores and domiciles and shops. If the players show interest in a certain bit, or NPC, go with it and hold on with both hands and figure out how to weave that into your overarching plot later to get them back on the "Stealth Railroad"


I hate the 'illusion of choice'. You think you have a choice, but really you don't. No matter what the pc's do or wish, the mod won't let you!

Struggled with a lot of APs because of this.

I don't mind a bit of a railroad, but it needs to be made clear.

Sovereign Court

voska66 wrote:

I've been the GM for players that like railroading. Usually if have group like that they are heavy into role playing in character and you as GM are just providing them vehicle to do so. The railroad works best because it's what the GM is prepared for and offers the optimum role playing experience.

skeletal steve wrote:
In reality, what is needed is a "Stealth Railroad" where the tracks are not visible so players are convinced their choices are radically affecting the outcome even if in certain circumstances they are not. Carefully written plots and timetables will crumble at the first PC. Your Stealth Railroad must be flexible, having an overarching plot but being less like a written story and more like a series of 3x5 notecards with a quick bit about what happens but keeping the details rather loose. Details firm up the closer they are to that plot point, but the further off it is the less detail and work you should put into it because more often than not that detail and work will end up being wasted because of what the PC's did a dozen story points ago. Be able to switch out notecards and write new ones and change the order.
thenovalord wrote:

I hate the 'illusion of choice'. You think you have a choice, but really you don't. No matter what the pc's do or wish, the mod won't let you!

Struggled with a lot of APs because of this.

I don't mind a bit of a railroad, but it needs to be made clear.

Different strokes, different folks. These posts attest to what I was saying in my post. Railroading isn't on or off but a slider and every group has their own personal setting.


When I need to railroad the players, I tell them so.

They go along because after many years they know that a little railroading is a small price to avoid constant GM burnout.

Sometimes, you gotta do it. I like to describe it as "Right now you're on the railroad, next stop: sandbox."


DM reacts to players is free form
players reacting to DM is railroading

both are ok when the time is right
how they get to the BBG should be free form once they find him game might gain some tracks

The Exchange

My top bit of advice for any GM who wants the PCs to follow a grand plotline but doesn't want to restrict freedom of choice - and wants to do both without unreasonable amounts of pre-game prep - is to build a multi-course flow chart for event-based adventures (site-based ones already have one - it's called "the map"). This notion is recommended, with examples on how to do it, in the Gamemastery Guide and in tons of older GM-help books: it even turned up in Heroes of Battle as a way to handle the narrative of PC heroes on a larger battlefield.


thenovalord wrote:

I hate the 'illusion of choice'. You think you have a choice, but really you don't. No matter what the pc's do or wish, the mod won't let you!

Struggled with a lot of APs because of this.

I don't mind a bit of a railroad, but it needs to be made clear.

The "illusion of choice", done well, is transparent. You'll never know it was an illusion. If you can't distinguish it from the real thing, how can you hate it?

Done poorly, of course, the illusion breaks and then it may be even worse than an open railroad.


Guidance is fine sometimes getting on the community narrative trolly is necesary. It becomes a problem when when the conductor won't let you get off.

You can really tell its a problem when the dm reacts a dm creates implausable situations just to keep the choo choo on track.

This can varry from the dm informing the party that tunnelling through the wall is impossible because it is made of (insert random hard material the dm just thought of that makes no sense for dungeon walls).

Another example being vital to plot beggar npc bumps into party's CN half orc barbarian. The beggar is supposed to appologize and drop a plot hint. Hower the barb responds with I rage and punch him as hard as I can. If the dms response is to instantly make the beggar super tough and the guards to have a responce time so quick that olymlic sprinters want thrier autograph then its probably a railroad.

I realize both my examples are extreme but I experienced variations of both as teenagers.

The Exchange

(sigh) Yeah, statistically speaking, 99% of the beggars in bad campaigns are shape-shifters, avatars of vengeful gods, and beloved kinfolk of the local Assassins' Guildmaster. Odd that they all took up panhandling...


Mojorat wrote:

Guidance is fine sometimes getting on the community narrative trolly is necesary. It becomes a problem when when the conductor won't let you get off.

You can really tell its a problem when the dm reacts a dm creates implausable situations just to keep the choo choo on track.

This can varry from the dm informing the party that tunnelling through the wall is impossible because it is made of (insert random hard material the dm just thought of that makes no sense for dungeon walls).

Another example being vital to plot beggar npc bumps into party's CN half orc barbarian. The beggar is supposed to appologize and drop a plot hint. Hower the barb responds with I rage and punch him as hard as I can. If the dms response is to instantly make the beggar super tough and the guards to have a responce time so quick that olymlic sprinters want thrier autograph then its probably a railroad.

I realize both my examples are extreme but I experienced variations of both as teenagers.

Right. A simpler "illusion of choice" technique would be to let the beggar scene play out and then arrange to drop the same hint some other way. "Schrodinger's NPC", if you like.

And remember not to use the barbarian in such attempts later on. :)

Silver Crusade

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There is a big difference between railroading and a gentle nudge to get the party back on track. Our Dm beats us over the head an drags us by the hair kicking and screaming. He makes us feel our input and actions have no meaning. We have no control an the plot goes on without us,Its like we are just tagging along in the story he created.


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I think my writing style is so full of frivolous details that I lose my players. I make a sandbox with a main quest and then give them all the reign in the world (making sidequests detailed to any character that gives me enough to go on and then... just seeing what happens). It doesn't always work because sidequests for the not fully-integrated character aren't blatantly obvious in their starting points, and I don't want to start it unnaturally.
Then there's the question of free will. I can never, ever be prepared for that.
I doubt any gm can be. Though I could be wrong, I've only been at this for a couple of years, and only a couple of times by choice. I've had players with the gall to tell me my idea for a monster, for example, or plot twists were... well, stupid, after they begged me to dm and rushed my work.
If I railroad, it's only because I'm rushed. Period. I suppose that goes back to the gm burnout note.

The Exchange

Lincoln Hills wrote:
(sigh) Yeah, statistically speaking, 99% of the beggars in bad campaigns are shape-shifters, avatars of vengeful gods, and beloved kinfolk of the local Assassins' Guildmaster. Odd that they all took up panhandling...

On that note I had a DM who had a pickpocket target my dwarf who noticed with a high perception. Then my dwarf attacked the cur(I rolled a d20 to hit it after I rolled for initiative). The "scruffy pickpocket" suddenly gained the description of "female pickpocket". When I said "Who cares, she's a thief trying to gank my stuff" and said I was determined to attack the "female pickpocket" turned into a "teenaged female pickpocket" then when I started calling BS and said "You are just changing this to make me stop" my DM then changed it to a "female child around 10 years old" and asked if I wanted to murder her.....

I think I stayed with that DM for another month or 2 before getting thoroughly fed up and quit that game.


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My beggars are just that. Beggars. Sometimes fodder for the bad guy to start his plans, too.

I did have a time when I got in a fight with a player for literally seducing everything he came across with insane diplomacy. There's a point where it disrupts the flow of the game.
Not to mention that he single-handedly destroyed three convents.


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Really great points all, but I think Pan hit the proverbial nail on the head...different groups need different levels of guidance.

I too am a fan of the illusion of choice and try to make it so my players never know that they are still right on track when they think they just did something way unexpected.


I admire the DMs who are great at improvising - I have little bursts of success at improv but it's definitely a weak point.

I hope players keep in mind that they also have some responsibility to help the story work - if the DM is clearly trying to hook you with something, and it doesn't require you to go hugely out of character, work with them a little! It strikes me as dickish when the DM has spent weeks working up her Modron campaign (or whatever) and a player becomes completely adamant that instead of engaging with the story, they want to get polymorphed into a Kuo-Toa and go join an underwater circus. (Or whatever.)


jasonfahy wrote:

I admire the DMs who are great at improvising - I have little bursts of success at improv but it's definitely a weak point.

I hope players keep in mind that they also have some responsibility to help the story work - if the DM is clearly trying to hook you with something, and it doesn't require you to go hugely out of character, work with them a little! It strikes me as dickish when the DM has spent weeks working up her Modron campaign (or whatever) and a player becomes completely adamant that instead of engaging with the story, they want to get polymorphed into a Kuo-Toa and go join an underwater circus. (Or whatever.)

Harder to tell which is which in a pbp, however.


Chokepoints...anytime there is only one way to go or decision to be made. That is what I consider railroading. Of course I don't mind it on certain occasions. In a dungeon there is only one door left, the BBG must be behind it. I'm ok with that. I'm less ok with lighting a fire behind the party that forces them through the door whether they are prepared or not.

But, sometimes a good railroad is fun to ride and just what everyone wants. You need to know your players.


Sure, the railroad is bad, but option paralysis is no fun either.

The healthy middle is choice. Offer your players clear choices. Not an ill-defined "what do you do?", but choices like "do you desert your post, or stay and fight the overwhelming odds?"


It also depends a lot on what your players want.

I've used railroading, I've used nudges and I've used free form, all at their own time.

Beginning a campaign I tend to railroad. After a few sessions the players know their chars better, and I use less railroading.

The ultimate freeform doesn't work for me. I've tried the usual "you are at the inn... What do you do?" And the players just look at me, waiting for a plothook rather than go make a plot.

So my conclusion must be: be upfront about what you want. Listen to what your players want. Compromise!


I just got an adventure planned that for the first level or so will have a railroad, but that's because I made everyone have a good reason to join in. Everyone was put in jail for some reason and was going to rot there, but had the chance to earn freedom by essentially stopping a war. Not everyone was guilty of a crime, some were framed. Starting off with a railroad that lets them chose later works really nice with almost every group. If they chose not to help with what come next it does mean that draconic demons will be summoned and will cause mayhem across the county, but they would be a high enough level to face one before I threw them against any. So eventually they will go back to the story I started with, just not in the same way. And if they do try to avoid it by doing something like sailing somewhere, they run into one that damages the ship and they land on an island that ends up being a secret headquarters of the people summoning them.


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The first thing you have to realize is that what matters is not the structure of the adventure, but the experience of the players. Something is a railroad only if perceived as such. Even if there is really only one path to take, as long as that path is accepted by the players as the logical and appropriate path, there will be no experience of railroading.

But as soon as players feel that they are supposed to do this or that and feel that they have no reasons for it, or do not identify with that choice or find it inappropriate for their characters, the experience of being railroaded can appear.

Therefore an adventure needs to provide a context for player choices to make them meaningful and if the context is right for your group of players and their characters, no amount of "structural railroading" will be a problem. By structural railroading, I mean to what degree the adventure text itself does not allow for deviations from a particular sequence of events, something which, btw. is highly encouraged by the level/CR subsystem.

Similarly, if the players have no indications for theirs choices, they can feel left out of the scenario. That is a pitfall for sandbox games: you still need to provide a context for player choices, to make them meaningful. A good sandbox game is basically a railroad of forking paths: You still need to provide a meaningful context for player choices so as to allow them to make those choices their own, even if they are moving within a preset of options.

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