Summon Monster, Same Monster?

[Rayan]

So, I'm trying to discuss with my DM the possibility of Summoning the same monster over and over again with the Summon Monster Spell. The exact nature of the discussion is I want to Summon an Allip in the morning, make everyone in the party immune to it's Babble ability, and then when we get into a combat circumstance I can just summon the Allip and possibly fascinate all our enemy's. I'm Wondering if anyone knows any obscure rules or clarifications that would back one of our arguments. I'm A Shadow Summoner by the way, so yes I can Summon an Allip.

[awp832]

there isn't any way i know of. This is probably intentional, to avoid just the sort of thing you want to do.

edit: this is hardly obscure, but the Planar Ally spell specifically mentions that you can call a specific creature, whereas the summon monster spells only say you may pick the creature type.

[ErrantPursuit]

You do not get to summon the exact same monster as you did previously with a summon spell. The rules give you one choice, which is the type of monster you can summon.

D20PFSRD Summon Monster wrote:

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table: Summon Monster. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.

There is no indication you can summon Joseph the Allip the second time. The rules used to state "a generic creature of its type" but I think there were some conflicts with that wording and certain abilities. Either way, when you can summon a specific, individual creature the rules explicitly tell you so. Such as Eidolons, Animal Companions, and Familiars.

[Rayan]

Allright. I get the picture. It was too good to possibly be true. And thus it was false. If anyone else has any other evidence that would counter the statements above please feel free to contribute but otherwise oh well. Thanks for the help guys.

[Rayan]

Also, his name was Chuckles :'(

[FLite]

Actually.... I might.

I just looked at the rules for summoning.

Summoning: a summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from... A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.

if you were summoning a different creature each time, why would this be relevant?

[Rayan]

Hmm. That is quite true. Still generally kills my scheme, but at least I might still be able to have Chuckles :D

[Rayan]

Although it could be specifically referencing the Planar Ally/Binding Spells.

[Isil-zha]

FLite, while you may, by chance, summon the same creature again you do not have control over which specific creature you summon. So it may be possible that Chuckles gets summoned again but with all the other allips out there chances are slim.

As the DM I'd probaby roll d% with a tiny chance (something along the lines of 1-5%) of summoning Chuckles a second time.

@Rayan: the planar allies are called not summoned, if they die they're dead

[FLite]

I so want to be in a scenario now with multiple casters on both sides summoning in successive encounters, and they keep getting the same creature...

*pictures poor little summoned imp* "Wait, wait! Who am I fighting this time? I'm so confused!"

[Rayan]

Wow I completely overlooked that. Planar Ally/Binding just became a much more serious spell.
But that casts even more doubt in my mind on the idea that you can't summon the same creature if you want too. Because as FLite says why would it even be relevant to put that piece of information there if you were summoning a different creature each time? Also the idea of a chance roll to summon the same Allip might be a percentage measurable in single numbers but what about the more numerous creatures? The insurmountable horde of devils or demons? The idea that chance would throw you the same creature is a little unrealistic.(Hahahahahahaha) So it seems like you should be able to summon the same creature if you wish, as long as it isn't regenerating.

[ErrantPursuit]

There are more arguments to make in reference to named summoning like Demons, etc... In this context I consider it like insurance. If there was a story-based reason in your campaign for all but Chuckles the allip to disappear from the home plane, than you would be unable to summon the allip again.

Mostly, it's just a fair accounting of what happens if the summoned creature is destroyed. Otherwise the alternate planes would be bereft of life as all the denizens would have been forced into service and destroyed in wars between casters some time ago. In order for Conjurers and Summoners etc. not to also be mass murderers who are hunted down and destroyed by alter-planar assassins the summoned creatures need to survive somehow.

[Rayan]

But why not just say they aren't destroyed then? Why say specifically that they can't be summoned again for another 24 hours if that were the case?

I highly doubt it's a campaign based insurance policy. How many of those exist in the core rules?

Also the Named Summoning rules are related to the Planar Calling spells only so that has little effect on the Summoning Spells I use.

[scrmwrtr42]

As it's a GM's prerogative to implement house rules, of course, yours could come up with a story-based reason for your ability to summon the same monster repeatedly. The summon in the morning and summon at night for immunization purposes might come across as a little cheesy, though. However, as you might be willing to sacrifice your variety in the type of monster you can summon, he might consider it an equitable exchange. Have you asked him about it?

[Rayan]

Well as a Shadow Summoner you already lose the ability to summon several Monster's and in exchange you summon several different monsters. I have not asked him if he would let me do that because that wouldn't help me all that much. Also I'd only summon him in the morning for that immunization purpose. But the fact that if he's destroyed the whole immunization thing would be purposeless because I wouldn't be able to summon him again for 24 hours. I'd also be wasting one of my summons to be able to do that. That doesn't seem all that cheesy for a DC 15 check.

[Ginglebrix]

If summoning the same creature were possible.....

If I summoned Mike the dog, and put leather barding on him, would he take it with him when he left? And if so, would he reappear with it again?

I ask this silly question because certain familiars can use magic items and other gear.....made me wonder if a friendly or loyal creature summoned by a spell could "gear up" as well.

[Rayan]

Nope. Anything you give him would stay there when he went poof.
However I think if you Planar Called Mike and gave him some new digs he'd keep them. I could be wrong though.