|
I think this may have been me. I did this twice in the whole con, and they were both at the same table. I try to avoid color spray myself because of the "cheesiness" others have mentioned. In this particular case there was an NPC who I wanted to take out of the fight without harming, followed by a one-on-one confrontation where I needed to show how awesome I was.
Plus, all the other stuff I can do is so much more FUN!
Edit: and considering the absolutely ridiculous amount of lying I (my character) got away with in that scenario, I don't at all blame the GM if he thought I was pulling the wool over his eyes.
|
|
That Colorspray needs some persistence.And some Widen. A level 10 Oracle of Heavens with Widened Persistent Colour Spray hitting 24-28 squares from a level 5 spell slot and Spontaneous Metafocus to be able to do it even if they need to move first is a very dangerous thing. Just make sure to tell your BSF not to run out into the middle of the battlefield before you get to go.
Widen was never my thing. At the time you can cats level 5 spells fly allows you to get in thier face witht he 15foot cone from above.
Plus arcane bloodline allows you to metamagic enough times a day as a standard to not worry about it. The extra +1 dc for that bloodline is nice too.
Plus I like to use rods too. In case I need to make it Threnodic to get undead.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is not the fault of the players using the tools the game gives them, it's down to the people writing the modules to make sure they can reasonably challenge people playing the game.I just rolled a 2 on that save. The bad guy passes out.
Witch cackles as a move action.
Yay.
Just because you as a player have the ability to defeat the encounter instantly doesn't mean you should.
Why not?Because the game isn't about the final result. It's about the experience. And for me (and people not playing that SOS caster), the experience I want is one where I matter. I want to matter in that combat.
This is just a philosophy I have as a player. I want to be challenged. And winning with SOS spells is like playing Texas Holdem without betting. We both just show our hands and one person wins. The GM rolls a die, and we win. It's just too boring for me.
Some groups might like the early win, the shortest slot. Finishing games with color spray and sleep. But I don't. I've never seen a table cheer when the witch slumbers the final boss part way through his monologue. But I have seen dozens cheer when the team wins a well earned victory on the fifth, or sixth, or later turn.
So yes, that player should be held responsible for their decision. Not to belabor the point, but everyone at the table could have made a SOS specialist. But they didn't. They made characters they want to use to have fun. Fun alongside everyone else. The SOS caster didn't. They made a character that is fun for them and no one else. That's a problem.
|
|
stuff.
I like to use my colorspray once an adventure. If I have to use it a second time it is to save someone from dying.
I frequently use save or suck spells through the fight to remove people from the fight for a time so others have less to worry about at one time.
At the same extent. What is the difference between that and someone killing the boss in on full round attack/spirted charge?
I have seen that more than me SoSing the final bad guy. And I have a SoS specialist.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
stuff.I like to use my colorspray once an adventure. If I have to use it a second time it is to save someone from dying.
I frequently use save or suck spells through the fight to remove people from the fight for a time so others have less to worry about at one time.
At the same extent. What is the difference between that and someone killing the boss in on full round attack/spirted charge?
I have seen that more than me SoSing the final bad guy. And I have a SoS specialist.
Clarification: SOS spells are a tool. Spirited Charging is a tool. Using it over and over makes it a schtick. Using it to the extent that other players aren't enjoying the game doesn't sit well with me.
There is no difference between dropping someone with an SOS spell and charge/pounce-kitty killing them in my mind. Both are people playing a game with themselves, instead of with the other people at the table. By all means, build what you want, cast what you want, just be responsible with how you do both.
I guarantee if you play your character with others in mind, you'll have a better experience.
|
That Colorspray needs some persistence.And some Widen. A level 10 Oracle of Heavens with Widened Persistent Colour Spray hitting 24-28 squares from a level 5 spell slot and Spontaneous Metafocus to be able to do it even if they need to move first is a very dangerous thing. Just make sure to tell your BSF not to run out into the middle of the battlefield before you get to go.
Perhaps a Rod of Selection is what is needed - the lesser one is only 3000 gp. and ignore a few friendlies in zone
The Don't be a jerk rule should apply to the Oracle of Heavens that takes down everything.
And shortly for year 5 - they'll need to add piercing to their spell, as it is an SR spell.
And that Widened persistant Color Spray is not necessarily 5th level, if you take the traits that lower the spell level of spells with metamagic applied - depending on whether you are in the camp that both traits can apply to the same spell or not -I've heard it both ways - it could be a 3rd level or 4th level spell.
|
|
Clarification: SOS spells are a tool. Spirited Charging is a tool. Using it over and over makes it a schtick. Using it to the extent that other players aren't enjoying the game doesn't sit well with me.
Thanks for the clairification.
I have played with a bow fighter that ended 2 fights incluiding the boss fight before anyone got an attack. Then another fight I was swarmed with monsters and colorsprayed them to save myself and he complained the entire game how unfair it was.
I call it the delusion bubble. Where people can see everyone elses faults but never their own. I know if you do not peg the people that hog the game on all their pegs some will think it does not include them.
|
|
stuffs
I would disagree.
If the players at my table enjoyed the game I gave them, then it is not a fail.
Some players enjoy fighting. Some love the long drawn out fights where they need to scramble to survive.
I had a blast in sotrval stairs and that was pretty much all that was. If I was in a combat mod and some player did everything and we just watched. Well that is no fun either.
|
Part of the issue is that magic users especially tend to save our best stuff for the boss fight assumed to be at the end of the scenario. So we plod along for 3 hours game-time spamming acid splash or slinging stones, then it's BBEG time, player one nukes it, game over. It's anticlimactic because only one person got to do their super-awesome thing while everyone else saving up for this moment has their balloon deflated. Spotlight moment gone. Hours of character building, feats, gear, magic items, all unused.
One of the things GM's are encouraged to do in RPG's is to give everyone a chance to shine, a moment in the spotlight. This is harder to implement in PFS than home campaigns with the inability to adjust encounters (not complaining about this as I agree with the rule).
|
|
The problem is PF vs. PFS
In any fantasy system, Crowd Control is essential to survive over the course of characters life. Some adventures you're fighting dozens of enemies at a time and 1-2 front liners can not keep all those bad guys from reaching the 'squishies' with just AOO's.
Here's an example of something my home party had to deal with recently.
25 Hobgoblin Fighter 1,
4 Hobgoblin Thief 3,
2 Hobgoblin Cleric 4,
1 Hobgoblin Sorc 5,
1 Hobgoblin Fighter 7
PFS scenarios on the other hand have to work in a set time with any party. It's unreasonable to ask a GM to run a large encounter out of a scenario (at least the ones I've seen in my limited experience), so the major disadvantage to the SoS spells, limited HD/# of targets, is ignored because, as was pointed out earlier, it's usually only a few or single baddies at a time.
I guess I don't see what the difference is between using a SOS spell and a gunslinger/ranger doing a full round attack against the BBEG?
Regular attacks are less dull because there's the possibility of a partial success (e.g., you wounded the bad guy but you didn't kill him). Spells where the bad guy either saves (which is not very interesting) or is put completely out of commission in one shot with nobody else's help (which is not very interesting either) with nothing in between are kind of anti-climactic.
|
|
I guess I don't see what the difference is between using a SOS spell and a gunslinger/ranger doing a full round attack against the BBEG?Regular attacks are less dull because there's the possibility of a partial success (e.g., you wounded the bad guy but you didn't kill him). Spells where the bad guy either saves (which is not very interesting) or is put completely out of commission in one shot with nobody else's help (which is not very interesting either) with nothing in between are kind of anti-climactic.
When playes can build a class to do crazy amount of damage(which they easily can). There is not difference between the HP one kill shot or the SoS one shot. I was playing a level 6. The bow fighter weakest attack that he complained about did 61 points of damage and still won the fight in one attack. I seen a spirited charge character doing similar things.
Plus if many damage based class if they FAIL to kill in one hit they still weaken things. Next turn the chance are way less than 5% they survive again if they do not change up the battle.
A SoS has a hard time matchign that.
|
Boss fights are supposed to be the best fights in the scenario. As a player, I don't remember the random ghouls, guards, or goblins on my way to fight the dragon, but I'll definitely remember the dragon. I take it as my mission as a GM to make the other fights finish quickly (one way or another) to give my table the chance to have a long, rewarding encounter at the end. Almost like the rest of the scenario was building to the final confrontation.
See that is something that I am also inclined to disagree with. I see no reason for things to be saved up for a fight, especially in something as short as a scenario. If it were a campaign I could see actually battling some kind of final foe but in PFS it's just illogically like the 3rd or 4th fight in a given day/situation is extra hard because BOSS FIGHTS AM AWESOME RAWR. Every module seems to have one which makes them meaningless.
I have never seen a Boss fight been the best fight in a scenario, if that is what they are supposed to be then people are failing at designing that kind of situation.
I will thank any person I game with at a table who ends one of these things round one so we can move on with things. I'm not even going to call them boss fights anymore. They've officially be downgraded to the hard fight.
|
there is a very small failure rate in gunslinger full attacks also, honestly.
though far fewer dice are rolled during the save or lose spell effect.
Not when it is me doing the rolling!
Seriously, Saturday night, playing Portal of the Sacred Run, Munny managed to misfire three times on the second or third attack in the round (hasten, rapid ire musket master), and that is with him using a reroll against the BBEG!!!
Oh, and no crits :(
There is not difference between the HP one kill shot or the SoS one shot.
I don't know what to tell you. I've seen lots of cases where a gunslinger was only partially successful, and no cases where a Color Spray was only partially successful.
Originally, she walked into this game with major damage causing spells. Roll lots of dice damage. Results? Heavily damage monsters got to kick around the PCs.
Why are the other PCs not easily polishing off the "heavily damaged monsters"? Obviously I'm missing some context.
|
|
if you don't over-optimize a blaster, they stop being effective around level 7-8.
You need to rely on things like dazing spell, or one level of cross-blooded sorc to really get your damage high enough to kill enemies quickly.
Even then, save or dies are STILL more effective.
Slow is one of the most powerful spells in pathfinder, but you have to get kind close. however your frontliners will love you :)
however, I think I have more fun playing my blaster than any of my other characters :)
|
|
Originally, she walked into this game with major damage causing spells. Roll lots of dice damage. Results? Heavily damage monsters got to kick around the PCs.Why are the other PCs not easily polishing off the "heavily damaged monsters"? Obviously I'm missing some context.some are - some not. It depends.
The melee specialist kills anything he can full round attack (almost all the time. His damage output can out pace hers.) the Ranger Archer often does put things down - but if he goes before her in Init (which often happens), he drops one or two monsters, then she 1/2 kills several others... and we are back to the A) vs. B) issue. Kind of depends on Init. order.
Even the Druid (a melee Druid) has been switching her spells over to One-Shots, or long term Buff spells, and away from damage dealing spells. The damage she can output isn't enough to take a baddie out...
If the ranger was attacking enemies that were in the radius of her blast spells, he might have been able to instead of dropping on or two monsters, get three or four monsters injured enough that she will take them all out. This, of course, gambles on her initiative coming relatively soon compared to those four (one way to ensure this is to pick enemies who acted before the ranger already if it's the first round, or to just pick ones who go after the blaster on any other round).
|
|
If the ranger was attacking enemies that were in the radius of her blast spells, he might have been able to instead of dropping on or two monsters, get three or four monsters injured enough that she will take them all out. This, of course, gambles on her initiative coming relatively soon compared to those four (one way to ensure this is to pick enemies who acted before the ranger already if it's the first round, or to just pick ones who go after the blaster on any other round).Originally, she walked into this game with major damage causing spells. Roll lots of dice damage. Results? Heavily damage monsters got to kick around the PCs.Why are the other PCs not easily polishing off the "heavily damaged monsters"? Obviously I'm missing some context.some are - some not. It depends.
The melee specialist kills anything he can full round attack (almost all the time. His damage output can out pace hers.) the Ranger Archer often does put things down - but if he goes before her in Init (which often happens), he drops one or two monsters, then she 1/2 kills several others... and we are back to the A) vs. B) issue. Kind of depends on Init. order.
Even the Druid (a melee Druid) has been switching her spells over to One-Shots, or long term Buff spells, and away from damage dealing spells. The damage she can output isn't enough to take a baddie out...
Or the archer could delay until after the blaster and pick off all the weakened targets, spreading the arrows around as appropriate.
|
|
Or the archer could delay until after the blaster and pick off all the weakened targets, spreading the arrows around as appropriate.If the ranger was attacking enemies that were in the radius of her blast spells, he might have been able to instead of dropping on or two monsters, get three or four monsters injured enough that she will take them all out. This, of course, gambles on her initiative coming relatively soon compared to those four (one way to ensure this is to pick enemies who acted before the ranger already if it's the first round, or to just pick ones who go after the blaster on any other round).Originally, she walked into this game with major damage causing spells. Roll lots of dice damage. Results? Heavily damage monsters got to kick around the PCs.Why are the other PCs not easily polishing off the "heavily damaged monsters"? Obviously I'm missing some context.some are - some not. It depends.
The melee specialist kills anything he can full round attack (almost all the time. His damage output can out pace hers.) the Ranger Archer often does put things down - but if he goes before her in Init (which often happens), he drops one or two monsters, then she 1/2 kills several others... and we are back to the A) vs. B) issue. Kind of depends on Init. order.
Even the Druid (a melee Druid) has been switching her spells over to One-Shots, or long term Buff spells, and away from damage dealing spells. The damage she can output isn't enough to take a baddie out...
Sadly, I hear it's rare to see such teamwork. Personally I always try to combo like this, but I've heard that most players are more interested in the glory of how many "kills" they can personally rack up as quickly as possible. In our lodge, at least, that isn't prevailing, but from hearsay it's common.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
What RE and Fromper said.
Imagine if the blaster went first and damaged every monster. Now imagine that the archer (or whoever) lays into one monster, drops it halfway through their full-attack, and then keeps pummeling the body instead of switching targets. That's exactly what they're doing when they go first and kill one monster who was going to be in the AoE. Obviously it's different if the AoE is less than certain, but if you know it's coming, attack appropriately.
|
|
This is exactly why I took Improved Initiative and Reactionary on my one blaster character, and that's not even a primary blaster. Get the blast off before my allies rush into the middle of the enemies, both to avoid friendly fire and to soften up the targets for the melee guys and archers.
Edit: Typed too fast.
|
|
This is exactly why I took Improved Initiative and Reactionary on my one blaster character, and that's not even a primary blaster. Get the blast off before my allies rush into the middle of the enemies, both to avoid friendly fire and to soften up the targets for the melee guys and archers.
Edit: Typed too fast.
It's nice to have +25 initiative unbuffed, or occasionally over +40 initiative fully buffed, just to make sure everyone knows which enemies are going to be dazed for multiple rounds before they choose their targets. Nonetheless, I find that when I don't want to use my best slots, going first usually means throwing up a buff or telekinetic charge on the barbarian before he goes all superstitious.
|
|
The problem is, many archers also have similar initiative :)
though, as RE said, it's rare to see people delaying for bonuses.
I have a bard and i'm like "I'll cast good hope and start performing" and the other people respond with (actions, not words) "nah +4 on all my dice rolls sucks"
With Lingering Performance, I often try to keep up extended good hope at all times and then dance just before a door or a dimension door to avoid this issue. If not, then it's their own fault for missing out on the boosts.
|
|
With Lingering Performance, I often try to keep up extended good hope at all times and then dance just before a door or a dimension door to avoid this issue. If not, then it's their own fault for missing out on the boosts.The problem is, many archers also have similar initiative :)
though, as RE said, it's rare to see people delaying for bonuses.
I have a bard and i'm like "I'll cast good hope and start performing" and the other people respond with (actions, not words) "nah +4 on all my dice rolls sucks"
An excellent tactic, but my bard is in kingmaker and encounters happen at a nebulous time over the course of days, so even hour per level buffs are sketchy to have always on :-/ though in dungeons this tactic is both effective and wise :)
|
|
An excellent tactic, but my bard is in kingmaker and encounters happen at a nebulous time over the course of days, so even hour per level buffs are sketchy to have always on :-/ though in dungeons this tactic is both effective and wise :)With Lingering Performance, I often try to keep up extended good hope at all times and then dance just before a door or a dimension door to avoid this issue. If not, then it's their own fault for missing out on the boosts.The problem is, many archers also have similar initiative :)
though, as RE said, it's rare to see people delaying for bonuses.
I have a bard and i'm like "I'll cast good hope and start performing" and the other people respond with (actions, not words) "nah +4 on all my dice rolls sucks"
Funny, I'm the king in Kingmaker. We rarely get into a fight that our crazy Magister hasn't divined or our air elemental scout druid hasn't scouted first. The last time we were surprised was pretty epic though
Of course, if they aren't up yet, Inspire + Good Hope is always always my first move.
|
|
Hey guys,
I've referenced this thread, and somewhat responded to it, in another thread, so I thought it would be best to make a note of that.
-Matt
|
|
The problem is, many archers also have similar initiative :)
though, as RE said, it's rare to see people delaying for bonuses.
I have a bard and i'm like "I'll cast good hope and start performing" and the other people respond with (actions, not words) "nah +4 on all my dice rolls sucks"
With my archer bard, when I don't go first, I always say "My first actions every single combat are Haste + Inspire Courage." (I think I only made an exception to this once and amended it to Good Hope when we had a sorceress who cast haste every single battle) And this is for PFS, so I say it at the beginning of every single combat since most people won't be familiar with my character. Of course, I could roll awful init (He doesn't have that great of init), but people tend to listen when I tell them +4 on attack rolls with extra attack on full attack. Especially the other archers. :p
(And usually good hope is already up at that point if we know what's coming)
|
|
My question is, how do people even know combat is about to begin before casting all of these buffs? Even my gloves of reconnaissance usually let me down in knowing if a fight is about to take place (and I know some GMs hate them).
They are a fabulous 2000 gp item - I just learned the hard way that you better have dark vision if you buy them. (for those that don't know you can see through walls or doors - about 10 times a day if you are careful.