Sohei or Zen Archer for Bow User?


Advice

Sovereign Court

Was wondering what peoples thoughts are on making a long ranged bow user. The Zen archer seems pretty great but I noticed Sohei could take the ranged weapon group at 6th level and get +atk/+dmg for bow to flurry of blows with a bow.

The reason why I'm really curious is a Zen Archer can't use Rapid Shot or Manyshot with his FoB but it doesn't state that with a Sohei. But, Zen Archer gets access to a lot of nice bonus feats. Let me know what you think is better! Thanks.


All in all, the Zen Archer is still better than the Sohei in my opinion because the Zen Archer can Flurry with his Bows right from first level, whereas the Sohei has to reach level 6 before he/she can do the same. That said, the Sohei would have more weapon options than the Zen Archer with regards to the Flurry ability, but the Zen Archer still has more stuff to do with his/her Bows during a Flurry than a Sohei due to the Zen Archer's abilities that add to his capabilities.

The Zen Archer still has his fast movement as part of the archetype whilst the Sohei loses fast movement in favor of getting some minor buffs to apply to his/her mount.

All in all, the Zen Archer would make a better Archer than a Sohei for the most part, but the Sohei can be more than just an archer, just my opinion though.

Shadow Lodge

Zen Archer>Sohei. Zen archer gets
1.)The ability to Flurry with a bow
2.)Early access to ranged feats
3.)Wis to hit at level 3
4.)Perfect Strike
5.)A lot of cooler things than Sohei.

Sohei gets
1.)A cool thing to do with a mount (if he ever buys one)
2.)Proficiency with weapons that are great in melee
3.)Rapid&Many Shot with Flurry (A technicality that some GM's will probably not allow).
4.)The ability to flurry with bows (At level 6).
5.)The magus way of enchanting weapons(minus the weapon properties).

As I said before, Zen Archer>Sohei.


I think the Zen Archer is going to get you better results. It just gives you so much stuff for free.

Point Blank Master, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Perfect Strike, add wisdom to attack rolls... And all of your monk bonus feats can go into Archery. (And give you early access)

With all of that, you're free to take other feats. Toughness, Improved Initiative, if you're a dwarf, Steel Soul... You really get to beef up your character in other ways. You'll only occasionally need to spend your normal feats on archery; namely Deadly Aim. Clustered Shots and Hammer the Gap might be nice later on.

A Sohei doesn't get those bonus archery feats and can't use his monk feats to advance archery. And being able to take Many shot and Rapid shot isn't that amazing when you already have so many attacks. Who wants to add more penalties when you're already firing 5 shots/round by level 8. (6 with haste) And you don't exactly have feats to spare to waste on Manyshot and Rapid Shot.

Maybe at much, much higher levels they become more comparable, but for the first... probably at least 12 levels, Zen Archer is ahead by quite a lot in terms of archery.


Only thing about Zen Archer is that to really leverage WIS to Attack rolls, you shouldn't really put much into DEX, beyond what's needed to qualify for Deadly Aim (and you could use Belt/Ioun stone to achieve that). Maxing WIS and secondarily STR is the best bet for a Zen Archer, but it leaves them with crappy attack bonus for archery until they get WIS to Attack. So you may end up better in melee until that point.

I'm trying to build a Zen Archer/Inquisitor build, and I'm feeling like not bothering with gaining WIS to Attack even with the obvious synergy with Inquisitor casting stat, largely because of that problem and it detracts from more Inquisitor levels, so I will probably just take 1 level of Zen Archer even though it means I can't use Manyshot. Getting the equivalent of Rapid Fire+Full BAB via Zen Flurry, Perfect Shot, another bonus Feat (PBS), all Good Saves, and Imp UAS d6 seems good enough for me, I don't really have that many Feats anyways with Inquisitor to spend on Manyshot, much less take the other Feats normally (PBS+RapidFire). DEX 18/WIS 16/STR14 (or STR12 w/ CON12) Aasimar.


My only question about Zen Archer: Why is Manyshot a Bonus Feat when you can't use it with Flurry?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Quandary wrote:
My only question about Zen Archer: Why is Manyshot a Bonus Feat when you can't use it with Flurry?

Ummmm.... Trap feat? I can't think of an instance when you would be full attacking and using Manyshot but not have the option to Flurry, which would be as good or better.

*Edit*

Scratch the "as good as". Flurry for a Zen Archer is strictly better in every way, because you're getting full BAB with TWF penalties, vs. 3/4 BAB with penalties.

Sczarni

Quandary: if you're only taking one Zen level take Precise Shot as your bonus feat. You can pick up PBS later if you want it and have feats to spare.

If you don't plan on taking Manyshot (and you don't need rapid shot), getting to erase the -4 penalty for firing into melee is the way to go.


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Zen Archer is much better at early levels, up through level 6-8 range. After that, Sohei begins to over take it.

Zen Archer gives you a TON of archery feats or feat-equivalents (Flurry works like Rapid Shot, for example) the first few levels, and gives you Wis to attack and the ability to shoot w/o provoking, two things Sohei will *never* grant to you. Finally, at level 6 you get the very important Imp. Precise Shot, which Sohei won't have the BAB for until level freaking FIFTEEEN*!!!!
Sohei has a much rougher start, as he gets no archery feats as bonus feats (except Mounted Archery, I guess...) and has to purchase them all on his own, which by itself takes a while to do. He's also not getting to apply full BAB to his full attacks until level 6.

Once you hit level 6, the power switch begins to gradually take place. Sohei suddenly has more attacks than a Zen Archer and the same full BAB on a full attack, and weapon training (especially once you can afford gloves of dueling) helps make up for the attack shortfalls of taking two -2 penalties (flurry and rapid shot) and not being able to single stat the hell out of wisdom for your attack mod like zen archer can. Meanwhile, it's about this point where you've finally caught up on all the archery feats, and once you have [non-flurry] BAB of +6, you can get Manyshot and irrevocably pull ahead of zen archer, though the lack of Imp. Precise Shot still stings (Seeking bow property helps to mitigate some of the pain, but not all of it).

TL;DR: Zen Archer is better at lower levels, Sohei is better at higher levels. Sohei also offers promise as a mounted archer, if you can get a tough mount from somewhere. Zen Archer arguably becomes competitive with Sohei again at level 17+, thanks to his ability to flurry with a Stunning Fist arrow, a Touch of Serenity arrow, a Punishing Kick arrow, an Elemental Fist arrow, and a Perfect Strike arrow (if he starts buying up those feats at level 11 in anticipation) all on the same turn and do so Monk level times per day.

*I'd suggest ditching the Sohei class beyond 8th level for Fighter or something else w/ full BAB. That will let you get Imp. Precise Shot at level 13, at least. Possibly the difference between getting it at all or not. If you put in four Cavalier levels, Horse Master feat would give you the sturdy mount to make mounted archery possible. You'd want to get in the 4 Cav levels by level 11 so that your 11th level feat is Horse Master and 13th is clear for IPS.


I realized I made the most common mistake, thinking I could spend my normal 1st level Feat on Weapon Focus even though I don't really have BAB+1. So starting with Precise Shot and PBS looks pretty certain now. Even if I could have taken Weapon Focus at Level 1, I already realized that Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow was what I wanted, but I couldn't afford a Composite right away, so it would've be useless even if I could take Weapon Focus at Level 1. Given that I won't be getting any STR damage either, PBS is probably almost certain for 1st level.

Good thing is that with DEX and WIS I don't really need armor at 1st level, until I can afford Agile Mithril Breastplate there really isn't much point in wearing any, I might gain 1 point from also wearing a Buckler with Breastplate, but it would ruin my Touch AC and CMD... With the money saved I can afford plenty of stuff like MW arrows, bludgeoning arrows, CLW potion, etc.


For a mounted archer build the sohei is the better one. I keep on planning to "some day" play either a cavalier/sohei or a cavalier/ roughrider fighter as mounted archer.
Perhaps I should just do it. But most APs are not really good with mounted builds.

Except small ones.


Zen archer is really good through all levels, Sohei does not give you much when you don't use mounts.
The overall package of ZA is much better IMO.

The only funny thing is that you can't even afford a decent bow at the beginning, so you will probably have to melee with it until you find or can afford one. Totally doable though :-)

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Umbranus wrote:

For a mounted archer build the sohei is the better one. I keep on planning to "some day" play either a cavalier/sohei or a cavalier/ roughrider fighter as mounted archer.

Perhaps I should just do it. But most APs are not really good with mounted builds.

Except small ones.

In the new Faiths and Philosophies book, there's a two feat tree that gives you a mount with ranger progression. If you grab those feats (probably have to play a human to accomodate archery and the pet feat tax) you don't have to multi-class and lose any of the extra Flurry attacks you'd normally get. Monks get access to the 2nd and third "off-hand" attackas at Monk level 8 and Monk level 15, respectively, so even if you're just taking the Cavalier dip to get Expert trainer so you can pick up Horse Master, you're still delaying you last attack until level 19 or 20.

Plus, the new feats allow your Sohei to combine his ki tricks with a Ranger progression animal companion (one more feat for Boon Companion gets you Druid progression), so you don't really need to veer out of the class to have your cake and eat it too.

I feel like somewhere in there is the possibility of subbing out a few of the Sohei's core monk abilities for Qinggong abilities, and then sharing those with your mount.....

Sovereign Court

@Ssalarn - Excellent, thank you for that great advice.

EDIT: Even though it's outside of this conversation. That's great advice for a Dragoon also!

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Kysune wrote:

@Ssalarn - Excellent, thank you for that great advice.

EDIT: Even though it's outside of this conversation. That's great advice for a Dragoon also!

Yeah, Dragoon and Sohei were actually the first two classes I thought of when I saw those feats.


Zen archer~

One of my players is running a Zen Archer monk, and using Crane Style feats alongside it, makes him an absolute devil to deal with, because when he's in melee he can still fire his bow, and if he gets surrounded he can just pump his defense to high heavens and wait for backup.


You may want your mount to get the Stable Gallop feat.
Prereq: Animal or Magical Beast
Benefit: Your AC penalty when charging is halved. The penalties on ranged attacks made by your rider are reduced by 1 when you take a double move and by 2 when you run (minimum penalty of 0). Your rider gains a +4 bonus on concentration checks caused by your motion.

Combine that with the Mounted Archery feat to only ever take a -1 to ranged attacks if your mount double moves in a turn or -2 if your mount is running.

If you want to be the best mounted archer you become a Samurai 4/Monk (Zen Archer) X. While taking the Mounted Archery feat for yourself and the Stable Gallop feat for your mount so you never take a penalty to shooting while on horseback whether the mount is double moving or running.

EDIT: The real difference between Sohei and Zen Archer is very simple. Sohei cares about being a vigilant-horseback-riding-monk-with-a-bow, a Zen Archer is different. A Zen Archer cares about being a monk-dealing-large-DPT-with-a-bow.

Its kind of like comparing a Cavalier to a Mounted Ranger with a bow. Sure the Sohei does get better over time but the key factor is really money investment. Their weapon of choice can be a simple Silversheen Mwk Katana that costed 1100 gold. They never have to spend money to enhance it to +5 or make it adamantine/lawful/cold iron/magic.

A Zen Archer may have to spend 8530 for a Composite Longbow (+4 STR) of +1 Distance. Then they have to sink say 500+ if not more gold into ammunition unless they opt to go for Endless Quiver (+2) weapon enhancement.

Still leaves the Sohei either way at least 7000+ gold to spend on other items like armor for himself and barding for his mount or a magic item for saves/ac/natural armor or other magic items.

However the Sohei using Strike+Ki Weapon on a Silversheen Katana for the scary possibility of any of the seven swings during that flurry could be a critical hit on a 15-20/x2 weapon that is treated by Sohei monk as a +5 Silver/Cold Iron/Magic/Lawful/Adamantine weapon.


Ssalarn wrote:
In the new Faiths and Philosophies book, there's a two feat tree that gives you a mount with ranger progression.

These sound interesting! What are they called?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Durinor wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
In the new Faiths and Philosophies book, there's a two feat tree that gives you a mount with ranger progression.

These sound interesting! What are they called?

Pathfinder Player Companion: Faiths & Philosophies

Nature Soul
Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Knowledge (nature)
checks and Survival checks.
Animal Ally
Prerequisites: Nature Soul, character level 4th,
Benefit: You gain an animal companion as if you were
a druid of your character level –3 from the following
list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse,
pony, snake (viper), or wolf.


Ssalarn wrote:

In the new Faiths and Philosophies book, there's a two feat tree that gives you a mount with ranger progression. If you grab those feats (probably have to play a human to accomodate archery and the pet feat tax) you don't have to multi-class and lose any of the extra Flurry attacks you'd normally get. Monks get access to the 2nd and third "off-hand" attackas at Monk level 8 and Monk level 15, respectively, so even if you're just taking the Cavalier dip to get Expert trainer so you can pick up Horse Master, you're still delaying you last attack until level 19 or 20.

Plus, the new feats allow your Sohei to combine his ki tricks with a Ranger progression animal companion (one more feat for Boon Companion gets you Druid progression), so you don't really need to veer out of the class to have your cake and eat it too.

I feel like somewhere in there is the possibility of subbing out a few of the Sohei's core monk abilities for Qinggong abilities, and then sharing those with your mount.....

Three feats for a full progression companion is a very steep price... Especially for the Sohei archer who has to deal with the huge archery feat tree w/ no bonus feat support from his class whatsoever.

Point Blank
Precise
Rapid
Manyshot
Deadly Aim (I suppose w/ the -4 to hit between flurry and rapid, this is more expendable)
Clustered Shots
...these feats + Boon Companion for the mount

Seems untenable in most situations. Unless you start at level 8-10 or higher, and dip out of Sohei to Fighter after Sohei 6, at least for a few levels. Though Sohei Archer is pretty terrible before level 6 anyway.


Quandary wrote:
My only question about Zen Archer: Why is Manyshot a Bonus Feat when you can't use it with Flurry?

There are MANY bonus feats for monks, rangers, etc that are 'useless' compared to other choices, etc. I'm not sure if the idea is 'trap' feats, or lack of thinking, etc.

-James


Two or three feats is quite doable for a zen archer I'm thinking, and you don't really need mounted archery - you'll still get to move your mount's speed and make a full attack at no penalty.


Quandary wrote:

I realized I made the most common mistake, thinking I could spend my normal 1st level Feat on Weapon Focus even though I don't really have BAB+1. So starting with Precise Shot and PBS looks pretty certain now. Even if I could have taken Weapon Focus at Level 1, I already realized that Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow was what I wanted, but I couldn't afford a Composite right away, so it would've be useless even if I could take Weapon Focus at Level 1. Given that I won't be getting any STR damage either, PBS is probably almost certain for 1st level.

Good thing is that with DEX and WIS I don't really need armor at 1st level, until I can afford Agile Mithril Breastplate there really isn't much point in wearing any, I might gain 1 point from also wearing a Buckler with Breastplate, but it would ruin my Touch AC and CMD... With the money saved I can afford plenty of stuff like MW arrows, bludgeoning arrows, CLW potion, etc.

Quandary,

1) If you're taking Zen Archer, you get Weapon Focus for free at 2nd level.

2) There's no separate Weapon Focus for composite vs. regular bow. It's just "Weapon Focus: Longbow", and it applies to both.

3) Don't waste your money on masterwork ammunition. The to hit bonus doesn't stack with a masterwork bow, which you will want to get as soon as you can afford it. (If this is for PFS, 2 prestige points gets you a composite greenwood longbow for +2 Strength.)

4) I love the special arrows. I'm a big fan of Durable arrows. Blunt arrows are good for skeletons and doing non-lethal damage when necessary. Splinter cloud arrows are the next ones I'm looking at getting, for use against swarms.


I wasn't planning to go further into Monk because I'd prefer Inquisitor progression.
Zen3 is great for WIS to Ranged, but to make good use of that your Ranged to-hit will need to suck until that point, and I'd rather not, and again: I prefer Inquisitor progression for this character. Zen1 is justifiable as a dip for the bonus Feats and Flurry (effectively Rapid Fire with BAB +1) and Good Saves, more than that just screws up Inquisitor progression. I'm sure straight Zen Monk is great on it's own, I'm just going for a different thing.

Good to know on Comp/Regular Longbow, I just figured since they are separate weapons they require separate Focuses.
The rules aren't totally clear there, but I won't argue with applying "For purposes of Weapon Proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow." to Weapon Focus.

Of course once I have a MW Composite bow, I have no need for normal MW arrows, although some special materials automatically include the MW. It was just for 1st level, and since I won't have armor, I think I can afford a few MW arrows for an extra +1 until I get the MW bow, as well as a CLW Potion (until I enter Inquisitor and can use scrolls).

Is the Prestige Point Composite +2 Bow for a specific Faction? The character was probably going to be Silver Crusade. Conveniently, I'm not looking at having more than +2 STR mod starting out (I certainly would try to if going full Zen Archer), and I guess I can get that 'flexible' enchant that adjusts the Composite rating, or just get a new bow when I boost STR since I didn't put any gold into the greenwood bow to begin with.

Yeah, I was mainly thinking of Blunt arrows as the first thing to pick up at 1st level besides regular ones. I'll have to check out Splinter Cloud arrows too.

I might start another thread to ask for advice, although most options at this point revolve around non-combat or not-explicitly combat options. Pretty sure I'm going with Love Subdomain though :-)


Quandary wrote:
Zen1 is justifiable as a dip for the bonus Feats and Flurry (effectively Rapid Fire with BAB +1) and Good Saves, more than that just screws up Inquisitor progression.

You will miss out on Manyshot at higher levels. What are you looking to achieve with the character?

-James


Yeah, I know about Manyshot. I figure I will do fine with Judgement/Bane and Spells,
after all I'll just be 1 level behind full Inquisitors with a bunch more bonus Feats including Perfect Strike.
I also can't ever get Point Blank Master, but I'm OK with that, I don't need to negate every downside completely, I can adjust tactics around it like people always have for Ranged.
I like the other spells, domain abilities that go with my Deity choice (Nalinivati, Naga deity from Tian Xia) as well as other inquisitor abilities.
Starting out with 14STR, 18DEX, 16WIS, nothing dumped..
Possibly considering 12 STR and CON, but I don't think I really need it with Monk + Inquisitor Fort Saves + Inquisitor healing spells/scrolls.
Main questions are what Inquisitor archetypes (Preacher for sure, maybe Heretic or Infiltrator).
I don't think I really need the WIS to Diplomacy, since the Subdomain ability gives me scaling DC Charm Person as a Swift Action (giving the lowest Diplomacy DC and enabling making Requests in combat since they are no longer Hostile to you) albeit that's rather late at Inquisitor level 8, and I'm also looking at an Aasimar Trait "Innocent' that gives me the easiest DC for lying with Bluff. WIS to Diplomacy/Bluff could let me dump CHA, but if I don't really need the bonus in the first place, why bother, havig a non-atrocious CHA is useful for some things like straight ability checks as well as not getting insta-wasted from CHA damage, and I don't know if I prefer the vanilla Inquisitor abilities to what you get from those Archetypes. I would have a great Stealth modifier if I maxed that an applied both DEX and WIS, but that's not necessarily the character focus, and I think there's enough other skills I might be interested in. I may go with one archetype, but it's not that crucial either way IMHO...
Being an Aasimar with an Arcane SLA also qualifies for Arcane Strike, which I may get from 1st level.
I'm not quite sure on my whole Feat progression, I may just not pick up PBS at all now, instead getting Weapon Focus alongside Arcane Strike. Stunning Fist and Mantis Style seems nice for a melee option, but then I'm also inclined to get Weapon Finesse, which is alot of Feats. I can still fit in Deadly Aim, and Spell Bane (+2 Spell DC which includes the Domain SLA while using Bane). No room before 13th with all of those, but other options were Deep Sight, Expanded Arcana (Spells Known), and maybe Great Fortitude.

rough draft character sheet:

Seuchol Prikath
NG Garuda-Aasimar: Scion of Humanity (Dtang), Truespeaker, Deathless Spirit
Initiative +4 Perception +3 (Darkvision 60')
STR 14 DEX 16+2=18 CON 10 INT 10 WIS 14+2=16 CHA 10

Zen Archer1/Inquisitor(Heretic/Infiltrator?, Preacher)X of Nalinivati (N Naga deity, Love Subdomain)
Fort +2 Reflex +6 Will +5 (Deathless Spirit: +2 vs. Necro/etc)
HP 8 (Deathless Spirit: Negative Resist 5, no level drain HP loss)
AC 17 unarmored (20 BreastPlate (0 ACP Agile Mitrhil) w/ Buckler) CMD 19

SLA: See Invisibility 1/day

Traits:
RACE: Innocent (Bluff, Blood of Angels)?, Speech of Wilds (+1 lang)?,
REGIONAL: Acupuncturist (+2 Poison, Dragon Empires), Heart of Clay (+1 Fort, Dragon Empires)
COMBAT: Resilient (+1 Fort)
FAITH: Birthmark (Symbol, +2 vs. Charm/Compulsion), Spirit Sense (+2 Perception vs. Surprise/Invis/Incorp, Ult Camp)

Feats: Arcane Strike
Bonus Feats: Imp IUS, Perfect Strike, Precise Shot
->Weapon Focus(Comp Longbow)/Weapon Finesse/Stunning Fist/Mantis Style/Spell Bane?(UC)/Deadly Aim?
->Deep Sight/Expanded Arcana/Great Fortitude?

Languages: Dtang, Tien, Common(Taldane)

Skills: 4 (->Inquisitor 6+FC?)
Linguistics: +5 Draconic/Celestial (Truespeaker) ->Hwan/Senzor/Vudrani/Kelesh/Osirioni?
-Acrobatics: +8!
Swim: +6
Climb: +6

(Skills to take from 2nd level with Inquisitor: ! is for maxed out, given modifiers are 1st level with no ranks)
-Perception!: +3
-Sense Motive! +5 (Truespeaker)
-Bluff
-Diplomacy
Know(Nature/Religion/Arcane?)
Sleight of Hand?
Spellcraft
Stealth: +4
PP-Escape Artist: +4
-Survival
FC-Know:Nature?
Know:Arcane?Planes?
?

Gear
Longbow
MW Arrows (30)
Daggers?
CLW Potion


For the purposes of just having a decent mount, I don't know if I'd go all three feats. The -3 class level mount isn't "that" bad, especially if you're a Sohei can are adding additional stuff to it too.

I mean, if your a Sohei or Dragoon, what are your options?

1. If its allowed in your campaign, wait until 7th level or higher to get Leadership and have a Pegasus/Griffon/whatever that can gain class levels and serve as a mount.

2. Dip 4 levels of Cavalier and take a feat, get a horse, dog, pony, or wolf

3. Take 2 to 3 feats, get a horse, dog, or wolf.

4. Get a Death's Head Talisman and have some sort of undead mount (assuming an evil or at least very tolerant campaign setting).

5. Max out your UMD, have your wizard buddy regularly make you scrolls of Phantom Steed.

Scarab Sages

@ Quandry: Whoops, my bad. Misread.

However you can be a Sohei 10/Samurai 3/Dragoon 7
Reason? Lances are under the spear family, Sohei can flurry and Ki Strike any weapon under the spear family. At 10th level a Sohei can Ki Strike with a Lance to make it Magic/Cold Iron/Silver/Lawful and can even spend a ki point to give it a +2 weapon enhancement for that turn.

You could also be a Sohei 6/Samurai 3/Dragon 7/Paladin 4 (Oath of Vengeance) considering that Oath of Vengeance can allow trading of two uses each of Lay on Hands for an extra usage Smite Evil. Plus Smite ignores every DR in the game and does bonus damage and gives a bonus to hit.


FYI, Sohei Weapon Training replaces Purity of Body and Diamond Body.


Quandary,

The 2 prestige points is for a single item worth up to 750 gold. No specific faction necessary.

For an archer, that gets you a masterwork composite longbow at +2 strength (600 gp) or +3 strength (700 gp). You can make the +2 bow Greenwood for another 150 gp (exactly 750 total) or the +3 bow Darkwood for another 30 gp (for 730 total).

You don't have to use Greenwood or Darkwood, of course, but they help you maximize the value of your 2 prestige points.


Gotcha, I thought Greenwood was more like a unique item or something...
Sounds like the perfect thing to pick up after a scenario or two.
Once I have the MW bow, any MW arrows I have I can save for turning into magical arrows, e.g. Spell Storing.


I really like the Zen Archer myself. Bonus feats are just too juicy to pass up.


Momo Kimura wrote:


A Zen Archer may have to spend 8530 for a Composite Longbow (+4 STR) of +1 Distance. Then they have to sink say 500+ if not more gold into ammunition unless they opt to go for Endless Quiver (+2) weapon enhancement.

Momo,

I would skip the Str rating AND distance and simply go for +1 Adaptive so 3,000 + cost of masterwork bow. I can spend Ki when needed for increase of range increment by about 50% and normally that isn't needed that often. Also I could spend Ki to increase my bow damage to equal unarmed damage (Monk's vest would be worth the investment)


Deep sight with precise shot at level 1 makes a nasty sniper on a lightless night/in the dark. Flurry turn one, next turn move. Rinse and repeat.


Darkthorne68 wrote:
Deep sight with precise shot at level 1 makes a nasty sniper on a lightless night/in the dark. Flurry turn one, next turn move. Rinse and repeat.

My tiefling divine hunter prefers Devil Sight for that. :)

Paizo Employee Design Manager

StreamOfTheSky wrote:


Three feats for a full progression companion is a very steep price... Especially for the Sohei archer who has to deal with the huge archery feat tree w/ no bonus feat support from his class whatsoever.

Point Blank
Precise
Rapid
Manyshot
Deadly Aim (I suppose w/ the -4 to hit between flurry and rapid, this is more expendable)
Clustered Shots
...these feats + Boon Companion for the mount

Seems untenable in most situations. Unless you start at level 8-10 or higher, and dip out of Sohei to Fighter after Sohei 6, at least for a few levels. Though Sohei Archer is pretty terrible before level 6 anyway.

You don't need as many of those as early with the Sohei. Weapon Training and Ki Weapon help boost your damage, making Deadly Aim less necessary early on, and Ki Weapon can also help him bypass DR making Clusterd Shots less of a necessity. I might consider playing a human over another race so you can pick up PBS and Precise shot at 1st, then grab your mount feats at 3rd and 5th, switch to Rapid Shot and Manyshot at 7th and 9th, and you've covered all your bases, and can pick up Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, and Boon Companion pretty much in whatever order you want.

Mixed in with all that you're going to have several Monk bonus feats you can use for either Mounted Combat feats or other monk-ly goodness, making you a reasonable switch hitter, though I'd probably pick a good monk ranged weapon to use up until level 6, maybe something like the kyoketsu shoge, which will also be a good back-up melee weapon and which the Sohei is both automatically proficient with and can use to Flurry.

I think you actually end up with a better balanced character that way.

***EDIT*** Change that to the Sibat, I just realized the Kyoketsu shogi is exotic, not martial.


Quandary wrote:
any MW arrows I have I can save for turning into magical arrows, e.g. Spell Storing.

A number of problems with this.

1. Magic arrows are enchanted in lots of 50.

2. Spell storing is a melee weapon enhancement not ranged.

You could go with sleep arrows or the like as they are sold as single arrows.

-James


tomorrow wrote:

For the purposes of just having a decent mount, I don't know if I'd go all three feats. The -3 class level mount isn't "that" bad, especially if you're a Sohei can are adding additional stuff to it too.

I mean, if your a Sohei or Dragoon, what are your options?

1. If its allowed in your campaign, wait until 7th level or higher to get Leadership and have a Pegasus/Griffon/whatever that can gain class levels and serve as a mount.

2. Dip 4 levels of Cavalier and take a feat, get a horse, dog, pony, or wolf

3. Take 2 to 3 feats, get a horse, dog, or wolf.

4. Get a Death's Head Talisman and have some sort of undead mount (assuming an evil or at least very tolerant campaign setting).

5. Max out your UMD, have your wizard buddy regularly make you scrolls of Phantom Steed.

I agree, the options are all poor. Doesn't make any specific one of them good, just by comparison, though. Aside from leadership, which is a complete solution to the problem (but opens the door to so many new problems!), the best option if at all possible is generally #6: ride another PC's pet into battle. Not possible in PFS, of course, but not that uncommon in other games, especially if you already know another player and coordinate with him. Lots of classes and archetypes can get combat survivable pets now. Heck, you could even use another PC as the mount with a class like druid or synthesis. I've done that from both sides, being someone's mount and riding another PC.

Shadow Lodge

The real power of a sohei is in Gloves of Dueling.

Build: sohei6/fighter[Weapon Master:Bows]4//??? (take levels in any order you desire).

....at sohei6, select monk weapons as your other Weapon Training group. Have Quick Draw as a feat, and be able to switch-hit on the fly from bow to temple sword.

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