Orfamay Quest wrote: Paizo took home seven ENnies this week, if I count right. Privateer took home four. Kobold took home two, Dreamscarred and Super Genius none. Paizo is a larger company than and puts out more content than 3PPs. One would expect them to get more awards.
Justin Rocket wrote: chaoseffect wrote: Orfamay Quest wrote: And my time is too valuable for me to waste time haunting thrift stores. And it amuses me when someone says this while having an argument on a messageboard. That aside, I do see your point. No one can go through all 3PP stuff to find the best options, but it's worth keeping an open mind if someone approaches you with something they think is fair. Who has the time to keep an open mind when the last 9 people who tried to get you to use 3PP presented broken crap? Unless all 9 came in at once, it'll only take you about 10 minutes at most to browse through a class. If we're talking about a whole new rules subsystem, I could see your point. Then again you could always look it up to see the consensus on it and maybe make more allowances from there:
To internet: "Is Dreamscarred Psionics broken?"
Internet: "Hell no, it's great."
Justin Rocket wrote: chaoseffect wrote: Orfamay Quest wrote: And my time is too valuable for me to waste time haunting thrift stores. And it amuses me when someone says this while having an argument on a messageboard. That aside, I do see your point. No one can go through all 3PP stuff to find the best options, but it's worth keeping an open mind if someone approaches you with something they think is fair. Who has the time to keep an open mind when the last 9 people who tried to get you to use 3PP presented broken crap? Everybody.
Seriously, you really should listen to yourself sometimes.
chaoseffect wrote: Justin Rocket wrote: chaoseffect wrote: Orfamay Quest wrote: And my time is too valuable for me to waste time haunting thrift stores. And it amuses me when someone says this while having an argument on a messageboard. That aside, I do see your point. No one can go through all 3PP stuff to find the best options, but it's worth keeping an open mind if someone approaches you with something they think is fair. Who has the time to keep an open mind when the last 9 people who tried to get you to use 3PP presented broken crap? Unless all 9 came in at once, it'll only take you about 10 minutes at most to browse through a class. If we're talking about a whole new rules subsystem, I could see your point. Then again you could always look it up to see the consensus on it and maybe make more allowances from there:
To internet: "Is Dreamscarred Psionics broken?"
Internet: "Hell no, it's great." Because there's NEVER anything wrong on the Internet
Orfamay Quest wrote: And my time is too valuable for me to waste time haunting thrift stores. So, for that matter, is my money. Haunting thrift stores is something you do because you enjoy it, and if you enjoy it you'll try making time for it.
It would be silly to expect everyone to enjoy it though =)
Can't say that i'm against it, but really nothing till now passed the scrutiny. The only 3pp that someone has ever being allowed to play at my varius table is been a soulknife i'm playing, but only by virtue of the fact that the GM trust me blindly on avoiding all the broken thigs there are.
Zhayne wrote:
Everybody.
Seriously, you really should listen to yourself sometimes. you should do the same. Some people have that time, but not everyone.
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Justin Rocket wrote: Because there's NEVER anything wrong on the Internet Good point, you're a living example.
Vivianne Laflamme wrote: Orfamay Quest wrote: Paizo took home seven ENnies this week, if I count right. Privateer took home four. Kobold took home two, Dreamscarred and Super Genius none. Paizo is a larger company than and puts out more content than 3PPs. One would expect them to get more awards. Paizo is a larger company and has a larger editorial staff than 3PP. One would expect them to put out better content and to get more awards. Raging Swan, which was singled out just upthread as one of the better publishers, puts out more than one product a week. Where is its 2013 ENnie? Hell, where's its 2013 ENnie nomination?
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chaoseffect wrote: Justin Rocket wrote: Because there's NEVER anything wrong on the Internet Good point, you're a living example. Don't sink down to that level.
Justin Rocket wrote: Zhayne wrote:
Everybody.
Seriously, you really should listen to yourself sometimes. you should do the same. Some people have that time, but not everyone. You're right. I should have said 'anybody who really deserves to be a GM'.
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I wonder if certain people realize that Paizo was a third party publisher before the release of the Pathfinder Roleplasing Game. If most gamers had then tought, "oh they're just a 3PP, their stuff must be crap", there would be no Pathfinder game now.
Zhayne wrote: I should have said 'anybody who really deserves to be a GM'. I believe that a good GM is one who can put together a good adventure. Whether they accept 3PP has got nothing to do with that.
chaoseffect wrote:
And it amuses me when someone says this while having an argument on a messageboard. That aside, I do see your point. No one can go through all 3PP stuff to find the best options, but it's worth keeping an open mind if someone approaches you with something they think is fair.
That's more or less the exact same thing the last twenty-five snake oil salesmen I've had to speak to have said. An open mind doesn't mean an ignorance of history.
Part of it could be a holdover bias from the heyday of 3rd ed D&D. There was a vast amount of third-party stuff that was absolute shovelware drek. There is more than enough solid material put out from Paizo that I've not delved into 3PP material for Pathfinder so I cannot comment on its merits, but were I to publish a game right now I would most likely use the Pathfinder engine.
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I wonder if Paizo stuff produced as a third party publisher up to 2009 counts as "snake oil", too.
I'm shocked by the BADWRONGFUN attitude that the pro-3PP people have towards those of us who don't have the time to beta test all that 3PP content.
Zaister wrote: I wonder if certain people realize that Paizo was a third party publisher before the release of the Pathfinder Roleplasing Game. I suspect most of us do. I also suspect that most of the anti-3PP people on here waited until Paizo had a track record of not-turning-out-crap before they started following it.
Game publishing is a business like any other, and Sturgeon's Law applies: 90% of everything is crap. You'll never survive in the restaurant business if you just sit there and whine about how everyone visits the established chains and how no one gives "third-party restaurants" a chance. You survive in the restaurant business by being better than the competition, something that is fairly easy to do in the restaurant business (when was the last time that Zagrat's listed a McDonald's as a recommended place to go?), but apparently much harder to do when you're up against Paizo.
For aspiring 3PP publishers out there, earn my business. Make a product so good that I can't ignore it.
Zaister wrote: I wonder if Paizo stuff produced as a third party publisher up to 2009 counts as "snake oil", too. In my opinion, the quality of Pathfinder has sunk ever since the core rules were created. So, I don't see your point.
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Justin Rocket wrote: I'm shocked by the BADWRONGFUN attitude that the pro-3PP people have towards those of us who don't have the time to beta test all that 3PP content. As I am shocked at the BADWRONGFUN attitude that the anti-3PP people have towards those of us who are willing to and enjoy trying out 3PP content.
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Justin Rocket wrote: I'm shocked by the BADWRONGFUN attitude that the pro-3PP people have towards those of us who don't have the time to beta test all that 3PP content. It's completely acceptable, of course, if you don't use third party publisher products in your game. It's not acceptable, however, to go out here and basically imply that all such products are crap.
By the way, it's not a beta test if a product is finished.
Zaister wrote:
By the way, it's not a beta test if a product is finished.
Alternatively, it's not a finished product if you ship the beta.
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Orfamay Quest wrote: Zaister wrote:
By the way, it's not a beta test if a product is finished.
Alternatively, it's not a finished product if you ship the beta.
If you like to argue that way, you really should not be using any software these days.
And it's really not a nice thing to imply that all third party products are "beta".
Note, also, that if the 3PP publishers I've looked into are representative of the average, their writers make less than a McDonalds fry cook. Since time is money, they don't have the time to spend on developing quality content.
Which is not to say that it doesn't occasionally happen. Somebody has to win the lottery.
Zaister wrote: It's not acceptable, however, to go out here and basically imply that all such products are crap. I have repeatedly stated in this thread that good 3PP content exists.
Zaister wrote:
By the way, it's not a beta test if a product is finished.
My point exactly. Often, 3PP products are half baked.
TriOmegaZero wrote: Justin Rocket wrote: I'm shocked by the BADWRONGFUN attitude that the pro-3PP people have towards those of us who don't have the time to beta test all that 3PP content. As I am shocked at the BADWRONGFUN attitude that the anti-3PP people have towards those of us who are willing to and enjoy trying out 3PP content. I have never said that you are having BADWRONGFUN for using 3PP. No one in this thread has said that.
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Any care to mention the fact that Paizo got its start as a 3rd party publisher?
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
No one has had to. The attitude is there.
Is this thread actually looking to accomplish anything or just stir stuff up?
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
As to the title of the thread, I'd say hate is a very strong word for how anyone feels about 3pp.
Distrust is a much more accurate term, and a perfectly reasonable attitude to have.
Just like others have come to trust certain publishers. Really I don't get where the problem is.
TriOmegaZero wrote: No one has had to. The attitude is there. Careful when gauging attitude or tone in a place like this. It's so hard to do accurately. And impossible to change. Best to just change your perception of it and be happy. =)
TriOmegaZero wrote: No one has had to. The attitude is there. You take offense wherever you want to.
I'm not going to apologize for saying that the reason my friends and I have not used 3PP is because we don't have the time to review it.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Justin Rocket wrote: TriOmegaZero wrote: No one has had to. The attitude is there. You take offense wherever you want to. Just showing you the mirror friend.
Pro-tip: I'm not actually shocked or offended.
ShadowcatX wrote: Any care to mention the fact that Paizo got its start as a 3rd party publisher? I didn't use Paizo content until after it had proven itself.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Pro-tip: I'm not actually shocked or offended.
Because nobody actually took the attitude that you were having BADWRONGFUN for using 3PP.
*shrug*
My table, my gameworld, my rules.
I have a list of around 20 base classes that are allowed in my games (no prestige classes - that's my own prejudice, mainly carried over from D&D 3rd). This includes specific classes from 3PP (the Kobold Press Shaman being the most commonly used, as it replaces the standard Druid in my world). It also deliberately excludes certain classes from the core rulebook, while others have archetypes "by default" to fit the setting - Rangers not spellcasters, so use the skirmisher archetype by default; likewise, in my setting monasteries are centres of learning as much as martial training, so monks use the Sensei archetype by default.
I really don't see the reason for the 3PP prejudice. If there is an archetype I want for my game that is not covered by a Paizo product then of course I will look at 3PP products to fill the niche. Often, there are more than one available, so I can choose between them and edit them if I wish (I have added some setting specific totem secrets to the Kobold Shaman, for example).
This may change when the Advanced Class Guide comes out. At the very least, I will have to choose whether to keep using the Kobold Shaman or convert everything over to the "official" version. If my dreams come true and there is a "DIY" class generator, I may be able to go over to using my own classes which are purpose built for my game. But in the meantime, selective use of 3PP products is necessary for the games I run.
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Justin Rocket wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: Any care to mention the fact that Paizo got its start as a 3rd party publisher? I didn't use Paizo content until after it had proven itself. And how did you know they had? And at what point was that?
Zaister wrote: Justin Rocket wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: Any care to mention the fact that Paizo got its start as a 3rd party publisher? I didn't use Paizo content until after it had proven itself. And how did you know they had? And at what point was that? Around the time that Pathfinder came out.
Justin Rocket wrote: Zaister wrote: Justin Rocket wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: Any care to mention the fact that Paizo got its start as a 3rd party publisher? I didn't use Paizo content until after it had proven itself. And how did you know they had? And at what point was that? Around the time that Pathfinder came out. So you just said "Hey, that 3rd party publisher is releasing a game... They must be radical, lets buy their stuff!"?
Justin Rocket wrote: Note, also, that if the 3PP publishers I've looked into are representative of the average... I thought you said you didn't have time to look at many 3PPs, since your time is sooooo valuable, so you could not possibly have obtained a representative sample.
Also something to muse over:
3.5 WotC was arguably entirely 3rd party. Two of the three designers of 3.0 left before 3.5 came out. Skip Williams and Monte Cook both produced their own "3rd party" books for 3.5, which were among the best done 3.5 books (1st or 3rd party). So arguably, Cook's Complete Book of Eldritch Might should be considered a 1st party book, while the 3.5 core rules (and all subsequent WotC 3.5 books) are actually 3rd party!
Justin Rocket wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: Any care to mention the fact that Paizo got its start as a 3rd party publisher? I didn't use Paizo content until after it had proven itself. So now that DSP has proven that they understand game balance better than Paizo or WotC, would you consider using their stuff?
Zaister wrote:
And it's really not a nice thing to imply that all third party products are "beta".
Reality is under no obligation to be nice, any more than it's under an obligation to be polite.
While I acknowledge that some 3PP products are complete and well-made, an uncomfortably large number of them are effectively beta versions.
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The derogatory comment about 3PP companies quoted in the opening post was a very insulting and uninformed comment. 3PP companies like Kobold Press are *hardly* fan-fiction. The same can be said for the other big, main publishers. And I promise you that MANY people do not just hit 'back' when they see third party publisher. MANY people buy material, especially from the big 3PP's. You clearly have some sort of agenda you are trying to push and, frankly, it's pretty lame.
Companies like Kobold Press are run by ex-Wizards folks just like Paizo, employ many of the same writers and artists that Paizo does and in many cases they are all friends who work on each others stuff.
Frankly, I think mplindustries owes the 3PP folks that work extremely hard and do as great a job as Paizo does a sincere apology.
Orfamay Quest wrote: Zaister wrote:
And it's really not a nice thing to imply that all third party products are "beta".
Reality is under no obligation to be nice, any more than it's under an obligation to be polite.
While I acknowledge that some 3PP products are complete and well-made, an uncomfortably large number of them are effectively beta versions. [citation needed]
Orfamay Quest wrote: Zaister wrote:
And it's really not a nice thing to imply that all third party products are "beta".
Reality is under no obligation to be nice, any more than it's under an obligation to be polite.
While I acknowledge that some 3PP products are complete and well-made, an uncomfortably large number of them are effectively beta versions. Examples? If by "third party product" you are referring to, say, a thread posted on the homebrew forum, then yes, I would agree that a lot of that is not polished. But of the main 3rd party publishers (FGG, DSP, Kobold Press, Rite), I haven't seen any "effectively beta versions".
I will say that a couple publishers have a tendency to do stuff like that...(I'm looking at you, Adamant Entertainment's version of the Warlock). But the good publishers? Never put out anything less polished than, say, the Summoner (which, like it or not, is really effectively beta). Or WotC's Truenamer.
The reasons i don't use 3pp are two.
1) No full colour, yes there might some of them that have full colour but i haven't see any, it's really a big thing for me.
2) I am mostly content with what Paizo publishes, in fact i can't really follow all of that.
If a player comes to me with a 3pp i will try to find the time to check if it's ok for my game, keep in mind that i would do the same for anything Paizo made but i didn't know about.
137ben wrote:
I thought you said you didn't have time to look at many 3PPs, since your time is sooooo valuable, so you could not possibly have obtained a representative sample.
Did you see that 'If' I started my statement with?
137ben wrote:
3.5 WotC was arguably entirely 3rd party. Two of the three designers of 3.0 left before 3.5 came out. Skip Williams and Monte Cook both produced their own "3rd party" books for 3.5, which were among the best done 3.5 books (1st or 3rd party). So arguably, Cook's Complete Book of Eldritch Might should be considered a 1st party book, while the 3.5 core rules (and all subsequent WotC 3.5 books) are actually 3rd party!
My friends and I stuck to 3.5 core for the same reason we don't use 3PP. And, again, I've said repeatedly that good 3PP exists. Whether Complete Book of Eldritch Might was the greatest book ever, we didn't have the time to dig through all the crap to find it.
137ben wrote:
So now that DSP has proven that they understand game balance better than Paizo or WotC, would you consider using their stuff?
I have looked through the DSP content on d20pfsrd. I really don't like it.
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Justin Rocket wrote: Zaister wrote: Justin Rocket wrote: ShadowcatX wrote: Any care to mention the fact that Paizo got its start as a 3rd party publisher? I didn't use Paizo content until after it had proven itself. And how did you know they had? And at what point was that? Around the time that Pathfinder came out. How do you feel about Goodman Games?
MrSin wrote: master_marshmallow wrote: Most 3PP materials lack the factor of balance, and exist solely to fill fan niches that ignore power creep in favor of fun. I'm not sure if that's totally correct so much as a fear. I've seen some overpowered material, but I've definitely seen a lot of underpowered or balanced material too. The game without 3pp isn't exactly balanced on its own either. I feel the same way. Pathfinder is a game fundamentally umbalanced, some 3pp would add balance some would destroy it. I see 3pp as the same way I see prouct from paizo, there are good stuff and there are bad stuff.
I Definitely would buy more 3pp if I have the money.
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