pauljathome |
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There is no concern about keeping trust and consistency between the player and the GM.GMs are given free range to do as they see fit including ignoring RAW or even the written scenario.
You should always warn your players to expect table variation for everything even if it seems black and white.
Nonsense.
The vast majority of GMs genuinely try and run things RAW. But reasonable people can and do disagree on what RAW means in some edge cases.
But almost all of my characters in almost all of my games under almost all of my GMs see very little table variation except in a handful of well known cases. I've got maybe two characters with enough ambiguity that I ask the GM how he handles something as I sit down.
And in maybe 1 game in 10 I'm surprised at how a GM rules something. And in many of those cases it was because I misunderstood a rule.
Jason Wu |
I'd say it is probably intended to be just an Adamantine crowbar, but since it's not written that way, run it as written and if it really bothers you click the FAQ button.
It's not a big deal.
I personally look at it as being less ridiculous than my totally non-magical shield champion being able to bounce her shield perfectly off five walls, two mooks, and still have enough juice to one-shot knock out their monstrous boss before returning flawlessly to her hand. :)
-j
BigNorseWolf |
I'd say it is probably intended to be just an Adamantine crowbar, but since it's not written that way, run it as written and if it really bothers you click the FAQ button.
It's not a big deal.
I personally look at it as being less ridiculous than my totally non-magical shield champion being able to bounce her shield perfectly off five walls, two mooks, and still have enough juice to one-shot knock out their monstrous boss before returning flawlessly to her hand. :)
-j
Getting that ability because the book says you get that ability is one thing.
Getting an ability because you make the book say that through rules lawyering obvious loopholes is something else. (Is torturing the English language an evil act in pfs?)
p-sto |
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In my opinion the question has been left hanging for a year and the effort it would have taken to clear up matter would have been minimal. In my mind it is an adamantine crowbar and would be treated as such when used as a weapon by one of my characters. However, if I was GMing in a situation where a player told me that they believed the weapon bypasses all DR I would allow it since it's a reasonable interpretation of the text and I have no interest in penalizing players on a matter that Paizo has refused to clarify.
p-sto |
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:I would agree with p-sto, and tell players 'this is how I interpret it, but I will make an allowance since you have invested in another interpretation'.This just encourages people to "interpret"
I'm not much of fan of browbeating new players with the most rigid interpretation possible out of fear of what power gamers searching for loop holes might do. It may not seem fair but I'm actually willing to apply the rule differently to different players based on my perception of how they play game.
TriOmegaZero |
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Closing the obvious loophole
I don't consider myself to have the authority to close that loophole. I tell them how I interpret it, and we go with it.
When one of the campaign staff issue the clarification, THEN I will cleave to one interpretation.
The Fox |
I gotta say that I run it the same as p-sto and TOZ. I have a character with a Trusty Buddy who only uses it as an adamantine crowbar (bypasses hardness and DR/adamantine). When I'm GMing for characters with a Trusty Buddy, I let them use the more permissive interpretation if they want. It hasn't destroyed the game.
BigNorseWolf |
BigNorseWolf wrote:Closing the obvious loopholeI don't consider myself to have the authority to close that loophole. I tell them how I interpret it, and we go with it.
When one of the campaign staff issue the clarification, THEN I will cleave to one interpretation.
You are not only cleaving to one interpretation but when you accuse anyone of holding to the other one of harassing players and playing "the one true way" you are insulting everyone that doesn't do the same.
BigNorseWolf |
As you did by claiming that we were 'encouraging people to interpret'.
BigNorseWolf wrote:Knock it off, both of you.Also, has this ever worked for you?
In person rather frequently. Online on occasion. If someones behavior is bad enough that I"M calling it out some people suddenly develop a sense of shame even if they didn't have one before.
BigNorseWolf |
As you did by claiming that we were 'encouraging people to interpret'.
Not at all.
If you let the players use any interpretation that they've come up with and based their character on you are going to get players that get things wrong and others that come up with things by deliberately twisting the rules as hard as they can. Because of how convoluted the rules get, the arguments tend to look an awful lot alike. Sometimes the DM has to say no.
There is no conceivable insult to you there.
rknop |
This is not a case of encouraging people to interpret. The shenanigans just aren't big enough.
There are two entirely reasonable interpretations here:
(1) "Trusty Buddy" is just a joke. Trusty Buddy costs exactly what an adamantine crowbar would have cost anyway, and it's always available, so literally the only thing you get from the boon is being able to say that you've got the Heidmarch's special Trusty Buddy, and other people at the table might laugh and give you knowing looks.
(2) This really is a boon; you get a somewhat better improvised weapon for the same cost as an adamantine crowbar; it's better because it overcomes all DR, not just DR/adamantine and hardness.
The second interpretation is what you get form a flat-literal-no-context reading of the boon. The first interpretation requires you to realize that usually when something bypasses all DR, they say all DR.
I'm personally inclined to believe it's the first reading; it's obvious to me this is just an adamantine crowbar with a name, and mostly there as a joke, and the wording that suggests more (which is oh so common in Pathfinder) is just a goof. It's very rare for things to bypass all DR. Before stumbling on this thread the other day, it never occurred to me that Trusty Buddy would bypass all DR. If it were supposed to, I believe they would have made that very clear.
However, the most important point is, a 3002gp crowbar that bypasses all DR but can never be anything more than that is really not game breaking. This isn't shenanigans at the level of Heightened "Mount" plus "Alter Summoned Monster" (which, by the way, I would not allow at my table even though right now, very temporarily, it's allowed by RAW). It's just not that big a deal.
So, if it's going to ruin a player's day to allow him to have his Trusty Buddy bypass all DR even though I am personally pretty sure it's not supposed to, I would allow that player to do that; I'd adjust my ruling. This, I believe, is the point that TOZ (in his non-troll avatar form) is trying to make -- having fun at the table is more important than making sure you've figured out exactly the right RAW reading. This is just not a big enough deal if you get it wrong to be worth losing any argument time over.
(That last sentences makes me realize I shouldn't have posted this. Oh well.)
Serisan |
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(1) "Trusty Buddy" is just a joke. Trusty Buddy costs exactly what an adamantine crowbar would have cost anyway, and it's always available, so literally the only thing you get from the boon is being able to say that you've got the Heidmarch's special Trusty Buddy, and other people at the table might laugh and give you knowing looks.
Unless there's been a ruling to the contrary that I haven't seen, the is no legal way to purchase an adamantine crowbar because it is not a weapon, armor, or ammunition. That would make TB exceptional in and of itself. Unlike other materials, such as mithral, there is no option to purchase an item based on weight and you can't call it a weapon just because there's an improvised weapon use listed.
Now back to your regularly scheduled nerd argument.
The ShadowShackleton |
For what it's worth my Bard has used his Trusty Buddy for years (since the scenario was released) and never once took the nutty interpretation that it could bypass all DR. That amounts to wishful thinking and a simple analysis of the cost should make it clear that is not how it was intended.
blackbloodtroll |
My first was reading was a skim, and figured it just bypassed DR/Adamantine.
Then, I looked back, because I thought it gave the wrong bonus to strength checks, and noticed it was supposed to work better than a crowbar, then also read the part about DR again, and noticed it was nonspecific, and just said it bypassed DR.
I then thought "Whoa, that is pretty cool."
After a while, I thought I should reread it, to make sure it was worded so.
It seemed to read both ways.
I figured it would never be FAQ'd, but maybe a Dev comment might be enough.
The writer of the scenario commented here, but he didn't add the Trusty Buddy.
Someone else did.
Maybe that someone will comment.
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
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There is no concern about keeping trust and consistency between the player and the GM.GMs are given free range to do as they see fit including ignoring RAW or even the written scenario.
You should always warn your players to expect table variation for everything even if it seems black and white.
That's ridiculous. Everything you've said here is incorrect.
GinoA |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
rknop wrote:(1) "Trusty Buddy" is just a joke. Trusty Buddy costs exactly what an adamantine crowbar would have cost anyway, and it's always available, so literally the only thing you get from the boon is being able to say that you've got the Heidmarch's special Trusty Buddy, and other people at the table might laugh and give you knowing looks.
Unless there's been a ruling to the contrary that I haven't seen, the is no legal way to purchase an adamantine crowbar because it is not a weapon, armor, or ammunition. That would make TB exceptional in and of itself. Unlike other materials, such as mithral, there is no option to purchase an item based on weight and you can't call it a weapon just because there's an improvised weapon use listed.
Now back to your regularly scheduled nerd argument.
This! My improvised-weapon PC carries a Trusty Buddy, Mithral Manacles and a Hex Nail. The Trusty Buddy is the only non-consumable way to get an adamantine, improvised weapon in PFS without resorting to things that don't really fit the flavor of a guy that never swings a real weapon. Level 9. Front-liner. Never swung a real weapon*. Arrows as daggers just violates the concept too much for me. Most of the time he just swings his 10-foot pole though. Most GMs are fine with granting him reach with it and Power Attack + 1 1/2 STR make for a nice hit.
* Although, he does own an Alchemical Silver Flail. Pathfinder Chronicler prestige class and a party member with no way to damage the bad guy. Fun times.
rknop |
Aha! Clearly I never tried to buy an adamantine tool, as I hadn't processed that you can only buy weapons and armor in special materials by RAW. (In my home games, I'd definitely let people commission an adamantine crowbar and pay 3002gp for it, but I do see that the special materials section of the CRB (and UE) does explicitly say "weapons and armor".)
So, yeah, that means that Trusty Buddy as only overcoming DR/adamantine isn't just a joke, but is actually a valuable thing to buy. If anything, that only reinforces that interpretation....
Dubgall Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Muncie |
rknop |
Pathfinder Society runs on Rules as Written unless its been FAQed I would have no leg to stand on to change the chronicle sheet. It bypasses all DR
The boon reads:
“Trusty Buddy” (adamantine crowbar; 3,002 gp, limit 1; +4 circumstance bonus on Strength checks to open doors and chests, bypasses DR when used as improvised weapon)
The words "all DR" are not in there.
I agree that this is one valid reading of the RAW.
The other valid reading is that the clear implication of the text there-- not just the intent, but the way it's written-- is that it bypasses DR/adamantine, because it just says "DR" rather than "all DR", and the crowbar has already been specifically called out as adamantine.
The English language can have ambiguity in meaning, and this is one of those cases. It's unfortunate that English can have ambiguity when you're writing rules. This is why computer code is not the same as English; computers must be told what to do in something more precise.
As regards this sentence here, thanks to the possibility of ambiguity in the English language and the fact that the wording of the boon doesn't overcome that ambiguity, some people (reasonably) feel pretty strongly that it should be read one way, while some (reasonably) feel pretty strongly that it should be read the other way. All of us do ourselves no favors by absolutely insisting that this one absolutely can't be reasonably read in a manner other than the manner in which we personally read it.
Dubgall Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Muncie |
I am not saying it';s cheesy as Heck but it says
“Trusty Buddy” (adamantine crowbar; 3,002 gp, limit 1; +4 circumstance bonus on Strength checks to open doors and chests, bypasses DR when used as improvised weapon)
it dosn't say bypasses Dr adamantine it just says it bypasses DR. At my table I will run it as liberally as I can.
if it is being used as as an improvised weapon it bypasses DR. That's how its read that's how I have to rule on it. and it a a freaking d4 on an item that 1 on 50 who have played the scenario has purchased that item. If a player is that creative I will give him a bone and let him have his named crowbar.
blackbloodtroll |
Actually, it's a 1d6 weapon.
CrowbarPrice 2 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
Category Adventuring Gear
Description
This versatile tool is designed to help pry open whatever the user desires. A crowbar grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Strength checks made to force open a door or chest. If it is used in combat, treat a crowbar as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a club of its size.
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
When used as an improvised weapon, "Trusty Buddy" acts like a short club, yes? It does 1d4 plus strength damage, plus whatever else you can think to ladle on.
Could someone offer a situation, from a scenario or a sanctioned module, where the DR would make a significant difference? We're in the General Discussion section of the boards, so please use a spoiler.
I'm asking because I really can't think of a situation where it would be worth the argument.
rknop |
it dosn't say bypasses Dr adamantine it just says it bypasses DR.
It doesn't say "bypasses all DR" or "bypasses any DR", it just says "bypasses DR".
It's an adamantine weapon. That makes it pretty clear what DR is bypassed.
I'm not even saying your interpretation is wrong. I'm saying that the other interpretation of RAW is reasonable.
rknop |
When used as an improvised weapon, "Trusty Buddy" acts like a short club, yes? It does 1d4 plus strength damage, plus whatever else you can think to ladle on.
Could someone offer a situation, from a scenario or a sanctioned module, where the DR would make a significant difference? We're in the General Discussion section of the boards, so please use a spoiler.
I'm asking because I really can't think of a situation where it would be worth the argument.
If you are somebody who usually doesn't do weapon damage, but find yourself in a situation where suddenly that's the best thing you can do, it'd be very handy to have something that can overcome all DR. Alignment DR is probably the hardest; it's easy enough to carry a couple of light weapons for piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning. Heck, even my wizard carries a cold iron and a silver dagger, just in case.
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
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rknop, I can see that, thank you. But is there a combat in PFS where DR/alignment comes into play, where somebody who doesn't normally do weapon damage could be an effective threat with "Trusty Buddy"? The creatures I'm thinking of that have DR/good are pretty fricking dangerous, and 1d6 + middling Strength damage isn't going to do much, even if it's getting through.
That's my question: is there a situation in PFS where it would really matter?
--
Thanks for the correction, BBT.
GinoA |
rknop, I can see that, thank you. But is there a combat in PFS where DR/alignment comes into play, where somebody who doesn't normally do weapon damage could be an effective threat with "Trusty Buddy"? The creatures I'm thinking of that have DR/good are pretty fricking dangerous, and 1d6 + middling Strength damage isn't going to do much, even if it's getting through.
That's my question: is there a situation in PFS where it would really matter?
You're thinking too small. Two-hand the Trusty Buddy on a power attacking, raging barbarian and swing at something with DR/cold iron and good.
Three grand and a to-hit penalty (that can be eliminated with a single feat) to avoid needing to buy anything special for DR. Sounds cheap to me.
grandpoobah |
rknop, I can see that, thank you. But is there a combat in PFS where DR/alignment comes into play, where somebody who doesn't normally do weapon damage could be an effective threat with "Trusty Buddy"? The creatures I'm thinking of that have DR/good are pretty fricking dangerous, and 1d6 + middling Strength damage isn't going to do much, even if it's getting through.
That's my question: is there a situation in PFS where it would really matter?
--
Thanks for the correction, BBT.
Answering Chris' Question:
If it were not "limit 1", the best situation would be a two-weapon fighter. It's hard for 2WP to beat DR with brute force.
Next best situation would be a one-weapon / shield type fighter, as this is still a single one-handed weapon.
For types of DR, DR/-- (like on elementals) does exist, but it is rare. DR A+B (Cold Iron AND good) is also rare, and generally limited to CR 10+ monsters (so Tier 8-9 and Tier 10-11). At that level, Players should be able to almost beat those anyway, or just "power through" with high damage output. DR X (one thing) is usually beatable with a 50gp magic item (oil of bless weapon, oil of magic weapon) or a cheap backup weapon (Cold Iron or Silver version, Morningstar is Bludgeoning and Piercing, Dagger is Slashing and Piercing).
At DR 10, "powering through" becomes difficult, but not insurmountable. In PFS play, the worst DR we should see is 10/---
DR 15 typically is limited to CR 15+ monster, which should be beyond the scope of normal PFS play.
At some point, it's a math problem:
I'm going to assume the PC eliminates the -4 penalty with a feat, maybe gets a +2 Trait bonus to hit from Surprise Strike (which is the same as having Masterwork + Weapon focus, which you cannot get with an Improvised Weapon). So the To-Hit is the same, but damage is not.
So Trusty Buddy is (one-handed or two-handed):
1d6+STR or 1d6+1.5xSTR
vs:
1d8+STR or 2d6+1.5xSTR with a Enhancement bonus to damage of +1 to +3, and a Feat / Class bonus to damage of +2 to +4.
So the Real weapon does 2-6 more damage 1-handed, and 4-10 more damage 2-handed.
Against DR 5/-- those are a wash. Against DR 10/--, the Trusty buddy is marginally better if used one-handed.
However, I would argue that a Level 8+ Pathfinder character would have lots of class powers that just make the weapon choice so much better. TB is still not a weapon. You cannot Divine Bond it (Paladin), You cannot cast spells on it (Greater Magic Weapon), You cannot Finesse it (Swashbuckler, Unchained Rogue), He cannot use Spellstrike/Spell Combat (Magus) with it.
My conclusion would be to agree with Chris - in PFS play, "ignore all DR" on a 1d6 one-handed Improvised Weapon is not remotely game-breaking.
pauljathome |
Hmm. Prehensile Hair Hex specifies that it can use objects but not weapons. A RAW case could be made that you could wield Trusty Buddy.
Not game breaking but you could make a quite nice Shaman around that. Basically a full caster sort with a quite nice secondary backup plan. As long as you were happy with table variation (I kinda doubt that everybody would allow this :-)).
GinoA |
Hmm. Prehensile Hair Hex specifies that it can use objects but not weapons. A RAW case could be made that you could wield Trusty Buddy.
Not game breaking but you could make a quite nice Shaman around that. Basically a full caster sort with a quite nice secondary backup plan. As long as you were happy with table variation (I kinda doubt that everybody would allow this :-)).
Swinging a rock is still a weapon. It's not the more common natural or manufactured weapon, but an improvised weapon is still a weapon. You cross that line as soon as you "wield" it.
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
You're thinking too small. Two-hand the Trusty Buddy on a power attacking, raging barbarian and swing at something with DR/cold iron and good.Three grand and a to-hit penalty (that can be eliminated with a single feat) to avoid needing to buy anything special for DR. Sounds cheap to me.
GinoA, I can see that being formidable, but (a) when have we seen, in PFS, a target with DR / cold iron and good, (b) how much DR was that, and (c) how do you think that an improvised weapon doing 1d6 would stack up against a masterwork weapon doing 1d12 or 2d6? Or a magical weapon with furious?
GinoA |
GinoA wrote:GinoA, I can see that being formidable, but (a) when have we seen, in PFS, a target with DR / cold iron and good, (b) how much DR was that, and (c) how do you think that an improvised weapon doing 1d6 would stack up against a masterwork weapon doing 1d12 or 2d6? Or a magical weapon with furious?
You're thinking too small. Two-hand the Trusty Buddy on a power attacking, raging barbarian and swing at something with DR/cold iron and good.Three grand and a to-hit penalty (that can be eliminated with a single feat) to avoid needing to buy anything special for DR. Sounds cheap to me.
Compared to the static +18 or more? The base dice would only improve it by 3-4HP. Bypassing a measly DR 5/... would outweigh the better dice.
Comparing to expensive magical items: That's kinda my point. Instead of investing 10-20K or more in a weapon, you're pumping it all into STR or to-hit bonus items since a single 3K weapon works on anything.
BTW, a couple points. 1: I GM'ed this scenario just so my improvised fighter could pick-up a Trusty Buddy 2: I interpret the chronicle as written the more liberal way and would rule that way for other players. 3: This PC carries a mess of other items and I only ever user the TB as "bypasses adamantine/hardness" because it fits the PC better and I don't have to worry about table-variation. 4: He uses a 10' pole more often than anything else.
Chris Lambertz Community & Digital Content Director |
TriOmegaZero |
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if it is being used as as an improvised weapon it bypasses DR.
But it does not say 'all DR'. So it can be interpreted either way.
I personally read that being a reminder that it does still bypass DR despite not being an actual weapon. So it still counts as adamantine.
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |