Create pit to get through doors?


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Matthew Downie wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
At a 5% success rate, it'd average out to about six tries, on average (a little less, but that's splitting hairs). It would take 20 attempts to (statistically) "guarantee" the thing working (though that is by no means actually assured - each indivual attempt has only a 5% success rate, no matter how many times you've rolled it), but that is not "on average" at all.
I just ran a simulation in C#. Average number of tries across 30,000 tests: 19.905

Huh! That's weird. I must have mathed wrong. Easy to do when you're not writing down your work.

Welp, still better than infinite!

;D


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Matthew Downie wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
At a 5% success rate, it'd average out to about six tries, on average (a little less, but that's splitting hairs). It would take 20 attempts to (statistically) "guarantee" the thing working (though that is by no means actually assured - each indivual attempt has only a 5% success rate, no matter how many times you've rolled it), but that is not "on average" at all.
I just ran a simulation in C#. Average number of tries across 30,000 tests: 19.905

There is a difference between frequency (average 1 in 20) and probability (probability of rolling at least one 20 with ten d20 rolls: 1-.95^10 = .401)

20 die rolls only has a .64 chance of rolling at least one 20.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Envall wrote:

Does this house have no foundation at all?

I mean my first thought was "Doors and walls don't levitate in the air."
TOZ wrote:
They also don't just rest on the floor, of course.

A door likely hangs from its hinges, which are supported by the strength of the frame or nearby wall.

A portcullis, on the other hand, that likely is supported by the floor when in its lax state. Put a hole underneath it and, depending on the system that pulls it up, it may well fall into the resulting hole.


Adjoint wrote:
Untentril wrote:
A line of effect is only relevant to the point of effect. I don't need to see an npc's brain to effect it with a mind-affecting spell, merely the generality of 'the character.'

Spells with a target, like another creature, indeed need only a line of effect to that creature. Spells with an area usually need a line of effect only to the point of origin, then they can burst, spread or emanate to the points the caster doesn't have a line of effect to. But spells with an effect like create pit, require a line of effect to any space in which the effect is to be created. I've cited this few posts up:

Core Rulebook, p.215 wrote:
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect.

You get that line of sight and line of effect are absolutely and explicitly not the same thing, right? Aside from many other objections to that citation, namely that there are dozens of such 'effect' spells which do not require any line of sight or line of effect or any other kind of line to the subject/object of the spell concerned.

Transmutations passwall for instance , does not require knowledge of how thick the passage is going to be before beginning.

Particularly, one could view the operation of these spells as follows.

Spellcaster targets origin point of 'effect,' spell manifests, extra-dimensional space or passage begins to form at the 'point of effect' and spreads from there, as such creating line of sight and/or effect during the substantiation of the spell.(I cannot see behind the surface of the wall on which I cast passwall, but as the spell begins to take effect the surface is no longer the surface, that is now a 'dent' in the wall, allowing my line of effect to penetrate further..and further...until the spell affects a larger area.

If the wall-passage rather appears entirely and totally, one is transumating things one has no line of effect to, an according to your (apparent) logic cannot in fact cast spells upon, not being able to see them.

Still I don't see that any of this is particularly relevant again.. an extra-dimensional 'split/portal/plane' does not 'care' in the least about what it 'covers' or passes through in the material world except insofar as the casting provides relative coordinates or said material has some non-mundane property explicitly affecting spellcasting or extradimensional effects.

Otherwise, create pit has an area, no?


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Untentril wrote:

[...]

Spellcaster targets origin point of 'effect,' spell manifests, extra-dimensional space or passage begins to form at the 'point of effect' and spreads from there, as such creating line of sight and/or effect during the substantiation of the spell.(I cannot see behind the surface of the wall on which I cast passwall, but as the spell begins to take effect the surface is no longer the surface, that is now a 'dent' in the wall, allowing my line of effect to penetrate further..and further...until the spell affects a larger area.

[...]

Otherwise, create pit has an area, no?

No, Create Pit has no area. Create pit has an effect

Let's compare an area spell and an effect spell: ye olde Fireball vs Create Pit.

Fireball has an area:

Area 20-ft.-radius spread

Quote:
Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.

The Fireball's area type is spread

Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection.

So, you don't target several squares, you only require LoE to the grid intersection you want the spell to land on, if the grid intersection (hitting one next to a wall, for example) is legit, the spell is legit

Create Pit, on the other side, has an effect:

Effect 10-ft.-by-10-ft. hole, 10 ft. deep/2 levels

Quote:

Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.

You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.

So, the create pit doesn't "spread", "enlarge" or "grow" from a square or a grid intersection, it's created as a 10x10ft space directly from scratch and you must designate the 10x10 location you'll want the pit to appear.

Since you must designate a 10x10ft location: you must have a clear line of effect to [...] any space in which you wish to create an effect. Squares behind the door (a solid barrier that blocks LoE) are not legit spaces.


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A 10x10 area is an area. I'm not sure why I bothered writing that, possibly referring to another post, but eh. Promise I'll try to be less pointless in the rest of the post.

Secondly: "Either by seeing it or defining it," people like to rule that spells require line of effect + that pair, but then you lose half your spellbook, alarm stops working as soon as you go into the lab, etc.

The LoE rule is fit for purpose, and that purpose is to stop you firing melf's acid arrow around corners, not be a "close that window! somebody is trying to Scry us!"

Thirdly: Teleport can pass through solid objects, why?
Teleport can ignore walls of force, why?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm

"Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through a wall of force in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier."

What are "similar effects" and what might they have in common with an extra dimensional pit.

So, LoE is blocked by Wall of Force, and LoE is required for...effect spells...

A solid barrier apparently blocks any 'effect' spell. except it doesn't, because passwall and teleport and a hundred divination & sonic spells totally ignore them or alter them or destroy them, heck I can burrow(ex) & tremorsense(ex) through something that blocks magic & dimensional effects? awesome.

But a Wall of Force does not block gaze effect spells, nor does a glass window. So it doesn't block all spells.

Neither of those, nor a mundane & opaque solid barrier stop dimension door or extra-dimensional effects.

Fourthly..What else was there?

The assertion that 'effects' spring into being fully formed?

We Read Create Pit again? If effects, when cast, appear fully formed and entire, why is it they don't disappear in the same way? It specifically and absolutely takes an entire round to 'not spread, shrink, diminish"

If effects from spells appear exact and entire and instantaneous in the real sense, not in the usual d&d "single round or atleast before next action sense" there would be no such thing as a reflex save vs instantaneous spell effects, you don't reflex save against something that has already happened.

How do you rule that somebody can reflex save vs a hole in the ground that they're already standing above (and thus have no floor from which to leverage themselves away (etc) because it appeared instant & full?

You don't.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Teleport is not an effect spell...there's no effect line.


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downerbeautiful wrote:

Unless someone can demonstrate a ruling on this, as a GM, I'd rule No on your query.

Since Create Pit makes a pit in another dimension, and since you cannot see the other side of the door, I'd rule that you made a 10'x10'xX (Where X is 10'+10'/2 caster levels, maximum 30') with a 10'x5' opening in front of the door.

Creative, I'll give you that, but unless someone else can either sway me or provide PFS precedent, if you were at my table, I would not allow it. As a player, I'd also question your methods, but nevertheless applaud your ingenuity.

So..... What if you cast Invisibilty on the Door? I dont think it changes the result, just a humorous interaction


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Omagi wrote:
downerbeautiful wrote:

Unless someone can demonstrate a ruling on this, as a GM, I'd rule No on your query.

Since Create Pit makes a pit in another dimension, and since you cannot see the other side of the door, I'd rule that you made a 10'x10'xX (Where X is 10'+10'/2 caster levels, maximum 30') with a 10'x5' opening in front of the door.

Creative, I'll give you that, but unless someone else can either sway me or provide PFS precedent, if you were at my table, I would not allow it. As a player, I'd also question your methods, but nevertheless applaud your ingenuity.

So..... What if you cast Invisibilty on the Door? I dont think it changes the result, just a humorous interaction

You need line of effect, not line of sight.

I.e. Obscuring Mist won't stop you from casting a pit spell at a defined location. An invisible door will.

The Exchange

Snowlilly wrote:
Omagi wrote:
downerbeautiful wrote:

Unless someone can demonstrate a ruling on this, as a GM, I'd rule No on your query.

Since Create Pit makes a pit in another dimension, and since you cannot see the other side of the door, I'd rule that you made a 10'x10'xX (Where X is 10'+10'/2 caster levels, maximum 30') with a 10'x5' opening in front of the door.

Creative, I'll give you that, but unless someone else can either sway me or provide PFS precedent, if you were at my table, I would not allow it. As a player, I'd also question your methods, but nevertheless applaud your ingenuity.

So..... What if you cast Invisibilty on the Door? I dont think it changes the result, just a humorous interaction

You need line of effect, not line of sight.

I.e. Obscuring Mist won't stop you from casting a pit spell at a defined location. An invisible door will.

how do you target create pit if you can't see where you want the "effect" (the pit) to happen?

I have once targeted it by touch - but how would you target it if you couldn't see where you want it?


Snowlilly wrote:
Omagi wrote:
downerbeautiful wrote:

Unless someone can demonstrate a ruling on this, as a GM, I'd rule No on your query.

Since Create Pit makes a pit in another dimension, and since you cannot see the other side of the door, I'd rule that you made a 10'x10'xX (Where X is 10'+10'/2 caster levels, maximum 30') with a 10'x5' opening in front of the door.

Creative, I'll give you that, but unless someone else can either sway me or provide PFS precedent, if you were at my table, I would not allow it. As a player, I'd also question your methods, but nevertheless applaud your ingenuity.

So..... What if you cast Invisibilty on the Door? I dont think it changes the result, just a humorous interaction

You need line of effect, not line of sight.

I.e. Obscuring Mist won't stop you from casting a pit spell at a defined location. An invisible door will.

OMG that seems so ingenious as a GM. I might incorporate this knowledge!

Scarab Sages

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paladinguy wrote:
Can you create pit right in front of a locked door, climb down the pit, and then climb up on the other side of the door in the other room?

Unclear if you can create a pit when you lack Line of sight to the other side of the door. Seems legal if you can see both sides of the door (like the door has a window).

Though the ground would have to be level on both sides of the door, so that creating a hole on one side would equal a hole on the other side (many buildings have a raised foundation, so placing it on the outside might result in having a "ceiling" for your pit on the other side).

Otherwise, it's a second level spell and the created pit is pretty deep, it would probably be a lot slower using the pit route, as opposed to picking the lock or smashing the door. But yeah, looks legal.


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Untentril wrote:
A 10x10 area is an area. I'm not sure why I bothered writing that, possibly referring to another post, but eh. Promise I'll try to be less pointless in the rest of the post.

I think you're misreading the rules. LoE is required for ALL spells, no matter their descriptor.

The fact that you consider that the Create Pit effect is a 10x10ft "area" doesn't matter , you can call it "area", "square", "pond", "hole"... call it "X". It doesn't matter how you call it, what matters is the spell's aiming descriptor.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

Thus, all three types of aiming require LoE. But, in most cases, you only require LoE for AIMING, you do not require LoE for most spells purposes themselves

Quote:

Teleport can pass through solid objects, why?

Teleport can ignore walls of force, why?

What are both Teleport's and Dimension Door aiming descriptors?

Teleport: Target you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures

Dimension Door: Target you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures

Neither of those spells say you require to have LoE towards the destination. For both spells to work you "only" are required to have LoE to their aiming descriptor, which is "Target: yourself and any willing targets". So, if you have LoE towards you and other willing targets, you can Kumbaya out anywhere (up to the spell limits).

Quote:

A solid barrier apparently blocks any 'effect' spell. except it doesn't, because passwall and teleport and a hundred divination & sonic spells totally ignore them or alter them or destroy them

But a Wall of Force does not block gaze effect spells, nor does a glass window. So it doesn't block all spells.

Passwall aiming descriptor: Effect 5-ft.-by-8-ft. opening, 10 ft. deep plus 5 ft. deep per three additional levels

You have LoE towards the initial 5x8ft "opening"? if yes, the spell works.

Divination spells work exactly as any other spell (check most div spells aiming descriptors), except ones that have a "weird" descriptor, like for example, scrying.

Scrying: Effect Magical sensor

A magical sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours. You have LoE to yourself? Yes.

Burning Gaze (gaze spell example) aiming descriptor: Target you

You have LoE to yourself? Yes.

Hope you get the point. You "only " must have LoE towards the point you'll aim the spell at, and the aiming descriptor says where are you aiming the spell at, everything else does NOT require LoE unles splicitly stated by the spell.

If a spell has an aiming descriptor of 10x10 space, you must have LoE towards the 10x10 space. If a teleport spell has an aiming descriptor of "you and touched creatures", then you do not need to have LoE towards the destination... you will use the TP rules to get past that Wall of Force.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

We'll said, Yorien, but what about the sloped sides? Are those not also part of the effect? If not, why not?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

And further do you need to have line of effect to every inch of the 10x10 space? If that is the case, how can you cast the spell under someone since that person's feet are on the ground blocking line of effect. Just like the door is on the ground. *If* the doorway is 10' wide such that the frame of the door does not interfere with the spell, I see no reason why you couldn't cast the spell. What if there is a gap under the door?


Ravingdork wrote:
We'll said, Yorien, but what about the sloped sides? Are those not also part of the effect? If not, why not?

No, the sloped sides are not part of the defined effect area.

Why: because the effect line of the spell states 10' x 10' square.

Agodeshalf wrote:
And further do you need to have line of effect to every inch of the 10x10 space? If that is the case, how can you cast the spell under someone since that person's feet are on the ground blocking line of effect. Just like the door is on the ground. *If* the doorway is 10' wide such that the frame of the door does not interfere with the spell, I see no reason why you couldn't cast the spell. What if there is a gap under the door?

Characters do not block line of effect.

Doors do block line of effect.

Line of Effect wrote:
A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Is the "effect" not the entirety of the spell's manifestations?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Effect wrote:
Other: A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Is the "effect" not the entirety of the spell's manifestations?

The same word can have many different meanings.

For example:

"Effect" (in bold), located in the spell description, it's the spell's aiming descriptor type. An Effect, per ruling is something that is created or appears from nothingness. If you "create" a pit, you point at the 10x10 "hole" (or "entrance") of the pit, and the pit "appears" at that location (you don't require LoE to the entire depth of the pit since it's the spell's "effect" or "manifestation" itself what creates that depth). Same happens with Passwall (it essentially works the same way as Create Pit, but you can also aim it "vertically"), and with Spells like Summon Monster (aiming is: Effect: One (or more) summoned creature(s). You'll need LoE - and enough space - to fit those creatures based on their size)

"Effect" in any other location may mean a completely different thing. For example the Fireball has an aiming of Area 20-ft.-radius spread. You don't actually target the 20-ft radius spread, your aiming (for area spells) is a grid intersection, so you point at a grid intersection you have Line of Effect to, and then the Fireball explodes for a 20ft spread Area of "Effect" (non bold, not located on the spell description) from that grid intersection.

So, Effect (as a spell aiming descriptor) ≠ "Effect" (as everything else you want to use the word for)

As Untenril said before, "A 10x10 area is an area". And he is totally right (actually, it's not just a 2D "area"; once the pit is generated it becomes a 3D "area" since the pit also has depth), but that "area" he mentioned is not the spell's aiming descriptor. Same word, different meaning.

Liberty's Edge

This subject was also talked a out in this thread, called Create Pit to Crawl Under Door or Wall. It also mentions portcullis and damaging walls with the sloped sides of the pit.


Ravingdork wrote:
Yeah, I'm generally not one to punish clever thinking either. That just leads to boring games.

True, but there's a huge difference between "clever thinking" and using "cheats"/"hacks" you read on the internet.


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Dworkin, Dwarf Alchemist wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Yeah, I'm generally not one to punish clever thinking either. That just leads to boring games.
True, but there's a huge difference between "clever thinking" and using "cheats"/"hacks" you read on the internet.

yes. I come up with clever thinking. Other people come up with cheats.

Holds for various values of "I" and "others"

:)


If the door is like many doors I've seen, you could just get on the floor and look under the crack. Line of effect thus achieved, it would work.


I think good GMing advice is: don't get to attached to your doors.


james014Aura wrote:
If the door is like many doors I've seen, you could just get on the floor and look under the crack. Line of effect thus achieved, it would work.

You require a 1sq feet gap on a solid barrier for LoE to be achieved. That would have to be a really big crack under the door.

Also... you'd probably fall into your own pit if cast that way.


james014Aura wrote:
If the door is like many doors I've seen, you could just get on the floor and look under the crack. Line of effect thus achieved, it would work.

So you would be ok with NPCs raining death on the party by casting under a locked door?

Simpler to stick with the assertion that a door constitutes a solid barrier and therefore blocks line of effect.


Yorien wrote:
james014Aura wrote:
If the door is like many doors I've seen, you could just get on the floor and look under the crack. Line of effect thus achieved, it would work.

You require a 1sq feet gap on a solid barrier for LoE to be achieved. That would have to be a really big crack under the door.

Also... you'd probably fall into your own pit if cast that way.

That's one square foot IN the object to acheive LoE. But even if you don't count that... what about the arrow slits rule? Why shouldn't that rule apply to spells, too? This spell targets the ground, all of which can be seen - and line of sight is generally even more restrictive than LoH. (Also, I posit that the 1 square foot gap is meant for things like Snowball, where needing a large gap to aim makes sense)


james014Aura wrote:
Yorien wrote:
james014Aura wrote:
If the door is like many doors I've seen, you could just get on the floor and look under the crack. Line of effect thus achieved, it would work.

You require a 1sq feet gap on a solid barrier for LoE to be achieved. That would have to be a really big crack under the door.

Also... you'd probably fall into your own pit if cast that way.

That's one square foot IN the object to acheive LoE. But even if you don't count that... what about the arrow slits rule? Why shouldn't that rule apply to spells, too? This spell targets the ground, all of which can be seen - and line of sight is generally even more restrictive than LoH. (Also, I posit that the 1 square foot gap is meant for things like Snowball, where needing a large gap to aim makes sense)

The 1 sq. feet of "open space" on a barrier is required for LoE to be achieved (LoE is required for casting), not for an unleashed spell to "squeeze" through a narrow hole.

As said, if Create Pit targets the ground (10x10 ft), you must have LoE to ALL the space you wan to cast the spell in (four 5ft. squares). If there's a big enough gap under the door, then maybe you could achieve LoE by crawling next to the door and see the other side under the crack, but you'll have to cast the spell where you're crawling, so you'll most likely fall in our own pit.

About narrow space targeting, spells like fireball and the like have a specific rule for "squeezing" through narrow passages: not only you require LoE towards their aiming descriptor (the grid intersection), but you also must "hit" the passage with an additional ranged touch or you may accidentally hit the barrier and blow yourself up.

Quote:
... If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must "hit" the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

Scarab Sages

Kinda wish create pit would create actual pits, rather than this goofy temporary dimensional hole. Would be a lot easier to manage in this sort of situation. Plus there really aren't very many good digging spells...


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Kinda wish create pit would create actual pits, rather than this goofy temporary dimensional hole. Would be a lot easier to manage in this sort of situation. Plus there really aren't very many good digging spells...

Disintegrate is very good at digging.


My take:

The door blocks line of effect: wouldn't work, area can't extend past the door as you don't have line of effect to the hidden areas.

It's clever and fun, but skirts rules and invalidates other abilities (disable device) or spells of the same level (knock), which it completely outperforms if you allowed it, when it clearly is not intended to do so.

I'd also rule that keyholes do not permit fireballs to be cast through, and that unless I state otherwise, the gap between doors and floors is not wide enough to permit spells, creatures, or perhaps even gases/liquids, depending on the situation.

The big thing is: if you did this in a party with a rogue, the rogue would be pretty justified in feeling upset about his role being usurped.

Hell, if a conjurer did this to upstage a transmuter, they could cry foul too.

Falls under the "might allow once, because genius: banned afterward" for me: it doesn't fit with the rules, and I believe it to be clearly against the intent of the spell.


Obbu wrote:

My take:

...
I'd also rule that keyholes do not permit fireballs to be cast through, and that unless I state otherwise, the gap between doors and floors is not wide enough to permit spells, creatures, or perhaps even gases/liquids, depending on the situation.

Line of Effect rules:

Quote:

[...]

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.

For "narrow passages", they'll have to be at least the average size of 1 square feet, which is the minimum required to achieve LoE on any solid barrier. For smaller openings you won't have LoE towards a point of origin on the other side so you won't be able to target it. So, a keyhole doesn't grant LoE (unless it's a pretty damn big keyhole).

"Fireball targeting roll" is meant for when you try to squeeze a spell through a small window or something like that, big enough to achieve LoE towards the other side, but small enough to require some precision.

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