xp again


Rules Questions


Hi all ive been looking through old threads and it looks like players get xp for just setting of traps even if they didn't find said trap is that right ?
So players get rewarded for blundering in to a trap and being lucky enough to live


Quote:
Keep a list of the CRs of all the monsters, traps, obstacles, and roleplaying encounters the PCs overcome. At the end of each session, award XP to each PC that participated. Each monster, trap, and obstacle awards a set amount of XP, as determined by its CR, regardless of the level of the party in relation to the challenge, although you should never bother awarding XP for challenges that have a CR of 10 or more lower than the APL.

Never does it say you get XP "merely" for surviving a trap, but you do get XP for surviving and overcoming monsters. Why should traps be any different?

If a barbarian uses his massive HP to soak a trap, how is that less worthwhile than a rogue who bypasses the trap with disable device?

In truth, of course, the trap system isn't very well thought out.


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Well, XP is generally for PCs meeting their goals. In the vast majority of fights, this means killing a monster, because the staging of encounters tends to be simple ("action-oriented"). Brighter GMs and adventure designers will give you the XP for handling a situation diplomatically or forcing the enemy to surrender, but that's the extent of common goals. Really, XP could be awarded for anything else that might be a PC goal.

You could run an encounter with an incursion of demon slavers and award XP for every commoner that survives the attack.

You could have the PCs hunted down by a slow but very powerful, resilient, and persistent enemy and award them XP when they finally elude it (though PCs can be pretty hard-headed and might force a TPK by assuming they're supposed to fight it; still, it's an option).

You could have a group of rebels scatter when they're discovered by the PCs, and award XP for every rebel that's hit by a paintbomb so they can be tracked through the city.

You could have a fight with a canny spy and award XP based on how much information they get from him with detect thoughts.

For traps? Alright, traps are pretty simple. The PCs' goals are probably limited to 'survive'. But if they do survive, well -- they did it. Congratulations! Sometimes they survive the dumb way, by triggering the trap, failing the saving throw and taking full damage. But that's no different than what you might get in a fight -- you might be ambushed by a creature, struck by a critical hit, and nearly torn apart by an CR=APL encounter. You've still fulfilled your goal and had an experience to learn from.


If a character set of a trap on purpose and takes the damage then i would award xp for the encounter as they have actively done something about it but not for just being clumsy


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Simple, they learned what NOT to do, which can be just as important as learning what to do.

Didn't Edison say something about how he learned 100 ways not to make a lightbulb before he ever learned how to make one?

Experience is experience, good or bad, we learn from it.


Yes but xp in PF is just a way to measure how powerful the players are and what will challenge them it an abstract system so character advance to the next level you can't relate itddirectly to experiences in the real world

Lantern Lodge

I become a more powerful programmer with experience...

I gain the power attack feat with experience trying to bash people's heads in...

I gain epics skillz as I gain experience...

I can hit people better because of the experience I have of fighting people.

The only thing that isn't tied to the real world with leveling up and experience is HP. Stats, skill ranks, feats, spells, class abilities all make sense with research, practice and experience.

If all players did to gain experience was fight monsters, how do they get better at diplomacy? Or disable device? Thats part of the reason getting past ANY encounter, including traps. Not to mention it's a magical world...


You gain experience by interaction if you just step on a hidden switch and get peppered with arrows then you learn nothing
If you spot the switch and choose to set it of then you have learned something and gain experience


You learn that there are hidden switches which lead to arrows, and that you can survive such obstacles.

With more XP your reflex save and AC should increase - representing some knowledge that when putting your foot down makes a *click* it's time to duck.

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."
- Will Rogers

Besides: you could just as well say, that when you spot the trap and disable it, you haven't learnt anything by it - you've simply applied the knowledge/skills you already possess.


tony gent wrote:

You gain experience by interaction if you just step on a hidden switch and get peppered with arrows then you learn nothing

If you spot the switch and choose to set it of then you have learned something and gain experience

By your own definition, they learned something from stepping on a hidden switch and getting peppered with arrows.

After all, the character "interacted" with the switch. Then the arrows "interacted" with the character.

That's two separate interactions.

Point is, living beings with a functional brain learn from failure at least as much as they learn from success. If they're level 1, this might be their first "ah-ha" moment that tells them the stories of functional mechanical traps in mildew-ridden ancient dungeons are true. In spite of the logic that mechanisms like that should have failed eons ago due to warping and rot.


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The point im trying to make is why should the players get xp for doing nothing more than surviving
If a party was ambushed by a group of monster the attack does little damage but the monsters retreat before the party can react would you give them the xp for "dealing" with them ?


tony gent wrote:

The point im trying to make is why should the players get xp for doing nothing more than surviving

If a party was ambushed by a group of monster the attack does little damage but the monsters retreat before the party can react would you give them the xp for "dealing" with them ?

Yes, because they 'overcame' the encounter. If I'm giving out the XP, then I'm the one deciding that the monsters retreat - so why would I cheat my players from earning XP.

EDIT: the PCs could follow their attackers. Retreat isn't always a guaranteed escape.


tony gent wrote:

The point im trying to make is why should the players get xp for doing nothing more than surviving

If a party was ambushed by a group of monster the attack does little damage but the monsters retreat before the party can react would you give them the xp for "dealing" with them ?

Perhaps it would help to think of it in more abstract terms rather than (perhaps) reifying the concept of an experience point?

Someone who has been around a long time and survived lots of dangerous things is probably quite good.

There are lots of silly things in the game's experience system - the bard persuades the guards to let the party through and consequently, the wizard learns fireball.


Surviving the BBEG after a trap has dealt 6 str damage to you is more of a challenge than doing it when in top shape.

If you see it that way, triggering a trap does not give you exp because you "beat" the trap but because future challenges will be more challenging.


This again? Didn't we cover this two weeks ago?


I view that XP has two purposes. The first is to reward the players for good teamwork, adventuring, and roleplaying. The second is to keep the characters leveling up at good enough rate to keep the adventures fresh.

Blundering into a trap is poor adventuring, but if the party displays good roleplaying in reacting to the trap, such as changing their tactics, or good teamwork in recovering from the trap, they have done something worth rewarding.

And if the trap injured them, the next encounter might have fewer monsters in order to keep from overwhelming them, and the trap's XP makes up for the missing monster's XP to keep them leveling up on schedule.


I never give xp for a trap that my players don't find. I give them xp for the trap if they find it and avoid it either by disabling it. Also they get xp for triggering it as they learn from the experince. hey maybe I should search more often, or learn that this is a type of trap what ever you want to explain it.

I also give XP for avoiding combat if possiable. I don't make some encounters unavoidable battle, while others I make them seem agressive and it is enterly possiable to avoid it.

Few examples I had a Gorgon in a open field that would run up to pcs up to 100ft then turn around. I would have gave the the xp if they did nothing but they attacked frist.

Another example I had a 3 or 4 hill giants blocking mount pass, who do to their lack of soical skills using in a very un demanded food from pcs in a very threaning manner. The pcs gave the Giants some food and they let them pass and also gave them information about a pair of bulette in the area. thus allowing the pc to avoid suprise from bulette coming from under them.

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