Okay I need some suggestions in what to do when someone rolls a 20 and then a 1 to confirm. Something fun and something with consequence but jot game breaking.
I used to go with that set of rolling as a critical miss and have something zany happen but rolling with a grp of dms and need some advice or suggestions in how to go with the rolling 20 and then a 1.
Preciate in advance the suggestions.
I would rule (myself) that the crit didn't confirm but it is still a standard hit.
However, I'm the DM who likes to have people throw their weapons regularly on a rolled 1 (reflex save DC 15 of course). We have one player who uses a Force enhanced bow (MIC) and the projectiles blew up in their face instead.
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I suggest following the rules. A twenty is an automatic hit and a potential critical, but the following one automatically fails to confirm.
Critical misses and similar "fun" things waste time at the gaming table, kill characters, and embarrass players.
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Something fun? Something different would be that it confirms the critical, but the weapon gets stuck in the critters body and requires a standard action (provoking attacks of opportunity) to pull it out.
or
The critical is confirmed, but the character loses grip of the weapon (breaking any existing weapon cords) and it flies in a random direction XX feet from the character.
Are you thinking of ideas along this line of thinking?
I agree with the mind flayer.
It wasn't an attack roll, it was a confirmation roll. Rolling a 1 does nothing special. You simply failed to confirm the critical hit.
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Something fun and something with consequence but not game breaking.
I used to go with that set of rolling as a critical miss and have something zany happen but rolling with a grp of dms
The original poster is not asking for the standard rules of rolling 1 one makes the critical attempt fail. S/he's asking for ways to make the game more interesting and fun for the players.
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The original poster is not asking for the standard rules of rolling 1 one makes the critical attempt fail. S/he's asking for ways to make the game more interesting and fun for the players.Something fun and something with consequence but not game breaking.
I used to go with that set of rolling as a critical miss and have something zany happen but rolling with a grp of dms
Which is why we're telling him NOT to do critical fumbles.
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The original poster is not asking for the standard rules of rolling 1 one makes the critical attempt fail. S/he's asking for ways to make the game more interesting and fun for the players.Something fun and something with consequence but not game breaking.
I used to go with that set of rolling as a critical miss and have something zany happen but rolling with a grp of dms
Then buy them a donut.
Something fun? Something different would be that it confirms the critical, but the weapon gets stuck in the critters body and requires a standard action (provoking attacks of opportunity) to pull it out.
This would have been my suggestion.
If it were a bow, I would give an equivalent penalty (confirmed critic, but you need to spend a standard action to re-string). For a bludgeoning weapon, I'd confirm the crit, but say it got wet with blood or sweat or whatever, causing the character to drop it.
Then buy them a donut.
Mmmmmm. Donuts.
Seriously folks. There is nothing wrong with a homebrew rule if it enhances everyone's fun. Besides, this will only happen once every 400 attacks, on average. What's the harm?
Or, you could use the optional donut rule. Your call.
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I think the idea of it confirming the critical but including a complication is the best idea so far, if you really want to introduce some negative effect. It wouldn't have to be the weapon getting stuck either, but maybe get a Paizo fumble deck and examine it for ideas.
Okay I need some suggestions in what to do when someone rolls a 20 and then a 1 to confirm. Something fun and something with consequence but jot game breaking.
I used to go with that set of rolling as a critical miss and have something zany happen but rolling with a grp of dms and need some advice or suggestions in how to go with the rolling 20 and then a 1.
Preciate in advance the suggestions.
I would suggest you not screw your players by taking away their Natural 20 to hit and just leave it as a standard hit.
Instead I would suggest that should they roll a natural 1 on the attack (if you REALLY want to pull fumbles into your game) that they have to 'confirm' the fumble by rolling a DC 22 BAB check. If they hit 22 or more adding nothing but their BAB it is a simple miss as normal. If they do not they have 'fumbled'.
We do this in our game and it come up enough to be entertaining but not enough to be annoying.
As an example of fumbles:
Lose your grip and bobble your weapon around. Your attack misses and your turn ends. If your were full attacking your turn ends but any hits before the fumble still count.
Lose grip of and toss your weapon. It lands 0-2 squares away in a random direction. Picking it up in combat is a move action that provokes.
Accidently hit a friend. Roll weapon damage and apply normally.
Attack wrong and wrench a muscle. Make a fort save VS DC 15. Make it and you take a -2 to hit for a round. Fail and take 1d3 Strength damage.
Trip in combat. Make a DC 15 Reflex save. Make it and take a -1 AC for a round. Fail and lose your dex to AC for 1d3 rounds. If your dex does not give you an AC bonus you are still considered to have lost your dex bonus for 1d3 rounds and you take a -1 AC for the same period.
Get distracted by something that actually is not there. Make a DC 15 Will save. Make it and folks get a +1 damage on you for one round. Fail and folks get a +2 damage on you for 1d3 rounds.
Our GM rolls % for which ones happen with throwns and bobbles weapons being by far the most common. These are not all the ones that she has hit us with but they are the more common ones.
Some great ideas so far, thx. Really like the idea of weapons getting stuck or let loose outta the hand.
My group is really kore into roleplaying and pretty loose. They know their character can die at any moment due to the luck of the dice and they are perfectly fine with that. They also like to make up zany stuff on their own when they roll a natural one on anything. So with very OP characters, combat is a breeze for them.
Their dms so they are already some sick individuals anyways so when 1s get rolled, there's already heads hanged in shame and good natural rubbing. With 20s there's good natured cheers and with 1s good natured jeering. So wanted to add to it. This is a group who could spend hours in a make believe town on the way to a mission just roleplaying their characters in zany ways but still focused on the story, so wasting time aint no consequence lol.
Again thinks for the suggestions and welcomed to more if yal know of any :-)
Edit-Gilfalas, I was planning on keeping their hit and not rob them of their natural 20. Those are some good ideas ur dm has and Im reading them and will throw some of those ideas in the mix. Id probelmly let the players roll the percentage dice and have 10 options with one at a 100 meaning they pulled it outta their hindends and confirmed their crit or even take it a step above and give them 1 crit % above their normal crit.
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Then buy them a donut.Mmmmmm. Donuts.
Seriously folks. There is nothing wrong with a homebrew rule if it enhances everyone's fun. Besides, this will only happen once every 400 attacks, on average. What's the harm?
Or, you could use the optional donut rule. Your call.
Because it makes really experienced high level Conan-type looks like one of the Three stooges?
It also nerfs martials, esp at high level- which is EXACTLY where they need the opposite of a nerf.
But donuts are good.
Because it makes really experienced high level Conan-type looks like one of the Three stooges?
It also nerfs martials, esp at high level- which is EXACTLY where they need the opposite of a nerf.
But donuts are good.
Which is exactly why our group has it as a BAB check with a DC of 22. The more combat trained you are (represented by pure BAB) the less likely to fumble your are.
A true martial class will need to roll two natural 1's in a row to fumble at level 20, about a 1 in 400 chance. In the 5 years we have been using the system we have seen that happen exactly once ever (but it was to the level 21 Fighter so it was pretty damn funny).
Critical misses and similar "fun" things waste time at the gaming table, kill characters, and embarrass players.
Couldn't you say the same thing about critical hits? They just waste time at the table and have the potential to one-shot characters when monsters get them.
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Couldn't you say the same thing about critical hits? They just waste time at the table and have the potential to one-shot characters when monsters get them.
Critical misses and similar "fun" things waste time at the gaming table, kill characters, and embarrass players.
There's a very big difference between
"The monster got in a really good shot on me"
and
"I tripped over my own feet and chopped my head off with my own axe."
Yal do know im talking about rolling a 1 AFTER a natural 20? And that they would still hit, just a little something to add for fun and flavor without breaking the game.
So far ive seen quite a few 20ss and quite a few 1s rolled but have actually only seen once where someone rolled a 1 on confirm to crit.
Now rolling natural 1s and 20s by themselves, I already got covered. Its about what to do when someone rolls a 1 AFTER they rolled a 20 and they still get their normal hit, but what to add as flavor and fun in a laid back and relaxed enviroment that the group craves the abnorm and surprises in all venures.
I dont see someone hitting a target and getting their weapon stuck in the target as a baffoon move. Hell apparently happened quite often in real battles that they designed weapons with different slopes and hooks and etc etc to prevent or capitalize on it.
Thats the type of suggestions im looking for.
Just regularly hitting on a 1 to confirm seems to boring for my group, they seem to be expecting something different to happen. I want them to still hit but I want something of flavor to add to it. Maybe I shouldnt have said zany lol.
Any fumbles should be on the base attack roll not the conformation roll. The player has already hit and that should not be taken away. If you want to add something bad for rolling a 1 on a conformation roll, then in all fairness, you need to give something good for rolling a natural 20. The original hit should still happen no matter what.
You could go that if you roll a 1 on the conformation then the player still damages the opponent as a normal hit, but also the character suffers from some disadvantage. The suggestion of their weapon getting stuck or something similar seems appropriate. If they roll another natural 20 then could double the damage for the critical.
Another way would be to allow open ended rolls. Under this system anytime you roll a natural 1, or 20 you roll again. If you fail on a natural 1 then something bad happens, if you succeeded something good happens. If the conformations roll is either a natural 1, or a natural 20 then repeat. All results are cumulative which can lead to some very dramatic situations, like killing the dragon with a single blow that also shatters your weapon damaging you in the process.
Because it makes really experienced high level Conan-type looks like one of the Three stooges?
It also nerfs martials, esp at high level- which is EXACTLY where they need the opposite of a nerf.
But donuts are good.
Which is exactly why our group has it as a BAB check with a DC of 22. The more combat trained you are (represented by pure BAB) the less likely to fumble your are.
A true martial class will need to roll two natural 1's in a row to fumble at level 20, about a 1 in 400 chance. In the 5 years we have been using the system we have seen that happen exactly once ever (but it was to the level 21 Fighter so it was pretty damn funny).
Hmm, so a Martial has up to 6 swings, each with a chance to fumble. A wizard fumbles his fireball or magic missile exactly how often?
Minimum damage.
Just say something about the PC cracking their head against the enemy for no damage and move on.
Here's a suggestion, if you really want to have something unusual happen when you roll a 20 then a 1.
The attack does perfectly average damage. No damage roll. It does 3.5 per d6 + mods (or 4.5 per d8 plus mods). The one isn't a bad thing after a 20, it's just not a good thing. So average damage isn't a bad thing, it's just not good either. :)
Don't waste time on critical fumbles and move on. If you feel the need to do something limit it to flavor of him getting over confident because of the high quality of the swing and forgetting to twist the blade.
Hmm, so a Martial has up to 6 swings, each with a chance to fumble. A wizard fumbles his fireball or magic missile exactly how often?
Exactly as often as any other house rule?
The OP did not ask for a debate on his concept. He has already clarified it is something his group enjoys. He asked for idea's on how to implement it. Why is that a problem?
Before 3.0 Critical Hits were house/optional rules as well.
Redneckdevil; ignore the haters and enjoy some unpredictability to your game.
Some people might call it badwrongfun, but just focus on the last syllable of that description! :-)
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The original poster is not asking for the standard rules of rolling 1 one makes the critical attempt fail. S/he's asking for ways to make the game more interesting and fun for the players.Something fun and something with consequence but not game breaking.
I used to go with that set of rolling as a critical miss and have something zany happen but rolling with a grp of dms
and rolling a 20 to hit and then being double punished by not confirming and getting a critical miss is somehow interesting and fun for the players? I would be pissed at that ruling and I know a lot of people who would agree. It's bad enough to get the possible crit and not reconfirm....
Sigh. One can discourage an idea without some horrible accusation being implied. We aren't assuming he is having badwrongfun.
We are assuming he has a normal life. Some combination of school, job, kids, relationship, extended family, normal errands/house work, and other random issues that limits his game time. Also, that many PCs might not enjoy thinking, "Solid, 20, sure thing, wait I got a 1 on my confirmation so what happened? Weak." Spending limited game time on something that might very well lower the enjoyment at your table seems a bad investment of time. Now if he has no other ways to improve his game, knows his players don't mind mild emotional roller coasters, and has way fewer time constraints then every other gamer I'm aware of you are right; he should totally rock on.
While personally I would be boring and just determine it is a normal hit per the rules, if I wanted something easy to do that acknowledges the odd die roll sequence, I'd have the player draw both a card from the critical hit and the critical fumble deck and resolve both. If the crit fumble seriously injures the player or his allies I would have him draw another, and likewise allow a re-draw if the two don't combine well.
So for example, I pretended someone attacked with a sword. I just drew (well, pressed a button on my phone) from the Crit Hit deck:
Missing Ear (normal damage and 1 Cha drain to the target, and the target is at a -4 penalty)
And from Crit Fumble:
This Sword Is Heavy (attacker is fatigued)
So I would say what happened was the attacker made a beautiful swing, cleanly sliced off the target's ear, and then as he completed the arc of the swing, he suddenly threw out his shoulder (a good narrative explanation for the -2 to Str and Dex that the fatigued condition is).
This would be creative, and it would vary the result each time (although it should rarely happen). And the apps are cheap if you've got an iPhone or Android device.
I would NOT enforce a critical fumble only due to a 1 on the confirm roll. If you're forcing a confirmed fumble in this case, it's only fair to confirm the crit as well.
and rolling a 20 to hit and then being double punished by not confirming and getting a critical miss is somehow interesting and fun for the players? I would be pissed at that ruling and I know a lot of people who would agree. It's bad enough to get the possible crit and not reconfirm....
The OP has already said his players like odd things on a one. At this point, it sounds like you're just applying the badwrongfun label.
I get that some games enjoy critical fumbles, but if an GM applied a critical fumble on my character on a crit confirm roll I would be really annoyed. Use it on normal skill, save, attack rolls if you must, but not on a roll that only happens if a character does well.
Part of the problem is that it's possible to roll a 1 after a 20, but not a 20 after a 1.
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and rolling a 20 to hit and then being double punished by not confirming and getting a critical miss is somehow interesting and fun for the players? I would be pissed at that ruling and I know a lot of people who would agree. It's bad enough to get the possible crit and not reconfirm....The OP has already said his players like odd things on a one. At this point, it sounds like you're just applying the badwrongfun label.
FH never called it badwrong fun, all he said is that he'd be pissed with such rule, and that may be the case for the OP's players as well.
He makes a good point. Why should the character be punished for rolling a nat 20? He would be better off rolling a 19. Critical hits are supposed to be moments when your character is awesome, not a chance to cut your own ehad.
And Stabbald makes another good point:
I get that some games enjoy critical fumbles, but if an GM applied a critical fumble on my character on a crit confirm roll I would be really annoyed. Use it on normal skill, save, attack rolls if you must, but not on a roll that only happens if a character does well.
Part of the problem is that it's possible to roll a 1 after a 20, but not a 20 after a 1.
So the players have all the risk of critical fumble rules, but get no benefit from it. In fact, they may even fumble after rolling a nat 20!
I used to use fumble rules in my games, then I noticed how harsh they can be... Especially at high levels. ne of my players has a TWF Paladin He makes 4~5 attacks per round. Had I continued to use fumble rules, he'd have decapitated himself and his friends by now...
It's really unfair to martial classes too... How often do fumble rules matter for Wizards? It's not like they are rolling 4~5 d20 every round...
I have both the Critical Hit deck and the Critical Fumble one... I don't force the rules on anyone, but each player is given a choice: They can choose to use the decks or not, and their choice only affects their own character: When you crit on a natural 20, you can pick a card from the Crit Hit deck (in addition to the extra daamge), but if you use this rule, when you roll a nat 1, you must also pick a card from the Crit Fumble deck.
This way, whoever wants to use the rules can use it.. The ones who would rather not use them, do not use them. Fun for everyone.
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I agree with points made by Stabbald and Lemmy.
1. Only martials have to endure the fun of critical fumbles. Mages are never making 5-6 targeting rolls per round.
2. The higher in levels a martial gets, the more d20's he rolls per round. The more d20's he rolls per round, the more likely he is to fumble.
3. This problem is compounded by: spellcasters are starting to peak-- getting better area of effect spells etc-- at the same moment that martials are starting to fumble more and more often.
This does generate lots of laughs and good times...for the spellcasters.
4. I like Stabby's point that if you do this, you should give them a chance to roll a d20 after every 1. Give a fumble an equal chance to be awesome, as you give a critical hit to be humiliating.
On another thread I proposed that spellcasters be given the same percentage chance to critically fumble as martials.
My 8th level Ninja swings her Wakizashi's an average of 6 times per round. That's roughly a 30% chance of rolling a 1 per round. (And for a Rogue type the penalty is compounded by losing sneak attacks benefits for the rest of the current combat. Its not simply the blade missing... its all the fun and excitement of revealing yourself, losing surprise, chasing a weapon, provoking attacks of opportunity, and spending another 2 rounds trying to get back into that primo flanking position. Oh the laughs.)And there's a 30% chance of this happening every round.
I proposed that the spellcasters be given a 30% chance of spell failure with every round. Either the spells blow up in their face, or have the opposite of the intended affect. Suddenly the spellcasters' chortling died off.
I realize that you are talking about a different statistical probability (20 then 1). But I hope you'll consider the point that critical fumbles are already unfairly weighted against martial characters. And it gets worse and worse as the spellcasters are getting better.
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and rolling a 20 to hit and then being double punished by not confirming and getting a critical miss is somehow interesting and fun for the players? I would be pissed at that ruling and I know a lot of people who would agree. It's bad enough to get the possible crit and not reconfirm....The OP has already said his players like odd things on a one. At this point, it sounds like you're just applying the badwrongfun label.FH never called it badwrong fun, all he said is that he'd be pissed with such rule, and that may be the case for the OP's players as well.
He makes a good point. Why should the character be punished for rolling a nat 20? He would be better off rolling a 19. Critical hits are supposed to be moments when your character is awesome, not a chance to cut your own ehad.
He makes the point for him not for the OP's players whom the OP reports are reasonably fine with this sort of thing. At this point, continually chiming in with "well, I wouldn't like that" is pretty much threadcrapping.
Part of the problem is that it's possible to roll a 1 after a 20, but not a 20 after a 1.
Why not?
When I use critical fumble rules, I use them exactly the way critical hit rules work -- you have to roll to confirm them. In the case of fumbling, if your second roll would hit, you miss normally; if your second roll would still miss, then and only then would you fumble.
So a likelihood of rolling a 20 and then a 1 could happen as easily as rolling a 1 and then a 20.
I actually thought most people did it that way (if they opt to use critical fumbles at all), but perhaps I am wrong.
Mind, again I still would personally not make any confirm rolls do anything special in my games (save confirm a hit or miss), but if for some reason we were playing it that way, it would definitely work both ways.
(Then again, I always prefer things going both ways, but that's just me. ;) )
On a separate note, does anyone "explode" critical effects. I.e., if you roll a 20, and then another 20, do you keep going, adding additional multipliers each time?
I have both the Critical Hit deck and the Critical Fumble one... I don't force the rules on anyone, but each player is given a choice: They can choose to use the decks or not, and their choice only affects their own character: When you crit on a natural 20, you can pick a card from the Crit Hit deck (in addition to the extra daamge), but if you use this rule, when you roll a nat 1, you must also pick a card from the Crit Fumble deck.This way, whoever wants to use the rules can use it.. The ones who would rather not use them, do not use them. Fun for everyone.
Great idea. I also think that after a while, when the TWF gets hasted and has 8 attacks or something insane and realizes he now is starring in the Three Stooges, he may well reconsider.
I mean, when you only have a single attack, it's not too bad.
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He makes the point for him not for the OP's players whom the OP reports are reasonably fine with this sort of thing. At this point, continually chiming in with "well, I wouldn't like that" is pretty much threadcrapping.
Not really. The OP asked for advice and suggestion. I gave mine "Don't do it" and then proceed to explain my reasons for thinking this way.
Threadcrapping would be if I said something like "Your rules are stupid! Screw you!" and left without giving any advice or explanation whatsoever.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with politely criticizing and idea and explaining why you don't like it.
Don't be so defensive. No one is accusing the OP of having badwrong fun. We are sharing our opinions and the reasoning for them. Nothing else.
I get that some games enjoy critical fumbles, but if an GM applied a critical fumble on my character on a crit confirm roll I would be really annoyed. Use it on normal skill, save, attack rolls if you must, but not on a roll that only happens if a character does well.
Part of the problem is that it's possible to roll a 1 after a 20, but not a 20 after a 1.
Well, it could be. One if my groups (the one I play with the most) uses the crit and fumble decks. We confirm fumbles just like we confirm crits, meaning that you roll again. If you still miss, its a fumble. If you hit in the confirmation, then its not a fumble. Thus, its easier for bad things to happen vs tough opponents, but rarely happens against weak ones.
EDIT: Deathquaker, that same group does that, though we don't call it "exploding". It's a rare event when someone confirms a crit with another crit, but when it happens, it is exciting for the whole table.
Just to chim in, my players actually wanted me to buy the crit and fumbles deck. We do roll to confirm on natural 1s as well, so they do get to roll a 20 after a 1.
I preciate the suggestions and some very good ideas. As to why I was asking advice is because it seems my players want this because they did look disappointed when nothing actually happened when the roll of the thread happened, so thats why ibwas asking suggestions of what to do. I have asked my grp and they did state they did not like the idea of critical misses, they do feel there should be something but its my game when I asked on how we should treat that certain roll. We already have rolls for natural 1s in that they have to confirm it. To pull from the fumble deck u have to roll 2 1s in a row and if u roll and succeed u merely miss and if u rolled a 20, u actually do pull something out ur hindend and hit the target.Usually they come up with these scenarios and so far its worked so ive given the benefit of the doubt. Crits they get to choose after seeing the card if they wanna. And if they roll 2 20s in a row they do max frit dmg they can do plus the stuff on the card.
But when it came to the 20 then a 1, basically much head scratching. They all agreed something special needs to happen but didnt know what.
Now I agree if my group was hardcore dungeon explorers or pressed for time or etc etc, the ruling may not go over well and thats fine. Its so the players can have fun and if it aint then it wont be used. This group however does want something for it though hence the asking for suggestions :-)
He makes the point for him not for the OP's players whom the OP reports are reasonably fine with this sort of thing. At this point, continually chiming in with "well, I wouldn't like that" is pretty much threadcrapping.and rolling a 20 to hit and then being double punished by not confirming and getting a critical miss is somehow interesting and fun for the players? I would be pissed at that ruling and I know a lot of people who would agree. It's bad enough to get the possible crit and not reconfirm....The OP has already said his players like odd things on a one. At this point, it sounds like you're just applying the badwrongfun label.FH never called it badwrong fun, all he said is that he'd be pissed with such rule, and that may be the case for the OP's players as well.
He makes a good point. Why should the character be punished for rolling a nat 20? He would be better off rolling a 19. Critical hits are supposed to be moments when your character is awesome, not a chance to cut your own ehad.
I see it more like an intervention.
If you really, really want to add a fumble after a nat 20, here is my suggestion:
Make the player take two cards. 1 from the Crit deck and another one from the Fumble deck. The enemy suffers the effect of the Crit card and your player suffers the effect of the Fumble card...
That'd be as zany as an attack can be...
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An intervention to prevent him from making the game fun for his players?
I see it more like an intervention.
To quote Mark Twain "Fun? Yes, but of a mild sort."